A "Post Metaknight" Marth

[Kouryuu]

MK ***** Fox.

/end.

 

[Nic64]

A post MK fox would be nice too xD.

ugh, MK alone does not hold down mid and lower tier characters. great characters like marth, falco, game and watch, snake, DDD etc. stand to benefit, it's not going to matter much for middle of the pack characters I think, they'll still be at a disadvantage constantly. anyway, somehow I see a ban being great for D3, **** you sakurai =/

 

[Darxmarth23]

EL is right. marth will stay where he is. Snake will be hoggin all the glory

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can see Marth moving up a few spots (although I actually consider him already top tier). Losing your single worst match-up will help of course. I also don't think Marth is that hard to learn (hell, this is brawl. No character is really "hard" to learn) so I can imagine his popularity will rise a little (among good players of course)

 

[philbobjoe]

Fox has more trouble with Pikachu than anyone.

 

[∫unk]

Seriously Bengalz save your breath people will say 60:40 you believe 55:45 you realize how little of a difference that makes?

1. It doesn't change the strategy you would use against a TL.
2. It's a stupid percentage that you shouldn't be taking seriously/letting it affect your play to begin with.
3. You literally wrote longer than my college english paper theorycrafting about a 10% difference in one matchup.

I think it's time for you to go outside.

 

[Remzi]

Seriously Bengalz save your breath people will say 60:40 you believe 55:45 you realize how little of a difference that makes?

1. It doesn't change the strategy you would use against a TL.
2. It's a stupid percentage that you shouldn't be taking seriously/letting it affect your play to begin with.
3. You literally wrote longer than my college english paper theorycrafting about a 10% difference in one matchup.

I think it's time for you to go outside.

>_> i guess you're right, except for the last part you bast*rd

But really, I just wanted to hear WHY I was wrong, because I felt like I was bringing up valid points the whole way through, yet it was still being called 60:40...

 

[adumbrodeus]

There has been a lot of discussion going on about possibly banning the infamous Metaknight. I'm sure most of you are familiar with this topic:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197057

So as I was reading this topic, I found a good deal of discussion regarding the metagame after the absence of MK. Many posters including Yuna mentioned Marth as possibly becoming the new dominant force in Brawl if MK were to be banned. Their reasoning simply because: "He has no bad matchups except for MK."

I found this rather absurd, although Marth may have terrific matchups, he goes even with about a 4th of the cast, and doesn't really have too many **** matchups. Plus, to be honest I've never really been convinced that Marth vs Snake is only 55:45, or that we go even with D3. But aside from that, he doesn't really destroy most of the lower characters, and goes even with most of the tops/highs. That being said, most tourney players are using high and top tier characters anyways, therefore they won't really have to be making any changes in their character choice to face a Marth. And if they are using a lower tiered character, they're probably fortunate to be fighting against a Marth, considering Falco, ROB, Snake, and maybe even D3 do a much better job of tearing apart weaker characters.

So the way I see it, not too many people will really be changing characters against a Marth, unless they already were to begin with. In which case Snake still has a slight advantage on him so they can always use him as a (sorta) counter.

tl;dr version: Stop being a lazy *** and take 2-3 minutes out of your day to read my 3 paragraphs.

So now I ask, what are your thoughts on Marth possibly becoming the best character, or even rising at all, if MK were to be banned?

*EDIT: Something I forgot to add, Marth is a less extreme case of TL, in that he is amazing on paper, but doesn't tend to do as well as expected in most cases. Unlike MK who ***** on paper and ***** in game.

Being the other main person putting across this theory and having said it before many times, I feel the need to respond to this.


You are misunderstanding the argument, to a degree. Dominant force was not the word used, and it's not really appropriate. What Yuna was arguing was that he would become the most popular character and the character with the most wins. The ratio wasn't really the issue, Yuna was NOT saying that he would have anywhere near the influence on the metagame that MK does. It was merely a reductio ad absurdum argument, because people were putting forth those justifacations for banning MK (most popular, most wins).


I, on the other hand, was arguing that he would be the character with the most wins, making no reference to popularity. I pointed to Yuna's ideas because I wanted to make a point about poor ban criterias being used and the need for a consistent one.



As for why I think Marth will be the best in a post-mk world, here's it, many of the current "top tiers" will become a great deal less viable with MK gone. As a general rule, they thrive in an enviroment without MK, simply because he eliminates their bad match-ups with a great deal more efficency then he eliminates them.

