A New Project for SWF and Competitive Brawl

[SamuraiPanda]

I requested to gain access back here because I am working on a new project alongside Scotu for SWF that has the potential to further the competitive Brawl (regular Brawl) scene as we know it. This project is a website that will compile data that has been gathered regarding Brawl, and specific characters, into a database that is easy to understand/read/access. The database will, in the future, even have the ability to automatically play with the numbers to do things like compare frame data between characters, show what is possible via frame data after sheilding a specific character's attack (i.e. show what moves Snake can do after sheilding MK's dsmash), and much more.

So why did I need to get back here? Well, for one, I want to steal your data! The first thing we'll be working on for the website is entering frame data, and you guys have exactly what we need in that department. The second is that we want your help. The ETA to start entering data into the database is Saturday, and when the site goes active, I'd like to ask for you guys to help us make this project into a success. That will entail helping to enter the relevant values into the database, making suggestions on how to improve the site, and help us study this game in more depth than ever before. The Worshop Back Room is the only group of individuals that could actually make this possible right now. With your help, we can create a resource that every smasher will find absolutely invaluable.

 

[SCOTU]

Regarding the Compiled Data thread, which we have our eyes on for already having much of what we're looking for, I need some clarification on the hitbox data. I presume that's the original data on each hitbox so that you can use that to modify hitbox properties. First off, I'd like some description of exactly what those hex values mean (so that I could make this simply a copy/paste difficulty entry), because I can't seem to line up the amount of data to what each hit has. Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

 

[leafgreen386]

I was wondering when the smash lab was going to do something. That place has been dead for so long.

Although I doubt anyone here minds you using our resources, there's one thing that you seem to have misunderstood: we don't have frame data. In fact, any frame data we do have was taken from already existing frame data threads. The number of moves we've found the frame data for ourselves on is probably in the single digits.

That said, you're welcome to use the hitbox data (which is as of yet incomplete, largely due to PSA's invention making the hitbox code more or less obsolete, except for a few things like projectiles). A brief explanation on how the hitbox code is formatted:

The first line of each hitbox modification will look something like this:

LLMMNNOO PPQQQRRR

LL is the character ID. For example, marth's character ID is 11.
MM is the damage the move does.
NN is the growth knockback of the move.
OO is the base knockback of the move.
PP is the element that plays on hit. For example, electric, darkness, or flower.
QQQ is the angle of the move in degrees. 0 degrees is considered to be the direction the character is facing. Additionally, a special angle 0x169 (361 degrees) appears to resemble at 40 degree angle at higher knockback values, but at low knockback, will not even launch the foe. This angle is still not fully understood.
RRR is the action ID of the attack. For example, utilts use the ID 028, aerials all use 033 (the game seems to differentiate between different aerials with subactions), and specials can use any number of IDs, starting with 112 (which is "neutral special start," if you were wondering). Also, smashes have three IDs, but except for ones like ness's yoyo, they only have hitboxes on the final ID (fsmash = 02C, dsmash = 02F, usmash = 032). You can look up all the different IDs in AA's thread in the workshop if you need them, but the attacks should be labeled by what they are in that thread.

The second and third lines for each hitbox change are formatted differently, but they're for the modifications; that first line is the only one you need to obtain the data about the hitboxes.

Now, I mentioned PSA earlier. You may actually be able to use PSA to obtain accurate frame data without ever having to load the game. I believe the PSA guide in the workshop explains which part controls this, but if not, I'm sure someone could help you find it. In fact, if you were to spend the time working in PSA, you could obtain far more accurate data about every move in the game than you could ever obtain in the same amount of time using another method, including data you cannot obtain from the hitbox code, alone. PSA contains everything - hitbox spawn location, hitbox size, hitbox reverse collision properties (ie. falcon's knee does not have reversible knockback), invincibility, movement, and pretty much anything that could possibly be related to how the attack works - whereas the hitbox code we were using before only contains the bare essential data for editing a hitbox, and does not control all aspects of the move.

