Advancing the Mewtwo Meta Game

[ChivalRuse]

Knocking down a regular crouch cancel is usually way more valuable than ASDI down.

 

[MookieRah]

So just a bit of quick testing on an idea I had a few weeks back, but it seems like if you do a full hop confusion at close to or at the apex of the jump against an opponent on a platform they will still be flopping around and potentially miss the tech. That said, they are likely actionable out of the confusion before they hit the ground and they have time to tech it, so I don't expect it to be worthwhile. I might try playing around with this just to see how things play out in the real world.

On another note: I derped in a match against a Marth last night in which I hopped off and managed to bair him out of his upB midway through and it ended up stage spiking him. Another bit of something that likely isn't worthwhile, but hey, it's something to think about.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

I'll edit this later to go into more detail, but for the most part I agree with you. Mewtwo doesn't really have an answer to basic aerial approaches like a lot of the cast has, and while he is capable of punishing them, to do so pretty much requires a read.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

Well it's pretty much what you said, more or less. If you look at good Mewtwo play, it's focused around his ground game (see Taj's Mewtwo) and getting your opponent to play that game. The thing is, if they know to ignore that, there isn't too much that Mewtwo can do that isn't a read and commitment.

I posted a lot about countering or interrupting opponents' aerials with fair. It's awesome, badass, and worthwhile, but it's still something that only works on a solid read. There are no easy, dial it in options that Mewtwo can exploit to beat even the most basic of aerial approaches. His disjoints are pretty bad, meaning that will often outright lose or trade in exchanges if the spacing isn't perfect. For instance, Peach's dash attack is a very good tool for dissuading aerial offense. All Mewtwo has in these situations is to either avoid it, shield grab (relies on your opponent to make a mistake), or go for a hard read.

What it boils down to is that you end up losing a lot in neutral, even to some very basic setups that wouldn't work on the other viable cast. A lot of that has to do with the fact that it's not enough that you have to predict their approach, but you have to pretty much predict it with such precision that you don't trade or mistime it.

That isn't to say that Mewtwo still isn't potentially quite good/viable, though. The thing is that you can do a really good job of messing up your opponent in neutral, even against high level players. My current Fox strategy is simply to play defensively against their nair approaches to get a feel for how they play. I start going for fair counters when I think I have a read, and when I don't I try to mess up their approach by running into it early and shielding to score a shield grab. The goal with this is to get them to try and use their nair very delayed (avoid shield grab, beat my fair) or in a cross-up situation. Once they make that adaption, I then start to catch them preemptively with nair. If I play my cards right, it might convince the Fox to play a little more honestly, which allows me to work my d-tilt game more.

In the end, that's still a bluff. I think the only way to make it work with Mewtwo is that when you do punish an aerial with a fair you have the combo game to really make it hurt, to the point that it's not much of a trade to lose neutral as often. The technical ability and decision making necessary to pull that off is off the charts and would make the most hardened CF players blush, but it's still very possible as Taj and Zoma both pull off zero to deaths and near zero to deaths all the time.

 

[MookieRah]

New trick, reverse djc in place when you expect them to approach (usually when you know they want to press the attack if you are by the edge). Works well against Falcons. It's hilarious and effective xD.

Also, why are these forums so dead now?

 

[BeldorTN]

New trick, reverse djc in place when you expect them to approach (usually when you know they want to press the attack if you are by the edge). Works well against Falcons. It's hilarious and effective xD.

Also, why are these forums so dead now?

I assume you're talking about reverse sbc? I can definitely see it working as a counter to nair approaches, bair approaches and knees, but I would have to check it in game to verify. The only issue I can see is Falcons dtilt, which, if I'm not mistaken, can hit you below the SB hit box.
Or did you mean djc bair? I would think that it works if you get the read, but I think it puts you in the awkward situation of being one dash dance rotation away from getting kneed in your face (or the back of your head, so to speak). Correct me if I'm wrong here, tho.


I would think people have been busy. I didn't get to do much aside from tech drills and combo practice against 20XX AI. Work isn't too kind with me right now, but I'll see I get to play against people on Thursday. Will post about my experiences then.

 

[Sieghart]

Also, why are these forums so dead now?

I've already got a pretty good idea of what I have to work on so there's not much for me to say until I get better. I don't know about everyone else.

