A question concerning pro Lucas players & their playstyle preference

[NESSBOUNDER]

You're a moron, priority has to do with size of hit boxes. You are seriously a ******* if you think lucas has a lot of priority and range and I can't believe you said that good people get hit by upsmash. you are seriously one of the biggest scrubs on smashboards. I can't believe that someone who's been around since 202 is so **** stupid.

I could say the same for you. Respected as you are, you only ever seem to spout false information with no real data to back it up.

And obviously you don't know jack about the intricacies of the up smash. Go read Emblem Lord's thread on trapping and brickwalling or something. Usmash isn't all that hard to land. It can even be used as an edgeguard.

And I'm not old enough to have been here since 0202. That's just silly.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I could say the same for you. Respected as you are, you only ever seem to spout false information with no real data to back it up.

wtf, you are seriously a ****ing ******. Go look up that exhiste...., or whatever levitas said, priority and get back to me, anyways, its probably time you learned a little bit of how to play this **** game.

And obviously you don't know jack about the intricacies of the up smash. Go read Emblem Lord's thread on trapping and brickwalling or something. Usmash isn't all that hard to land. It can even be used as an edgeguard.

You are obviously a huge scrub if you seriously expect to land an upsmash on someone. I couldn't give a **** about EL's article, it just won't happen against a good player. Like come on, the people you play against must really suck for you to be able to land upsmashes.

And I'm not old enough to have been here since 0202. That's just silly.

its good to see that the lucas boards are filled with 12 year olds.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'll use an example: Character x uses a double jump to escape a retaliation after being hit by Lucas's utilt, but Lucas throws a running up smash in character x's general direction. Character X does not have time to fast fall and hit Lucas. They can't jump to safety either. All they can do is use up B or air dodge. WHAT DO THEY DO?

If they air dodge, they'll still be hut by usmash as they land, or even after the i-frames wear off. If they use up B, they'll have to do it pretty high up, giving Lucas time to recover from the lag and apply pressure.

And this isn't even mentioning the stuff you can do with it on the ledge.

Ya, and Lucas's hexagons are all disjointed. Disjointed attacks generally take priority over non-disjointed ones. Lucas doesn't have superior priority to someone like Toon Link or Marth, but his attacks will most likely beat out or clash with physical moves like Snake's tilts.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Anyway: intrinsic and implied (extrinsic) priority...

intrinsic priority is a direct value that the developers gave to ground attacks that determines if a move will override or clash with another. Generally more powerful moves have a higher priority than weaker ones.

Implied priority is to do with the positioning of the hitboxes in relation to a characters hurtbox.

Lucas's insintric priority is equal to and in some cases superior to the insintric priority of Snake's tilts, which are considered high-priority moves. His hexagon attacks also are extended from his body, giving him decent implied priority as well.

So either way, looks like all aspects of Lucas's priority aren't as bad as you say they are.

He has poor extrinsic priority compared to SWORD USERS and others with ranged, disjointed attacks, but it's still better than a majority of the cast.

 

[Levitas]

intrinsic priority isn't a tier system like we used to think. It's a test on whether the amount of damage is within a certain percent threshold of the other attack. I think the percent difference for a clank is 10 or less. Just wanted to make sure that the most updated findings are being used.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

intrinsic priority isn't a tier system like we used to think. It's a test on whether the amount of damage is within a certain percent threshold of the other attack. I think the percent difference for a clank is 10 or less. Just wanted to make sure that the most updated findings are being used.

News to me. Well in that case, Lucas's priority still isn't terrible. His smash attacks are all quite damaging and his aerials may be weaker, but they're disjointed.

So his priority is still not 'terrible' at all. If you want bad priority go check out sheik. Attacks do much less damage than the average per hit, and very few are disjointed.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Anyway: intrinsic and implied (extrinsic) priority...

intrinsic priority is a direct value that the developers gave to ground attacks that determines if a move will override or clash with another. Generally more powerful moves have a higher priority than weaker ones.

Implied priority is to do with the positioning of the hitboxes in relation to a characters hurtbox.

Lucas's insintric priority is equal to and in some cases superior to the insintric priority of Snake's tilts, which are considered high-priority moves. His hexagon attacks also are extended from his body, giving him decent implied priority as well.

So either way, looks like all aspects of Lucas's priority aren't as bad as you say they are.