Snake is a perfect example of this, granted he does have upper tier counters, he has other lower counters that are probably more signifigant. For example, Olimar, easily beaten by MK (except on Shadow Moses, which is banned), would an increase in olimar's viability not hurt Snake's standings?

There's enough known counters that are easily beaten by MK to make all of the the top/high tier characters lose signifigant standing were they ever to become more viable, except Marth that is.

Marth... beyond MK he has 55-45 match-ups, at worst. Given that match, on equal skill levels, a slightly higher percentage of the opposing character will win. At 60-40 level, it becomes signifigant, and at the 70-30 level it's near impossible.

All other characters would have to fight their 60-40 match-ups signifigantly with signifigantly more frequency, and many would have to fight their 70-30 match-ups more often.

Marth would only have his most disadvantagious match-up removed. His remaining technical disadvantages? Snake and DDD should both become less viable due to counters becoming more prevelent.

The rest of high top/high tier? 60-40s pretty much, Marth's advantage. ROB is the only exception here being a dead neutral, and he still has disadvantages.


The net result is that Marth's average win ratio in any individual match will be the highest, assuming equal skill. This will mean that overall, Marth players will take more tournaments then any other character and being a Marth main in a tournament will net you the best results of any character.

It won't be by ANYWHERE NEAR the margin MK has, but it will still be there.


Obviously this is speculation, but based on the evidence that currently exists, I consider this the most logical outcome.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Stop dreaming, dude

 

[adumbrodeus]

Stop dreaming, dude

Stop spamming dude


If you disagree poke holes in my logic and facts. Don't just say,"you're wrong because I said so".

 

[marth69]

The rest of high top/high tier? 60-40s pretty much, Marth's advantage. ROB is the only exception here being a dead neutral, and he still has disadvantages.


The net result is that Marth's average win ratio in any individual match will be the highest, assuming equal skill. This will mean that overall, Marth players will take more tournaments then any other character and being a Marth main in a tournament will net you the best results of any character.

It won't be by ANYWHERE NEAR the margin MK has, but it will still be there.


Obviously this is speculation, but based on the evidence that currently exists, I consider this the most logical outcome.

Snake vs Marth=55:45 Snake
D3 vs Marth=50:50 Even (I think I may be wrong)
Marth vs. ROB=50:50 Even
Marth vs. GnW=60:40 Marth
Marth vs. Falco=60:40 Marth

Those are the top tier characters other than MK as thought by the SBR. I only see 2 60:40's. ROB is not the only exception.

Marth will not dominate tournaments if MK is banned. Just because he has good matchups doesn't mean he'll dominate because of these facts:

1. He isn't as easy to pick up as MK (by far) so he won't dominate the scene.
2. His matchups aren't **** like MK's are.
3. His recovery is mediocre and for the most part very predictable. (No under stage gimmicks or anything)
4. He doesn't have a spammable kill move, and almost every other top tier character does.

Falco has his spike
ROB has ???? (Nothing super spammable, but very powerful aerials)
Snake has Ftilt and Utilt
GnW has his smashes
D3 has Utilt? (I don't know Dedede too well so I'm not sure if his Utilt is spammable, but I know it is quite powerful)

Yeah, so what I'm saying is that Marth isn't and never will be as dominate as MK is.

Spoiler

Unless some uber AT is found with him

EDIT: I didn't say you are wrong "because I said so," I "poked holes in your logic"

 

[nonemus]

You are all stupid.
He will not be in the same place.

He will be #6 cus MK wont be 1 anymore.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

kk, here's the full version

As for why I think Marth will be the best in a post-mk world, here's it, many of the current "top tiers" will become a great deal less viable with MK gone.

On the contrary. Dedede loses his worst match-up and only has Falco as a bad match-up in top tier. Falco now has one bad match-up lell - arguably his worst. Same goes for ROB, who only loses to GnW now.

As a general rule, they thrive in an enviroment without MK, simply because he eliminates their bad match-ups with a great deal more efficency then he eliminates them.