 

[shanus]

Neat thread, leafgreen covered most of the details. Also, with proper technique you could successfully image the shape of hitboxes using GFX editors to match the exact bone and hitbox shape if you wanted to. It would be very time consuming, but it can be done.

 

[goodoldganon]

Since you guys have access to this room (assuming you can see other topics) you guys should stop by the IRC channel sometime and send one of us a tell. We can either talk in the WBR channel or somewhere else. We kind of all just hang out in there a lot. It's a pretty reliable way to get in contact with someone.

But ya, I down for helping however we can but as Leaf said, PSA will be the biggest help of anything.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Hm... it may seem like I would have to recruit some additional members for this project that know what they're doing/talking about and can help with the site. Personally, I don't understand anything at all about hacking the game, nor do I have the time to learn and do it myself (med school johns).

Would any of you fine gentleman be willing to help out on this project?

 

[goodoldganon]

Let me see what school is like and I can probably get back to you in a week or two. Senior year and all I might be booked solid trying to finish my degree up. Or maybe it will be one big joke and I'll have time. I can probably get back to you in a week or so to see how I can help.

 

[Shell]

I'm in the same boat as GoG. Put me down as a maybe. Any free time I have would be devoted first and foremost to personal sanity, and the rest set aside for Brawl+ work. However, the project looks admirable, so I'll try to help if I can.

Also, once you know what to look for in PSA (takes less than five minutes to learn the basics) getting values is about as easy as selecting the appropriate tab and writing them down. If you change your mind and want to get the basics, hope on our IRC, SamuraiPanda.

 

[Revven]

I can probably help out, I'm probably the guy back here who has the most time to do something and understand the majority of it to help out with something like this. I don't start back until September 1st but, usually, the first month of school isn't that bad. So, depending on time, I can help out when I can.

SP, if you need to know how to run things in PSA, you could always contact me on here about it.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm probably busy with school for the next week, but after that I can more than likely spend some time on this. I'm used to most thigns that float around here (including PSA), so you can always ask.

 

[The Cape]

See below

10

 

[Veril]

This project is a website that will compile data that has been gathered regarding Brawl, and specific characters, into a database that is easy to understand/read/access. The database will, in the future, even have the ability to automatically play with the numbers to do things like compare frame data between characters, show what is possible via frame data after sheilding a specific character's attack (i.e. show what moves Snake can do after sheilding MK's dsmash), and much more.

So why did I need to get back here? Well, for one, I want to steal your data! The first thing we'll be working on for the website is entering frame data, and you guys have exactly what we need in that department. The second is that we want your help.

lol

I'm already doing this. I have all the frame data for most of the cast, as well as some things like b-reversals, isjr, character hitstun functions, etc. I had never intended to make it public outside of the wbr. Now that I know mods can and will be accessing all the info posted here...

I have no intentions of working on this project. The "stealing of data" is why I haven't been updating my research thread here despite all the things I divulge in the IRC. My major project (the hitstun stuff, ie. on hit option mapping function) has consumed dozens of hours of my time, during which I basically threw out almost everything the smash lab uses to calculate hitstun and launch forces. There's talent there, but from what I've seen you're bogged down by poor methodology.

This is a really thorny issue for me. I really stopped sharing info freely, outside of the wbr, long ago when I realized I got nothing in return for it, generally no credit even. Collecting data is a largely thankless job, and very few understand how long it takes. Those who do... are usually not people I like enough to even consider helping. Here at least I know people like PK, Shanus, Cape, Leaf, Magus, GHNeko, basically the active wbr members. They've helped me immensely and I'm committed to this B+ project, so I don't feel like I'm throwing myself into this work without getting anything back. I find it hilarious that I actually applied for the smashlab , what a waste of time that would have been.

I want to post my work somewhere where I don't need to worry about this sort of thing. ???

 

[The Cape]

Veril makes a very good point.