He has poor extrinsic priority compared to SWORD USERS and others with ranged, disjointed attacks, but it's still better than a majority of the cast.

lol, way to go look up the definition of priority. Did you use the article made by my crewmate?

I couldn't give a **** about intrinsic priority. Generally one move occurs before the other, so it generally doesn't even matter, like seriously, nobody gives a **** about it, so you should stop bringing it up.

implied priority is the only **** that really matters, and frankly, lucas' sucks. All of his moves have tiny *** hitboxes and he can't approach worth **** because of it. And you don't need a ****ing sword or weapon to have good priority. And while were looking at the cast, I'd say the only characters with worse implied priority, are C. Falcon, IC's, and maybe Mario, lol. Pretty much everyone's bair and nair will beat like everything Lucas has, and thats why his priority sucks and he can't approach worth ****.

Like seriosly, how thick do you have to be to see that Lucas has no ****ing range on like any of his quick moves. The only moves that have even decent sized hit boxes are his ****ing up and down smash and those aren't even usable because of the huge lag before they come out.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I'll use an example: Character x uses a double jump to escape a retaliation after being hit by Lucas's utilt, but Lucas throws a running up smash in character x's general direction. Character X does not have time to fast fall and hit Lucas. They can't jump to safety either. All they can do is use up B or air dodge. WHAT DO THEY DO?

If they air dodge, they'll still be hut by usmash as they land, or even after the i-frames wear off. If they use up B, they'll have to do it pretty high up, giving Lucas time to recover from the lag and apply pressure.

It might look good (to you) on paper, but seriously now, this stuff doesn't work with a move as laggy as a ****ing lucas up smash. Like you'd have to have to be ****ing ******** to not see this coming and just like hold the opposite direction to avoid it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It might look good (to you) on paper, but seriously now, this stuff doesn't work with a move as laggy as a ****ing lucas up smash. Like you'd have to have to be ****ing ******** to not see this coming and just like hold the opposite direction to avoid it.

You obviously have no idea how much range this move has. Not every character has enough air control to avoid it in this situation. Especially not characters like Snake.

You'd have to be in the leagues of Jigglypuff and Wario to escape from this situation if the Lucas player is doing it right.

And as for your little tirade concerning implied priority: Lucas's hitboxes are disjointed, and extend beyond his hurtbox by about one and a half bodylengths. His Bair and Dair, the two most commonly used aerials, have quite a good amount of range to them and have multi or disjointed hitboxes. His stick gives him about the same attacking length as Toon Link's sword, as does his Dsmash and Usmash horizontally.

Not that many characters have aerials that actually start as fast as Lucas's Fair and immediately have the same amount of range. And the hitbox isn't even that small...it's bigger and easier to connect with than something like Samus's or Sonic's Bair.

 

[HiddenBowser]

You obviously have no idea how much range this move has. Not every character has enough air control to avoid it in this situation. Especially not characters like Snake.

You'd have to be in the leagues of Jigglypuff and Wario to escape from this situation if the Lucas player is doing it right.

And as for your little tirade concerning implied priority: Lucas's hitboxes are disjointed, and extend beyond his hurtbox by about one and a half bodylengths. His Bair and Dair, the two most commonly used aerials, have quite a good amount of range to them and have multi or disjointed hitboxes. His stick gives him about the same attacking length as Toon Link's sword, as does his Dsmash and Usmash horizontally.

Not that many characters have aerials that actually start as fast as Lucas's Fair and immediately have the same amount of range. And the hitbox isn't even that small...it's bigger and easier to connect with than something like Samus's or Sonic's Bair.

you don't need ****ing sparkly hexagons to have a disjointed hit box. Like almost every bair in the game is disjointed, and like almost all are more disjointed than your ****ing sparkles.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

you don't need ****ing sparkly hexagons to have a disjointed hit box. Like almost every bair in the game is disjointed, and like almost all are more disjointed than your ****ing sparkles.

What...are...you..talking...about?

Most character's Bairs are in fact NOT disjointed. Any attack that involves use of the character's body part is NOT disjointed.

Sonic's Bair for example. If he uses Bair against an opponent who has a sword or a sparkly hexagon, and the two attacks clash at the same time, SONIC will take damage because the opponent's attack has crossed over his hurtbox.

