Advanced Edgeguard

[Sago]

Its nothing great but i dont know if anyone else realy noticed it or not so i thought i would bring it to attention...some minor application discuss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsPY39M4yqI
Orly found this before me unknowingly to me so props :D

 

[J4pu]

I don't play samus but I come here somewhat often, I was pretty impressed
never seen that before.

 

[Aran]

I think there was a vid a week or two ago about it, but I have yet to implement it into my game or see it implemented as of yet. Seems like it could be useful as a surprise edgeguard every once in a while when an opponent thinks you're coming out for a spike, but otherwise I think it takes too long to set up the RAR-SHZ-Air. Thanks for bringing it back to our attention though!

 

[Hive]

I think Dryn (or was it 0rly) discovered this awhile back, but this is the first vid and mention of it I've seen since ^^
good work ^^

 

[Jasona]

that will definitely improve my edge game. now if only someone could find a way to use the zair to get back on the stage, from a ledge grab, faster than a ledge hop. instant ledge hog and an instant means of refreshing the number of zair grabs. samus would be tweak'd

 

[Aran]

Yeah, that would be pretty dang cool if we had an instant return to stage.

 

[Sago]

i found this on accident like 2 months ago on green greens and have been messing around with it just got bored enough to make a video last night though

 

[KingChaos]

This is pretty cool i wanna practice trying to utilze this very sexi xD.Samus falls slow to leg hug i noticed sometimes so maybe the would speed it up eh probably not really.

 

[0RLY]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5285748&postcount=83

HAY GUYS! I found something cool, so Imma gonna post it here instead of a new thread, mmkay?

Run towards the ledge of the stage, right as you reach the ledge, rar sh zair. WA-LA! Insta-edgehog thats faster than speed hugging!

A seemingly useless addition to the above trick, if you tap down while in the middle of the insta-edgehog (after you grapple, before you're hanging) you'll release the tether and instantly grab the ledge. My techskill sucks so I can't do anything out of this cancel... but hey... if anyone has better tech skill than me *cough* you guys *cough* GO EXPERIMENT!

EDIT: Just to prove that you CAN do something about this, I was able to drop, dj, bair. In practice, it looks like it would be the fastest possible way to get a bair close to the ledge. *DA-DOOOM* An easier way to KO! Well, it's another bair setup.

Yeah, I found it first. Didn't think it deserved a thread... but since there's a vid now, it definitely deserves it.

 

[Hive]

Its pretty kwl ^^, but Look like it take a little bit to set up... all in all is it faster than speed hugging?
edit: nvm ^^ I realized it is how often do you usually get to use speeding hugging and this tech in regular matches anyhow?
Good vid btw ^^

 

[0RLY]

It doesn't require any setup... just tech skill. I'd say this method is much better than speed hugging, however much harder to do consistently. If this were as easy as hugging, this would be my only edgehog method.

 

[Hive]

I actually don't use these sorts of edgehogs as much as I think other people do imo ^^
I'm much more prone to trying to go offstage for the gimp/spike/stagespike, and using the tether offstage to edgehog an opponent when an opponent tries to recover ^^ (that thing comes out so FAST!)
But, still its awesome to have that option open , and probably actually I should use it more :D

 

[Sago]

sorry orly

 

[0RLY]

Naw man, it's cool. You didn't put "sorry if this has already been found" like every other noob who makes these kinds of threads. I sorta think backwards, so if someone puts that there, it makes me believe that they're an even bigger noob. Besides, you had a video... so you get more recognition than me.

Err... I don't think I made any sense. Just add 'credits to 0RLy' to your first post, and we should be fine. I'm happy enough to know that something I found was helpful and is being discussed. ^^

 

[Hive]

Naw man, it's cool. You didn't put "sorry if this has already been found" like every other noob who makes these kinds of threads. I sorta think backwards, so if someone puts that there, it makes me believe that they're an even bigger noob. Besides, you had a video... so you get more recognition than me.

