About Shield-B moves...

[Necro'lic]

I think there's some untapped potential with this fifth special move option for certain characters. Inkling uses it for resource management, but I think it could be used as a sort of extra supplementary part of a character's moveset, specifically the more advanced ones. Some easy ones in my head are:

Olimar: Shield-B could be the Pikmin Pluck which frees up Neutral-B and makes it seem less like he has three special moves

Ice Climbers: A way to either desync easier in some fashion, or call the two Climbers back from a desync. Also, a way to call Nana if she dies. Probably would involve a charge like Cloud's limit.

Cloud: Speaking of, Shield-B could be his Limit charge. Not sure where Finishing Touch would go though.

What do you guys think? What other characters would this be appropriate on?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Shield B could be used by Pokemon Trainer to switch between Pokemon so that each individual Pokemon doesn't have to have a missing move.

 

[Necro'lic]

Shield B could be used by Pokemon Trainer to switch between Pokemon so that each individual Pokemon doesn't have to have a missing move.

Totally forgot about that lol.

Honestly, I think it's fine there because of the fact that Pokemon have only four Pokemon moves, and with their Final Smash being the fourth move, it was sort of out of my mind as appropriate to change the Down-B.

 

[Crystanium]

I like that in Make Your Move, I tried to improve Samus by giving her Counter as an option. She would have to perfect shield an attack and then press A. And here we are with SSBU working similar to it, except by letting go of the shield at the right time. In Samus' case, I could see her being given the option of cycling through her beams so that she could use Charge Shot, Ice Shot, Wave Shot, and Plasma Shot.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Rosalina desyncing Luma without shooting the poor guy into the fray would be huge. I think lots of Counter moves would make sense as a shield special. But in doing so you'd remove the ability to use them in the air. Not being able to counter an opponent's recovery move takes away pretty much the only sure application such a move would have in competitive play.

But I'm worried such a focus on Shield Specials would turn into a game of haves and have nots. Some character just don't have something applicable unless you want every character in the game to have some kind of counter or reflector move.

 

[chaostails7]

The problem with PT using Shield+B to switch is that then they can't do it in the air (air-dodge + B to replace it feels really weird). That applies to all Shield+B inputs - so I'm sure Cloud wouldn't appreciate it all that much.

 

[Quillion]

Shield B could be used by Pokemon Trainer to switch between Pokemon so that each individual Pokemon doesn't have to have a missing move.

Ooh, and what about Ganondorf drawing his sword or Zelda drawing her bow?

 

[VeryUncreative]

An interesting thing to think about while thinking up moves is they would be usable OOS. So perhaps a defensive combo starter (Low range, fast startup, sets up combos) would be in order. Of course, this doesn't have to be the case, but I think it should be taken advantage of.

Another property of these moves is they are impossible to do in the air. That makes them like a normal, but it uses the b button. Perhaps they are fast like tilts, but with a cool effect like most specials.

Edit: Whoops chaostails7 said that first.

Perhaps Ganon brings the hilt of his sword up in a similar visual fashion to Roy's jab? Would have low startup, very low range, sets up for up air or turnaround bait.

 

[Quillion]

An interesting thing to think about while thinking up moves is they would be usable OOS. So perhaps a defensive combo starter (Low range, fast startup, sets up combos) would be in order. Of course, this doesn't have to be the case, but I think it should be taken advantage of.

Another property of these moves is they are impossible to do in the air. That makes them like a normal, but it uses the b button. Perhaps they are fast like tilts, but with a cool effect like most specials.

Edit: Whoops chaostails7 said that first.

Perhaps Ganon brings the hilt of his sword up in a similar visual fashion to Roy's jab? Would have low startup, very low range, sets up for up air or turnaround bait.

Defensive combo starters would be really annoying if it neuters the footsies and poking game. It would be like SF4's Focus Attack to the nth power.

I think Shield B moves need to be reserved for "power charge" or "moveset change" attacks because of this.

And if air dodge-B will be an issue, they just need to make the air dodge cancellable with Shield B only on the first few frames. I believe Ultimate does something similar with Zairs.

 

[Necro'lic]

Defensive combo starters would be really annoying if it neuters the footsies and poking game. It would be like SF4's Focus Attack to the nth power.

I think Shield B moves need to be reserved for "power charge" or "moveset change" attacks because of this.

And if air dodge-B will be an issue, they just need to make the air dodge cancellable with Shield B only on the first few frames. I believe Ultimate does something similar with Zairs.

