However, this is ARTIFICIALLY INTRODUCING COUNTERS. This isn't finding a counterpick character for a troublesome matchup you've known for since the game came out, this is trying to find a counterpick for some new guy who most people have very little matchup experience against. It takes A LONG TIME to flesh out accurate matchups, and even after you know said characters matchups, you now have to learn how to use the counter of said character (which also takes time), ultimately hurting the metagame of your original main.
Well, I did say it'd be a long time in testing before they're implemented. I think someone said 8 months?
And when multiple characters fit this? Most likely, the entire process needed to make custom characters will be open source. That means that creating characters will ultimately become glorified texture hacking. (something that few are great at, but that has nothing to do with making balanced characters. All it does is make them look pretty). What if the said "flawless" character is just really unpopular. Should we include them anyway because they're well done?
Even if they are flawless, it's up to the community and ultimately the WBR to decide what gets in or out. But I am bias for Melee/Forbidden7 because of the reasons stated on previous posts.
Lets see, that's a character who we've had over a year of experience fighting against to learn his bad matchups (and even turn around previously favorable matchups). Not only that, but we had to rebalance him ANYWAY in brawl+. It's not the same as purposefully introducing a bad matchup onto a specific character.
It's basically the same process.
1) Introduce him/her to Brawl.
2) Examine match ups and see where he is in terms of tiers (I don't really like that term...)
3) Balance accordingly.
Except vBrawl stops at step 2. Brawl+ is the step 3. If customs were introduced and followed step 1 and 2, then Brawl+ can do the step 3. Of course, like you said... it'll take a while for a character to flesh out its meta game (step 1 and 2). But once we see clearly where the custom is compared to the rest of the cast, step 3 will be much easier.
**Complete curiosity... what's a single nerf/buff in Brawl+ used on a character that counters a
single character but not the rest of the cast? Basically, which buff/nerf helped a character in a single match up and only a single match up.
Marth players should have to deal with this sudden massive disadvantage thrown at them. It's hardly "letting things sit for a while" to say "well, this new character ***** you so you're all gonna have to go learn X character because I wanna play supermarthcounterman"
It depends on how far you go. Honestly, Marth is really really good with relatively few bad match ups. What makes you think the new kid on the block will slaughter Marths left and right? What about other match ups?
I find it quite insulting that you would even say this. First, I don't even play Marth. He's a hypothetical scenario and I thought it would be fairly obvious. Second, even if they DO have MULTIPLE secondaries, it's stilll possible that they'd have to learn ANOTHER one to deal with the new character effectively. And matchup balancing goes both ways. To prevent a matchup from being completely unwinnable (which is one of the balance points of brawl+, we're not going for perfection, but this is perfetly reasonable) we would still have to buff the negatively affected character somewhere to help them deal with this new overwhelming threat. And yet this will still affect their matchups with EVERYONE ELSE, and still cause the instability that I was talking about. A metagame's evolution comes from individual characters being explored in depth, not from constantly introducing new characters. It comes from finding new ways to exploit the known weaknesses of characters (which were discovered months ago), and bolster your characters' strengths, not from FINDING the weaknesses and strengths of new characters (which repeats the step that we had already completed at the begining). Every time you introduce a new character, you slow down the development of other character specific strategies, as everyone is focusing on the new guy. Maybe this MIGHT be good if the current metagame stagnates, but WE HAVEN'T EVEN FINALIZED THE CHARACTERS YET!
Okay, I really didn't mean to take this personally. Like you said, it was more of a hypothetical scenario and I was going with it. The "you" in my post was not actually "you" if you know what I mean. Pronouns and all...
And finding strength and weaknesses is just another process to go through. I didn't say it'll happen overnight. I said it'll be down the road, most likely when we'll have a final version of the character changes.
Just out of curiosity, how many additional characters do you think would be implemented? How long would each of these characters take to balance (note that characters would be added one at a time)? How many viable candidates for additional characters would be made during this very large timespan? How would we decide which ones to include of said candidates. You seem to think that there would only be a few "flawless characters," but I highly disagree. If word got out that the characters you made would actually be able to be played in tournament, everyone with the knowledge to do so would be making custom characters (some would even LEARN how to do it, as a few have learned to use PSA with pretty much no prior knowledge). Your criteria is still too broad to narrow it down to one character as the only possible candidate within any reasonable timespan. Flesh out your selection process a little, I'm open to reasonable suggestions (I do WANT custom characters, it's just that I've lined up a pretty convincing "devil's advocate" arguement imo)
I want to know how many characters
you think are going to be implemented. I was thinking of whatever amount of viable Melee/Forbidden7 characters.
Whatever customs people make, it'll be for their own fun. We're talking about WBR approved characters which mean only a few teams would be able to work on them. The community can offer input and ideas as well as testing, but the WBR is not going to realistically test every single custom that gets submitted.
Heck, with the way WBR is now we'll have 0 customs. I call that
strict. So when they give the green light for customs, you think the WBR will allow any and all customs? WBR will always be strict... so we should just compromise with a few characters (lulz).
