A Troublesome Foe...Lucas!

[ORly?]

My training partner from Melee has decided to ditch Ness to move on the the apparently far superior Lucas. For as long as I can remember we have been intensely evenly matched but I win 9/10 matches (just barely every time though). Since the release of Brawl though, the tables have turned. It just seems that no matter which new stategy I try to employ, he is one step ahead of me. It's not a matter of him being better than me. With any other combination of characters I don't have too much of a problem with him. But he mains Lucas and I main Zelda, and it seems that no matter how far in advance I see his attacks coming, there's nothing I can do to counter it. I can't Dins Fire due to his magnet, and his attacks have more range than mine...Help me Please!!!


Here are some videos...More to come! (I will probably post those on the video thread though)
Zeus (Zelda) vs Guts (Lucas) 1
Zeus (Zelda) vs Guts (Lucas) 2

 

[SMBEffect]

I've played Lucas quite a few times, so I think I can contribute a little:

Don't be so predictable with Dins Fire. People, myself included, tend to sometimes use it when both players are camping. It's pretty to pull off when he is in the middle of PK Thunder, thought. Considering Ness and Lucas can heal themselves, using Dins too much is one of the worst thing you can do. You can't be predictable. You don't have to completely stop using it, just use it sparingly.

Lucas, unfortunately, is fairly small, meaning he's not all that easy to sweetspot with Fair/Bair. However, I do find it easy to hit him with Nair or Dair, considering he can be fairly defenseless in the air.

Well, some of this could be completely wrong, but this is what I've gotten from playing Lucas. Hope I helped!

 

[Luthien]

You need to be more specific with your problems. What is he hitting you with? Why is he able to hit you with that move (what's making you open enough for that move to connect)? What are that move's weaknesses (start up lag? attack lag? weak? reflectable?)? How can you use those weaknesses (are there any moves you can interrupt with a dsmash or a jab)? Record a match with him and watch it. Notice what he hits you with, and what you hit him with.

Oh, and by the by, Zeldas Dtilt cancel's Lucas's PK Fire.

EDIT: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158672

Read the Ness section. He plays a lot like Lucas, so you can relate a lot of what you see in there to your gameplay.

 

[rampant_apart]

Also, watch out for that up smash of his. I only mention this because Zelda's defense from below is so weak and she is so light.

 

[S2]

Yeah, recording matches is a great idea.

I record every good match I can (especially when you get your @-- kicked). Learn what doesn't work so that you can avoid doing those things.

Luthien, do you know if the d-tilt cancel's Ness' PK fire as well?

 

[TheSpindoctor]

Also, watch out for that up smash of his. I only mention this because Zelda's defense from below is so weak and she is so light.

Yeah I agree with this. I wanna punch my brother in the face whenever he hits me with that. It seems like it might be a little too powerful with alot too much range

 

[Luthien]

Luthien, do you know if the d-tilt cancel's Ness' PK fire as well?

Kind of. Dtilt doesn't really cancel it as it does stop it in it's tracks. Lucas's PK fire will still explode, but it'll sort of pass over Zelda. For some reason she's invulnerable to it when it happens. That said, if anyone is above/behind Zelda when she dtilts Lucas's PK fire, they'll still get hit.

When you hit Ness's, it'll detonate and the fire pillar will appear, but the pillar can still hit Zelda if she walks into it. Ness can still go through it no problem, though. Sometimes the pillar is close enough to Zelda after she dtilts it to still get a hit in though. You should reflect it if you can, if you can't, you should shield. I'd only use dtilt if the Lucas is PK fire spamming and you need to save your shield.

 

[shadowzero]

^Oh man, couldn't agree more. I was beat in a tournament by Lucas using that dreaded up-smash...>_>

 

[ORly?]

Oh, and by the by, Zeldas Dtilt cancel's Lucas's PK Fire.

