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Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game
- Thread starter Gandhi Jam
- Start date
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Yeah, I realized that last night but didn't feel like editing it out, but now it begs the question of whether or not shorthop confusion could work. By that I don't mean it working to counter a shielded fair, but if there are ways to take advantage of players with aerial confusion. Perhaps it could work as a tech chase on a character that is already on a platform? It would be amusing if you could chain together several confusions once a person is on a platform causing them to flop around like a fish on land. It has a pretty sick hitbox, so it'd be nice to find a proper use for it outside of FoD. Hell, I never use this move so I don't even remember if it does damage, but I imagine it does.
Try doing dtilts from a max range wavedash, a la Taj. It goes farther and catches them more off guard more often. It's odd cause I never used wavedash > dtilt in the matchup due to Marth being able to CC > dtilt, but after the discussion on it I began trying it out, and I have found that using it sparingly when Marth is dash dancing is really damn good. As long as that isn't your only approach they won't likely go for shield grab in neutral.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
But confusion gives you that bump upwards and forwards that compensates for that, unless you had already used it. It's the entire reason that the BF glitch can happen the way it does.
Not saying that it makes the idea plausible or anything.
I really wish I brought my stuff in today, cause I'd totally test this on my laptop during lunch.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Ahhh, I see. The animation is so long that they won't collide with the platform unless you were really high up. Ok, I get it now.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If people are just spamming shield grab when you wavedash in, you can just wavedash toward them but space outside of their shield grab range and get a free punish when they whiff grab.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I don't like the direction that the thread is going in if people are only seeking answers that fulfill some sort of criteria that it is "the answer" to a particular situation, as if that sort of thing exists in such a complex game. Something one should always remember:
We are playing Super Smash Bros, not Super Theory Bros.
By that I don't mean that theory isn't important, it damn well is and I've learned so much through it, but it's not the only thing to consider. Mental states, yours and your opponent's, are very important things to consider as well, and to address them isn't embracing randomness or hard reads, but rather it is necessary to be able to take advantage of as many openings and patterns as you can. So yeah, on paper a reverse SBC might be a bad idea against Fox at any point in time, even if you knock them under a platform near the edge, but I've learned through playing several Fox players of varying skill, from far worse to far better than me, that it does indeed work. If it doesn't, then that incoming bair (which likely won't have a big followup) tells me a lot more about my opponent than I would know if I tried to take the safest option.
Also, the whole situation with the theory that Marth *can* shield grab if you wavedash > dtilt suddenly makes wavedash > dtilt bad is silly. It's not bad at all. If you are having problems with that, it's because your opponent either punishes everything the same way (which is severely punishable), or you are being predictable with your approach. This isn't the fault of Mewtwo, this is the fault of the player using him.
I truly believe that a lot of what people believe make Mewtwo bad is people conflating bad play or decisions of the players with Mewtwo him/herself. I say that cause even the best we have to offer right now is coming from a character that is so unexplored compared to the rest of the cast. The more I discover with Mewtwo, the more tools I have to combat the weaknesses Mewtwo has and cover them up better. I'm not really that great of a player in the grand scheme of things, and I guarantee that pretty much everyone in this thread could imitate my success if not attain more for themselves if they simply stopped assuming that their character was at fault for most of their problems.
To further put this in perspective, just like Mewtwo, Marth has similar issues with his dtilt, in that an over-reliance on using it as an approach/poke leads to it being punished by aerials. This doesn't make Marth a bad character, nor does it make his dtilt a bad move. If you spot a Marth player making this mistake you can punish it yourself. Mewtwo, specifically, can punish dtilt with DJC fair, which I do in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc-mwXsKr0I
This is a video against me and a novice Marth online. I punish that plus all kinds of crap all the time in different ways. While better Marth's definitely won't make all of these mistakes, they still make a lot of similar, punishable, mistakes, even if they are harder to punish. I'm learning more and more that playing Mewtwo well is about knowing exactly what your options are, and what is safe and/or possible, and on top of that you have to have the fearlessness to go for it even if it is a very small opening.
We are playing Super Smash Bros, not Super Theory Bros.
