A question concerning pro Lucas players & their playstyle preference

[Doyoudigworms]

This thread is really just a quick way of understanding a pro player and their techniques they use to succeed. I've been using Lucas as my main since shortly after the games american release and have adapted a good playstyle. But as most Lucas players know a good playstyle is far from seamless. I consider myself to be very good at this game and play among various circles. But despite considering myself a good player I have a modest sensibility and tend to adapt to the changes in a pro player.

A few months ago I recall a thread that put Lucas' B-Sticking into question and it's usefulness, and would love to hear where players still stand with stuff like that. And whether or not it's considered crucial to a good Lucas(months back it seemed that the general consensus is that it was) but where do players stand now? What have good players added or discarded to their dynamic playstyle to try and keep Lucas from falling down the tier list?

So a few questions for starters:

1. How often do you use PKT2 as a recovery? Do you use it only when necessary, to avoid obvious gimping?

2. How many still avidly B-Stick or feel that the C-stick is superior?

3. What controller do you use and why? Any special configurations?

4. What set-ups do you use to create spacing and control the match in your favor?(obviously this changes from match to match with specific character match-ups changing the variable, but something textbook)

5. What moves do you rely on as your most dedicated kill attacks? What ones do you avoid?

I made this mainly to help Lucas players progress, I'm sure a lot of you have some differing opinions, but from what I have seen a lot of Lucas players seem to share one common thing(other then the same main of course) we all love talking about how Lucas can be better!

So please feel free to discuss.

 

[Tyr_03]

B-sticking is pointless. You're much better off having better control over your aerials. PK Fire is used for spacing, not spamming. The backward boost that B-sticking gives you just isn't necesary for that. You can just as easily control your spacing without it. I've tried with and without B-sticking for long periods of time and these are my conclusions. I have always been and will always be against B-sticking. PKT2 is a great recovery if you know how to use it but mixing in the rope snake is of course essential. Gimping PKT2 can usually be avoided with smart usage. Standard control settings GC controller.

 

[HiddenBowser]

There are pro Lucases? PHGHhgkdfghhghk *sigh*

 

[Doyoudigworms]

B-sticking is pointless. You're much better off having better control over your aerials. PK Fire is used for spacing, not spamming. The backward boost that B-sticking gives you just isn't necesary for that. You can just as easily control your spacing without it. I've tried with and without B-sticking for long periods of time and these are my conclusions. I have always been and will always be against B-sticking. PKT2 is a great recovery if you know how to use it but mixing in the rope snake is of course essential. Gimping PKT2 can usually be avoided with smart usage. Standard control settings GC controller.

Great post! I've used b-stick for quite awhile now, and I'm beginning to find very little beneficial use for it. There are a few random projectile vs. projectile scenario's where I found B-Sticking was helpful, but not enough to merit the loss of a c-stick. Many of the primary Lucas techniques ie. Zap jumping, thundersliding can easily be achieved without the use of the B-stick. Even if they were only possible with the B-Stick configuration, I would hardly depend on those to win a match.

Is there anyone who feels the B-Stick creates an advantage, if spacing can be achieved with standard B and Analog?

What Lucas techniques are you dependent on to win a match?

 

[Ballistaboy]

I use Classic Controller with tap jump off.

One of my favorite approaches is using a pk fire while jumping forwards and then running towards them and hitting them with a nair.

If the nair misses i usually do a spotdodge, ftilt, or jab combo depending on character.

I DONT b-stick because i am a very aggressive lucas, the b-sticking distance hurts my game because then i need to constantly approach if i use it.

I love to use downsmash because it lasts so long for a kill move. Fsmash is quick and powerful and up smash is just rediculous but situational and very punishable.

I use pkt2 when i cant ledgegrab with the snake.

 

[Tyr_03]

The only Lucas AT I even use is thundersliding. If I'm bored I'll zap jump every once in a while for fun but never for any real purpose. It's just not necesary. Same goes for magnet pull.