 

[Swagic]

Ganon forums aren't dead. But actually, it's because people for some reason decided they didn't like this site and moved other places. Or stopped playing certain characters.

 

[SuperShus]

for me, I realized that I need to just play more people and practice more and there isn't much the forums can do at this point

 

[MookieRah]

I assume you're talking about reverse sbc? I can definitely see it working as a counter to nair approaches, bair approaches and knees, but I would have to check it in game to verify. The only issue I can see is Falcons dtilt, which, if I'm not mistaken, can hit you below the SB hit box.

I meant jumping approaches, sorry, should have specified more. Pretty much Falcons will space it so their hitboxes cover all of the ledge area so you can't really run from it, and he flies so far with hitboxes out that sometimes trying to move forward will still get you hit. I used to try to do jump forward reverse SBC and that never worked, but I realized yesterday it didn't work because Falcon covers so much ground and you get hit before SBC's hitbox is out. Jumping straight up, or barely forward with SBC will work though, as the hitbox is out right in time to catch the flying Falcon.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

I haven't played much Melee recently since the summer started. Everybody's away on vacation. And I don't really travel anymore.

 

[BeldorTN]

Have been playing against actual humans today, but sadly I can't really say that there's anything new that I could talk about.

Bair -> Nair gimping was absolutely godly against low Falco recoveries, tho. If they DI away from the stage, they're dead, if they DI towards the stage, you can snatch the ledge with DJ -> Teleport as his Firebird takes ages until he actually gets to travel. If you're somewhat consistent with your inputs (Start up Nair when he's to your left / Always DI with him so you "trap" him for a longer time / Sweet spot your Teleport), you're always faster than he is.

Fox is a lot tighter in terms of timing, and therefore riskier, as Firefox doesn't take long to develop a hit box, but it's still doable.

Can't stress enough how valuable Teleports were for me. Yes, if they know where you're going it's kinda slow, but that's literally half of the "gimmick" that is this move: They can't see you. And you should abuse that and remain as unpredictable as possible. I more than once got my opponents frustrated with how quickly you're able to act after a NIL Teleport (or just a non-grounded Teleport) as they were simply too slow to punish it.


I really, really need to work on my neutral game. I felt like a punching bag from time to time and I was way too slow with my execution. Chain grabs, punishes and gimps were ok, tho.


Also, not really something new, but holy ****, M2s grab hit box is wonky. You can quite literally grab people from behind you but you barely have any disjoint in front of you. Something tells me that this was NOT intended by the devs and M2 was supposed to have a much better grab range, but they somehow misplaced the hit box.

 

[ramz zeus]

Have been playing against actual humans today, but sadly I can't really say that there's anything new that I could talk about.

Bair -> Nair gimping was absolutely godly against low Falco recoveries, tho. If they DI away from the stage, they're dead, if they DI towards the stage, you can snatch the ledge with DJ -> Teleport as his Firebird takes ages until he actually gets to travel. If you're somewhat consistent with your inputs (Start up Nair when he's to your left / Always DI with him so you "trap" him for a longer time / Sweet spot your Teleport), you're always faster than he is.

Fox is a lot tighter in terms of timing, and therefore riskier, as Firefox doesn't take long to develop a hit box, but it's still doable.

Can't stress enough how valuable Teleports were for me. Yes, if they know where you're going it's kinda slow, but that's literally half of the "gimmick" that is this move: They can't see you. And you should abuse that and remain as unpredictable as possible. I more than once got my opponents frustrated with how quickly you're able to act after a NIL Teleport (or just a non-grounded Teleport) as they were simply too slow to punish it.


I really, really need to work on my neutral game. I felt like a punching bag from time to time and I was way too slow with my execution. Chain grabs, punishes and gimps were ok, tho.


Also, not really something new, but holy ****, M2s grab hit box is wonky. You can quite literally grab people from behind you but you barely have any disjoint in front of you. Something tells me that this was NOT intended by the devs and M2 was supposed to have a much better grab range, but they somehow misplaced the hit box.

lol sorry i dont have time to go threw all the replies but do you have any advice vs marth im starting to side main mewtwo because he is fun what are the things you want to do/ avoid in the match up

 

[BeldorTN]

lol sorry i dont have time to go threw all the replies but do you have any advice vs marth im starting to side main mewtwo because he is fun what are the things you want to do/ avoid in the match up

From post #597 on you have a very constructive discussion about the Marth match up.