Err... I don't think I made any sense. Just add 'credits to 0RLy' to your first post, and we should be fine. I'm happy enough to know that something I found was helpful and is being discussed. ^^

0rly what are you doing? don't you see what a perfect opportunity this is to make Sago do stuff for you... can't you sue or something

 

[Jasona]

Its pretty kwl ^^, but Look like it take a little bit to set up... all in all is it faster than speed hugging?
edit: nvm ^^ I realized it is how often do you usually get to use speeding hugging and this tech in regular matches anyhow?
Good vid btw ^^

i'll use it as often as i can lure someone near the edge

undr and i were practicing this today and after i watched him do it a few times my mind was ablaze with ideas on how to use it.
- i've been looking for a way to continue attacking someone after i'd pushed them over the ledge. it gets me over and down much faster than walking off and FF'ing, plus i can react immediately once i'm in position, by canceling the beam with down, or reel myself in for the invulnerability. once i get it into muscle memory...
- i had an impractical idea in melee that may be useful in brawl. i wondered about speeding up missile canceling by running off the ledge, jumping back on while firing a missile, canceling and repeating. with this tech, it might actually become practical. at least, for homing
- ledgehop to an attack (like a fair), immediately use this tech and repeat. could be amazing if done at ridiculous speeds. at the speeds undr was going... i can easily imagine this as a combo : ledgehop to fair, fair pops them slightly in the air, cancel the fair early with a FF, decide whether or not to jab, use this tech and repeat or uair for an extra hit. or maybe it can be used against someone who shields a ledgehopped fair to break their shield. mindgames. oh! oh! oh! or maybe use the tech to get into position to up+b past the ledge and finish the up+b nearer the ground. the knockback for the up+b could set the up nicely
- this tech would really help me when undr tries to push me to the ledge to corner me into a fight. my old way of extending the field by running off the ledge and jumping back with an aerial is much slower than this tech
- edgeguarding in general. grapple the ledge and be so close that i can instantly hog the ledge by either pulling myself up or letting go, FF'ing and grappling again at the full length (samus can grapple the ledge even when she is completely vertical with it). usually there is a slight lag after grabbing the ledge that's gotten me in trouble a few times
- i've been wondering about how to look for the instant ledgehop. i think it might work if i figure out how to propel samus upward while grappling the ledge. so far, that only happens when i jump before grappling. this tech puts me in the perfect position to jump without needing to FF from the ledge grab first. i don't know how much or how little slack i need in the beam yet or how soon after the jump i should grapple or if the jump to grapple idea will give me enough height, but its a start

 

[Sago]

haha well im gona explore a few more possibiltys but beyond what ive found there arent many aplications ill edit my post , and thanks i like to consider myself not a noob?

 

[Tudor]

That's funny cause i though i found this first, i've been using it for a long time now. I even cancel the grapple to a spike if my opponent is at the right spot ^^

But still very cool that multiple people found this at close time frames.

EDIT: Yah i for sure told rohins about it on June 30 when he came down to visit me, ask him ^^

 

[SuSa]

I found this out as Link last night.

Easier way is to use B-sticking (lolbadIknow, but ever since I mained Lucas I'm hooked on it for everyone but my Link/Sheik (need my DAC D

Dash right > B-stick left (it does an Auto-RAR SH) > Zair > tap down

I call it double-tapping. Because the zair taps the ledge, then you -almost- immediatly grab onto the edge.

Really flashy, and if you're REALLY quick you can do a bair/nair then second jump/up-B back to the ledge.

^ Repeated video but for "Link"... just noticed that xD


It's uses so far is:

-Easily stopping momentum (look at your spike/uair (stage spike possibility?)
-Flashy
-Mindgames (such as 'forcing' an up-B )

 

[Undrdog]

I'm going to continue screwing around with this tonight. Should be oodles of fun. But seriously I've found two characters that this really ups the game of. Thing is though the longer someone's Foxtrot is the harder it is to pull off. Luckily Samus' Foxtrot is relatively short thus allowing this technique to be used from a DashDance. ^_^

 

[Rohins]

EDIT: Yah i for sure told rohins about it on June 30 when he came down to visit me, ask him ^^

Oh wow memory lane~~

Yeah I remember. I guess I just never did it / saw it on vid / spazzed when I witnessed it.