I agree that Shield-B should be reserved for "specialist" style characters and should otherwise try to be avoided unless really needed. In this way, I actually regret bringing up Cloud's limit. I think it isn't necessary for him to have a true fourth move, just thought it was a cool thought. However, I still stand by more complicated characters having it, like Olimar and Ice Climbers.

 

[SvartWolf]

Shield B could be used by Pokemon Trainer to switch between Pokemon so that each individual Pokemon doesn't have to have a missing move.

The problem with PT using Shield+B to switch is that then they can't do it in the air (air-dodge + B to replace it feels really weird). That applies to all Shield+B inputs - so I'm sure Cloud wouldn't appreciate it all that much.

woops, ed

 

[Quillion]

I agree that Shield-B should be reserved for "specialist" style characters and should otherwise try to be avoided unless really needed. In this way, I actually regret bringing up Cloud's limit. I think it isn't necessary for him to have a true fourth move, just thought it was a cool thought. However, I still stand by more complicated characters having it, like Olimar and Ice Climbers.

Nah, you're absolutely right about bringing up Cloud's Limit Charge. Olimar's Pikmin Pluck would also be very well suited to Shield B.

Shield B for Ice Climbers could be "player switch": allowing the player to switch between Popo and Nana as the lead. It would be a more organic way of utilizing two fighters without purely emergent desyncing techniques.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

If Shield Specials become a thing with more fighters than just , then I would be disappointed if and can't transform into each other once again given that they are the same person and this was a feature in two previous Smash games. I once thought this could work with and too, but I have gone back on those beliefs in part because of .

 

[Quillion]

What do you guys think? What other characters would this be appropriate on?

You know what? I'll take this challenge. I'll come up with Shield-Bs for as much characters I can possibly think of. As usual, my terms for Shield-B applies: no Shield-B must be a real attack; just a power charge or a moveset swap.

• : Fire Flower: Gives him a fiery aura (to preserve the Fire Mario palette), powers up all of his attacks' damage and knockback growth, and adds a fire effect. This lasts 15 seconds, and must be recharged 45 seconds after it runs out. An icon on his percent meter shows whether it's available or not.
  • To compensate for the loss of the Fire Flower as an item, it should be replaced with an original Flamethrower item.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Weapon Swap: This allows him to pull out a Knight's Halberd or a Knight's Claymore, changing all of his normals that by default use the Master Sword. (Cycles through: Master Sword-Halberd-Claymore) The former increases his attack speed and range but has poor killing power, and the latter increases his killing power and range but has worse frame data. Similar to Robin, either of these weapons break after enough use (only on hit) and must respawn 10 seconds after each break.
• : Beam Swap: Allows Samus to switch out her Charge Shot for Ice Beam and gives her "explosive" attacks ice properties (no, I don't want it to be an exact copy of what PM does). This decreases each move's knockback growth but doubles hitstun with a chance of freezing at high percentages (assuming that they will introduce histstun-knockback separation. Someday...)
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Beam Whip: Swaps out several of his normals with the first ability in most Kirby games: Beam. This greatly increases range but decreases damage and knockback growth.
• : Hyper Laser: This gives Fox a blue aura, colors his Blaster blue, and gives it flinching properties. However, it wears off if Fox takes two hits regardless of damage or fires 10 shots, whichever comes first. It must be recharged 1 minute after it runs out, an an icon on his percent meter shows if it's available.
• : Charge: Gives Pikachu an electric aura, and otherwise same as Mario's Fire Flower boost. However, it also gives it a temporary weight boost.
• : Fire Flower: Identical to Mario's.
• : Lifeup: Heals Ness 2% every half-second to start with, and must be held up to 3 seconds. If held beyond 3 seconds, it will increase to 6% every half-second. Endlag identical to Jigglypuff's Rest.
• : Boost Power: Captain Falcon can deal himself 20% damage to increase the damage on all of his moves for 10 seconds.
• : Rest: I will make an exception to "not a real attack" for this. It retains its damaging capability, but it otherwise works identically to Ness's Lifeup.
• : I thought about giving her powers based on the Vibe Powers from Super Princess Peach, but I don't think it's a good idea. So I can't think oaf anything.
• : Tougher Guy: Makes Bowser entirely immune to flinching and knockback for 5 seconds. This can be cancelled into any attack, but it must recharge 1 minute after it runs out.
• : Player Switch: Switches between Popo and Nana as the lead, cancels the backup's current action, and this can be done during any attack. To compensate, any grabs that are Player Switched automatically do a forward throw (coupled with grab invincibility), and if the Ice Climbers are themselves grabbed, it won't work.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Light Bow Draw. With the loss of her Light Bow as a Final Smash, this would be better suited to an alternate projectile normal moveset. This swaps her Smashes and aerials with Light Bow shots (the former can be angled).
• : Fire Flower. Identical to Mario's.
• : Rest. Works identically to Jigglypuff's Rest without the attack part.
• : Hyper Laser: Similar to Fox's, but increases the damage of his Blaster for five shots without affecting anything else. Still disengages after two hits and must recharge.
• : Rapier Draw: Swaps out Falchion for a Rapier. Gives several of his moves better frame data, but decreases damage, BKB and KBG, and thins out his hitboxes.
• : Great Fairy Sword: Swaps out his Kokiri Sword for the Great Fairy Sword. Like Link's Knight's Claymore, it decreases his frame data for more range and kill power. Also breaks after enough use and must be recharged after 10 seconds.
• : Sword Draw: The one a number of you have been waiting for. This increases the range and hitbox width of a number of his moves (Smashes, Forward, Back, and Up Aerials), but they're only as strong as his unarmed moves if hit on the tip.
• : Calm Mind: Gives Mewtwo a magenta or dark aura and otherwise works the same as Pikachu's Charge.
• : Rapier Draw: Same as Marth's.
• : Can't think of anything.

