About Shield-B moves...

[TheTrueBrawler]

But... how does the presence of a moveset switch encourage sticking with one moveset?

When I said "that behavior", I was referring to people sticking to one character solely because they're their favorite outside of Smash Bros. That's what I am worried about with move set swaps. Players who love one of these fighters could get a taste for all the different play styles, but if all of them are available with their favorite character, then why would someone choose anyone else? Let's say for a second that someone played all the Legend of Zelda games and is now picking up Smash Ultimate as their first Smash Bros game. They're immediately going to notice is in the game and probably main him because he's the only one of the three Links in the starting roster. Eventually, he will read a tip on Shield Special moves and discover has more potential other than with the Master Sword. Lets say this particular main finds a love for the Halberd weapon. They get used to a medium ranged play style. They will eventually unlock as they play. He has range as well because his whip has extremely long reach. For all that player knows, he could be really good with by nature, but is someone he knows outside of the game, and almost anything can do, 's halberd can do as well because of the move set swap. Most of them wouldn't even try . Players with these mains just wouldn't have the motivation to try out other characters. Like I said in posts before, eliminating the behavior entirely is impossible, but encouraging it would defiantly be taking the game in the wrong direction, and that's what move set swaps would do. Even if this type of person eventually goes on to tournaments, chances are they have already mastered their main, and they are so far invested into them that they will never switch to another fighter unless their fighter is bottom tier which will be near impossible. That is because they have two or three move sets translating to two or three shots at being as high as possible on a tier list. One of the move sets is bound to get the character into at least C tier.

Are you worried that the other movesets would ultimately be pointless because everyone will stick with the objectively best one? That's not going to happen anywhere but tournament players; people will still play Bowser, Dedede, Ike, and Ganondorf for different reasons, so they'll still move swap one character for different reasons too.

A lot of people who pick up characters to play competitively pick them up for their best qualities. People pick up in Smash Melee because he has an incredible combo game coupled with deadly approach options. Not a lot of people pick him up for his weaker attributes. In the case of a move set swap, people will pick up that character for their best move set pretty much neglecting the others. There are obviously going to be some black sheep in a herd of top tier playing wannabes, but the majority will only choose the objectively best one.

Now, if you're worried that if all the movesets on one character will be good, therefore making said character overpowered, you may have a point. That said, frankly I don't give a damn. I just thought it would be a good way of allowing characters to use weapons that many people have demanded.

I am aware the potential for multiple weapons to be viable in tournaments and know what its consequences would be, but I'm not concerned about that because of something called balance patches.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

If Shield Specials become a thing with more fighters than just , then I would be disappointed if and can't transform into each other once again given that they are the same person and this was a feature in two previous Smash games. Hey, this could work with and too, but I'm not sure on this one given the presence of .

Well Zelda and Sheik are different people now given timelines but what would be cool is if you could turn Sheik into Twilight/BOTW Zelda and Zelda into a new "classic" Sheik.

 

[Crystanium]

Doesn't Dark Samus have a Phazon enhanced variant of the Ice Spreader beam combo? Then again, that could be an idea for the super missile when Dark Shot is selected.

She has the ability to shoot missiles, super missiles, and Phazon missiles. I doubt the last one is actually called that, but in the second battle in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, she fires a missile that encases Samus in Phazon, or just creates a layer of Phazon on the area it hits.

 

[Izanagi97]

She has the ability to shoot missiles, super missiles, and Phazon missiles. I doubt the last one is actually called that, but in the second battle in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, she fires a missile that encases Samus in Phazon, or just creates a layer of Phazon on the area it hits.

It's pretty much a Phazon based version of the Ice Spreader (though it encases the area and whatever it hits in phazon crystals instead of ice)

 

[Quillion]

When I said "that behavior", I was referring to people sticking to one character solely because they're their favorite outside of Smash Bros. That's what I am worried about with move set swaps. Players who love one of these fighters could get a taste for all the different play styles, but if all of them are available with their favorite character, then why would someone choose anyone else?

You still give me no reason to care about your concerns, and frankly, I just don't give a **** if someone will stick with one character over another when both have movesets in the same niche yet the favored character is chosen due to out-of-Smash reasons.

I think moveset swapping is just a cool idea, and nothing you are putting forth is diminishing my opinion. And if someone is going to stick with a moveswapping Link over Simon because the former has a halberd, so ****ing be it. I don't care that they're going to not experiment with other characters since their favored character fills a niche another also does. That's on the player. It doesn't make the idea of Shield-B moveswapping any less awesome.

