A question on training someone else.

[1337-Zero]

I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

A friend of mine is really trying to get better at Brawl. He understands all the basic techniques and he seems to know what he's doing, but I can't get him to understand the more advanced stuff. I used to think that constantly battling him would force him to adapt to how I play and punish my strategies. However, that doesn't seem to work because I adapt to him much faster than he does, so now he has become too predictable. I'm mainly concerned that my playing against him is making him a worse player, but we don't know anyone else who plays off-line so I'm the only one he can practice with. Anyone have any ideas about how I could train him?

Off-topic: I'm up for a brawl if anyone is interested

 

[NintenJoe]

teach him the way you punish him and introduce him to smashboards. It really depends on who his main is...

 

[1337-Zero]

teach him the way you punish him and introduce him to smashboards. It really depends on who his main is...

I never really thought of trying that thanks!

He mains TL and Lucario BTW.

 

[mobilisq]

I'm pretty much the same way against my girlfriend. I see improvement in her here and there though mostly because whenever we play some times she will actually ask me what the hell i'm doing that she doesnt know how to do.

Try getting drunk and playing with him, if either of you is of age/sufficiently delinquent like i used to be, thats when she seems to get the most interested in the advanced bull****.

 

[1337-Zero]

^ Major lulz in that post.

I wont be drinking ever, especially not when I play my friend (a.k.a. my dad)

 

[Eagleye893]

no items
fox only
final destination....

actually not that

as nintenjoe said, bring him to smashboards or even AiB... but smashboards first!

One question: what "advanced stuff" does he not know? If it's DI/SDI/Momentum canceling, then just show him and tell him how it will keep him alive, then try and make him work it into his matches against you. maybe show him a video on youtube explaining DI/SDI/Momentum canceling (yes, there is one). If you are talking about character-specific ATs, then SMASHBOARDS! .... we might need to know about what he doesn't know first before we could start jumping in.

 

[1337-Zero]

I know TL has a crapload of adv. techs, but I don't think Lucario has much at all (besides wall-jumping/clinging stuff)

For the most part, he understands how to do the techs, but not how to apply them. I never really knew how to teach him applications. Whenever I play, I'll just battle normally until I realize "Hey, I could use technique X here" or something like that, but that doesn't help him because he forgets to use them XD.

He understands DI, SDI, SH, FF, and all the other basic advanced stuff. The problem is, he doesn't understand the significance of them (even though he sees their significance when I play Squirtle, who's always in his face with FFs and aerials).

Do you know how I could battle him in a way that would force him to use specific techniques?

EDIT: I guess his main problem is that he plays too predictably. For instance, I've noticed that every time he hits the ground he will always try to roll behind me. I can easily tell him to "stop doing that", but he also has more obscure habits, such as always jumping whenever I hit him off the stage.

I'm hoping that fighting me would be perfect since it forces him to play differently, but I wonder if it's actually hurting him skill-wise.

 

[Eagleye893]

well, it's less of you teaching him but more of him applying it... I'm not good at the applying it part, but just tell him to try and integrate one thing at a time during matches enough so that he doesn't need to TRY to use them every time. I didn't DI or use any AT's until after one tournament where i saw "wow, i can't beat anyone the way i'm playing," so i eventually just practiced in matches against several computers while i had an insane handicap... then just keep in mind which direction attacks send you while moving the control stick in a different direction to try to have the most distance on a hit before going to the blast zone and try to use an attack rather than airdodge after being hit and WALLA! you have DI and momentum canceling mastered. for SDI'ing out of multi-hit attacks, that doesn't take too long, just pkfire/fair a lot in an actual match against him while trying to get him to sdi. SH and FF should come naturally, but tell him that instead of hitting jump really hard, just press the button enough so that you do a SH. FF press down in the air.