O.o
I never knew that! The biggest problem with PK Fire for me (and sorry for not being very specific before) is he short hops before doing it most of the time, so if i do manage to get close enough to him before he does it to reflect it, it just goes over his head and he is ready to punish. He likes to make it difficut for me to approach because his PK Fires can hit me quite easily due to zelda's height, but when I try to approach from the air (whether from above or next to) he nairs. Lucas' nair is a constant headache for me because unless I sweetspot the dair or fair/bair, it gets me, and worse, puts me in a position to combo. I basically have to try to get him above me to juggle/uair. Once I get him off balance I can generally rack up a decent amount of damage. But if we are on opposite sides of the stage and both ready, I usually end up making him make the first move (as his dash attack has more range than mine) and trying to react accordingly. Also, I have a hard time KOing him as the only real moves I can consistently connect with are uair and dsmash. I would love to put up some vids but I don't even know where to begin, I've never made any kind of smash vid before. Thanks for the help though everyone!

 

[therukus]

Learn to perfectly space yourself at all times just out of range from pk fire unless you're going to attack. Try moving in short hopped air dodges.

 

[Ztarfish]

Just a test:
Ness
Lucas
Olimar
Zelda
Link
Toon Link
Mario

AHA! I thought everyone had just gone insane.

 

[sFoster]

For one Din's Fire will Eat pkfire and keep traveling toward him.
Try not to throw more than one in a row though, otherwise he'll catch on and get himself life.

Also don't be afraid to use Dins when he's falling past the edge.. if he tries to absorb them for life and his altitude is already low it will just result in his own death, so he's forced into a tight spot here.

Also learn to use short hop n-air and incorporate that into your approach, along with dsmash.

 

[Luthien]

Good grief.

^^;

It's been a LOOOONG day.

 

[ORly?]

Yes, I too was wondering what dHalo meant.
These are all great tips, thanks for the help, I'm gonna head off to training mode to test out some tactics. Keep 'em coming!

 

[shadowzero]

"DHalo"?

New advanced technique I don't know about?

Luthien, it's an April Fool's joke. Z e l d a is switched with the name Wisdom, along with some other terms. Just ignore it for now XD

 

[ORly?]

Oh haha now I kinda feel stupid.
I Assume "halo" = s m a s h
Whats with all of the switching out the names for other names?

It's making it pretty difficult for me to read through some posts smoothly, especially when I don't know who "kitty" (I assume F4lc0?) or some of the other names are...hhhmmm

 

[shadowzero]

Eh, Smashboards was just trying to be funny, I guess. And yes, halo means s m a s h.

And I'm pretty sure kitty means f a l c o as well.

 

[Gates]

"DHalo"?

New advanced technique I don't know about?

He means "DSm@sh". The April Fool's joke this year was to edit the word filter to change common words to others.

 

[popsofctown]

Haha they got you!!!

 

[ORly?]

haha indeed they did. CURSE THAT NNTEN!!!
on and off the field he's sticking it to me...

 

[Luthien]

Oh, dear lord...

...sorry. Lol. I get it now. You can stop replying...

 

[Wildfire393]

Personally, my tech against Lucas is Zelda's Down-B.

That's right. Sheik is definitely better against Lucas than Zelda is. Zelda loses a lot when she can't use her Din's Fire.

 

[ORly?]

I actually wanted to do that but I wasn't sure if I would be shooting myself in the foot. I'm glad to hear it has worked for you in the past.
The last tournament I played in I went to the finals with Z eld a and in the third round (finals were best 2 of 3) I accidentally changed to Sh iek and finished the round with her. Playing as Shi ek gave me the upper hand and I was able to easily win. I wasn't sure if that was just because it was our third round though.

 

[shadowzero]

I actually wanted to do that but I wasn't sure if I would be shooting myself in the foot. I'm glad to hear it has worked for you in the past.
The last tournament I played in I went to the finals with Z eld a and in the third round (finals were best 2 of 3) I accidentally changed to Sh iek and finished the round with her. Playing as Shi ek gave me the upper hand and I was able to easily win. I wasn't sure if that was just because it was our third round though.