By that I don't mean that theory isn't important, it damn well is and I've learned so much through it, but it's not the only thing to consider. Mental states, yours and your opponent's, are very important things to consider as well, and to address them isn't embracing randomness or hard reads, but rather it is necessary to be able to take advantage of as many openings and patterns as you can. So yeah, on paper a reverse SBC might be a bad idea against Fox at any point in time, even if you knock them under a platform near the edge, but I've learned through playing several Fox players of varying skill, from far worse to far better than me, that it does indeed work. If it doesn't, then that incoming bair (which likely won't have a big followup) tells me a lot more about my opponent than I would know if I tried to take the safest option.
Also, the whole situation with the theory that Marth *can* shield grab if you wavedash > dtilt suddenly makes wavedash > dtilt bad is silly. It's not bad at all. If you are having problems with that, it's because your opponent either punishes everything the same way (which is severely punishable), or you are being predictable with your approach. This isn't the fault of Mewtwo, this is the fault of the player using him.
I truly believe that a lot of what people believe make Mewtwo bad is people conflating bad play or decisions of the players with Mewtwo him/herself. I say that cause even the best we have to offer right now is coming from a character that is so unexplored compared to the rest of the cast. The more I discover with Mewtwo, the more tools I have to combat the weaknesses Mewtwo has and cover them up better. I'm not really that great of a player in the grand scheme of things, and I guarantee that pretty much everyone in this thread could imitate my success if not attain more for themselves if they simply stopped assuming that their character was at fault for most of their problems.
To further put this in perspective, just like Mewtwo, Marth has similar issues with his dtilt, in that an over-reliance on using it as an approach/poke leads to it being punished by aerials. This doesn't make Marth a bad character, nor does it make his dtilt a bad move. If you spot a Marth player making this mistake you can punish it yourself. Mewtwo, specifically, can punish dtilt with DJC fair, which I do in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc-mwXsKr0I
This is a video against me and a novice Marth online. I punish that plus all kinds of crap all the time in different ways. While better Marth's definitely won't make all of these mistakes, they still make a lot of similar, punishable, mistakes, even if they are harder to punish. I'm learning more and more that playing Mewtwo well is about knowing exactly what your options are, and what is safe and/or possible, and on top of that you have to have the fearlessness to go for it even if it is a very small opening.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
In the middle of a dash dance (if you exclude the 1 frame pivot leniency) there are two states, dashing toward and away. I think that MookieRah is on to something with the f-air being a good way to out-prioritize less disjointed moves like Fox's nair. In general, Mewtwo's problems in neutral largely stem from the lack of disjoint on most of our moves. When dashing toward the opponent you have the option to shield stop and then SH fair so as to stuff non-disjointed moves.
When dashing away, Mewtwo is considerably more limited, as he does not have access to fair. The back hitbox of nair is not disjointed because of Mewtwo's tail, so that leaves very little as far as aerials are concerned. I've been looking into shield stop SH dair for catching people whiffing moves to your dash away, and this seems good depending on the opponent's percent, as you can convert a dair into follow ups usually. Another option is to use SBC, since the charge happens behind Mewtwo.
Tell me what you guys think of these aerial options. I think they could be effective in some matchups when combined with other good neutral options like SH baby shadow ball toss, dash dance grab and wavedash d-tilt.
When dashing away, Mewtwo is considerably more limited, as he does not have access to fair. The back hitbox of nair is not disjointed because of Mewtwo's tail, so that leaves very little as far as aerials are concerned. I've been looking into shield stop SH dair for catching people whiffing moves to your dash away, and this seems good depending on the opponent's percent, as you can convert a dair into follow ups usually. Another option is to use SBC, since the charge happens behind Mewtwo.