Besides, it's not like the Canondorf complainers want Ike to disappear from the roster just to have ONE heavy sword user; a lot of people would be happy with Ganondorf getting a full swappable sword based moveset alongside Ike (and Shulk and Cloud).

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

You still give me no reason to care about your concerns, and frankly, I just don't give a **** if someone will stick with one character over another when both have movesets in the same niche yet the favored character is chosen due to out-of-Smash reasons.

I think moveset swapping is just a cool idea, and nothing you are putting forth is diminishing my opinion. And if someone is going to stick with a moveswapping Link over Simon because the former has a halberd, so ****ing be it. I don't care that they're going to not experiment with other characters since their favored character fills a niche another also does. That's on the player. It doesn't make the idea of Shield-B moveswapping any less awesome.

Besides, it's not like the Canondorf complainers want Ike to disappear from the roster just to have ONE heavy sword user; a lot of people would be happy with Ganondorf getting a full swappable sword based moveset alongside Ike (and Shulk and Cloud).

Again, promoting that behavior takes the game in the wrong direction. Did you even read that part? Sakurai shouldn't allow players to stick by one fighter for all of their play style needs. It creates a healthy game if players are motivated to try new things.

As for a sword move set, I think either one would work right now. He was originally a clone of , and that created his move set for games to come. I personally have grown to like it, but I also wouldn't be opposed if they suddenly wanted to flip what they have built upon for 17 years as it makes sense canonically. What I absolutely don't want though is Nintendo allowing players to switch between the two at free will with a Shield B. I have been expressing why it is a bad idea through this whole time, but they're all equally bad. mains have multiple of their play style needs in one character and are demotivated to be adventurous. Like all other move set swapping fighters, it would be a terrible idea. Nintendo should stick to one or the other.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Ya this is a great idea. The moves would need to be really basic ones not full attacks. Switching for Pokémon trainer and zeldat/sheik would be good. Changing beams for samus too.

I really wish you could swim around with the inkling's. The fact that ability isn't in the game is very odd to me.

 

[Blackwolf666]

would this also work in the air? like hold the block button and then press B instead of the other way round. Good way to keep 's mid-air transformation.

: throws Cappy like a boomerang and can footstool off of him
: creates a moment where Donkey Kong is immune to Knockback (only can be activated on ground, nullified if character goes in air and has a long cooldown)
: changes charge shot between 3 options
: switch out blasters. one is the one he used since melee and the other is the one he used in smash 64
: use the glider in air
: Charge... increases the power of next electric attack but takes a second or 2 to use.
: same as DK
: second air dodge
: switches nikita with a tranq gun
: Pulls out a hand axe
: previous side B before smash 4 returns
: sheaths or draws sword.


that's just some of my ideas. too lazy to write one for every character

 

[Izanagi97]

Again, promoting that behavior takes the game in the wrong direction. Did you even read that part? Sakurai shouldn't allow players to stick by one fighter for all of their play style needs. It creates a healthy game if players are motivated to try new things.

As for a sword move set, I think either one would work right now. He was originally a clone of , and that created his move set for games to come. I personally have grown to like it, but I also wouldn't be opposed if they suddenly wanted to flip what they have built upon for 17 years as it makes sense canonically. What I absolutely don't want though is Nintendo allowing players to switch between the two at free will with a Shield B. I have been expressing why it is a bad idea through this whole time, but they're all equally bad. mains have multiple of their play style needs in one character and are demotivated to be adventurous. Like all other move set swapping fighters, it would be a terrible idea. Nintendo should stick to one or the other.

Yeah, only way I can see different movesets being used as a Shield B moves is if they ran on a timer and had a cooldown.

Personally, for Link, a better shield B would be switching between different arrow types to mix things up, though only normal arrows can be picked up

• Normal Arrows: Functions how they currently do, can be picked up off the ground and combined into the other arrow types to enhance them
• Fire Arrows: Stronger than regular arrows and leaves a patch of fire on impact that can rack up damage, double shot leaves a bigger patch
• Ice Arrows: Freezes enemies hit by the arrow, double shot creates a small explosion of Ice on impact that can also freeze enemies
• Bomb Arrows: Moderately powerful explosion, double shot results in a bigger explosion. Do not get hit by a fire attack with it drawn or it will hurt
• Shock Arrows: Paralyzes enemies on hit, double shot makes it behave like it hit water or metal by creating a spherical AoE

Also, gonna point out that you can only fire a few (5 normal shots or 3 double shots) of the non normal arrows before having to switch back to regular arrows so that ammo type can reload

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

If Shield Special just swaps one special move, then that isn't bad. There are suggestions to give and a Shield Special that changes charge shot to one of four different things. I am against move set swaps because it changes everything the character can do and discourages diversity, but I can get behind single move swaps because it only affects that one move and doesn't majorly change the dynamics of the the fighter's play.