I think I'll stop there and come up with the rest later...

 

[Quillion]

Come to think of it, Shield-B could essentially be Smash's V-Trigger. That said, I still don't want any of them to be real attacks.

Moving on, let's come up with some for the Brawl-Ultimate characters.

• : Meta Quick: Increases his movement speed, gives all of his moves transcendent priority, and allows him to interrupt his moves earlier. However, this decreases his knockback all around. Lasts 10 seconds and must be recharged after 50 seconds.
• : Energy Charge: Increases damage and knockback on his moves until he gets hit. Must be recharged after a minute.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Garlic Feast: Adds some charge to his Wario Waft, but lasts longer than his "big item" Chomp.
• : Yune's Blessing: Gives Ike and his sword a blue fire aura. Works the same as Mario's Fire Flower otherwise.
• : Pokémon Change: This would work better as a Shield-B and would give all three Pokémon a full set of specials.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Offense Up: Gives Lucas an orange aura. Each individual boost is small, but it can be stacked up to three times, each time resetting the timer. Lasts 15 seconds and must be recharged after 60 seconds.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Aura Boost: Lucario can deal itself 20% damage to power up its attacks.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Elixir Soup: Increases damage and knockback on his moves for 15 seconds. This has two servings, and each serving recharges after 45 seconds.
• : Hyper Laser: Works similar to Falco's: increases damage on his lasers for 5 shots or until he takes two hits.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Sonic Boost: Increases his movement speed and damage. This drains from a meter by his HUD that starts out empty, and it fills up every time he scores a hit and even more when he scores a KO. At maximum, it lasts 12 seconds.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Deep Breathing: This move would transfer best to a Shield B.
• : Luma Heal/Summon: Completely heals Luma if present. This takes 5 seconds. In the absence of Luma, will summon another one.
• : Power Charge: Allows Little Mac to fill his Super Punch meter, though he's automatically locked into a 2 second charge at minimum.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Lightweight: If customs are going, this better serves as a Shield B.
• Ignis: Gives Robin an aura of cherry blossom petals. Works the same as Mario's Fire Flower otherwise.
• : Monado Arts: Best served as a Shield B. Monado Purge should replace it as Neutral B.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Denjn Renki: Gives all of his moves electric effects, higher damage, and his Hadouken (which becomes Denjin Hadouken) paralysis properties. Lasts 10 seconds and recharges after 45.
• : Limit Charge: Just move this to Shield-B.
• : Bloody Rose Lollipop: Gives Bayonetta a red aura and 15 seconds of increased damage. Recharges after 45 seconds.
• : Ink Refill: We already have this.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Can't think of anything.
• : Lance Draw: Pulls a lance, which has higher range and combo potential, but thin hitboxes and lower damage.
• : Beam Swap: Shares Samus's Ice Beam.
• : Flame Whip: Gives his whip flame properties and 15 seconds of increased damage. Recharges after 45 seconds.
• : Flame Whip: Same as Simon's.

Man, that took a while.

 

[chaostails7]

• : Pokémon Change: This would work better as a Shield-B and would give all three Pokémon a full set of specials.

I feel compelled to point out that if everyone had 5 specials instead of 4, the Pokémon still wouldn't have a full set of specials...

 

[Quillion]

I feel compelled to point out that if everyone had 5 specials instead of 4, the Pokémon still wouldn't have a full set of specials...