 

[Noraa]

This thread is really just a quick way of understanding a pro player and their techniques they use to succeed. I've been using Lucas as my main since shortly after the games american release and have adapted a good playstyle. But as most Lucas players know a good playstyle is far from seamless. I consider myself to be very good at this game and play among various circles. But despite considering myself a good player I have a modest sensibility and tend to adapt to the changes in a pro player.

A few months ago I recall a thread that put Lucas' B-Sticking into question and it's usefulness, and would love to hear where players still stand with stuff like that. And whether or not it's considered crucial to a good Lucas(months back it seemed that the general consensus is that it was) but where do players stand now? What have good players added or discarded to their dynamic playstyle to try and keep Lucas from falling down the tier list?

So a few questions for starters:

1. How often do you use PKT2 as a recovery? Do you use it only when necessary, to avoid obvious gimping?

2. How many still avidly B-Stick or feel that the C-stick is superior?

3. What controller do you use and why? Any special configurations?

4. What set-ups do you use to create spacing and control the match in your favor?(obviously this changes from match to match with specific character match-ups changing the variable, but something textbook)

5. What moves do you rely on as your most dedicated kill attacks? What ones do you avoid?

I made this mainly to help Lucas players progress, I'm sure a lot of you have some differing opinions, but from what I have seen a lot of Lucas players seem to share one common thing(other then the same main of course) we all love talking about how Lucas can be better!

So please feel free to discuss.

1.Well i use pkt2 depending on how far away i am from the ledge or stage. I try to avoid it and just his snake thing.

2. Never b-sticked, i liked having my ariels right there and easy smash use.

3. GC just because its more comfy to me and most familar =]

4. Pk fire of course. Not to spam though just to keep my distance until i decide i want to play close and agressive (best playstyle for lucas i think 98% of the time)

5. THA STICK lol. It comes out quick and packs a punch and if at the right time psi magnet cause of its good knockback (i dunno why people dont add this into there game, great mindgames and edgegaurd uses mybe its just me =] )

 

[Earthbound360]

1. As least a possible, or only when necessary. I do that with all characters really.

2. B-stick. I dont know why people need to C-stick to do aerials or to smash. You can easily pull off reversed direction aerials and quick smashes with A and the control stick alone, but B-sticking is very difficult without the C-stick. The pushback effect is very defensive and hard to penetrate with certain characters.

3. Gamecube
Tap Jump: Off-Annoying when trying to use PKt, uair, or utilt and you jump first.
R: Attack-So I can short hop and use an fair right when I leave the ground to land with no lag. Pressing X then A is too slow for me and I cant use the fair early enough to make sure I land with no lag.
Z: Jump-For zap jumping. I cant claw X and B to zap jump for the life of me, even though zap jump isnt all that necessary, but it can surprise opponents while you recover sometimes.
Y: Grab-Cuz I needed a new grab button
C: Specials-Cuz I B-stick

4. Ftilt for spacing and PKF for good control of a mid range and zoning.

5. Stick for kills, and occasionally a dsmash and PSIM. I dont use the usmash for killing much.

 

[ZMan]

1. How often do you use PKT2 as a recovery? Do you use it only when necessary, to avoid obvious gimping?

2. How many still avidly B-Stick or feel that the C-stick is superior?

3. What controller do you use and why? Any special configurations?

4. What set-ups do you use to create spacing and control the match in your favor?(obviously this changes from match to match with specific character match-ups changing the variable, but something textbook)

5. What moves do you rely on as your most dedicated kill attacks? What ones do you avoid?

I made this mainly to help Lucas players progress, I'm sure a lot of you have some differing opinions, but from what I have seen a lot of Lucas players seem to share one common thing(other then the same main of course) we all love talking about how Lucas can be better!

So please feel free to discuss.

1. All the time except against Pits. I get scared of that arrow
2. Just use the standard GC setup, Bstciking is unnessasary.
3. GC, the sticks on the classic and nunchuk just aren't good enough for brawl and the wiimote is WHACK.
4. PK Fire and Ftilt
5. Dsmash, Fsmash, and PKT1 and 2 are my favorite kill moves.Usmash is situational and his other moves can only kill at around 180% fresh.