It's unlikely that top tiers will be affected that much (in a negative way). Pikachu may be more tournament viable with MK gone but he's still a worse character. Same goes for Diddy, Iceys, Kirby et al. The ones who will benefit the most would be Pika and Wario, since both of them are doing well vs Top tiers minus MK (and a 2nd character. In Pikas case its GnW in Warios case it's D3)

Snake is a perfect example of this, granted he does have upper tier counters, he has other lower counters that are probably more signifigant. For example, Olimar, easily beaten by MK (except on Shadow Moses, which is banned), would an increase in olimar's viability not hurt Snake's standings?

No it wouldn't since this scenario is highly unlikely to happen. Why would anybody use Olimar against Snake, if he could use Falco, Dedede or ROB? All of them are not only doing better vs Snale but are overall better characters too. Everything below high tier won't be affected by the MK ban at all.

There's enough known counters that are easily beaten by MK to make all of the the top/high tier characters lose signifigant standing were they ever to become more viable, except Marth that is.

There aren't many. I admit Marth is one of them (although I already consider him top tier) but other than that I can only think of the higher part of high tier rising: Wario, Marth, Lucario, Pikachu and DK. That's pretty much it.

Marth... beyond MK he has 55-45 match-ups, at worst. Given that match, on equal skill levels, a slightly higher percentage of the opposing character will win. At 60-40 level, it becomes signifigant, and at the 70-30 level it's near impossible.

Except that the last word on match-up's isn't spoken yet. These numbers are just approximations and can easily change from one day to another. The Marth boards are debateing for exapmle whether DK should be 45:55 in DKs favour. That would make 3 45:55 match-up's (and even that dooesn't mean it's completely true. There are ppl who argue that DDD has the advanage. In fact Roy_R is one of those ppl) and whether they are truly 45:55 or rather 40:60 will be seen sooner or later.

All other characters would have to fight their 60-40 match-ups signifigantly with signifigantly more frequency, and many would have to fight their 70-30 match-ups more often.

Not with MK gone. You still overrate the amount of how much the other character benefit. But that's an illusion and nothing else. Dedede won't be facing more Olimars, who still loses to GnW, Marth and ROB. ROB won't face more Marios, who still does terible against Falco, GnW and Dedede. Dedede will have about 2 40:60 match-up's (Falco, Pikachu) but that's it. And that's not much worse than Marths 3 45:55 match-up's (two of these match-up's are more overused than either Falco and Pikachu). In fact it can be even considered better (but that's a question of personal taste)

Marth would only have his most disadvantagious match-up removed. His remaining technical disadvantages? Snake and DDD should both become less viable due to counters becoming more prevelent.

I already commented on that...

The rest of high top/high tier? 60-40s pretty much, Marth's advantage. ROB is the only exception here being a dead neutral, and he still has disadvantages.

The rest? Marth doesn't do well against the two 2nd best characters and has no advantage vs. another one either. DK will be more used too (I assume) so that makes another match-up that's not in Marths favour.

Obviously this is speculation, but based on the evidence that currently exists, I consider this the most logical outcome.

Evidence? There is no evidence existing at all right now

 

[adumbrodeus]

Snake vs Marth=55:45 Snake
D3 vs Marth=50:50 Even (I think I may be wrong)
Marth vs. ROB=50:50 Even
Marth vs. GnW=60:40 Marth
Marth vs. Falco=60:40 Marth

Those are the top tier characters other than MK as thought by the SBR. I only see 2 60:40's. ROB is not the only exception.

Please don't take me out of context, that was dependant on the previous set of words.

I had already discussed Snake and DDD, and by "the rest", I meant "everyone other then them in the tiers I was refering too".

Marth will not dominate tournaments if MK is banned. Just because he has good matchups doesn't mean he'll dominate because of these facts:

1. He isn't as easy to pick up as MK (by far) so he won't dominate the scene.
2. His matchups aren't **** like MK's are.
3. His recovery is mediocre and for the most part very predictable. (No under stage gimmicks or anything)
4. He doesn't have a spammable kill move, and almost every other top tier character does.

Falco has his spike
ROB has ???? (Nothing super spammable, but very powerful aerials)
Snake has Ftilt and Utilt
GnW has his smashes
D3 has Utilt? (I don't know Dedede too well so I'm not sure if his Utilt is spammable, but I know it is quite powerful)

Yeah, so what I'm saying is that Marth isn't and never will be as dominate as MK is.

Spoiler

Unless some uber AT is found with him

I could point out issues with your facts/logic, but I see no need to.