 

[Tudor]

i really should share with you guys stuff i find... that's why i'll write a guide with stuff i use (or at least i think i use, or i think are useful)

I can think of a couple of very useful things I haven't shared... forgive me!

1 for example is missile canceling a homing missile and buffering an u-tilt (or even d-tilt to kill). It's really really useful! if it is done right you hit the opponent with the homing missile and it links right into it...

Also on battle field when i hit opponents off i do a quick double jump onto one of the side platforms (which is closest to the side I hit the opponent off) then i missile cancel a homing missile, then i run off and missile cancel another as i land, then if i just hold forward as i land and hit b i shoot another instantly then i up-b and edge hog, it's quite impressive (lol i think) and it works well. I'll make a vid for you guys when i get my pvr station back from archos if you want... i'll also get working on that guide if you want... but dryn was working on one so yah....

 

[Sago]

with what tudor was saying my combo video has i believe both of those things in it, the double jump run off missle cancel run off missle and then i like to double just a zair and up b it works pretty well also i like to use jump off the ledge and then bomb and go back onto the edge it can lead into a spike or at least mind games

 

[Tudor]

i'm positive no one does that battlefield thing at least...

 

[PK-ow!]

Yeah, that would be pretty dang cool if we had an instant return to stage.

Well I don't know about instant, but you could

zair to ledge (Z)
retract (Z)
ledgehop to bomb (back + jump to down-B)
move onto the stage (aerial movement)
BombCancel the lag (tap down ASA grounded)
then SHZair (back to step one)

Not tested; I just thought of it. It might even be slower than just ledge hopping then going back, but the momentum properties of bomb should fill in for the inability to fast fall, I think.

@Tudor: Wait, this edgeguard missile barrage. . . are you taking advantage of the "edge scrape" property with that transition to the third missile you shoot, or are you just missile cancelling (the second missile), walking off, and firing a (third) missile?

BTW, I watched some of your recent vids. Your playstyle is more robust and your technique is much more deep than. . . certain other role models. I think the best thing you do is your followups to FH double zairs; it's really clear that's where you're earning advantage. Trying to extract what I like in it, and build on it.

Any tips on how to get the most out of SH dair?

 

[Undrdog]

i'm positive no one does that battlefield thing at least...

Yeah but that's just a variant of one of the basic Samus tricks from the Melee days. Not that it's bad but I kinda figured most all Samus' have been doing this. I'm kinda surprised that this isn't regularly practiced. Sure it's not the same as it was in Melee but I would've thought people would've experimented enough to rediscover this rather quickly.

 

[DelxDoom]

I have serious doubts about this btw guys >.>

there's like... very few perks... only things i can see are the quick movement and the option of (slightly lagged) invincibility

lol

 

[Tudor]

@ PK-ow! I think it is an "edge scrape" although i've never heard it called that before, i didn't know it had a name, but yah, pretty much what happens with those last two missiles is that you run off the platform and the second you can shoot a homing missile without doing a standing one on the platform, then you just keep holding the control stick away from the stage and hit b as you land and you just scrape the edge and fall right off, it's cool ^^ And thanks for those comments, usually when i land a d-air on stage i get a free up-b, you can try to u-air but up-b is guaranteed every time

 

[PK-ow!]

@ PK-ow! I think it is an "edge scrape" although i've never heard it called that before, i didn't know it had a name,

It doesn't. For some reason, it went by as many names as it had aspects of interacting with specific characters for. . . a couple months. Then people realized it was actually because of the same thing, although no one can quite say what it is, and there's still no common name for it.
I hope edge scraping spreads. The phenomenon of 'counting' as landing on ground, when colliding with the very edge of a solid stage in a specific way, even though the character passes instantly to a state of neutral fall, just beside the stage.

Notice this doesn't include Wolf's scarring property. That just seems to be. . . because the movement is not as straight as the pink purple aftereffect suggests. I believe that whatever allows him to scar, is also what allows him to sometimes shoot up and instantly land on the stage (actually land there).