Touché. But I made an active effort to make Shield-Bs exclusively buffs or moveset changes of some sort. Only Jigglypuff's Rest would be an attack, but I mainly wanted it to have healing capabilities.

 

[Necro'lic]

Like I said before, this should be relegated to very special cases I think. I just wanted to put it out there because I think more than just Inkling deserves this new tool. While we could have every character have them, I feel it would bring back the problem I had which compelled me to post this, which is some characters either having basically three special moves, or characters that are too advanced and complicated to be stuck with only four. It should be used with some discretion, but maybe not for ALL characters.

For example, fighters like Mario, Luigi, Zero Suit, Ike, Fox, Wii Fit Trainer, etc have what I would definitely call "complete" movesets. Other than Olimar and Icies, I think maybe Little Mac could have his KO Punch be mapped to Shield-B, allowing him to use Straight Lunge while at full meter for example, because it feels like it's like that presently because of an oversight/limited design space more than by design.

 

[Luigifan18]

Like I said before, this should be relegated to very special cases I think. I just wanted to put it out there because I think more than just Inkling deserves this new tool. While we could have every character have them, I feel it would bring back the problem I had which compelled me to post this, which is some characters either having basically three special moves, or characters that are too advanced and complicated to be stuck with only four. It should be used with some discretion, but maybe not for ALL characters.

For example, fighters like Mario, Luigi, Zero Suit, Ike, Fox, Wii Fit Trainer, etc have what I would definitely call "complete" movesets. Other than Olimar and Icies, I think maybe Little Mac could have his KO Punch be mapped to Shield-B, allowing him to use Straight Lunge while at full meter for example, because it feels like it's like that presently because of an oversight/limited design space more than by design.

By that logic (which is something I do agree with), Final Smashes being mapped to override the neutral special move has always bugged me. I'd rather they have a separate input, like standard+special (A+B).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Shield + B is a ground only input is really the problem here. If you allow it in the air, the reasonable input overlap is going to make huge issues. Remember that pressing two buttons together doesn't check for it being quite simultaneous, and most airdodges are invincible on f3 so it would be really tough if you have this advanced technique in which you start up an airdodge for a frame or two of invincibiltiy and then do a special out of that. This is further an issue because Smash in general does not like to make characters limited in the air. The only specials in Smash 4 that are ground only are Pikmin Pluck and Vegetables (and custom variants thereof) as far as I can remember. Inkling recharging ink in the air would both be unfairly useful and wouldn't make sense given the animation so this unique input works well for this function, but I think it's mostly for the best that it remains unique.

What I would like, however, is that since shield + B is recognized as a macro that it should be a shortcut on other characters. My preference would be that shield + B would do an up-B OoS with no need to press up for non-Inkling characters; it would just make playing characters with good up-B OoS options like Marth, Samus, (Dr.) Mario, and G&W a bit easier to use while not really changing the game otherwise. Inkling's up-B seems like a poor OoS option so it would all work out and all be fair.

 

[Necro'lic]

Shield + B is a ground only input is really the problem here. If you allow it in the air, the reasonable input overlap is going to make huge issues. Remember that pressing two buttons together doesn't check for it being quite simultaneous, and most airdodges are invincible on f3 so it would be really tough if you have this advanced technique in which you start up an airdodge for a frame or two of invincibiltiy and then do a special out of that.

Wait, why couldn't you have the command just be "shield button + special button"? If what you say about input overlap is true, then how come it's very easy to do a sidestep rather than shield then sidestep? Or for that matter, roll instead of shield then roll? I think it might actually be easier than you think. Last I checked, the buffer for these "multiple input" moves is three frames, so if the game doesn't detect another button after the airdodge, just have that downtime of invincibility be those three frames and have the actual airdodge be invincible on frame 1. The same effect occurs, but the 3 frame buffer is still there.

Of course, I might be completely off here...

 

[Luigifan18]

Personally, I've always wanted Shield+B in as some sort of defensive or change-up option, such as healing techniques, self-buffs, and stances.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Quillion
I like the suggestions, but move swaps with characters other than would be generally a bad idea as it motivates players to go with one move set over the other(s) practically recreating the character.

For example, if had the ability to utilize all three types of weaponry, everyone would use the just one of the three weapons. I would guess it to be the Halbred as it would be the fastest one with the longest range. Nobody would use the Claymore or Master Sword in that case. Of course, I could be wrong about which weapon would be the go to, but which weapon it is makes no difference. This statement also applies for all fighters you assigned this type of Shield Special to including but not limited to , , , and . There's also the fact that it could get a tad bit confusing because it isn't a full fighter swap but is just a weapon swap. Back in the good old days of Smash Melee and Smash Brawl, when someone transformed from to , everyone knew what they're getting into as the differences in models are more than clear. Same with and . Weapon swaps might not be as clear during a fight and things may get confusing quickly.