Character specific ATs are somewhat difficult to integrate into someone's overall game, but what i did was practice them until i could do them consistently, try to use them against friends, and eventually they became a part of what i do.

just try to have him start out by using useful techniques little by little in some matches and keep it fresh in his mind while playing him normally in a real match. It should eventually become etched in his brain.... maybe not etched, but close enough.

EDIT: FORGET THE PARTS I CHANGED COLOR TO! I was going on a pointless rant.

 

[NintenJoe]

I never really thought of trying that thanks!

He mains TL and Lucario BTW.

Lucario: Short Hop Fair->Nair->Jabs->Jab Cancel->B-Forward (Popular Lucario Combo) Also Dair is a beastly move.

T Link: Bair Bair Bair Bair Zair Bair Bair Bomb SH Double Arrow Bair Bair Bair

 

[Uffe]

Playing Smash while smashed isn't the way to go. It looks funny, but I fear that alcohol kills your reaction time and that's not good. Tell your friend he needs to mix it up. He needs to learn what works and what doesn't. In order to stop playing predictable, you need to stop doing the same thing over and over again and just go with the flow. Oh, look, I threw him up in the air, what attack could I possibly use next? Either of the aerial attacks can work. Does your friend ever block or spotdodge?

Anyway, you're probably better off bringing him around here. I remember when I played horribly and I was pretty predictable myself. I came here and got better eventually. I was able to defeat a player I wasn't able to defeat before. Also, tell your friend to learn from his mistakes. If your advice isn't helping, then he can only help himself. If he feels he's doing worse, chances are he will do worse.

 

[1337-Zero]

Thanks for the combos NintenJoe!

@ Uffe, Lol smash while smashed
I definitely agree with what you're saying. I tell him all the time when he's being predictable and what he could do differently. However, I can't tell him how he can change his strategy, because then I'll know exactly how he plans on countering what I do.
You know what? I don't think he has spot dodged once in his life XD (We've been playing brawl/melee for 5 years). I should probably teach him about that. He is just learning how to use his shield effectively.
It's a source of frustration between us, because he gets annoyed about being predictable/losing and I get annoyed about him complaining/not changing his playstyle.

@ Eagleye893: Do you think he should practice by himself against CPUs or should he practice against a human carrying out specific instructions (such as always jumping, etc.)?
I actually made a mistake in my other post. My dad (ignore my saying friend in the first few posts) is actually REALLY good at DI'ing (In fact, I went through a period of time in which I could never hit him with Pikachu's D-smash, because he kept DI'ing out of it).
Believe me, I use a LOT of f-airs and PK fires in our battles.

Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[professor mgw]

Bring him to swf.
let him play lv.9 on his own.

 

[Eagleye893]

i don't know what i said.... basically just try to incorporate a couple more things into his game at a time.... I practice by myself with CPUs, but it's definitely not recommended. I go under completely insane conditions when fighting cpus by myself though (3 lvl 9 cpu's vs. me, handicap at least 100%). Bottom line DON'T TRAIN AGAINST CPUS!!

Not the second option either... I guess i was saying stuff wrong in my first post or very scatterbrained as i always am.... don't listen to the first stuff i said... Play human players, be it over wifi or in person, and try to mix in stuff you learned... don't go out of your way to do specific things!! just try and mix in things little by little over time while playing normally. I would recommend telling him to just look a little bit into smashboards first for what each character does well in to try and adjust slightly to their recommended playstyles. again, don't tell him to go out of his way to do some specific things, just try to incorporate things gradually over time, little by little, until he gets used to it. forget most of what i said earlier... i was more talking about how i got better, and i'm really wierd () and most of what i do doesn't make any sense to anyone else.

gradual change, little by little, to incorporate things into normal matches against real people. never go completely out of way to do something. just throw it in when you get the chance.