Tell me what you guys think of these aerial options. I think they could be effective in some matchups when combined with other good neutral options like SH baby shadow ball toss, dash dance grab and wavedash d-tilt.
mookie i think you really overreacted to an misunderstood the language being used on the forum here
also anyone who thinks they're going to find textbook hax$ answers to every situation as mewtwo are being dumbo
that doesn't mean mewtwo cant get top 32 at a super major
however I don't believe it is a worthwhile goal to try to be a top player playing mewtwo
the goal has to be playing mewtwo well, because the fact is that it is just easier to play other characters
also anyone who thinks they're going to find textbook hax$ answers to every situation as mewtwo are being dumbo
that doesn't mean mewtwo cant get top 32 at a super major
however I don't believe it is a worthwhile goal to try to be a top player playing mewtwo
the goal has to be playing mewtwo well, because the fact is that it is just easier to play other characters
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Well, there are textbook answers to every option. That's why the game is worth playing, because there's always counterplay.
As for your last comment: sometimes the easiest things aren't the most worthwhile or rewarding.
As for your last comment: sometimes the easiest things aren't the most worthwhile or rewarding.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
SuperShus
A few things to clarify my position a bit more:
I don't think Mewtwo is top tier. If I had to put him on the tier list of what I expect from him he'd be in the same area as Pika, Ganon, and Yoshi wherabouts. I don't have any delusions that he is super good, but I do think he is completely viable.
I also think that most people in these forums, and in general most who play Mewtwo, play with the assumption that he is kinda crap. Taj did this too, as it's so apparent in his philosophy thread. This mentality is crippling, because if you truly feel this way you won't be able to take the character to the max, because it is much easier to make excuses than to seek answers. For example, if you see any youtube videos of a novice Fox players getting beaten, you don't see people in the comments saying that Fox is garbage, but that is pretty much always the case for Mewtwo. There is so much confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecies going on that it's impossible to draw accurate data. So in lieu of accurate data I am opting to assume that Mewtwo doesn't suck, and when I get crushed by my opponents I don't assume the problem is Mewtwo. Instead I think "Damn, I gotta Mewtwo even harder to beat this guy".
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Another note, difficulty != bad. It may be more difficult to play Mewtwo, but if he actually has answers that are equal to or better than other good characters then that means he is still good, and this is how I see a lot of things with Mewtwo right now. His best options require a lot of tech and thought to make use of. Punishing Marth dtilt is a great example, as it's way easier for other characters to punish it, like Fox nair. That said, a Mewtwo fair is generally far more rewarding of a punish than what most characters can dish out, as on low percents it sets up for juggling and at high percents it can kill. Hell, Mewtwo's combo game requires some crazy tech, trained reactions, and reads to make the most out of it, but Taj and Zoma have shown that it can lead to zero to deaths on many characters in the game. That's never stopped Falcon players though, and 20GX is really showing what he's capable of.
Shiek is a great example of the opposite, in which all of her kit is super easy by comparison. It's why the M2 vs Sheik matchup is so frustrating to me right now, cause I'm not quite at the tech level required to truly punish her stuff, but she can just sorta face roll the controller. The question is, at what point does Sheik's ability to mess up Mewtwo peak, and does Mewtwo's ability to deal with Sheik reach an equal or possibly higher level given that the Mewtwo player has the ability to take advantage of it? We don't know that answer, because nobody has pushed Mewtwo far enough to match the current meta.
Also, my goal isn't to be the best Melee player ever. I'm a dad, and I have a hard time being able to attend tournaments in my own damn town :-P. My goal is to show as many people as possible that Mewtwo isn't bad. My goal is to show that it *might* be a worthwhile goal to be a top player playing Mewtwo.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I'm not overlooking his flaws though. I'm very aware them, and my efforts are going towards finding ways to cover them. I'm just not assuming Mewtwo is bad.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If you look at Mewtwo's core tools: good recovery, good grab game, useful projectile, good combo starters (d-tilt, fair, dair), long wavedash, he has a lot going for him. It's the subtle things that create the struggle for him: poor disjoints on most moves, big hurtbox, light weight. If we can find a way to minimize these problems, it will go a long way toward making Mewtwo a solid character.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
So I'm going to introduce a new term here: "pursuit fair". This isn't anything new, and honestly I've been working on my execution of it for a while. I define it as such:
A DJC fair in which you sling shot forward and immediately run after the l-cancel. When done correctly it looks as if the fair doesn't even slow you down.