 

[Quillion]

Quillion
I like the suggestions, but move swaps with characters other than would be generally a bad idea as it motivates players to go with one move set over the other(s) practically recreating the character.

Competitive players would certainly prefer one or the other, but I think it's a stretch to say "everyone".

And even then, what's wrong with that?

 

[Izanagi97]

I can kinda see everyone having shield B moves since it sounds like something similar to V triggers

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Make Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS the same and transform with Shield B.

 

[Putuk]

I feel this for the most part is kinda redundant. Don't clutter a moveset needlessly.
And if a Shield-B is a thing, it should probably be very much a utility move that is best used when you are out of any sort of danger (as the Inklings ink refilling move is probably best after taking a stock or knocking someone off-stage and not having to worry about your opponent for a moment).

As much as I want Ivysaur to have a Down-B, putting Pokémon Switch on a Shield-B would mean you can no longer use it in the air to switch to Charizard, so you can recover more effectively. I'll count my losses on this one.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Competitive players would certainly prefer one or the other, but I think it's a stretch to say "everyone".

And even then, what's wrong with that?

What's wrong with it is that it is giving people multiple different options with the same character. Saying "everyone" may have been an overstatement, but there's still another issue. If players were to actually utilize weapon swap, it would just discourage players with a main that has this type of move from try new things or have fun with other fighters.

I'm using as the prime example here. A Halberd is weak but would have range. It would be really useful to not let the enemy get close. If one is seeking to utilize tons of spacing to an advantage, they should seek out , , or . A Claymore is slow but has a lot of power. It also is huge which I can imagine would weigh him down a lot. If one is looking to play a strong hitting heavy fighter, they should give , , or a try. It removes motivation for newer players to be adventurous. I think it would be best for players to give more than two or three fighters a try. I likely wouldn't have went on with Smash if there wasn't motivation to try fighters other than the few I knew when I first got the game. I had no idea who half the characters was back in Smash Brawl, but still gave them a try and actually really found a love for at the end of the day.

I know that possibility is already out the window competitively, but that is because of one of two reasons. They may have gave others a try already in the previous games and found strong suits they want to stick with, or they could just be competitive wannabes that wait for a tier list and use the best fighter.

 

[Izanagi97]

One thing I'd like for a Shield B is for the Beam change is to swap between the Prime versions of the Wave, Ice, and Plasma beams and how it would affect Charge shot, Super missile, and attacks involving firing the arm cannon (such as Dtilt, Usmash, Fair, and Up throw)

• Power Beam would function how it currently does
• Wave Beam would do electric damage on cannon attacks, make Charge Shot have homing properties (and can stun), and make Super missile the Wavebuster (a homing single target multihit attack that ends with a stun)
• Ice Beam would do ice damage on cannon attacks, make Charge Shot able to freeze enemies, and make Super missile the Ice Spreader (a very powerful shot that can be angled and will spread ice on impact, hindering mobility and freezing anyone touching the spreading ice, direct hits by the projectile are deadly)
• Plasma beams would do (greater) fire damage on cannon attacks, make Charge shot a piercing beam that can hit multiple targets, and turn Super missile into the Flamethrower (a multihit attack that can be angled and hit multiple targets that ends with moderate to high knockback)

Main downside (besides micromanagement) would probably be higher startup on Super missile or requiring a fully charged charge shot to get the most out of the beam combos

 

[Quillion]

What's wrong with it is that it is giving people multiple different options with the same character. Saying "everyone" may have been an overstatement, but there's still another issue. If players were to actually utilize weapon swap, it would just discourage players with a main that has this type of move from try new things or have fun with other fighters.

I'm using as the prime example here. A Halberd is weak but would have range. It would be really useful to not let the enemy get close. If one is seeking to utilize tons of spacing to an advantage, they should seek out , , or . A Claymore is slow but has a lot of power. It also is huge which I can imagine would weigh him down a lot. If one is looking to play a strong hitting heavy fighter, they should give , , or a try. It removes motivation for newer players to be adventurous. I think it would be best for players to give more than two or three fighters a try. I likely wouldn't have went on with Smash if there wasn't motivation to try fighters other than the few I knew when I first got the game. I had no idea who half the characters was back in Smash Brawl, but still gave them a try and actually really found a love for at the end of the day.

I know that possibility is already out the window competitively, but that is because of one of two reasons. They may have gave others a try already in the previous games and found strong suits they want to stick with, or they could just be competitive wannabes that wait for a tier list and use the best fighter.