Arrow Swaps would actually be a good idea for given that there's a way to properly balance them. You get X amount of each when you spawn and get one every X amount of seconds. Sounds genius. I think I might actually come up with my own list of moves for everyone on the premise of only using these two types of moves for Shield B.
- Temporary Buffs
- Single Move Swaps
- Defensive Moves

Yes I will make an exception for , and probably also / as well because its an entire character swap which may give newer Zelda fans insight on her history as a character.

 

[Quillion]

Again, promoting that behavior takes the game in the wrong direction. Did you even read that part? Sakurai shouldn't allow players to stick by one fighter for all of their play style needs. It creates a healthy game if players are motivated to try new things.

As for a sword move set, I think either one would work right now. He was originally a clone of , and that created his move set for games to come. I personally have grown to like it, but I also wouldn't be opposed if they suddenly wanted to flip what they have built upon for 17 years as it makes sense canonically. What I absolutely don't want though is Nintendo allowing players to switch between the two at free will with a Shield B. I have been expressing why it is a bad idea through this whole time, but they're all equally bad. mains have multiple of their play style needs in one character and are demotivated to be adventurous. Like all other move set swapping fighters, it would be a terrible idea. Nintendo should stick to one or the other.

Explain, in your line of thinking, how:

• Bowser did not demotivate people from trying Donkey Kong and Captain Falcon as other hard-hitting, deceptively fast heavies.
• Link did not demotivate people from trying Samus and ROB as weak melee, strong projectile semi-heavies.
• Mario did not demotivate people from trying Luigi, Diddy, Pac-Man, and WFT as all-purpose middleweights.
• Dedede did not demotivate people from trying Ike and Shulk as massive disjoint heavies.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I’m not saying motivation for those mains to try those specific characters isn’t there, but the thing is if someone wants to try new play styles, not having move set swaps makes them pick a new character. Lets say the Link fan isn’t liking the semi-heavy projectile play style and wants a change of speed specifically for a slow and powerful play style. Not having access to a Claymore will make them pick a new fighter. They can develop a love for a fighter that isn’t from their core franchise. When that happens, if they decide to go back, they may be tempted to try others they haven’t considered before.

You don’t seem to be understanding my point. I have said many times, actively discouraging players to try new things is the opposite direction which a competitive fighting game should be going in.

 

[Quillion]

I’m not saying motivation for those mains to try those specific characters isn’t there, but the thing is if someone wants to try new play styles, not having move set swaps makes them pick a new character. Lets say the Link fan isn’t liking the semi-heavy projectile play style and wants a change of speed specifically for a slow and powerful play style. Not having access to a Claymore will make them pick a new fighter. They can develop a love for a fighter that isn’t from their core franchise. When that happens, if they decide to go back, they may be tempted to try others they haven’t considered before.

You don’t seem to be understanding my point. I have said many times, actively discouraging players to try new things is the opposite direction which a competitive fighting game should be going in.

Oh, I understand your point; I just think your logic is unbelievably bad.

So... if you're saying the motivation is there for Bowser mains to try Donkey Kong, why wouldn't there be a motivation for a Claymore-Link main to try Ike?

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

So... if you're saying the motivation is there for Bowser mains to try Donkey Kong...

You know what, I’m just done. You clearly lack the knowledge of how important it is to read before replying.

 

[Quillion]

TheTrueBrawler : I'm trying get what you're saying. If Link can change his moveset to use a slow, strong claymore, you believe that would be grounds for a Link player to never try out Ike, Dedede, Shulk, or Cloud. Because, hey, what's the point of playing another heavy disjoint character, when Link can already be a heavy disjoint character?

I just think you're entirely wrong, because by your logic, no one will play as Falcon and Donkey Kong when Bowser is already the hard-hitting, deceptively fast brawling heavy.

 

[Izanagi97]

You know what, I’m just done. You clearly lack the knowledge of how important it is to read before replying.