You're right, he won't "dominate", he'll simply be "the best". That's all I'm saying.

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Can't resist, I'll point out some issues.

Falco's spike isn't really spamable, and it's a gimp move anyway, not a kill move.

You're think bair for DDD.

I only skimmed that section since it's not really relevant, I'll let other people deal with it.

EDIT: I didn't say you are wrong "because I said so," I "poked holes in your logic"

That wasn't refering to you, I was talking to Gheb_01.

Nobody else was covered by that comment, that was why I quoted him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Just call me Gheb
You gotta comment on my stuff!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just call me Gheb
You gotta comment on my stuff!

You posted while I was posting, here you go:

On the contrary. Dedede loses his worst match-up and only has Falco as a bad match-up in top tier. Falco now has one bad match-up lell - arguably his worst. Same goes for ROB, who only loses to GnW now.

Look... who's in top tier NOW doesn't matter that much because we'll see a complete reorganization of the tiers.

Based on how well they compete in a metagameless enviroment, their status will rise and they'll see more play if MK is banned.

It doesn't matter if a character has only one counter in top tier. If they have counters elsewhere that were surpressed because of MK but are otherwise strong characters (pikachu and Olimar are perhaps the easiest examples) that disadvantage will play a signifigant role in the metagame.

BTW, Falco has Marth and G&W, and more down the line.

It's unlikely that top tiers will be affected that much (in a negative way). Pikachu may be more tournament viable with MK gone but he's still a worse character. Same goes for Diddy, Iceys, Kirby et al. The ones who will benefit the most would be Pika and Wario, since both of them are doing well vs Top tiers minus MK (and a 2nd character. In Pikas case its GnW in Warios case it's D3)

They're worse, but not worse off, but the point is they'll still be prevelant enough to take off a signifigant chunk of their disadvantages.

Without MK to beat them down, they'll be winning more tournies and placing higher, OF COURSE they'll be hurting their counters more, especially hard counters.


Of course... really this won't hurt them, just IN COMPARISON to other characters.

Most will probably win more total tournaments, but have a lesser share of the "tournaments mk didn't win", probably a greater share of the tournaments as a whole as well.

No it wouldn't since this scenario is highly unlikely to happen. Why would anybody use Olimar against Snake, if he could use Falco, Dedede or ROB? All of them are not only doing better vs Snale but are overall better characters too. Everything below high tier won't be affected by the MK ban at all.

Because people play that character?

Olimar being more viable increases the concentration of characters that Counter Snake. He does the same to DDD btw.

There aren't many. I admit Marth is one of them (although I already consider him top tier) but other than that I can only think of the higher part of high tier rising: Wario, Marth, Lucario, Pikachu and DK. That's pretty much it.

No, the entire metagame is going to be adjusted.

An omnipresent character doesn't just pick up and leave, there are signifigant consequences.

More important are the characters moving down. Don't get me wrong, most characters will probably take home more tournament wins then before. But some will increase their share less then others.

Except that the last word on match-up's isn't spoken yet. These numbers are just approximations and can easily change from one day to another. The Marth boards are debateing for exapmle whether DK should be 45:55 in DKs favour. That would make 3 45:55 match-up's (and even that dooesn't mean it's completely true. There are ppl who argue that DDD has the advanage. In fact Roy_R is one of those ppl) and whether they are truly 45:55 or rather 40:60 will be seen sooner or later.

Of course, but we can only go on the information we have no. If things change, then obviously my metagame analysis has to change to reflect this.

I do not pretend to be omniscent.

Not with MK gone. You still overrate the amount of how much the other character benefit. But that's an illusion and nothing else. Dedede won't be facing more Olimars, who still loses to GnW, Marth and ROB. ROB won't face more Marios, who still does terible against Falco, GnW and Dedede. Dedede will have about 2 40:60 match-up's (Falco, Pikachu) but that's it. And that's not much worse than Marths 3 45:55 match-up's (two of these match-up's are more overused than either Falco and Pikachu). In fact it can be even considered better (but that's a question of personal taste)

Yes, they will.

Because regardless of the fact they still have counters, no counter in that metagame will be as signifigant as MK.

Why? Numbers and efficency. MK is better at totally removing his advantages from the metagame then any other character.

How much of an increase we'll see may or may not be large depending on the character BUT it will happen.