Edge scraping would be what's going on when he 'hits' the stage, then starts falling (but you have your jumps back).

usually when i land a d-air on stage i get a free up-b, you can try to u-air but up-b is guaranteed every time

Oh, I should ask then: Do you fast fall the dairs? I haven't been, because the move finishes just before landing if you don't. . . . huh, I suppose you have less lag if you just fast fall. Wow it seems so obvious now.

 

[0RLY]

i'll use it as often as i can lure someone near the edge

undr and i were practicing this today and after i watched him do it a few times my mind was ablaze with ideas on how to use it.
- i've been looking for a way to continue attacking someone after i'd pushed them over the ledge. it gets me over and down much faster than walking off and FF'ing, plus i can react immediately once i'm in position, by canceling the beam with down, or reel myself in for the invulnerability. once i get it into muscle memory...
good
- i had an impractical idea in melee that may be useful in brawl. i wondered about speeding up missile canceling by running off the ledge, jumping back on while firing a missile, canceling and repeating. with this tech, it might actually become practical. at least, for homing
might as well ledgehop missile to ledge regrab
- ledgehop to an attack (like a fair), immediately use this tech and repeat. could be amazing if done at ridiculous speeds. at the speeds undr was going... i can easily imagine this as a combo : ledgehop to fair, fair pops them slightly in the air, cancel the fair early with a FF, decide whether or not to jab, use this tech and repeat or uair for an extra hit. or maybe it can be used against someone who shields a ledgehopped fair to break their shield. mindgames. oh! oh! oh! or maybe use the tech to get into position to up+b past the ledge and finish the up+b nearer the ground. the knockback for the up+b could set the up nicely
Hitstun in brawl doesn't last long enough. The fair doesn't break shields, it shield pokes. Using up-B as an offensive move in the air? Brave man. Good ideas nonetheless.
- this tech would really help me when undr tries to push me to the ledge to corner me into a fight. my old way of extending the field by running off the ledge and jumping back with an aerial is much slower than this tech
Immensely.
- edgeguarding in general. grapple the ledge and be so close that i can instantly hog the ledge by either pulling myself up or letting go, FF'ing and grappling again at the full length (samus can grapple the ledge even when she is completely vertical with it). usually there is a slight lag after grabbing the ledge that's gotten me in trouble a few times
Very smart. It'll help avoid getting stage spiked. Falcon Dive gets me everytime.
- i've been wondering about how to look for the instant ledgehop. i think it might work if i figure out how to propel samus upward while grappling the ledge. so far, that only happens when i jump before grappling. this tech puts me in the perfect position to jump without needing to FF from the ledge grab first. i don't know how much or how little slack i need in the beam yet or how soon after the jump i should grapple or if the jump to grapple idea will give me enough height, but its a start

When you grapple the stage from a ledge hop... with good timing, you can get the grapple to come out... but the momentum from your jump moves you out of range for the grapple to reel you in... that way you just snap back to your normal falling animation. I'm pretty sure you can get back to the stage with this, and immediately perform this AT to get back to the ledge again. Now that I think of it... this isn't much faster than a ledgehop... :S

I found this out as Link last night.

Easier way is to use B-sticking (lolbadIknow, but ever since I mained Lucas I'm hooked on it for everyone but my Link/Sheik (need my DAC D

Dash right > B-stick left (it does an Auto-RAR SH) > Zair > tap down

I call it double-tapping. Because the zair taps the ledge, then you -almost- immediatly grab onto the edge.

Really flashy, and if you're REALLY quick you can do a bair/nair then second jump/up-B back to the ledge.

^ Repeated video but for "Link"... just noticed that xD


It's uses so far is:

-Easily stopping momentum (look at your spike/uair (stage spike possibility?)
-Flashy
-Mindgames (such as 'forcing' an up-B )

Quoted to emphasize B-sticking. Also to make Havokk feel important.