Wait, what tournament were you in? I might have actually been there XD

 

[Smashbros_7]

My training partner from Melee has decided to ditch Ness to move on the the apparently far superior Lucas. For as long as I can remember we have been intensely evenly matched but I win 9/10 matches (just barely every time though). Since the release of Brawl though, the tables have turned. It just seems that no matter which new stategy I try to employ, he is one step ahead of me. It's not a matter of him being better than me. With any other combination of characters I don't have too much of a problem with him. But he mains Lucas and I main Zelda, and it seems that no matter how far in advance I see his attacks coming, there's nothing I can do to counter it. I can't Dins Fire due to his magnet, and his attacks have more range than mine...Help me Please!!!

Never diss Ness. Never. Ness made it out of Bottom Tier too you know.

Ness is equal to Lucas in my opinion. (Ness has an air game far superior to Lucas, his Upsmash can actually hit the opponent consistently and is back throw is a annoying killer indeed.

Zelda sucks against the Psi superstars, but if you want to beat them... Then you should play offense and donèt let them walk all over you.

 

[ORly?]

Wait, what tournament were you in? I might have actually been there XD

It was a Game Crazy Tourny in Mesa AZ

And I haven't gotten the opportunity to try out anything you all have suggested against a human player yet so I guess I'll update this weekend on how it all goes.

PS. Yes I am quite proud of Ness pulling out of bottom tier again (he ruled in 64) but it seems that everything Ness lacks...Lucas has. Maybe its just because I have been training against Ness for the past few years and Lucas is still new to me, but Lucas alone is the BANE OF MY EXISTANCE! (Him and Lolimar actually, but that's a different story)

 

[rampant_apart]

Personally, my tech against Lucas is Zelda's Down-B.

That's right. Sheik is definitely better against Lucas than Zelda is. Zelda loses a lot when she can't use her Din's Fire.

Switching to Sheik? I'll try that, definitely sounds like something that could work.

 

[TheLake]

Switching to shiek!? *gasps* Blasphomy!!!

 

[S2]

Lol Lake.

I hope for the day when Zelda and Sheik players will come together and realize there's nothing wrong with switching.

 

[Gates]

The only problem I have with switching is waiting for the game to load Sheik's data. That's definitely the worst part and if it weren't for that, I'd definitely switch more often.

 

[ORly?]

Uhgreed
although the transformation time has allowed me to dodge some crucial attacks due to its nondefinite loading time (opponent anticipates wrong)...not useful real competitively, but has helped casually

 

[Darkmusician]

My training partner from Melee has decided to ditch Ness to move on the the apparently far superior Lucas. For as long as I can remember we have been intensely evenly matched but I win 9/10 matches (just barely every time though). Since the release of Brawl though, the tables have turned. It just seems that no matter which new stategy I try to employ, he is one step ahead of me. It's not a matter of him being better than me. With any other combination of characters I don't have too much of a problem with him. But he mains Lucas and I main Zelda, and it seems that no matter how far in advance I see his attacks coming, there's nothing I can do to counter it. I can't Dins Fire due to his magnet, and his attacks have more range than mine...Help me Please!!!

Got any vids?

 

[Tyr_03]

I doubt this is of tons of use but Zelda's Nayru's Love move can reflect some of Lucas's regular Psy attacks such as his Forward Tilt. I don't know what other moves it can reflect but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

 

[ORly?]

I just got my Gamebridge in the mail yesterday...so the vids are up today!
I edited my first post to include the first two matches between him and me. I will try to get the better matches up later.

 

[PK-ow!]