The rest? Marth doesn't do well against the two 2nd best characters and has no advantage vs. another one either. DK will be more used too (I assume) so that makes another match-up that's not in Marths favour.

You might want to recheck your match-ups.

Falco, Wario, G&W, etc.

Marth soft-counters plenty of characters.

Has 2 slightly uphill match-up, 2 50-50s, and the rest are advantages of some stripe (minus MK obviously).

Evidence? There is no evidence existing at all right now

Analyze the metagame better, look at who MK counters, especially 65-35 or better. Look at who they counter, especially 65-35 or better.

There's a lot of reorganization that will happen if this ever comes to pass.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Look... who's in top tier NOW doesn't matter that much because we'll see a complete reorganization of the tiers.

No. The top tier still have better match-up than everybody else. There won't be a reorganisation at all. Why should there be? Does Zelda become a good character now that MK is gone? No she doesn't. She's still far from tourney viable. If there is a "reorganisation" it's a "natural" one, that would've taken place sooner or later anyways (as in Melee, where the spacies surpassed Sheik or ICs getting int upper mid tier).
MK absecne won't make anybody more viable than they already are and vice versa.

Based on how well they compete in a metagameless enviroment, their status will rise and they'll see more play if MK is banned.

No. They still can't compete with other top tier characters.

It doesn't matter if a character has only one counter in top tier. If they have counters elsewhere that were surpressed because of MK but are otherwise strong characters (pikachu and Olimar are perhaps the easiest examples) that disadvantage will play a signifigant role in the metagame.

That's absurd and illusional. People won't flock to characters like Olimar. Why should they? ROB does better against Snake and everybody else in top tier and is overall the better character. Why would anybody pick a worse choice if he can go with somebody better?

BTW, Falco has Marth and G&W, and more down the line.

Marth, GnW and MK. That's all. With MK gone that's 2 40:60 match-up's. Not any worse than Marths 3 45:55 match-up's

They're worse, but not worse off, but the point is they'll still be prevelant enough to take off a signifigant chunk of their disadvantages.Without MK to beat them down, they'll be winning more tournies and placing higher, OF COURSE they'll be hurting their counters more, especially hard counters.

No, they still have too many disadvantages. MK being banned doesn't help Olimars trouble with ROB, Marth, GnW and his recovery, which is just too easily exploited in high level play.

Of course... really this won't hurt them, just IN COMPARISON to other characters.
Most will probably win more total tournaments, but have a lesser share of the "tournaments mk didn't win", probably a greater share of the tournaments as a whole as well.

On the contrarty. Top tiers will benefit more (I'll explain below)

Because people play that character?

Much, much more people play top tier characters

Olimar being more viable increases the concentration of characters that Counter Snake. He does the same to DDD btw.

OLIMAR. DOES. NOT. BECOME. MORE. VIABLE. PERIOD.
He has too many disadvantages. MK is just one of a bunch. In Falcos case MK is one of a very few.

No, the entire metagame is going to be adjusted.

An omnipresent character doesn't just pick up and leave, there are signifigant consequences.

The qonsequences will be that fromer MK players will use the next best characters. That would be: SNake, KingDedede, Falco, ROB, Mr Game And Watch, Wario, Pikachu, Marth

More important are the characters moving down. Don't get me wrong, most characters will probably take home more tournament wins then before. But some will increase their share less then others.

Not really. it's more likely that the top tier will be more balanced. Everything below high tier still can't compete

Because regardless of the fact they still have counters, no counter in that metagame will be as signifigant as MK.

Not in every case. Some ppl have more troubes with other characters. I'll explain in detail below

Why? Numbers and efficency. MK is better at totally removing his advantages from the metagame then any other character.

You might want to recheck your match-ups.

I know then very well, as I play all top tier and many high tier characters and have actual experience in this regard. I also know what ppl say. Match-up threads aren't everything and can be of. Look at GnW for example - they're match-up thread has Marth, Snake and MK as neutral match-up. Does that mean it's true?

Marth soft-counters plenty of characters.

Dedede, Snake, GnW and Falco hard counter most of these characters and are better characters than Marth.

Has 2 slightly uphill match-up, 2 50-50s, and the rest are advantages of some stripe (minus MK obviously).