Everyone and their dog knows this! It's especially important for aerials because they can't clash with each other. Why do you think Ike's Fair is considered a useful Ike move despite how slow it is? It's because it's as disjointed as it gets and has massive range. So it always wins. Now go get Ike and Donkey Kong to connect Fairs against each other. Donkey Kong will take damage and Ike will not.

 

[Uffe]

The only Lucas AT I even use is thundersliding. If I'm bored I'll zap jump every once in a while for fun but never for any real purpose. It's just not necesary. Same goes for magnet pull.

I love thundersliding with Ness. When I try it with Lucas I often find myself falling off the cliff.

 

[TechnoMonster]

So a few questions for starters:

1. How often do you use PKT2 as a recovery? Do you use it only when necessary, to avoid obvious gimping?

2. How many still avidly B-Stick or feel that the C-stick is superior?

3. What controller do you use and why? Any special configurations?

4. What set-ups do you use to create spacing and control the match in your favor?(obviously this changes from match to match with specific character match-ups changing the variable, but something textbook)

5. What moves do you rely on as your most dedicated kill attacks? What ones do you avoid?

I made this mainly to help Lucas players progress, I'm sure a lot of you have some differing opinions, but from what I have seen a lot of Lucas players seem to share one common thing(other then the same main of course) we all love talking about how Lucas can be better!

So please feel free to discuss.

1. I use PKT 2 more often on the stage than off of it. Generally only when distance requires it, which is pretty with a good zap jump.
2. I use the C-stick, and have always been a proponent of it, however, both setups have uses and lead to slightly different styles. Don't get me wrong, B-sticking is great vs. Powershielders and for a short-range PK fire, but I'm just too used to the C-stick.
3. GC controller. Some possible mods are using tilt C-stick for more f-tilts and better d-tilts and u-tilts.
4. Lucas' primary spacing moves are PK fire and Forward tilt, but Lucas' jab combo is so good that its often good to try and get in close; especially against top tiers who win the spacing game cleanly.
5. The stick should be your primary kill move. N-air, D-air, and Jab Lock to stick are excellent setups for it. If they make a habit of spot-dodging (ESPECIALLY Metabutt and ROB), UpSmash kills better than D-smash, and sometimes a running U-smash hits the spot.

D-smash is very useful against someone that has just grabbed the ledge (U-smash can hit there also), also, and remember that your down throw and undiminished start killing at around 130-150% depending on weight, on all but the heaviest characters.

 

[HiddenBowser]

What...are...you..talking...about?

Most character's Bairs are in fact NOT disjointed. Any attack that involves use of the character's body part is NOT disjointed.

Sonic's Bair for example. If he uses Bair against an opponent who has a sword or a sparkly hexagon, and the two attacks clash at the same time, SONIC will take damage because the opponent's attack has crossed over his hurtbox.

Everyone and their dog knows this! It's especially important for aerials because they can't clash with each other. Why do you think Ike's Fair is considered a useful Ike move despite how slow it is? It's because it's as disjointed as it gets and has massive range. So it always wins. Now go get Ike and Donkey Kong to connect Fairs against each other. Donkey Kong will take damage and Ike will not.

that is a ****ing blatant lie. Look at the hitboxes in melee, Falco's bair had a hugely disjointed hitbox and its the same way in brawl. ****ing ddd's bair is one of the most disjointed attacks in the game, like seriously now, learn a bit about the game before you go arguing with false ****.

 

[Dxt XXII]

that is a ****ing blatant lie. Look at the hitboxes in melee, Falco's bair had a hugely disjointed hitbox and its the same way in brawl. ****ing ddd's bair is one of the most disjointed attacks in the game, like seriously now, learn a bit about the game before you go arguing with false ****.

What's your definition of disjointed?

Last time I checked DDD didn't shoot out sparks or have a sword coming out of hit foot when he bairs.

 

[heytallman]

@ Bowyer: Why are you even here?

@ Rest of the thread:

1. I use PKT2 when I see that my opponent won't try to stop me. Then I just whizz above the edge and across the stage and hit him in the head with the last hitbox of the attack. Seems to catch a lot of people by surprise. Other than that I either just jump back onto the stage or Rope snake.

2. I have never used B-Sticking, I never found it useful. Also, I seem to be one of the only ones who uses their aerials with the A button and NOT the c stick. I use smashes for the stick, though.