Yeah, I don't think I have the energy to explain to him that the characters he mentioned have different roles compared to each other and giving one character a moveset swap that is basically two different play styles (in this case, giving Link Ike's power while letting him keep his zoning game) would mean that if one wants to switch from one play style (such as Link's zoning and turtling moveset) to another one (such as Ike's bait and punish moveset), all they'd have to do is press shield b instead of switching to a different character (I was using kurogane hammer to look the playstyles up).

Anyways, going back to shield B ideas, I wonder if a good one for Shulk could be Monado Purge (assuming that doesn't become a new neutral B and Monado arts were to be moved to shield b) which could function as a ranged debuff (though it has to be charged and is fairly laggy)

 

[Quillion]

Yeah, I don't think I have the energy to explain to him that the characters he mentioned have different roles compared to each other and giving one character a moveset swap that is basically two different play styles (in this case, giving Link Ike's power while letting him keep his zoning game) would mean that if one wants to switch from one play style (such as Link's zoning and turtling moveset) to another one (such as Ike's bait and punish moveset), all they'd have to do is press shield b instead of switching to a different character (I was using kurogane hammer to look the playstyles up).

So why can't Claymore-Link have a different role from Ike, then?

 

[Crystanium]

TheTrueBrawler
Regarding Samus and Dark Samus with the ability to switch effects for Charge Shot, how does that hurt diversity? What do you mean by diversity? Are you suggesting this would potentially cause those who use Samus or Dark Samus to not bother with other characters? I can understand that it can change everything a character can do, but look at Shulk. Each Monado Art affects how Shulk attacks and moves.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Again, promoting that behavior takes the game in the wrong direction. Did you even read that part? Sakurai shouldn't allow players to stick by one fighter for all of their play style needs. It creates a healthy game if players are motivated to try new things.

As for a sword move set, I think either one would work right now. He was originally a clone of , and that created his move set for games to come. I personally have grown to like it, but I also wouldn't be opposed if they suddenly wanted to flip what they have built upon for 17 years as it makes sense canonically. What I absolutely don't want though is Nintendo allowing players to switch between the two at free will with a Shield B. I have been expressing why it is a bad idea through this whole time, but they're all equally bad. mains have multiple of their play style needs in one character and are demotivated to be adventurous. Like all other move set swapping fighters, it would be a terrible idea. Nintendo should stick to one or the other.

What the ****? What do you mean Sakurai shouldn’t allow players to stick with one fighter? The point of the game is so you can play in whatever manner with whatever you character you want lol. Prohibition in a multiplayer game without any deliberation for pacing in the game is bad design lol. Don’t speak for Sakurai.

Swapping fighters is just fine. They had Zelda/Sheik, Samus / Zero Suit Samus Zeku in Street Fighter 5, Evil Ryu / Ken transformation for Ryu in Marvel vs Capcom, Dark Phoenix in MvC3.

The situations in which characters change do vary, but given that smash is an open ended franchise and emphasizes chaos then the transformation motif is s good fit.

Pokémon Trainer is literally 3 characters, and given the reception of the characters return, I can’t say that this was bad design, nor a big concern. People are happy playing with who they want.

 

[Ridrool64]

Would it be fine for other potential newcomers to have a "Shield Special?" I ask because I gave Arle a Shield Special.

 

[Izanagi97]

Would it be fine for other potential newcomers to have a "Shield Special?" I ask because I gave Arle a Shield Special.

I'd say yes because I decided that if Ken makes it in as an echo, his Shield B should be his Heat Rush V-Trigger

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

TheTrueBrawler
Regarding Samus and Dark Samus with the ability to switch effects for Charge Shot, how does that hurt diversity? What do you mean by diversity? Are you suggesting this would potentially cause those who use Samus or Dark Samus to not bother with other characters? I can understand that it can change everything a character can do, but look at Shulk. Each Monado Art affects how Shulk attacks and moves.

Actually, I was an advocate for single move swaps. If Shield Special were to only mess with and 's Charge Shot, then it both would not change their dynamic, and show more about their character from their main games. The only thing that would change with this particular move is the consequence of getting hit by their Neutral Special whether or not it is fully charged. In doing this, players can actually learn a little more about the Metroid series. If done right, single move swaps can be a win-win.