That's what the Marth board says now. That doesn't mean that it is and will always. Remember that a very selected few, who post in the match-up thread are at the highest level of the game. But what if Roy_R says that King Dedede has the advantage? Is he wrong too because the match-up thread says otherwise? Could it be that Marth actually has a disadvantage against DK but few know about this as this specific match-up was rarely played on the highest level? As I said: The last word on match-up isn't spoken yet.

Analyze the metagame better, look at who MK counters, especially 65-35 or better. Look at who they counter, especially 65-35 or better.

Analyze the Metagame better yourself. Look at which characters are good and which are not. Look at which have glaring weaknesses (like Olimar) and those who don't (Top tiers in genereal + Marth, Wario, Luc, Pika and maybe DK). Think, who will people actually use to stop Snake: Olimar? Or better characters, with better match-up's and better attributes such as King dedede, Pikachu, Falco or ROB.

There's a lot of reorganization that will happen if this ever comes to pass.

That's an assumption.


The mistake you made is obvious. You say that MKs absence will affect all characters equally but this is far from true. Yes, MK does have the advantage oneveryone but himself but that doesn't mean that Fox will benefit as much as Falco will. Why? Because Fox will lose one of many bad match-up's. He still struggles a lot to compete, especially against Snake, ROB, GnW and Falco himself.

Falco on the other hand loses one of three bad match-up's. Now only GnW and Marth have an advantage on him - he benefits more from the MK ban.

Or look at ROB vs Olimar. Both are soft counters for Snake. If MK is banned ROB loses one of three bad match-up's in top tier (He still has a disadvantage to Mario but who cares...). That means he only is disadvantaged to King Dedede and GnW. Olimar on the other hand still loses to ROB, Marth, GnW and other characters on a similar level as him such as Wolf.
Obviously ROB benefits more from MKs ban than Olimar. Thus more ppl will use ROB than Olimar. More ppl will use Falco over Fox. And for the same reasons GnW (who loeses one of three disadvantages) will benefit more from MK neing banned than - let's say - Luigi.

Tl;dr Mid-tier characters won't be more viable. The balance just spreads around the current top tier, who lost to MK before

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gheb is correct.

Unless your name is Marth, ROB, Dedede, Falco or G&W you will not benefit from MK's ban.

Also I don't consider 45/55 neutral. I consider it slight advantage.

If it was neutral I would call it 50/50.

I suppose for alot of people it's just perception, but for the Marth boards I more or less instilled my sense of match-ups into them.

Also the reason why I call it like that is because as far as I know Snakes and Dedede's don't seem to think they have a solid advantage on Marth. But...by looking at their tools I came to the conclusion that more then likely they will have a slight advantage.

Marth easily benefits the most as MK almost single handedly holds him down. Not just in the match-up, but as far as how many people play MK over Marth.

Why put effort into an inferior character when you can play one that is easier to use and is better overall. MK's presence alone hurts Marth's popularity as well as his tournament results.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Please don't take me out of context, that was dependant on the previous set of words.

I had already discussed Snake and DDD, and by "the rest", I meant "everyone other then them in the tiers I was refering too".

Sorry about that


I could point out issues with your facts/logic, but I see no need to.

You're right, he won't "dominate", he'll simply be "the best". That's all I'm saying.

No, he won't, since he has a bad matchup against Snake and goes even with ROB and D3, and there probably won't be anyone that rises above the others if MK is banned imo, I think the tourney results will be fairly balanced with maybe someone slightly on top, but not by much, which is why MK should be banned, to make it more balanced.

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Can't resist, I'll point out some issues.

Falco's spike isn't really spamable, and it's a gimp move anyway, not a kill move.

Yes it is spammable, and any move that kills is a kill move in my book. And he can spam Dsmash if he want to.

You're think bair for DDD.

But isn't Bair more of a walling move for D3, not one of the moves he relies on to kill?

I only skimmed that section since it's not really relevant, I'll let other people deal with it.





That wasn't refering to you, I was talking to Gheb_01.

Nobody else was covered by that comment, that was why I quoted him.

Comments in bold.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Totally forgot about this thread, last post was less then a month ago so, let me finally respond.

No. The top tier still have better match-up than everybody else. There won't be a reorganisation at all. Why should there be? Does Zelda become a good character now that MK is gone? No she doesn't. She's still far from tourney viable. If there is a "reorganisation" it's a "natural" one, that would've taken place sooner or later anyways (as in Melee, where the spacies surpassed Sheik or ICs getting int upper mid tier).
MK absecne won't make anybody more viable than they already are and vice versa.