 

[Natch]

1. I use PKT2 only when needed. Otherwise, Rope Snake all the way.

2. I have no real opinion of the matter. I use B-stick out of habit, and don't feel like switching. C-stick is probably more useful though.

3. GC controller. Tap Jump off, Z for Jump(makes Zap-Jumping easier, but I've never used it in a serious match IIRC). Y is grab.

4. PK Fire, PKT1 when conditions permit, SH Fairs, F-tilt, Jab combo. They're all very good "keep away" moves.

5.
-Stick is a general kill move. Comes out fast, underestimated range, etc.
-Dsmash against people who you can predict when they'll roll or spotdoge. Be careful about lag though. Also a good edguarding move.
-Fair at high percents. I mean really high percents.

I usually avoid Magnet-its worked many times in the past, but I took a break from smash for a bit and just stopped using it. It does work though. U-smash is very situational, and is best avoided unless you are 100% sure you won't be punished.

 

[Seanson]

I zap jump with a purpose, lots of the time. To prevent being edgeguarded by a tether, or if without jumping I'm just too low, I'll often zap jump and pk thunder right after, this opens up a few possibilities.

Most of the time when I zap jump, I'm still far enough away where they wont have time to hit me while I PKT. I can go up towards a platform (like the top one on battlefield), or go down diagonally and skid across the stage, or down diagonally and grab the edge.

 

[Dxt XXII]

1. I use it when i can, but if I'm close to the ledge and there's a Kirby trying to spike me I'll just tether.

2. I can still wavebounce without the B-Stick, and I'm so used to the C-stick that there's no point in me changing.

3. GC, and Tap jump off (so annoying when I try uair or tilts),Y for grab, and L for jump (so i can zap jump).

4. PKF if they are not right nex to me, and if they are F-tilt or sometomes even sh fair (situational, though)

5. Stick FTW! D-smash is also really good for people trying to roll away. I hardly do U-Smash, as if I miss thats a free hit on me.

 

[HiddenBowser]

seanson has a cool sig

also, the only thing lucas can do is run around and side b people and then run away some more and never approach because lucas' aerials suck and should never be used.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Ummm no...

 

[HiddenBowser]

lol, when was the last time you've seen a lucas player beat a pro mk or snake or rob or anything good? seriously, get real, lucas sucks.

 

[prOAPC]

i beat all the MKs, Snakes or ROBs where i live... if that counts... (watch my vids)

anyway...

1. It all depends where i am, and the enemy, if my rival likes to gimp, i zap jump, then PKT directly to the stage. I don't like to use the rope vs fast characters, because the can grab the ledge before i go up

2. B-stick FTW!!! Really, i can't imagine myself playing Lucas without B-stick, i'm good using aerials and smashes with A and the stick, i would say the only problem is a reversal dsmash

3. Classic Controller
tap jump off
A, Zl - jump (Zl for Zap jumping wavebounce, hardly use it...)
X, Y, C - special (i use Y for battle, X is for zap jump, i only push X and A with my thumb at the same time)
L, Zr - grab
R - guard

4. I use PK Fire a lot for spacing, also, some random fsmashes and ftilts (specially ftilts) and mindgames with PKT1

5. Jab Lock, Fsmash, Dsmash, PKT2, Grabs, Spikes, and Usmash when i have the opportunity or if i'm desperated

 

[Tyr_03]

I never said Lucas was high tier. I'm 100% he's mid tier at the very best. I merely refute your misinformed notion that his aerials suck. They do not. And PK Fire spamming will get you nowhere against any player with half a brain. Lucas's full hop Dair when fastfalled correctly serves quite nicely as an approach. He has several others that I wouldn't really care to go into at the moment. Bowyer, I would have thought you were more intelligent and civil than to try to start a random flame war on the boards of a character you don't happen to like playing.

 

[HiddenBowser]

lol, the only reason I wanna start a flame war up here is because Levitas is my roommate. <3 Levitas

But being serious. I honestly believe Lucas is a terrible toon. His aerials have like no range, his smashes are laggy as hell and suck, his tilts have no range, and his recovery isn't anything special.