And while this post has made me have to consider just now, the Monado does change the dynamics of his character, but there's two catches. The first catch is that the moves and hit boxes stay the same across every Monado Art. The other and more notable caveat is that each one has individual life times and cool downs. One player can't stick to their favorite 100% of the time, but have to turn it off and either use a different Monado Art or no Monado Art. People can only get so much out of the individual play styles with him. Of course, the player may stick by because his stats are constantly having to change with the times, but if someone just likes one of his Monado Arts, they will have to find a new fighter to essentially play with it all match.

 

[Quillion]

You know what? I'd rather we just discuss moveset swap/transformation on this thread.

I want to just discuss more ideas for Shield-Bs here.

 

[GolisoPower]

Idea for a Pokemon Trainer Shield-B:

Battle Items.

By pressing and holding Shield-B and flicking the joystick a certain direction, the Trainer will give the active Pokemon a buff. X Attack increases the Pokemon's attack power, X Defense decreases damage and knockback taken, X Speed increases movement speed and X Accuracy has a chance to hit the opponent during invincibility frames.

There would be downsides to this: unlike in the source material, only one Battle Item can be active at a time. Also, X Accuracy goes on cooldown once a character is hit during invincibility frames for a set amount of time based on how long the item is active.

 

[Quillion]

Idea for a Pokemon Trainer Shield-B:

Battle Items.

By pressing and holding Shield-B and flicking the joystick a certain direction, the Trainer will give the active Pokemon a buff. X Attack increases the Pokemon's attack power, X Defense decreases damage and knockback taken, X Speed increases movement speed and X Accuracy has a chance to hit the opponent during invincibility frames.

There would be downsides to this: unlike in the source material, only one Battle Item can be active at a time. Also, X Accuracy goes on cooldown once a character is hit during invincibility frames for a set amount of time based on how long the item is active.

I don't want to keep the Trainer's Pokémon in such way that they don't have a full four-special set, though.

I think PT's Shield B should just be Pokémon Switch.

 

[GolisoPower]

I don't want to keep the Trainer's Pokémon in such way that they don't have a full four-special set, though.

I think PT's Shield B should just be Pokémon Switch.

I respect your taste in what you would want in a PT Shield-B.

I personally wanted to add something that was also a big part of Pokémon battles, and that was items, but if you want four specials in a single Pokémon without Down B being swap, then that’s alright.

 

[Crystanium]

Actually, I was an advocate for single move swaps. If Shield Special were to only mess with and 's Charge Shot, then it both would not change their dynamic, and show more about their character from their main games. The only thing that would change with this particular move is the consequence of getting hit by their Neutral Special whether or not it is fully charged. In doing this, players can actually learn a little more about the Metroid series. If done right, single move swaps can be a win-win.

And while this post has made me have to consider just now, the Monado does change the dynamics of his character, but there's two catches. The first catch is that the moves and hit boxes stay the same across every Monado Art. The other and more notable caveat is that each one has individual life times and cool downs. One player can't stick to their favorite 100% of the time, but have to turn it off and either use a different Monado Art or no Monado Art. People can only get so much out of the individual play styles with him. Of course, the player may stick by because his stats are constantly having to change with the times, but if someone just likes one of his Monado Arts, they will have to find a new fighter to essentially play with it all match.

What's a "single move swap"?

Changing Charge Shot for Samus and Scatter Shot for Dark Samus would only really change the visuals and effect properties, not the hitboxes themselves. The only one that would be different would be Dark Samus' Incendiary Shot, but even then, that could be altered to retain the same hitbox. I would be fine with Charge Shot and Scatter Shot returning to their originals, although that wouldn't make any canonical sense. What reason is there for the Monado Arts having a time limit aside from balance for game play in SSB?

 

[Quillion]

What's a "single move swap"?

Changing Charge Shot for Samus and Scatter Shot for Dark Samus would only really change the visuals and effect properties, not the hitboxes themselves. The only one that would be different would be Dark Samus' Incendiary Shot, but even then, that could be altered to retain the same hitbox. I would be fine with Charge Shot and Scatter Shot returning to their originals, although that wouldn't make any canonical sense. What reason is there for the Monado Arts having a time limit aside from balance for game play in SSB?

I think he's referring to just changing the projectile shot out of a neutral-B.

Personally, I think that's a rather underwhelming use of a potential new input.

 

[Crystanium]

I think he's referring to just changing the projectile shot out of a neutral-B.

Personally, I think that's a rather underwhelming use of a potential new input.