Wait... so if a character does worse against MK, but has overall better match-ups, they won't do better if MK is banned?

That's lol-worthy.

I'm not saying that, say, Zelda will be top tier, but the entire tier list will be re-organized.

Sure, you can't expect say, Ganondorf to move up to top tier, but based on how well they perform many characters will move up or down. Generally, they should stay within their existing tier. Some if they're close to the edge, or recieve a particularly large boost/loss from MK being gone could move up/down a tier.

I haven't fully analyzed all the characters, but so far, nothing dramatic enough to unseat DDD. BUT, they'll be signifigant change in all the slots.

No. They still can't compete with other top tier characters.

But they don't have to win, they just have to eliminate characters in the early rounds.

They can't compete with the top tiers overall, but they WILL get to later and later rounds on average, eliminating more and more of the characters they counter-pick.

That's absurd and illusional. People won't flock to characters like Olimar. Why should they? ROB does better against Snake and everybody else in top tier and is overall the better character. Why would anybody pick a worse choice if he can go with somebody better?

Firstly, because there's already a reasonable pool of Olimar players, they just get eliminated very early becauser of MK.

Also, there's a number of players who switched off just because of MK's dominance, without a "**** entire cast" character, they'll go back.

Olimar will be good enough in that enviroment to attract some mains based on that fact, and his pool of Olimar-lovers in addition to that will be enough to have a sizable effect when they get past the first few rounds.

Marth, GnW and MK. That's all. With MK gone that's 2 40:60 match-up's. Not any worse than Marths 3 45:55 match-up's

Yes it is...

40:60 is CONSIDERABLY more uphill then 45:55. 45:55 is a barely noticable advantage.

No, they still have too many disadvantages. MK being banned doesn't help Olimars trouble with ROB, Marth, GnW and his recovery, which is just too easily exploited in high level play.

But you're missing the piont, none of those will be as omni-present as MK, which will allow him to get to later rounds, eliminating more of the people that have issues with him.

Much, much more people play top tier characters

OLIMAR. DOES. NOT. BECOME. MORE. VIABLE. PERIOD.
He has too many disadvantages. MK is just one of a bunch. In Falcos case MK is one of a very few.

Lol, you're making the assumption he needs to win. But every round he remains in tournaments, he eliminates characters that he has advantages over.

With MK everywhere, he's lucky to make it past the first match. None of his disadvantages will be as common as MK was, so this will no longer be the case. Sure, he won't win on average (he'll take some, but that's a side topic), BUT him and other character in the same position as him will result in fewer of those characters going further into tournaments.

The qonsequences will be that fromer MK players will use the next best characters. That would be: SNake, KingDedede, Falco, ROB, Mr Game And Watch, Wario, Pikachu, Marth

We're not talking about what people will gravitate to... MK has a different set of advantages then the rest of the cast. Him being gone will mean different characters are prefered now.

Not really. it's more likely that the top tier will be more balanced. Everything below high tier still can't compete

They won't be able to compete in RESULTS, generally speaking, I can think of any character that will have a meteoric rise, but there's so much to go through it's possible. But every character that MK counters will be signifigantly more prevelent.

Not in every case. Some ppl have more troubes with other characters. I'll explain in detail below

Yes, they do. Doesn't that MK isn't ultimately more effective at doing this for many of them simply because of numbers.

I know then very well, as I play all top tier and many high tier characters and have actual experience in this regard. I also know what ppl say. Match-up threads aren't everything and can be of. Look at GnW for example - they're match-up thread has Marth, Snake and MK as neutral match-up. Does that mean it's true?

I'm not nessecarily refering to individual match-up threads.

That said, the entire top tier, minus marth, has signifigant disadvantages that are lower then top tier.

Dedede, Snake, GnW and Falco hard counter most of these characters and are better characters than Marth.

Not even collectively, they do soft counter them collectively though.

"Better" is in terms of the metagame, if Marth fairs better in tournaments, he's a better character.