His approach game is like one of the worst in the game. All he can seriously do is hop around and pk fire people and pretend to be about to approach. His nair has no priority, his dair has no forward priority, and his fair has just a tiny hit box pretty close to him (without priority). His bair is seriously like the only move that is safe to approach with, but with the start up time, its no good as a quick defensive move with a bunch of priority. So basically you just hop around using pk fire to try to make them approach you. The problem with that is that pk fire is incredibly easy to shield and/or avoid. Sure you can stay away from your opponent with it, but please, he seriously has one of the worst approaches in the game.

His smashes are no good. His dsmash and up smash have a ****ing hour of lag before and after the move and only scrubs get hit by them. His fsmash is alright but it has just a little bit too much lag before to consistently hit anyone.

His tilts have no range and I don't really need to get too much into it.

And his recovery isn't that special. Sure he's got the zap jump and tether recovery, but if you are forced to use your pk thunder recovery, its easily gimped by attacking the thunder bolt, and even if you don't hit it, its easy to hit lucas after he's done moving.

All in all, lucas has no priority, has laggy smashes, has a ****ty projectile that doesn't hit your opponents or force them to approach, and has a lack luster recovery, and just isn't a very good character.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Lolbowyer.

Somebody give this guy some frame data to see him on his way.

 

[Tyr_03]

Actually Dair's hitbox covers almost all of Lucas's front side and leaves only the top back of his body exposed. It has decently high priority and the hexagons are obviously disjointed. Full hop Dairs can be combo'd effectively into Fsmashes at high percentages (around 80) extremely reliably which kind of goes against your comment on Fsmash being too laggy to use.

Dsmash requires a little bit of thought to hit with. Same with Usmash. You just have to be smart enough to use it effectively.

His recovery is much the same. If you use it intelligently it's actually hard for the opponent to gimp. Just don't be stupid and use it at the right times. Lucas has plenty of options for getting back to the ledge.

PK Fire does force opponents to approach when properly spaced which can lead into free jabs. Again you just have to know how to space it and use it at times when it will connect. It helps if you know how to lessen the lag on it.

Ftilt actually has pretty decent range. The others I won't argue with.

Maybe you just haven't played a good Lucas player recently. I agree that Lucas is not even close to high tier. But some of your criticisms I just can't agree with.

 

[HiddenBowser]

lol, frame data doesn't mean ****, I speak from experience and all the **** I said was true.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Actually Dair's hitbox covers almost all of Lucas's front side and leaves only the top back of his body exposed. It has decently high priority and the hexagons are obviously disjointed. Full hop Dairs can be combo'd effectively into Fsmashes at high percentages (around 80) extremely reliably which kind of goes against your comment on Fsmash being too laggy to use.

So you're telling me to use dair as an approach? That seems a little to easy to shield and own afterwards. Though I have seen it combo into fsmash, but like seriously, you have to land the dair to use it so that doesn't really seem like a good fun option. So my point still stands about lucas not being able to approach well. Plus, something I didn't bring up before, his grab has more lag than most grabs, so its really not that great to use.

Dsmash requires a little bit of thought to hit with. Same with Usmash. You just have to be smart enough to use it effectively.

"you just have to be smart enough to use it" is just a scrub way of saying, against a good player, you will never be able to land this move.

His recovery is much the same. If you use it intelligently it's actually hard for the opponent to gimp. Just don't be stupid and use it at the right times. Lucas has plenty of options for getting back to the ledge.

Its not that incredibly hard to take away all your options other than pkt2, in order to force you to pkt2 resulting in the owning of the you.

PK Fire does force opponents to approach when properly spaced which can lead into free jabs. Again you just have to know how to space it and use it at times when it will connect. It helps if you know how to lessen the lag on it.

Its not hard to avoid pk fire. Like seriously, its not that fast of a projectile and its incredibly predictable. I mean, you look, and see lucas starting to do some dragon ball z **** and then you're like whoa, theres gonna be some fire infront of me, so I better either jump or shield or i'll get hit, 1 sec, 2 sec, ok here it comes, shield up now! there i'm unharmed!

Ftilt actually has pretty decent range. The others I won't argue with.

prepare to take a hit if you go ftilting someones shield.