3. Gamecube controller, tap jump off, X set to grab. That's it.

4. PK fire (obviously) and sometimes dair. You can easily run towards a character then jump across them while dairing, and land on the other side of them with enough space to not get hit (because it will get shielded half the time)

5. Down smash and forward smash are my favorites. If a character tries to spot dodge the down smash during the first hit, they will get hit with the third. The third hit doesn't kill most of the time, but its still good. Fsmash is my favorite though. And PSI magnet kills are pure lulz. And the feeling of ending the match with an upsmash is great!

 

[Trozz]

What's your definition of disjointed?

Last time I checked DDD didn't shoot out sparks or have a sword coming out of hit foot when he bairs.

No, but it still goes through everything or clashes with (some) things that are actually disjointed. It just has priority.

 

[HiddenBowser]

What's your definition of disjointed?

Last time I checked DDD didn't shoot out sparks or have a sword coming out of hit foot when he bairs.

My definition of disjointed is that the hit box extends past the hurt box. In the case of DDD, there is a huge hit box around his foot but his hurt box is way back by his body. Near everyone's bair is disjointed along with a ton of other moves.

No, but it still goes through everything or clashes with (some) things that are actually disjointed. It just has priority.

intrinsic priority really doesn't matter too much and most aerials don't clank, so the word priority should only be refering to implied priority (or the size of the hitbox).

@ Bowyer: Why are you even here?

why are you here?

You obviously have no idea how much range this move has. Not every character has enough air control to avoid it in this situation. Especially not characters like Snake.

You'd have to be in the leagues of Jigglypuff and Wario to escape from this situation if the Lucas player is doing it right.

I seriously bet most characters could easily just push the opposite direction and get out of it, even if they couldn't, they could easily escape it by pushing side b or up b. And even if it was like marth, and he up b'ed, he could probably get down and punish you before you're done (ok, so that was pushing it, but like that move has a ton of before and after lag and is easy to punish). So you should probably drop the argument because there is no way in hell you're going to win it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Bowyer, stop telling other people to learn how to play the game when you can't even figure out how to correctly use an attack that Lucas players have been landing on opponents since the game came out, and still are.

And no, Marth CANNOT punish Lucas if he uses his up B to escape the up smash. You're acting as if this move is like Rest or something. Stop exaggerating. Marth has falling time and landing lag from up B to contend with. Lucas will have recovered long before Marth can retaliate.

And also, would you say Wolf's Bair has a disjointed hitbox? Said move sticks out further than Melee Falco's ever did.

Yet if you use Wolf's Bair on Wario's neutral B, no matter where you hit him, he'll eat you.
Now try the same thing with Marth's Bair.

I'll test Dedede with this method but so far the only character I know of who has disjointed hitboxes off a physical attack is Snake.

 

[heytallman]

why are you here?

Because I actually play and enjoy the character that this particular board is focused on? And I look to improve my game based on what other people who use Lucas have to say? So now, again, why are you here, in THIS thread?

 

[HiddenBowser]

Because I actually play and enjoy the character that this particular board is focused on? And I look to improve my game based on what other people who use Lucas have to say? So now, again, why are you here, in THIS thread?

I gave a reason a few pages back, go look it up chief.

@everyone who isn't nessbounder: you might want to shut you're boy nessbounder up because he's making you all look extremely stupid.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Righ. I'm back with the Dedede Bair vs Wario's mouth results.

At maximum range, Dedede teleports into Wario's open mouth.

Dedede's bair is NOT disjointed. His hurtbox and hitbox overlap, despite this attack's range.

Any other examples I should look up, Bowyer?

By the way, the hitbox for dedede's foot was overlapping the hitbox for Wario's bite and not his hurtbox.

Also, I tested the same deal with Lucas's Fair and guess what? He didn't get eaten.

Disjointed hitboxes, people.

 

[HiddenBowser]

lol, you are so stupid, you're comparing disjointedness by wario's bite? LOL wario's bite is one of the most disjointed moves in the game, you are seriously a ******* for testing disjointedness like that.

Edit: your insanely ******** post just made my sig.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Righ. I'm back with the Dedede Bair vs Wario's mouth results.

At maximum range, Dedede teleports into Wario's open mouth.

Dedede's bair is NOT disjointed. His hurtbox and hitbox overlap, despite this attack's range.

Any other examples I should look up, Bowyer?

By the way, the hitbox for dedede's foot was overlapping the hitbox for Wario's bite and not his hurtbox.

Also, I tested the same deal with Lucas's Fair and guess what? He didn't get eaten.