I still don't see anything wrong with this. If someone wants to play as one character over another, that's on them, not the game.

Besides, I'm sure that people already like to play as different heavies for different reasons, people already like to play as different lightweights for different reasons, and people already like to play as different middleweights for different reasons.

One thing I'd like for a Shield B is for the Beam change is to swap between the Prime versions of the Wave, Ice, and Plasma beams and how it would affect Charge shot, Super missile, and attacks involving firing the arm cannon (such as Dtilt, Usmash, Fair, and Up throw)

• Power Beam would function how it currently does
• Wave Beam would do electric damage on cannon attacks, make Charge Shot have homing properties (and can stun), and make Super missile the Wavebuster (a homing single target multihit attack that ends with a stun)
• Ice Beam would do ice damage on cannon attacks, make Charge Shot able to freeze enemies, and make Super missile the Ice Spreader (a very powerful shot that can be angled and will spread ice on impact, hindering mobility and freezing anyone touching the spreading ice, direct hits by the projectile are deadly)
• Plasma beams would do (greater) fire damage on cannon attacks, make Charge shot a piercing beam that can hit multiple targets, and turn Super missile into the Flamethrower (a multihit attack that can be angled and hit multiple targets that ends with moderate to high knockback)

Main downside (besides micromanagement) would probably be higher startup on Super missile or requiring a fully charged charge shot to get the most out of the beam combos

That's honestly a bit much. I think just one Ice mode is enough.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

If Shield Specials become a thing with more fighters than just , then I would be disappointed if and can't transform into each other once again given that they are the same person and this was a feature in two previous Smash games. Hey, this could work with and too, but I'm not sure on this one given the presence of .

Samus & Dark Samus are two different beings. Samus is basically Zero Suit Samus with a power armor, same character. Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime that merged with Samus's power armor. So basically, if Samus could transform into Zero Suit Samus, they doesn't have to do the samus with Dark Samus. Though, I agree that why would someone pick Dark Samus when you can have two character in one.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Samus & Dark Samus are two different beings. Samus is basically Zero Suit Samus with a power armor, same character. Dark Samus is the Metroid Prime that merged with Samus's power armor. So basically, if Samus could transform into Zero Suit Samus, they doesn't have to do the samus with Dark Samus. Though, I agree that why would someone pick Dark Samus when you can have two character in one.

Making a Dark Zero Suit Samus could fix that issue, but I don't know if that's a thing canonically.

I still don't see anything wrong with this. If someone wants to play as one character over another, that's on them, not the game.

Besides, I'm sure that people already like to play as different heavies for different reasons, people already like to play as different lightweights for different reasons, and people already like to play as different middleweights for different reasons.

It is on them if that's what they want to do, but the game shouldn't be encouraging that behavior by allowing characters to swap between multiple play styles all with the simple press of the button while holding the button.

 

[smashingDoug]

Just use The skeleton look for Dark zero suit samus, with the claw toes.

 

[VeryUncreative]

Defensive combo starters would be really annoying if it neuters the footsies and poking game. It would be like SF4's Focus Attack to the nth power.

I think Shield B moves need to be reserved for "power charge" or "moveset change" attacks because of this.

And if air dodge-B will be an issue, they just need to make the air dodge cancellable with Shield B only on the first few frames. I believe Ultimate does something similar with Zairs.

You are absolutely right, that would be intolerable. I was more thinking it would be something that would be pretty much impossible to hit if the opponent had even a little idea of the concept of spacing, so you would have to run in shield and force bad spacing if you read their attack. That idea is pointless now that I think about it, as dash attacks and shield grabs do exactly the same thing.

I like the idea of a V-Trigger type move as they add to both the competitive and casual side of the game. More depth for the hardcore, more randomness and chaos for the softcore(makes sense, even if it isn't a word). Slap on a name like 'Super Shield Power!' or something, add it to the loading screen tips and the manual, and go crazy. The only downside I can think of is it would be quite annoying to balance.

Also, change Bayonetta's shield-b to 'can't think of anything', please.
jokes are fun.

 

[Yuya-Noboru]

Making a Dark Zero Suit Samus could fix that issue, but I don't know if that's a thing canonically.

Yes, there is no ZSS version of Dark Samus in the Metroid series.

 

[Jakisthe]

I think they work for some characters, but not every character needs them - a core tenet of Smash is simplicity, after all, and adding 25% more moves for the entire case is decidedly not that. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit - and just because a character *could technically* have a shield-B doesn't mean it fits either.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm going to expand a bit on Samus' Shield+B concept. It's somewhat different from the idea I had in the Make Your Move with my Samus (Improved) concept. I also forgot about Dark Samus, so I'm going to cover her as well.