I have put alot of time into the hitbox and special IDs data collection as has Giza and Paprika Killer. You guys come in here and expect to just take the data? Even if it was to be posted it would be by use as we are the ones doing the work.

Nice to see that my application to join the smash lab was rejected, but the work that I am doing to complete all this data will be taken by you anyway. Now that this has been shown to me in the proper manner I better understand what is going on here. This is complete ****. Glad Brawl+ can do all the work for everyone else. So we now have the Smash Lab and the guys at Better Brawl basically coming to us for our data, but show an overall disdain for our product. Love seeing all kinds of **** like that.

Balanced Brawl already stole the hard work of our coders and you expect to piggyback our hard work for your failing smash lab that hard working people like myself arent good enough for? Excellent.


Also, if you are going to take data for Brawl to enhance the competitive scene then you can just take it for Metaknight since the game only has one character anyway.

 

[leafgreen386]

Although I doubt anyone here minds you using our resources

Hm, seems I was mistaken.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Woah, woah. Hold your horses guys. Who ever said ANYTHING about being uncredited? From the very beginning I have planned to give credit to the people who put their time and effort into the project, to the point of even having their names on the characters they have studied in depth. I fully advocate giving credit to those who worked for it, and I have no interest in actually "stealing" data (it was a joke, if you couldn't tell). I know how it feels to work hard and get **** in return for it. Its happened to me way too much in my own lifetime.

Is getting credit not enough? Well, I even asked you guys for suggestions or advice on how to improve things. I don't want to just use you guys. I want you guys to join me, as equals, to work for the greater good of the entire competitive Brawl community. This project easily has the potential to become an integral part of the tournament community, and could truly receive more use and attention than any other project we have done before.

Honestly, I don't know what else I could do to convince you guys that I'm not out to backstab you or anything. I'm out to thank you for the work you've done, and to help make your work into a greater cohesive whole that can be used and consumed in novel ways by the entire community. I really do hope you guys consider helping me, because I know that your help would become an invaluable resource to this project.

By the way, the Smash Lab died quite some time ago. No applications were truly "rejected." The group just ceased to exist. I'm thinking of what to do with it in the future, but with the WBR in full throttle now, there is nothing the Smash Lab could do better than you guys could.

 

[Team Giza]

I gathered a lot of frame data on moves awhile back. I wish I had access to my computer so I could get some of them for you. I don't care if you take the data that I have collected. But don't expect me to search for data specifically for the Smash labs since you didn't seem to care very much about that when it was offered to you a few months back.

I was just going to be stealing any data I find here for my own gameplay hack project if I am ever able to start it. I may not ever get to start since many aspects of gameplay I need are not possible with PSA. I would need more codes to be able to accomplish the things. After reading this topic however I feel like I should probably ask everyone who has gathered that data if I could apply that to my own project if I ever get over the first few bumps.

 

[Veril]

I have frame data... for more things than most people even know there's frame data for. Honestly, frame data collection was probably the easiest out of all my big projects.

I'll PM Panda and try to sort this out. For me at least, since I've been really concerned about posting data in the wbr for a while (just ask GHNeko lol...). Also, I would like to help with this project... but I am not willing to give it everything and its hard to post information knowing that it isn't secure.

 

[Deleted member]

ok, I wondered this after reading through the OP again. If this program would be able to show what is possible after certain actions, wouldn't it be very easy to make a small rewrite on the program to let it search for infinites?

 

[shanus]

im totally cool with sharing resources, its a great idea. Instead of making your own site, why dont we just dump it as a information page on brawlplus.net ?

That way, we can take veril data, and do a before and after comparison!

 

[Revven]

Soo uhh... when is this happening, Panda? lol

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Scotu has had some issues to take care of last minute, so he is still working on finishing up the site. Sorry for the delay ^_^''

 

[Revven]

Well, link to it when it's done because I'm pretty sure I only have about a few weeks left of ACTUAL free time for something like this.