You have to stop trying to land the perfect Fsmash, or so many lightning kicks, and just defend yourself. You have all you need to beat up Lucas if he comes for you. You were aggroing too much.
Walk, don't run. Your Nayru's Love stops PK fire. You can reactively use aerials on Lucas when he goes there, because he has less reach than you. That is, if you stay grounded most of the match, he'll be the one afraid to jump. If he approaches, just do what Zelda does - dodge, reposition, and attack. Shield grab is there if he is direct, and Zelda can punish anything that gets any fancier than that. Dodge Lucas' other aerials (and then Fsmash). If he gets close, rather than spacing him away, toss him around with d-tilt or f-tilt; it's you who stands to pile up more damage in a scuffle. The only thing you have to watch out for is the rope snake. If things get crazy, you can clear him with up-tilt or D-smash whenever you want.

He somehow has you thinking you're at the disadvantage, but you're not. Zelda has the upper hand, here. But if you get dodgy when he's close, you're giving it up, and if you go aggro on him, a character with all kinds of reactive power - and with Zelda no less - you're going to lose.

@Tyr_08: WHAAA??? Until this point, A moves had no interactive properties of that sort with special attacks. For all my trusting nature, they do say around here "vid or it didn't happen," and I am one to do as the Romans do.

 

[blink777]

My lord, NAYRU'S LOVE dangit!

And not only to reflect that PK Fire (and don't be afraid to reflect some that won't make it back to him: you'll probably frighten him into backing out of his approach), but as an attack. Use it when you're in an awkwardly close position, particularly when he's behind you. It's especially useful when you've accidentally spaced yourself too close and need a quick out. And of course, punish his bad rolls and whatnot.

Do some sort of edgeguarding. I know Din's Fire can be scary against PSI Shield, but just try not to be too predictable/spammy with it, and it's not that bad. Heck, jump out after him. As PK-ow said, you outrange him by far in the air, so make use of it.

Also as PK-ow said, a little too much Fsmash. There were a few great times you used it (out of a dtilt and when he was bouncing off the wall on Corneria), but try mixing some more tilts in.

Lastly, a couple mindgames or outright attacks with Farore's Wind can be useful. I'm not going to suggest you go all out like some of us do, but just try a couple to mess up his game. Just don't try to hit him with it to interrupt his USmash: you will die.

Best of luck!

 

[Rejjae]

If you throw Din's fire out while he's off the edge and still able to recover if he absorbs it, you can let it fly past him so he loses altitude from trying to B-down it, forcing him to use B-up to recover. From there, you can edgehog if he goes in that direction, punish him during the lag if he tries to get on the stage, or make a bold move and attempt to dair him.

 

[Tmnt1837]

As said above. You need to learn the wonders of nayru's love. It is one my favorite attacks with zelda. Invsibilty frames and it hits on both sides and comes out fast. One of zelda's best attacks.

You also got too scared to use your dins fire. When he is coming to approach you with a nair like he does so often he will have to slow down even just a little bit because he has to take his thumb of the stick to nair you can figure out the timing and range of a min length dins fire to interrupt it or a diagonal up ftilt.

Don't try and lightning kick so much. Those can set you use in some bad spots since zelda or any character for that matter doesn't want to be floating above the head of a lucas.

Also a jab can really throw off a persons timing. Just throw it in there. It has decent range won't do much damage but has a little knock back that can lead into a dash attack which can be lead into a nair at low percents. But it they approach you can use it to stop them since it is quick. Consider it.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Based off of watching the first video, I can tell right away what your problem is. You need to D-Smash more. You had plenty of moments to punish him with it.

Also, although it is a great move, it's much too hard to Fair or Bair Lucas. I wouldn't even bother, especially against an opponent as skilled as yours.

 

[N-Plus]

Well Zelda is my first main, and Lucas just so happens to be the second!, I find beaten Lucas w/ Zelda no too hard. His PK fire is easily reflected, and main of Zelda smashes are faster. We careful when using Dins fire, cause a good Lucas ( like me) might absorb it. Just rely on her good magic smashes and watch carefully of Lucas' smashes. the are slow but last a while!