Charge Shot: This default neutral special deals 3% damage uncharged, and 26% damage when fully charged. It's one of Samus' kill moves, and when combined with Bomb or Super Missile on the opponent's shield, Charge Shot will break shields.

Ice Shot: Ice Shot is slow, but somewhat faster than Dense Charge Shot. It deals 2% damage uncharged, and has a brief freeze effect on the opponent when he or she is at higher percents, much like the Ice Climber's Ice Shot. When fully charged, it deals 18% damage and has a guaranteed freeze effect. It launches the opponent at an 80° angle.

Wave Shot: This neutral special has a paralyzing effect, and it fires slightly faster than Charge Shot. It deals 4% damage uncharged, and 22% damage fully charged. The more Wave Shot is charged, the longer the effect it will have. It's capable of passing through shields, although it won't do any damage to the opponent. It's also incapable of killing, since its main purpose is to set up combos or openings.

Plasma Shot: The fastest traveling neutral special and most powerful in terms of dealing damage, this neutral special deals 5% damage uncharged and 30% damage fully charged. This is one special many Samus mains might be interested in using. Plasma Shot cripples shields with ease, and while a fully charged form of it won't break shields, it will considerably reduce the size of the shield, forcing the opponent to play a little more evasive to allow his or her shield to heal. Due to Plasma Shot's effect, it doesn't kill as early as Charge Shot would.


Scatter Shot: This default neutral special is based on Dark Samus' Charge Shot variant, but behaves differently, since it fires Phazon bullets. It deals 3% damage uncharged, with each bullet producing 1%. Fully charged, Scatter Shot deals 21% damage.[1] It's not a kill move, but when the opponent is caught in a partially or fully charged attack, he or she is incapable of SDI'ing from it.

Dark Shot: Dark Shot retains its scatter property with an added freeze and darkness effect.[2] Uncharged, it now deals 1.5% total, while its fully charged form deals 16% damage. Much like Ice Shot, Dark Shot is slower by comparison and will briefly freeze enemies as their damage increases. When fully charged, the bullet effect is replaced with black round shots, generating an inky, sticky encasement. When immobilized, the darkness effect will cause additional 0.5% damage. Unlike Ice Shot, the opponent isn't launched, but remains grounded and immobilized. Because of this, a recovering opponent could end up caught in this, leading to his or her death off-stage.

Volt Shot: Although this neutral special is meant to mimic Samus' Wave Shot in terms of paralyzing, it lacks such effect. Rather its effect is electrical, which is produced by less hitstun, making Volt Shot a nuisance. When fired, it retains its scatter visuals, although this time in the form of electric bolts. Uncharged, it deals 2% total, while a fully charged Volt Shot will deal 18% damage.

Incendiary Shot: Dark Samus releases an explosive attack, which behaves similarly to Melee Charge Shot. While visually similar to Melee Charge Shot, the entire attack is composed of flames, with embers emitting from the diagonal top and bottom.[3] The longer Incendiary Shot is charged, the farther it goes. The closer the opponent, the more damage and knock-back it deals. This neutral special produces 6% to 10% damage uncharged, depending on the sour or sweet spot. Fully charged, it deals 24% to 30%, once again depending on the sour or sweet spot. Incendiary Shot deals considerable damage on the opponent's shield when fully charged at the sweet spot.

1. 21% damage is the amount of damage the Dark Samus Assist Trophy causes, and each Phazon bullet actually deals 1% damage. I decided to retain this feature.
2. Based on the Dark Beam from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, I thought this would be a fitting alternative to Samus' Ice Shot, especially since the Dark Beam uses dark energy, which was generated by the Ing. See Luminoth Lore - New Weapons.
3. Incendiary Shot is based on Dark Samus' plasma attacks, which she acquired after absorbing Ghor's essence. To avoid using the term "Plasma Shot" for both Samus and Dark Samus, I decided I'd choose a different name and effect.

 

[Izanagi97]

I'm going to expand a bit on Samus' Shield+B concept. It's somewhat different from the idea I had in the Make Your Move with my Samus (Improved) concept. I also forgot about Dark Samus, so I'm going to cover her as well.


Charge Shot: This default neutral special deals 3% damage uncharged, and 26% damage when fully charged. It's one of Samus' kill moves, and when combined with Bomb or Super Missile on the opponent's shield, Charge Shot will break shields.