Considering it's just shielding and pressing B, there's really not much else that could be done for those like Samus and Dark Samus. The only thing I could see happening, at least for Samus, is some sort of limited Beam Burst. Shield+B could be used to fill up the Aeion gauge for Samus to fire this instead of using Charge Shot. When Beam Burst is activated, the charge beam in Metroid: Samus Returns cannot be used. Beam Burst seems more powerful than Samus' charge beam, since it can destroy certain enemies that aren't even possible to destroy with her current beams she acquires.

 

[Quillion]

Considering it's just shielding and pressing B, there's really not much else that could be done for those like Samus and Dark Samus. The only thing I could see happening, at least for Samus, is some sort of limited Beam Burst. Shield+B could be used to fill up the Aeion gauge for Samus to fire this instead of using Charge Shot. When Beam Burst is activated, the charge beam in Metroid: Samus Returns cannot be used. Beam Burst seems more powerful than Samus' charge beam, since it can destroy certain enemies that aren't even possible to destroy with her current beams she acquires.

That could actually work! But I would do it this way: Samus could build up Aeion by attacking opponents while getting larger Aeion boosts on shield parry (reference to the Melee Counter). Shield-B would activate Beam Burst, which continuously drains and can't be deactivated, but it replaces the Neutral-B until it drains.

I personally wanted three Aeion abilities, Beam Burst, Lightning Armor, and Phase Drift, to be combined into a new Final Smash, but Beam Burst would be cool as a Shield-B too.

 

[Crystanium]

That could actually work! But I would do it this way: Samus could build up Aeion by attacking opponents while getting larger Aeion boosts on shield parry (reference to the Melee Counter). Shield-B would activate Beam Burst, which continuously drains and can't be deactivated, but it replaces the Neutral-B until it drains.

I personally wanted three Aeion abilities, Beam Burst, Lightning Armor, and Phase Drift, to be combined into a new Final Smash, but Beam Burst would be cool as a Shield-B too.

I like it! I'm not sure if you're saying the Aeion gauge would drain, even if Samus wasn't using neutral special after activating Beam Burst. Is that what you're saying? I'd prefer it to not drain when not being used after activated if that is what you're saying. But, that's just my preference.

In my previous post, I had assumed Shield+B would have to apply strictly to neutral B. It doesn't appear that way from the ideas of others. That's not to say I'd be expanding the application of Shield+B to other specials if one special is already taken. It would have to be strictly for a single special. Thus, while Samus could have Beam Burst, that's all she could do. Other specials wouldn't activate any other Aeion ability. I'm not sure what I'd plan on giving DS and ZSS, but I have one for Ridley.


Energy Shield
In Metroid: Other M, Ridley is capable of generating a spherical energy shield around himself. The shield appears invisible unless attacked, and there's purplish aura that indicates this shield. The way Samus gets rid of it in Metroid: Other M is either by waiting it out, or firing a super missile. If Ridley could access this at any time by using Shield+B, then that would be a balance issue. While Ridley isn't even at half his health in the linked video, I thought perhaps at around 100% damage Ridley could activate this shield once per stock and have a duration of 20 seconds. It wouldn't completely negate attacks.

Energy Shield wouldn't be like Shulk's Monado Art Shield where he takes 78% less knock-back, 67% less damage, increased shield health by 150% and lower air speed and movement. Rather, only damage and knock-back would be affected. Energy Shield would cut damage by a third (0.3x) and cut knock-back by two-fifths (0.4x). As an example, an unused Charge Shot deals 26% damage. It would only deal 18.2% damage. Captain Falcon's knee of justice has a base knock-back of 30. This means the base knock-back would be 18.

 

[smashingDoug]

Spin attack, up is now the glider.
Switch between the fire and ice arrows
Swap masks, transformation or status boosts

 

[Quillion]

Not to be a jerk, but I have some criticism for this.

Spin attack, up is now the glider.

Like we said earlier, Shield-Bs being actual attacks will be a dangerous prospect because it will unnecessarily punish the opponent taking the offensive.

Switch between the fire and ice arrows

Like I said before, only swapping the functionality of one move is kinda underwhelming.

Swap masks, transformation or status boosts

Although I did disagree with TheTrueBrawler on transformation/moveset swap Shield-Bs not working, I think giving too much transformation options would be a bit too much. If all movesets were viable, it would be a cheap way of screwing up matchups in the middle of a match, and if only one moveset is viable, the others would feel pointless.

I think it should be limited to just one transformation/moveset swap.