Disjointed hitboxes, people.

LMAO, you are probably the stupidest person I have ever met.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

lol, you are so stupid, you're comparing disjointedness by wario's bite? LOL wario's bite is one of the most disjointed moves in the game, you are seriously a ******* for testing disjointedness like that.

Edit: your insanely ******** post just made my sig.

Re-quote plz. I hadn't finished.

Wario's bite is a grab with lingering duration and a disjointed hitbox. By overlapping a suspected "disjointed" attack with Wario's own, you can see if the other character's hurtbox comes into contact or not since grabs always win.

If Dedede truly had a disjointed hitbox, he wouldn't have been damaged by the attack at all.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Re-quote plz. I hadn't finished.

Wario's bite is a grab with lingering duration and a disjointed hitbox. By overlapping a suspected "disjointed" attack with Wario's own, you can see if the other character's hurtbox comes into contact or not since grabs always win.

If Dedede truly had a disjointed hitbox, he wouldn't have been damaged by the attack at all.

NO, Thats not how it works! Wario has a hugely disjointed hitbox and what happens when two moves that have different sized hitboxes come into contact? I'll give you a hint, one wins because its hitbox is larger, and in this case, Wario's hitbox was larger.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Don't think for one moment that I didn't first test the range of Wario's bite before lining both characters up for the clash. If Dedede's hitbox were disjointed, neither of them would have hit each other.

Why is it so hard to understand? This is basic stuff.

If the tip of Dedede's "disjointed" hitbox touches Wario's disjointed hitbox, then neither of them can take damage because neither of them is overlapping a hurtbox. However, Dedede took damage, meaning that at some point, his hurtbox came into contact with Wario's hitbox.

If you're so adamant that Dedede's bair is disjointed, explain to me why Lucas can get through Wario's bite and Dedede can't?

What's more, Dedede can hit Wario with his Fair (the hammer) which has less range than his bair.

 

[HiddenBowser]

OMG, how are you not getting this? When DDD uses a bair, his hurt box can move a little bit, but his hit box still extends way past his hurt box. Like seriously, this is basic stuff. Go look at melee hit boxes, there are plenty of moves that have the hit boxes go way past the hurt boxes. Brawl is the same thing, only we can't look at the hit boxes because there is no action replay.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

OMG, how are you not getting this? When DDD uses a bair, his hurt box can move a little bit, but his hit box still extends way past his hurt box. Like seriously, this is basic stuff. Go look at melee hit boxes, there are plenty of moves that have the hit boxes go way past the hurt boxes. Brawl is the same thing, only we can't look at the hit boxes because there is no action replay.

I positioned Dedede so that the furthest hitbox of his Bair would just overlap Wario's hitbox. If Wario was not using bite, Dedede would have whiffed the attack. However, when I applied Wario's bite, Dedede's foot was nowhere near him and Dedede still took damage.

Dedede's entire foot is a hurtbox, and obviously his hitbox is also tied to said hurtbox.

Another interesting thing I found. I had Dedede Bair the spark from Lucas's Fair. Dedede took damage, Lucas did not. Lucas's hexagons are DISJOINTED HITBOXES. Dedede's bair is not.

 

[Levitas]

so what about peach's bair in melee? or sheik's?

 

[HiddenBowser]

edit (10 char)

 

[Omis]

Face it Bowyer YOUR WRONG. No matter how many times you tell NessBounder he sucks balls he will still be right. Give up your making a fool of yourself.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I don't know, I'm not going to boot up Melee to test those right now. But I do know that Peach's Bair often traded hits with things. Perhaps the hitboxes in Melee were different.

And I do remember that some physical Bairs in Melee were truly disjointed like Samus's, but not by much since the legs could be hit.

Sword and weapon attacks are REALLY disjointed.

 

[HiddenBowser]

lol, your last post just proved that you're wrong.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

lol, your last post just proved that you're wrong.

How so? Melee =/= Brawl.

Besides, I want to check the hitboxes and the hurtboxes of these attacks in Melee first so I can compare them with their Brawl counterparts as best I can.

Also, I've still proved my point that Lucas's disjointed hitboxes are better than a lot of the cast. It's just that compared to the likes of Metaknight, he lacks the range and at best he'll trade hits.