EDIT: \/ \/ \/ yes, he's right

 

[xoxokev]

first things first. he won't get better if he doesn't want to. make sure he really does like the game.... otherwise there's no motivation to get better. you can't just force someone to get better if they're just not into it

 

[1337-Zero]

first things first. he won't get better if he doesn't want to. make sure he really does like the game.... otherwise there's no motivation to get better. you can't just force someone to get better if they're just not into it

Oh, yes, he definitely likes the game. We've both entered tournaments and we both really want to get better. (He's always under a lot of pressure. He has told me that playing brawl helps him to release his stress)

EDIT: @ Eagleye: I get what your saying. I guess I do try to get him to do specific things a little too much.

 

[Bartolon]

Hmm I am also training someone and its hard I guarantee you it.
I've told him about spotdodge but he can't get it in his game.
I see some resemblance in the way he plays with my really old playstyle. =)
I couldn't get the spotdodge in till one day I played with a olimar WHERE I NEEDED to spotdodge.
The timing was horrible at first but it flowed in my playstyle over some time.
I think your friends rolls many times? Every new player rolls so much.
Its hard to get it off its a habit. But maybe if you can punish it the whole time who knows. He will get upset maybe and will try some new things.
It's pretty funny if my friend loses he keeps smiling and saying your my rival but watch out when Im better you're going down.
So yeah he has a reason to play he wants to be better in the game then me.
Is that also the case by your friend?
Maybe you can let him watch some combo videos and such. I watched many combo vids when I played brawl for few months and It helped really good.
But keep it up he will probably get spotdodge and such in his playstyle.

Just give him a good grabber where he needs to spotdodge that can help maybe?

(First time I typed so much omg XD)

 

[1337-Zero]

That's basically my dad, except he's been playing for 5 years XD.

He has a rough time fitting those things into his gameplay.

 

[CarVac]

Sometimes I play against low-level computers and try to practice one thing (e.g. spotdodges or perfect shields) for the entire match.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Use characters you're mediocre with and work up.

 

[PK-ow!]

Well, according to Sirlin, a player should alternate between playing pros and playing newbs. Or rather, he figured this would be how it naturally works out.

You play the pros to get creamed. You get demolished, you learn that your imperfect ways aren't going to cut it, and you get brought down to Earth. But also, you get to see what punishment is like.
As you eliminate your bad habits, you try to test these things out on players who are worse than you - by "running a tighter ship" against them. That is, trying to punish more precisely, to create opportunities to win. Sirlin contrasts this with how, if you play peers and newbs mostly, you might get the wrong impression that playing patiently will eventually get you to a win. That's the wrong way to go. You should try to win more... violently, more assuredly.... whatever adverb works for you.


As you do this, you get practice doing the things the pros do. You can't practice them on the pros because the pros kick your ***. But then you do go back to the pros, hopefully with less bad habits, and some improved skills at "taking advantages" or punishment or whatever. Then you'll still get creamed. But eventually you might take a stock off them that isn't attrition. That's when you got better.

 

[1337-Zero]

Use characters you're mediocre with and work up.

My mediocre characters still overwhelm him. I main Ness, but I played all the characters at one point so I know how to use just about everyone pretty well.


@PK-ow: That makes a lot of sense. Funny I didn't think of that If I play the role of the "pro" and my sister plays the role of the "noob", yaddah yaddah....

Thanks both of you guys!

 

[YumClock]

And on the bair combo comment, I believe TL isn't so bair based these days.

 

[NessBrawler]

I like to think of it 2 ways. My dad doesn't even no which button does which (not kiding)... so that amazing what your dad can cdo comparing. And my freinds aren't very good. One owns a wii but says he'll buy it when the price lowers... So I have nobody to even brawl near me. Well I'd say just hold back a bit observe and see his tactics and see wha he should imrpove on

 

[1337-Zero]

^It honestly amazes me how close your situation is to mine. My friend also wont buy a wii or SSBB because of the price, and my other friend plays way too many different games to concentrate on playing just one (Neither are very good at the game, but my friend always beats my dad because he has faster fingers).

Thanks to everyone who posted here. My dad is getting a quite a bit better.