I'm going to continue screwing around with this tonight. Should be oodles of fun. But seriously I've found two characters that this really ups the game of. Thing is though the longer someone's Foxtrot is the harder it is to pull off. Luckily Samus' Foxtrot is relatively short thus allowing this technique to be used from a DashDance. ^_^

Quoted to emphasize short foxtrot. Undr is already important.

i really should share with you guys stuff i find... that's why i'll write a guide with stuff i use (or at least i think i use, or i think are useful)

I can think of a couple of very useful things I haven't shared... forgive me!

1 for example is missile canceling a homing missile and buffering an u-tilt (or even d-tilt to kill). It's really really useful! if it is done right you hit the opponent with the homing missile and it links right into it...

Also on battle field when i hit opponents off i do a quick double jump onto one of the side platforms (which is closest to the side I hit the opponent off) then i missile cancel a homing missile, then i run off and missile cancel another as i land, then if i just hold forward as i land and hit b i shoot another instantly then i up-b and edge hog, it's quite impressive (lol i think) and it works well. I'll make a vid for you guys when i get my pvr station back from archos if you want... i'll also get working on that guide if you want... but dryn was working on one so yah....

tl;dr ver.
tudor also likes to use h.missile > dtilt
jump to platform > missile cancel > dash off platform > missile cancel > dash off stage (optional) > missile > screw attack to ledge

Well I don't know about instant, but you could

zair to ledge (Z)
retract (Z)
ledgehop to bomb (back + jump to down-B)
move onto the stage (aerial movement)
BombCancel the lag (tap down ASA grounded)
then SHZair (back to step one)

Not tested; I just thought of it. It might even be slower than just ledge hopping then going back, but the momentum properties of bomb should fill in for the inability to fast fall, I think.
this is actually slower than a ledgehop

@Tudor: Wait, this edgeguard missile barrage. . . are you taking advantage of the "edge scrape" property with that transition to the third missile you shoot, or are you just missile cancelling (the second missile), walking off, and firing a (third) missile?

BTW, I watched some of your recent vids. Your playstyle is more robust and your technique is much more deep than. . . certain other role models. I think the best thing you do is your followups to FH double zairs; it's really clear that's where you're earning advantage. Trying to extract what I like in it, and build on it.

Any tips on how to get the most out of SH dair?

SH insta dair mash down to fast fall through the whole move.
low%: repeat
mid%: pivot utilt
high%: screw attack

I have serious doubts about this btw guys >.>

there's like... very few perks... only things i can see are the quick movement and the option of (slightly lagged) invincibility

lol

This is so much faster than normal edge hogging. I'm pretty freakin sure Samus actually gets her invincibility faster with this method of edgehogging. Samus falls THAT slow.

 

[Orichalcum]

this is a very nice addition to the normal edgehog.

 

[0RLY]

It sure is. I wonder if anyone on this board is technical enough to master it.

 

[Sago]

im pretty technical in melee so ill fool around with it as much as possible starting monday try and find some cool stuff

 

[TLMSheikant]

i wonder if this works with tl? *goes to check out*.

 

[Undrdog]

It works with Toon Link but it's very odd. Toon Link's Foxtrot is insanely long which makes this technique hard to do spontaneously at the edge. Plus there's a much greater chance to overshoot the edge with Toon Link.

In my opinion, this is best done with Samus and Sheik. Sheik in particular seems to have a lot of potential with this.

 

[n00b]

It sure is. I wonder if anyone on this board is technical enough to master it.

No, nobody.

 

[Undrdog]

No, nobody.

Certainly no Samus players anyway. I on the other hand find it to be quite easy.

 

[n00b]

Certainly no Samus players anyway. I on the other hand find it to be quite easy.

+rep

10lulz

 

[Jasona]

Certainly no Samus players anyway. I on the other hand find it to be quite easy.

if it makes samus faster, then i'll get it eventually. especially if it helps with combos
EDIT: i figured it out. dash, turn, *skid* , jump, zair

 

[Undrdog]

EDIT: i figured it out. dash, turn, *skid* , jump, zair

10facepalms