I think this should be something to talk about, cause due to the boost forward and fair's low lag, you don't lose a significant amount of speed doing it. That's great, cause you can basically place a fair for free, even if you don't intend/expect it to land. This is quite nifty in tech chase situations in which you don't expect your opponent to roll through you, as you can cover tech in place, no tech, and often times you are spaced so that you can hit your opponent with the tip of a run-canceled dtilt if they roll away from you.
EDIT: I think this is a core part of Mewtwo's offensive pressure, as he can near seamlessly combine his forward movement with an attack. No other character can really do this quite the same way.
Another thing I'm working on is moonwalk nairs, based on the idea that was brought up earlier about how a retreating nair's hitboxes are more likely to beat moves like Fox nair if you are going backward. It's also good in that you can reverse your forward momentum without turning around and opening up your tail hitbox.
A DJC fair in which you sling shot forward and immediately run after the l-cancel. When done correctly it looks as if the fair doesn't even slow you down.
I think this should be something to talk about, cause due to the boost forward and fair's low lag, you don't lose a significant amount of speed doing it. That's great, cause you can basically place a fair for free, even if you don't intend/expect it to land. This is quite nifty in tech chase situations in which you don't expect your opponent to roll through you, as you can cover tech in place, no tech, and often times you are spaced so that you can hit your opponent with the tip of a run-canceled dtilt if they roll away from you.
EDIT: I think this is a core part of Mewtwo's offensive pressure, as he can near seamlessly combine his forward movement with an attack. No other character can really do this quite the same way.
Another thing I'm working on is moonwalk nairs, based on the idea that was brought up earlier about how a retreating nair's hitboxes are more likely to beat moves like Fox nair if you are going backward. It's also good in that you can reverse your forward momentum without turning around and opening up your tail hitbox.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I wonder if it's possible to d-throw Fox, DJC fair to cover his tech in place, and still cover a tech roll? Maybe you can only cover a missed tech and tech roll?
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I was thinking you could just follow the tech roll with JC grab.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
That's what I'm saying. If you only cover missed tech (not tech in place), I think you can JC grab Fox. Falco's tech roll might go too far though.
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Robbie Erizo Blue Welch
Smash Rookie
Maining Mewtwo is going to be ****in tough but probably worth the respect.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Fox hits the ground before Mewtwo is actionable? But d-throw combos to d-tilt at mid percents... Maybe at zero it's a lot slower. I never thought of that.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
But even with away DI, you're actionable before Fox hits the ground right? It's just that it takes a while to close the distance.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I see. Maybe d-throw is just inferior to uthrow/bthrow in most situations. I might reserve it for only when I grab facing the ledge.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Yeah, I was beginning to think dthrow -> pursuit fair wasn't super great cause the 20XX fox would shine me out of it if I didn't have the perfect spacing, and the fact that I was actively trying to do a setup with dthrow -> pursuit fair yesterday and today in online matches and I don't think it ever really worked. You can't even hit characters fast enough to punish no techs, as I kept getting hit out of their getup attacks. Now that the frame data is in, it's time to go back to the drawing board.
The idea that dthrow is bad is hard to take in, cause it has been a pillar of my Mewtwo since the early days, but if it's dragging me down I gotta give it up.
Ok, time to learn teleport tricks on platforms! I wasn't sold on that as being necessary before, but considering that my tech chase with dthrow tech chase game doesn't work well enough on high level players and dthrow -> pursuit fair isn't a thing, I think going for a tech chase on a platform off of up throw is the best option.
EDIT:
Dthrow to downsmash to punish tech in place is still damn good and I get lots of kills off of it.
The idea that dthrow is bad is hard to take in, cause it has been a pillar of my Mewtwo since the early days, but if it's dragging me down I gotta give it up.
Ok, time to learn teleport tricks on platforms! I wasn't sold on that as being necessary before, but considering that my tech chase with dthrow tech chase game doesn't work well enough on high level players and dthrow -> pursuit fair isn't a thing, I think going for a tech chase on a platform off of up throw is the best option.