That's what the Marth board says now. That doesn't mean that it is and will always. Remember that a very selected few, who post in the match-up thread are at the highest level of the game. But what if Roy_R says that King Dedede has the advantage? Is he wrong too because the match-up thread says otherwise? Could it be that Marth actually has a disadvantage against DK but few know about this as this specific match-up was rarely played on the highest level? As I said: The last word on match-up isn't spoken yet.

Analyze the Metagame better yourself. Look at which characters are good and which are not. Look at which have glaring weaknesses (like Olimar) and those who don't (Top tiers in genereal + Marth, Wario, Luc, Pika and maybe DK). Think, who will people actually use to stop Snake: Olimar? Or better characters, with better match-up's and better attributes such as King dedede, Pikachu, Falco or ROB.

I'm not suggesting people will switch from Snake to Olimar. I'm suggesting that current Olimar mains + those who switched away from Olimar directly because of MK will be enough, in conjunction with other characters, to signifigantly change which characters are winning.

The mistake you made is obvious. You say that MKs absence will affect all characters equally but this is far from true. Yes, MK does have the advantage oneveryone but himself but that doesn't mean that Fox will benefit as much as Falco will. Why? Because Fox will lose one of many bad match-up's. He still struggles a lot to compete, especially against Snake, ROB, GnW and Falco himself.

Falco on the other hand loses one of three bad match-up's. Now only GnW and Marth have an advantage on him - he benefits more from the MK ban.

Or look at ROB vs Olimar. Both are soft counters for Snake. If MK is banned ROB loses one of three bad match-up's in top tier (He still has a disadvantage to Mario but who cares...). That means he only is disadvantaged to King Dedede and GnW. Olimar on the other hand still loses to ROB, Marth, GnW and other characters on a similar level as him such as Wolf.
Obviously ROB benefits more from MKs ban than Olimar. Thus more ppl will use ROB than Olimar. More ppl will use Falco over Fox. And for the same reasons GnW (who loeses one of three disadvantages) will benefit more from MK neing banned than - let's say - Luigi.

Tl;dr Mid-tier characters won't be more viable. The balance just spreads around the current top tier, who lost to MK before

No... not at all. If I made a mistake it's the opposite, assuming that it will be TOO selective.


I am not suggesting any of those characters will be top tier, I am point to one thing and one thing alone. Without MK they will be able to eliminate enough of the current top tier to signifigantly change the order and distribution. This new distribution will favor an "all-around" character like Marth as opposed to those that destroy and are destroyed.

Why is Snake so far ahead of number 3? Is it perhaps because he doesn't get eliminated by low-leveled MKs anywhere near as easily as just about any other character and has overall good match-ups?

Unless your name is Marth, ROB, Dedede, Falco or G&W you will not benefit from MK's ban.

That's incorrect. It's a question of how much.

Also I don't consider 45/55 neutral. I consider it slight advantage.

If it was neutral I would call it 50/50.

I suppose for alot of people it's just perception, but for the Marth boards I more or less instilled my sense of match-ups into them.

Fair enough, I was really talking in smashboards parlance, generally speaking I agree with you, but saying "slight advantage" makes everyone think 60-40 outside of the Marth boards.

Also the reason why I call it like that is because as far as I know Snakes and Dedede's don't seem to think they have a solid advantage on Marth. But...by looking at their tools I came to the conclusion that more then likely they will have a slight advantage.

Which I agree with.

Marth easily benefits the most as MK almost single handedly holds him down. Not just in the match-up, but as far as how many people play MK over Marth.

Which is what I'm saying, but we disagree on degree.

No, he won't, since he has a bad matchup against Snake and goes even with ROB and D3, and there probably won't be anyone that rises above the others if MK is banned imo, I think the tourney results will be fairly balanced with maybe someone slightly on top, but not by much, which is why MK should be banned, to make it more balanced.

He's very slightly disadvantaged to Snake and DDD. They have signifigantly disadvantaged match-ups, 60-40 or greater, to eliminate them in higher rates when facing other characters, balancing out the slightly higher rates of loses marth players will have against them as compared to a true neutral.

Yes it is spammable, and any move that kills is a kill move in my book. And he can spam Dsmash if he want to.

Then Marth's fair is a kill move that can be spammed.

Falco's dair is good for gimp kills, but in smash speak, "kill moves" are moves that kill from onstage at reasonable percentages.

But isn't Bair more of a walling move for D3, not one of the moves he relies on to kill?

It does both, it kills at reasonable percentages and can wall.