Maybe you just haven't played a good Lucas player recently. I agree that Lucas is not even close to high tier. But some of your criticisms I just can't agree with.

I guess I haven't played any lucasi in incredibly recent times, but i've played Vidjo's lucas (I'd say he's pretty good, don'tcha think?) and have decided that lucas sucks and shouldn't be played.

Edit:

i beat all the MKs, Snakes or ROBs where i live... if that counts... (watch my vids)

lol

 

[Earthbound360]

*facepalm*
I would argue with Tyr if I felt like it, but saying stuff like his smashes suck (stick? STICK!?) makes me wanna give up. Also the fact that I'm talking to Bowyer.

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah I can't say I really care enough to continue this argument. Go ahead and think Lucas is a sucky character. Your opinion counts for very little to me. Oh and I've never seen Vidjo's Lucas except for one video on youtube that was awful. I would assume he's better than that by now but who knows. Anyways I haven't a clue how good he is with Lucas so I can't really argue that sarcastic comment of yours. If you care to continue a more rational argument on the subject, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, you're just wasting space.

 

[dawgbowl]

1. I'd say PKT2 depends on if I'm really high, if I'm lower I'll try and sneak in with my tether or zap and float back... or zap to PKT2 like most. (I don't use zap jump that much, probably should more)

2. I prefer B-sticking, as someone else said I'm careful enough with my smashes/tilts/ect to not have to worry about messing them up. I also don't turn off tap jump... I short hop with x and do my other jumps with the stick for more controlled feel.

3. Gamecube, + bstick... thats it.

4. I usually start off playing a decent range of wavebouncing to see what they attack with... then try and get more physical (assuming I can, against snake running is the only option due to the ftilt from hell) I love the Dair and Nair... I love playing chaotic by fast falling at random times with dair later in the match after being more predicatable...

5. I'd say Fsmash and Dsmash... Usmash is good but i'll only use it once or twice a match... usually I connect with em though. Dsmash is great for roll whores (like myself >_>)

Obviously, with these semi-infinites from marth and other things that seem to go against lucas we can't call him anything higher than mid tier. (not the only reason but... ya know what I mean) He does have some hitboxes that are a tiny bit disjointed and that is a bonus (A-Combo is just weird though, you want them inside of you instead of infront lol)

All you can do is outplay your opponent... you could make it easier by selecting these rediculous high tier characters... but where is the fun in that eh?

 

[Trozz]

I like how Seanson plays: super aggressive. Makes for funner gameplay, just don't get shield grabbed.

 

[HiddenBowser]

*facepalm*
I would argue with Tyr if I felt like it, but saying stuff like his smashes suck (stick? STICK!?) makes me wanna give up. Also the fact that I'm talking to Bowyer.

what the **** are you talking about. I'm having a serious argument right now, and if you can't think of a **** thing to counter my argument, then you can just shove that stick up your ***

Yeah I can't say I really care enough to continue this argument. Go ahead and think Lucas is a sucky character. Your opinion counts for very little to me. Oh and I've never seen Vidjo's Lucas except for one video on youtube that was awful. I would assume he's better than that by now but who knows. Anyways I haven't a clue how good he is with Lucas so I can't really argue that sarcastic comment of yours. If you care to continue a more rational argument on the subject, feel free to PM me. Otherwise, you're just wasting space.

lol, everything that i said in my argument was serious. If you want to give up on account that "oh, its bowyer, he's too smart, and I can't win because I'm a little *****" and let me win then go for it. Just don't blame it on me being irrational, because everything that I said was perfectly rational, true, and I don't see any counter arguments coming back at me.

 

[Tyr_03]

Like I said, PM me if you care to continue the discussion. I have plenty of counter arguments but this really isn't the place for it. I would be happy to point out the errors in your argument if you like but it's really not that important to me if you think Lucas sucks or not so I'll save it for whether you care enough to continue this or not via PM. Thank you for your interest.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Arguing by PM's is so ****ing boring. And I honestly don't think you have any counter arguments.

 

[Omis]

Bowyer seriously shut up and stop flaming.