Ice Shot: Ice Shot is slow, but somewhat faster than Dense Charge Shot. It deals 2% damage uncharged, and has a brief freeze effect on the opponent when he or she is at higher percents, much like the Ice Climber's Ice Shot. When fully charged, it deals 18% damage and has a guaranteed freeze effect. It launches the opponent at an 80° angle.

Wave Shot: This neutral special has a paralyzing effect, and it fires slightly faster than Charge Shot. It deals 4% damage uncharged, and 22% damage fully charged. The more Wave Shot is charged, the longer the effect it will have. It's capable of passing through shields, although it won't do any damage to the opponent. It's also incapable of killing, since its main purpose is to set up combos or openings.

Plasma Shot: The fastest traveling neutral special and most powerful in terms of dealing damage, this neutral special deals 5% damage uncharged and 30% damage fully charged. This is one special many Samus mains might be interested in using. Plasma Shot cripples shields with ease, and while a fully charged form of it won't break shields, it will considerably reduce the size of the shield, forcing the opponent to play a little more evasive to allow his or her shield to heal. Due to Plasma Shot's effect, it doesn't kill as early as Charge Shot would.


Scatter Shot: This default neutral special is based on Dark Samus' Charge Shot variant, but behaves differently, since it fires Phazon bullets. It deals 3% damage uncharged, with each bullet producing 1%. Fully charged, Scatter Shot deals 21% damage.[1] It's not a kill move, but when the opponent is caught in a partially or fully charged attack, he or she is incapable of SDI'ing from it.

Dark Shot: Dark Shot retains its scatter property with an added freeze and darkness effect.[2] Uncharged, it now deals 1.5% total, while its fully charged form deals 16% damage. Much like Ice Shot, Dark Shot is slower by comparison and will briefly freeze enemies as their damage increases. When fully charged, the bullet effect is replaced with black round shots, generating an inky, sticky encasement. When immobilized, the darkness effect will cause additional 0.5% damage. Unlike Ice Shot, the opponent isn't launched, but remains grounded and immobilized. Because of this, a recovering opponent could end up caught in this, leading to his or her death off-stage.

Volt Shot: Although this neutral special is meant to mimic Samus' Wave Shot in terms of paralyzing, it lacks such effect. Rather its effect is electrical, which is produced by less hitstun, making Volt Shot a nuisance. When fired, it retains its scatter visuals, although this time in the form of electric bolts. Uncharged, it deals 2% total, while a fully charged Volt Shot will deal 18% damage.

Incendiary Shot: Dark Samus releases an explosive attack, which behaves similarly to Melee Charge Shot. While visually similar to Melee Charge Shot, the entire attack is composed of flames, with embers emitting from the diagonal top and bottom.[3] The longer Incendiary Shot is charged, the farther it goes. The closer the opponent, the more damage and knock-back it deals. This neutral special produces 6% to 10% damage uncharged, depending on the sour or sweet spot. Fully charged, it deals 24% to 30%, once again depending on the sour or sweet spot. Incendiary Shot deals considerable damage on the opponent's shield when fully charged at the sweet spot.

1. 21% damage is the amount of damage the Dark Samus Assist Trophy causes, and each Phazon bullet actually deals 1% damage. I decided to retain this feature.
2. Based on the Dark Beam from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, I thought this would be a fitting alternative to Samus' Ice Shot, especially since the Dark Beam uses dark energy, which was generated by the Ing. See Luminoth Lore - New Weapons.
3. Incendiary Shot is based on Dark Samus' plasma attacks, which she acquired after absorbing Ghor's essence. To avoid using the term "Plasma Shot" for both Samus and Dark Samus, I decided I'd choose a different name and effect.

Doesn't Dark Samus have a Phazon enhanced variant of the Ice Spreader beam combo? Then again, that could be an idea for the super missile when Dark Shot is selected.

 

[Uffe]

I like the Life-Up suggestion by Quillion for Ness, and the different Beam options by Crystanium .

 

[Quillion]

It's on them if that's what they want to do, but the game shouldn't be encouraging that behavior by allowing characters to swap between multiple play styles all with the simple press of the button while holding the button.

But... how does the presence of a moveset switch encourage sticking with one moveset?

Are you worried that the other movesets would ultimately be pointless because everyone will stick with the objectively best one? That's not going to happen anywhere but tournament players; people will still play Bowser, Dedede, Ike, and Ganondorf for different reasons, so they'll still move swap one character for different reasons too.

Now, if you're worried that if all the movesets on one character will be good, therefore making said character overpowered, you may have a point. That said, frankly I don't give a damn. I just thought it would be a good way of allowing characters to use weapons that many people have demanded.