EDIT:
Dthrow to downsmash to punish tech in place is still damn good and I get lots of kills off of it.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Well the thing is, I pretty much don't dthrow anyone that isn't Fox, Falco, or Falcon because barring terribad DI it usually doesn't lead to anything. Against those three you can tech chase, but at higher level play it's more of a gamble to tech chase with grabs due to it's strict timing and having to borderline hard-read. Dtilt isn't reliable either because CC wrecks it :-(.
On the other hand back-throw, while not directly comboing, will definitely give you a positional advantage. A hidden bonus is that people often seem to act fairly predictably depending on percents. For example, Marth's are pretty complacent at low percents after backthrow, and will either double jump or forward B out of it, which gives you a free bair and a shot at a possible gimp (albeit not a good one so don't overextend!) I should probably try experimenting with it more against the 3 fast fallers to see how it stacks up, as I might be able to see at least similar performance than d-throw.
On the other hand back-throw, while not directly comboing, will definitely give you a positional advantage. A hidden bonus is that people often seem to act fairly predictably depending on percents. For example, Marth's are pretty complacent at low percents after backthrow, and will either double jump or forward B out of it, which gives you a free bair and a shot at a possible gimp (albeit not a good one so don't overextend!) I should probably try experimenting with it more against the 3 fast fallers to see how it stacks up, as I might be able to see at least similar performance than d-throw.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
That is the strong hitbox though, right? If they aren't DI'ing away and/or rolling away then that's an option, but otherwise strong hitbox dtilt is something that I rarely have the opportunity to use.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
That deserves like, all the likes. I'm gonna post this again, but formatted in a way that makes it easier to digest these numbers.
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Melee Mewtwo's Awesome Dtilt chart
Character - strong - medium - weak
Jigglypuff - 25% - 29% - 48%
Fox - 28% - 33% - 53%
Falco - 29% - 34% - 54%
Pikachu - 29% - 34% - 54%
Marth - 30% - 35% - 57%
Y. Link - 30% - 35% - 56%
Sheik - 31% - 36% - 58%
Peach - 31% - 36% - 58%
Luigi - 33% - 38% - 61%
(Dr.) Mario - 33% - 38% - 61%
Mario?
Falcon - 34% - 39% - 62%
Yoshi - 35% - 40% - 63%
Samus - 35% - 41% - 64%
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Some observations from this data.
1. Medium hit seems to break CC around 5% more on everyone, except for the super heavies like Samus and Yoshi (6%) and super lights like Jiggs(4%) (and probably Kirby and Pichu).
2. Weak hit seems to break CC at around slightly less than double % of the strong hit.
3. At 30% you break the CC of spacies and Marth and probably a decent chunk of the cast.
4. At 35% you break everyone's CC on a strong hit.
5. At 40% you break everyone but Yoshi's CC with a medium hit.
6. 60% beats most of the cast with a tip hit. 64% probably beats all of the cast.
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So if you remember these numbers: 30, 35, 40, 60, and 65 then you should be good. Those to me are easy touchstones to remember things by.
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Melee Mewtwo's Awesome Dtilt chart
Character - strong - medium - weak
Jigglypuff - 25% - 29% - 48%
Fox - 28% - 33% - 53%
Falco - 29% - 34% - 54%
Pikachu - 29% - 34% - 54%
Marth - 30% - 35% - 57%
Y. Link - 30% - 35% - 56%
Sheik - 31% - 36% - 58%
Peach - 31% - 36% - 58%
Luigi - 33% - 38% - 61%
(Dr.) Mario - 33% - 38% - 61%
Mario?
Falcon - 34% - 39% - 62%
Yoshi - 35% - 40% - 63%
Samus - 35% - 41% - 64%
--------------------------------------------------------
Some observations from this data.
1. Medium hit seems to break CC around 5% more on everyone, except for the super heavies like Samus and Yoshi (6%) and super lights like Jiggs(4%) (and probably Kirby and Pichu).
2. Weak hit seems to break CC at around slightly less than double % of the strong hit.
3. At 30% you break the CC of spacies and Marth and probably a decent chunk of the cast.
4. At 35% you break everyone's CC on a strong hit.
5. At 40% you break everyone but Yoshi's CC with a medium hit.
6. 60% beats most of the cast with a tip hit. 64% probably beats all of the cast.