 

[HiddenBowser]

You should look up the definition of flaming because I haven't done any flaming.

 

[Tyr_03]

end thread

 

[HiddenBowser]

@Tyr: I sent you a PM.

 

[Krnxmatt7]

1. How often do you use PKT2 as a recovery? Do you use it only when necessary, to avoid obvious gimping?

2. How many still avidly B-Stick or feel that the C-stick is superior?

3. What controller do you use and why? Any special configurations?

4. What set-ups do you use to create spacing and control the match in your favor?(obviously this changes from match to match with specific character match-ups changing the variable, but something textbook)

5. What moves do you rely on as your most dedicated kill attacks? What ones do you avoid?

I made this mainly to help Lucas players progress, I'm sure a lot of you have some differing opinions, but from what I have seen a lot of Lucas players seem to share one common thing(other then the same main of course) we all love talking about how Lucas can be better!

So please feel free to discuss.

1. I use the rope snake when possible, but if needed, use PKT2.

2.Personally, I prefer the C-Stick (Lame pun intended), It really is better to have control of your aerials rather than a better PK Fire.

3. Regular, but that's because I claw the controller in a weird way -_- index finger on Y-button, thumb on anything else on right side of controller.....yeah, I know.

4. Umm, idk, I'm really aggressive with Lucas, so.....I pretty much slap them silly

5. F-tilt, D & Fsmash, I RARELY use Usmash, unless I have the situation in my favor, and they run into it lol. Oh, and PKT mindgames are really helpful to me. I'm Korean, mindgames are a cakewalk haha.

 

[Earthbound360]

lol Tyr, tell us how it goes down at the end.

what the **** are you talking about. I'm having a serious argument right now, and if you can't think of a **** thing to counter my argument, then you can just shove that stick up your ***

Hmm... 3 curses in one post. Im thinking thats at least bordeline flaming
BTW, I CAN think of counter arguments, Im just trying to avoid what Tyr was.

 

[prOAPC]

prepare to take a hit if you go ftilting someones shield.

ftilt is hard to punish because of the IASA frames
and vidjo is not that good, as it seems from his vids

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Hey Bowyer. I did priority testing against Snake's ftilt (most would agree that this is a very solid attack) and here's what I found.

Lucas's ftilt has equal range (lol @ 'no range') and clashes with Snake's ftilt. If it were low priority. it would have been eaten.

fair trades hits with Snake's f and u tilts.

Dsnash beats Snake's ftilt.

Usmash beats snake's ftilt.

Fsmash beats it.

Bair and dair beat it.

So yeah. lucas has solid priority and range. He has an easy time KOing people, an easy time punishing and trapping, and racks up damage fast.

Frame wise, his tilts are very fast and a lot of his moves have lingering disjointed hitboxes too.

And people still believe that "good players don't get hit by Lucas's upsmash"? The move has THE best vertical range of any upsmash in the game not called Snake's mortar. It's hitbox lingers for ages, it has good horizontal range too, and you can't airdodge it because of its insane hitbox duration.

 

[HiddenBowser]

You're a moron, priority has to do with size of hit boxes. You are seriously a ******* if you think lucas has a lot of priority and range and I can't believe you said that good people get hit by upsmash. you are seriously one of the biggest scrubs on smashboards. I can't believe that someone who's been around since 202 is so **** stupid.

 

[HiddenBowser]

lol Tyr, tell us how it goes down at the end.



Hmm... 3 curses in one post. Im thinking thats at least bordeline flaming
BTW, I CAN think of counter arguments, Im just trying to avoid what Tyr was.

oh noes, 3 curse words! what are you like 12?

lol, Tyr hasn't replied to me yet.

ftilt is hard to punish because of the IASA frames
and vidjo is not that good, as it seems from his vids

what videos of vidjo are you watching? you're a ******* if you think he sucks.

 

[Levitas]

the only vids of vidjo were like the week brawl came out.

Also, priority has two components: intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic is whether the move does within ~10% of the other move in damage, and determines whether the move clanks or not.

extrinsic is what you were referring to, bowyer.