 

[ramz zeus]

From post #597 on you have a very constructive discussion about the Marth match up.

thanks

 

[ramz zeus]

From post #597 on you have a very constructive discussion about the Marth match up.

can you also give me the things most important to practice with mewtwo?

 

[BeldorTN]

can you also give me the things most important to practice with mewtwo?

Flawless wavedashes and being able to fully control their length is essential for your movement.
DJC is the most obvious tech to know.
Ledge canceled Teleport is also useful. Teleport in general is useful.
Being savvy with pivots is also a huge help.
Learn how M2 plays in the air. M2s gimp game is incredibly strong against many characters, so be aware of your possibilities.
Learn to use your Shadow Ball properly. Shadow Ball Cancels, Baby Ball spam and when to use a fully charged one are important.

Those are the basics of the basics and imo a good starting point. Don't be disappointed if you don't make much progress in the beginning. M2 has a very steep learning curve as an unintuitive and fairly technical character with many shortcomings. And as always: The best way to get better is to get as much practice against people as possible.

There's also a sticky on this topic (beginner tips). You should read it.

 

[ramz zeus]

Flawless wavedashes and being able to fully control their length is essential for your movement.
DJC is the most obvious tech to know.
Ledge canceled Teleport is also useful. Teleport in general is useful.
Being savvy with pivots is also a huge help.
Learn how M2 plays in the air. M2s gimp game is incredibly strong against many characters, so be aware of your possibilities.
Learn to use your Shadow Ball properly. Shadow Ball Cancels, Baby Ball spam and when to use a fully charged one are important.

Those are the basics of the basics and imo a good starting point. Don't be disappointed if you don't make much progress in the beginning. M2 has a very steep learning curve as an unintuitive and fairly technical character with many shortcomings. And as always: The best way to get better is to get as much practice against people as possible.

There's also a sticky on this topic (beginner tips). You should read it.

thanks man did you ever talk about the link matchup?

 

[MookieRah]

Is there anyone here that can map out where you should DI against Falcon? @Melee Mewtwo , do you have any ideas? I mean, I know there are plenty of things that are legit guaranteed (assuming no fault on the Falcon's part) but just in general I have no idea how I should go about it, as most of what I try doesn't seem to work very well. I know there has got to be at least an optimal way to do it.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[BeldorTN]

Is there anyone here that can map out where you should DI against Falcon? @Melee Mewtwo , do you have any ideas? I mean, I know there are plenty of things that are legit guaranteed (assuming no fault on the Falcon's part) but just in general I have no idea how I should go about it, as most of what I try doesn't seem to work very well. I know there has got to be at least an optimal way to do it.

As you said, the first few hits are pretty much guaranteed as long as the Falcon plays it right. When I'm higher than ~65% I tend to DI up + away from him to to limit his combos to Uairs and to prevent getting kneed (Knee usually means instant RIP at this %). There's a really weird dynamic between Falcon and M2, as Falcon struggles to combo M2 at high% because you can DI out of just about anything he tries to hit you with.

EDIT: Also, this is probably a stupid question, but I honestly don't know it: Can Shadow Ball charge prevent Falco lasers from hitting you? I honestly never tried and yesterday I really struggled against a Falco because of the laser spam.

 

[MookieRah]

BeldorTN
Up and away will get you kneed too. Just look at my latest video in my dump thread, I was DIing up and away by instinct a lot and it got me killed. Granted, I'm sure at times it prevented a knee too, but my point is that DI'ing to prevent a death against Falcon is a very complex interaction, and it's HEAVILY in Falcon's favor as he has the initiative.

Nope, shadowball charge can't prevent lasers from hitting you. They don't have a hitbox. They also don't affect arrows, needles, and if anything cause bombs to explode early. I think it can protect you from a boomerang, but only if it's right about to turn around back to Link. I'm not sure what properties are on the boomerang, but this is just going off of memories.

@Melee Mewtwo
Can up smash stuff a Marth standing grab? I want a tool to limit Marth's ground game. I've been playing against much higher calibur Marth players and I struggle in the matchup due to not being able to thwart Marth's neutral (which I shouldn't) but it's compounded by the fact that I am also unable to convert off of anything because I have to put myself at risk to do so.