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So if you remember these numbers: 30, 35, 40, 60, and 65 then you should be good. Those to me are easy touchstones to remember things by.
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MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Damnit Melee Mewtwo, where were you earlier today when I played a CF player that kept jabbing me out of tech chasing!?
EDIT:
Got to chance to play for about a half hour a little bit ago, and man, the feeling of knowing when dtilt will work is so damn freeing. It's easy to remember 30 for light chars, 35 for heavy, 40 for medium hits, and 60-65 for tip hits. Hell, for online matches you can literally have a chart next to you and simply take note of the opponent and remember in match their percentages if you want exact numbers.
My Full Dtilt Chart in Weight Brackets based on Melee Mewtwo's chart:
Super Heavies: 36-34, 42-40, 65-63 (Estimate)
Bowser(117) | DK (114) | Samus(110) | Ganon(109) | Yoshi(108)
Heavies: 34% | 39% | 62% (MM)
Falcon, Link (104)
------ 35-ish, 40-ish, 65-ish
The Marios: 33, 38, 61 (MM)
Mario, Doc, Luigi (100)
Middle: 33, 37-36, 60-58 (Ness and ICs = Estimate)
Ness(94) | Peach, Shiek, Zelda (90) | ICs(88)
----- 30+, 35+, 60-60+
Heavy Lights: 30, 35, 57 (NTSC Marth = MM)
Marth NTSC(87) | Marth PAL, Mewtwo, Young Link (85)
Medium Lights: 29-28, 34-33, 54-53 (Kirby = Estimate)
Pika, Falco (80) | Fox(75) | Kirby(70)
----- 30, 35, almost 60
Light: 25, 29, 48 (MM)
Jiggs, G&W (60)
Super Light: 24, 28, 47 (Estimate)
Pichu(55)
------ 25-, 30-, 50-
Notes:
Characters are listed in order of heaviest to lightest and the weights are displayed beside the character or groups of characters who share the same weight.
MM denotes Melee Mewtwo's earlier chart. Estimate is simply my close approximation based on Melee weight values as compared to Melee Mewtwo's earlier chart.
EDIT:
Got to chance to play for about a half hour a little bit ago, and man, the feeling of knowing when dtilt will work is so damn freeing. It's easy to remember 30 for light chars, 35 for heavy, 40 for medium hits, and 60-65 for tip hits. Hell, for online matches you can literally have a chart next to you and simply take note of the opponent and remember in match their percentages if you want exact numbers.
My Full Dtilt Chart in Weight Brackets based on Melee Mewtwo's chart:
Super Heavies: 36-34, 42-40, 65-63 (Estimate)
Bowser(117) | DK (114) | Samus(110) | Ganon(109) | Yoshi(108)
Heavies: 34% | 39% | 62% (MM)
Falcon, Link (104)
------ 35-ish, 40-ish, 65-ish
The Marios: 33, 38, 61 (MM)
Mario, Doc, Luigi (100)
Middle: 33, 37-36, 60-58 (Ness and ICs = Estimate)
Ness(94) | Peach, Shiek, Zelda (90) | ICs(88)
----- 30+, 35+, 60-60+
Heavy Lights: 30, 35, 57 (NTSC Marth = MM)
Marth NTSC(87) | Marth PAL, Mewtwo, Young Link (85)
Medium Lights: 29-28, 34-33, 54-53 (Kirby = Estimate)
Pika, Falco (80) | Fox(75) | Kirby(70)
----- 30, 35, almost 60
Light: 25, 29, 48 (MM)
Jiggs, G&W (60)
Super Light: 24, 28, 47 (Estimate)
Pichu(55)
------ 25-, 30-, 50-
Notes:
Characters are listed in order of heaviest to lightest and the weights are displayed beside the character or groups of characters who share the same weight.
MM denotes Melee Mewtwo's earlier chart. Estimate is simply my close approximation based on Melee weight values as compared to Melee Mewtwo's earlier chart.
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