That doesn't mean his priority sucks. And his range is decent.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Fine, enough **** talking, if you want proof look at this:
http://www.bigprojects.net/sean/ssbmhitbox/ssbmhitbox.html

the yellow boxes are hurt boxes and the red boxes are hit boxes. Basically all aerial attacks have hit boxes that extend past the hurt boxes (ie. the red boxes extend past the yellow boxes), those are disjointed attacks. Sure, its true that things like swords generally are slightly more disjointed (its only slightly more disjointed, you can compare marth's nair with other nairs and the hit boxes extend past the hurt boxes about the same), but almost all aerials are disjointed. This is basically what determines how much priority any given move has (ie. moves with larger red areas that don't overlap yellow areas have more priority).

Brawl works exactly the same way, moves that have more priority have larger areas where the hit boxes do not overlap the hurt boxes.

 

[HiddenBowser]

Also, I've still proved my point that Lucas's disjointed hitboxes are better than a lot of the cast. It's just that compared to the likes of Metaknight, he lacks the range and at best he'll trade hits.

That doesn't mean his priority sucks. And his range is decent.

fine, if thats true about warios bite, then i'll give you that lucas' priority is a little bit better than a lot of the cast's, but its still true that his range sucks and it makes it so that lucas has one of the worst approach games in the game.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Fine, enough **** talking, if you want proof look at this:
http://www.bigprojects.net/sean/ssbmhitbox/ssbmhitbox.html

the yellow boxes are hurt boxes and the red boxes are hit boxes. Basically all aerial attacks have hit boxes that extend past the hurt boxes (ie. the red boxes extend past the yellow boxes), those are disjointed attacks. Sure, its true that things like swords generally are slightly more disjointed (its only slightly more disjointed, you can compare marth's nair with other nairs and the hit boxes extend past the hurt boxes about the same), but almost all aerials are disjointed. This is basically what determines how much priority any given move has (ie. moves with larger red areas that don't overlap yellow areas have more priority).

Brawl works exactly the same way, moves that have more priority have larger areas where the hit boxes do not overlap the hurt boxes.

Fair enough. I was under the impression that hitboxes and hurtboxes for physical attacks were linked in Brawl. Although if you look at most of them, the hitbox doesn't extend far enough beyond the hurtbox for it to really make too much difference. So let me re-word my previous statement:

Lucas's disjointed hitboxes extend beyond his hurtbox more than many other characters who are attacking using parts of their body. So in essence, unless he's faced with a particularly disjointed hitbox like one belonging to a weapon or energy burst, his hitboxes are more disjointed than a lot of others.

Looking at that frame data application, if Lucas and Sheik were to attack each other at the same time with Fair and Bair, they'd trade hits. If Sheik were to miscalculate her attack to whiff Lucas, then Lucas would win because his hitbox would pass over her hurtbox (her leg) without his own coming into contact with her hurtbox. Technically Lucas's is better as a hitbox since it extends much further beyond his hurtbox, but his legs aren't very long to begin with, so as an attack, it's not as effective.

But yeah, against characters with more range on their attacks overall, it will seem like he has low priority because he lacks the range that a lot of sword users do.

Since we don't have AR for Brawl yet, the best we can do to test it manually in slow training mode like I've been doing.

But to the point, Lucas's attacks actually do have decent priority. There's quite a bit of difference between his foot/hand and the spark from his attack. More than Dedede's Bair anyway.

I have to admit, Melee Samus's Bair is pretty crazy though. She doesn't even have hurtboxes on her feet. WTF?

 

[HiddenBowser]

no matter how disjointed his moves are, it still doesn't matter because lucas has the arm and leg length of a ****** and he can't do **** approachingly or defensively with them.

Face it Bowyer YOUR WRONG. No matter how many times you tell NessBounder he sucks balls he will still be right. Give up your making a fool of yourself.

lmao at you being wrong

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

And yeah. I'm not going to argue that his approach is incredible, but it's not awful. He has Dair and Bair, both of which can be used safely. And besides, Lucas is better suited to defensive play I find.
Also, shorthopped Fair can't be so easily punished if you pull back halfway through the short hop. It auto-cancels if you do it right away, so it's not horribly unsafe if you use it properly.

And I'm not wrong. What I said before still applies. Lucas's hitboxes extend further beyond his hurtbox than most characters, and many of these moves do not have terrible range in proportion to his small, compact hurtbox. Especially not his smash attacks.

And he's quite adept at using them defensively.