 

[BeldorTN]

BeldorTN
Up and away will get you kneed too. Just look at my latest video in my dump thread, I was DIing up and away by instinct a lot and it got me killed. Granted, I'm sure at times it prevented a knee too, but my point is that DI'ing to prevent a death against Falcon is a very complex interaction, and it's HEAVILY in Falcon's favor as he has the initiative.

Nope, shadowball charge can't prevent lasers from hitting you. They don't have a hitbox. They also don't affect arrows, needles, and if anything cause bombs to explode early. I think it can protect you from a boomerang, but only if it's right about to turn around back to Link. I'm not sure what properties are on the boomerang, but this is just going off of memories.

Huh, that's too bad. I was pretty successful with DIing up/away so far, but seems like it's because of the lack of match up knowledge of my opponents. I guess it's mainly situational then. I could try to use up/towards him more next week, tho. Will report how it goes.


Ugh, annoying. Seems like I have to get back at my power shield practice. I kinda just retreated to the ledge yesterday, which obviously is far from optimal as I freely give up neutral, but he really had me locked down completely and was free to pressure my already damaged shield after approaching (which obviously didn't go too well for me) when I tried to remain on stage.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

Grab should trump usmash in just about every situation. Why wouldn't you just dtilt, though? You can also DI straight down, btw, to deny any real reward off of grab beyond very low percents.

If they aren't at around 30% they could just CC into dtilt, which is bad for me. Holding down on DI doesn't cut it because the point of a forward throw is generally to gain stage advantage and not to combo, and I still have to deal with him on wake up because he has the initiative. Also having the ledge behind me makes it very hard to contest his approaches, and generally leads to more percent or possibly even a stock if I make a big mistake anywhere in the process of getting back to neutral.

I am searching for an answer that rewards me for guessing correctly (even at low percents), but so far I'm coming up empty handed. Early % neutral versus Marth is just a nightmare.

I'd also be up for some people to throw in their theory gaming thoughts on a followup to a tipped dtilt (not CCed) as I will often clip Marth's toes but feel as if I can't do anything off of it. I know it will never combo, but thoughts as to how to take advantage of the situation in order to open Marth up or cause him to make a mistake are appreciated.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

http://ikneedata.com/calculator

You can use this app to calculate how to DI against any move in any matchup fyi

 

[MookieRah]

SuperShus
Wow. Thanks for the link. This is amazing!

 

[BeldorTN]

http://ikneedata.com/calculator

You can use this app to calculate how to DI against any move in any matchup fyi

Now THIS is amazing.

Thanks for the hint!

 

[SuperShus]

btw, in case any new players are going through the beginning of this thread, you need a 5 frame reaction time to do mewtwo's dthrow techchase

also known as it's impossible, so just ignore that lmao

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[SuperShus]

its not 15, if it was 15 it would be a viable thing to do which is isn't

sheik is like 12-14 frames

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[ChivalRuse]

DJC fairing missed techs/tech-in place is so satisfying for some reason.

 

[Sieghart]

DJC fairing missed techs/tech-in place is so satisfying for some reason.

Try powershield dsmashing getup attack. Makes me feel all tingly.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[CnB | Chandy]

In the discord we discussed the best ways for M2 to quickly get to ledge from various distance and we arrived at three possibilities that were all comparable in speed but varied in terms of execution difficulty and other factors. In all three gfys M2 starts from the same position. To my knowledge each sequence is performed as efficiently as possible to receive the most accurate results in a speed comparison.

Ledgecancel Teleport SUNC: Max swag, second fastest method at long distance, biggest risk of SDing
https://gfycat.com/BlindRecentDuckbillcat

Dash Perfect Wavedash SUNC: Kinda cool because of SUNC, slowest of the three but easiest to perform because just one wavedash and no tricky pivot required, slight risk of SDing if SUNC is performed incorrectly.
https://gfycat.com/FastExcellentGraywolf

Dash Pivot Wavedash Fastfall: Pivot wavedash is swag, slightly faster than Ledge Cancel Teleport SUNC but requires a tough pivot input and two perfect wavedashes to be as fast as possible, least chance of SDing because no teleport tech is involved.
https://gfycat.com/ShockingWatchfulKentrosaurus

I didn't add up the frames exactly but any of yall are welcome to. Each sequence begins with a dash and ends with grabbing ledge. I included the animation status indicator in each gfy, so if you just add together the elapsed frames of every animation from the start of the first "dash" to the first frame of "cliffcatch" you'll get the exact numbers. I'd be interested to see them.