 

[Necro'lic]

Like we said earlier, Shield-Bs being actual attacks will be a dangerous prospect because it will unnecessarily punish the opponent taking the offensive.

I honestly don't get this criticism. How is a Shield-B move different as an out of shield option than just any other move in general? Why not criticize out of shield moves in general?

 

[smashingDoug]

Not to be a jerk, but I have some criticism for this.


Like we said earlier, Shield-Bs being actual attacks will be a dangerous prospect because it will unnecessarily punish the opponent taking the offensive.



Like I said before, only swapping the functionality of one move is kinda underwhelming.


Although I did disagree with TheTrueBrawler on transformation/moveset swap Shield-Bs not working, I think giving too much transformation options would be a bit too much. If all movesets were viable, it would be a cheap way of screwing up matchups in the middle of a match, and if only one moveset is viable, the others would feel pointless.

I think it should be limited to just one transformation/moveset swap.

1 you can already attack out of shield soviets not much of an issue really

2 underwhelming sure but not confusing or overpowering

3 and having a move set swap or two or three weapons wouldn’t screw the match up

 

[Quillion]

I honestly don't get this criticism. How is a Shield-B move different as an out of shield option than just any other move in general? Why not criticize out of shield moves in general?

I suppose it isn't a bad idea in itself, but Up-Bs and Grabs serve as OoS reversals well because they are effective at getting opponents off or setting up for moderate damage dealing, yet they are also very punishable.

Maybe it's because we talked about Shield-B being a defensive combo starter, which again, I am very much against.

 

[Necro'lic]

I suppose it isn't a bad idea in itself, but Up-Bs and Grabs serve as OoS reversals well because they are effective at getting opponents off or setting up for moderate damage dealing, yet they are also very punishable.

Maybe it's because we talked about Shield-B being a defensive combo starter, which again, I am very much against.

I still don't see the problem here. Remember that due to the nature of button inputs, you can easily just shield button+special button and it works like any old special.

Honestly, I think your gripe here has to do with the word "shield" more than anything, when in reality, you could simply shield-B without the shield ever popping up anyway.

 

[Quillion]

I still don't see the problem here. Remember that due to the nature of button inputs, you can easily just shield button+special button and it works like any old special.

Honestly, I think your gripe here has to do with the word "shield" more than anything, when in reality, you could simply shield-B without the shield ever popping up anyway.

I'm not worried about that. Shield-B should be done without having to wait for the shield to pop up, and even in the air, they can make it so that you can only Shield-B on the first few frames of airdodge for leniency and balance.

I'm more worried about how it might become overly powerful because shield will be canceled into it. The present OoS reversal options have significant punishability so that baiting an OoS means something, but Shield-B could easily be overpowered or redundant depending on how punishable it is.

However, I probably should have taken into account that some of the V-Triggers in SF5 are attacks. As I do think Shield-B has more potential emulating those mechanics, maybe a few can work as attacks. But definitely not all of them.

 

[Necro'lic]

I'm not worried about that. Shield-B should be done without having to wait for the shield to pop up, and even in the air, they can make it so that you can only Shield-B on the first few frames of airdodge for leniency and balance.

I'm more worried about how it might become overly powerful because shield will be canceled into it. The present OoS reversal options have significant punishability so that baiting an OoS means something, but Shield-B could easily be overpowered or redundant depending on how punishable it is.

However, I probably should have taken into account that some of the V-Triggers in SF5 are attacks. As I do think Shield-B has more potential emulating those mechanics, maybe a few can work as attacks. But definitely not all of them.

Well then your worries are sort of unfounded, because if you just treat shield-B like any other attack with the usual stuff like startup, endlag, etc., then your problems kinda just go away.

For example, imagine if Link's spin attack on Shield-B had above average startup time. At that point, it isn't a reversal move really, but just another move Link has. Don't treat Shield-B moves like they can only be reversal type moves, because that's kinda boring honestly if literally every character had a reversal move that was treated the exact same mapped to an attack button. The only universal reversal (tongue twisters lol) that really is here is perfect shield, and that isn't an attack anyway.

 

[Tornado_Man]

: Uses the Power Gear from his upcoming game. For a short period of time (around 10 seconds), his Mega Buster does increased damage and his other specials are powered up. His Rush Coil launches further, Leaf Shield spins faster causing more damage, Crash Bomber does increased shield damage, and Metal Blades travel faster. Has a cooldown period similar to in MM11.