A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[B!squick]

Lol, Meta Knight players are only patient when they're planking, which is why they win/fail. But saying that it's worse when they know the match up is REALLY redundant because that's true with ANY match up.

 

[Cassius.]

Oh yes. Matchup post time?

Can I? Can I? O:

Lol, I'll do it when I get back from class. I just woke up and I can barely think anyway.

Eh, **** it. I'll just do it now. There are a lot of things I agree with because Vex told me and expressed his opinions, and I actually experienced those...things first hand x] The only massive thing I disagree with is the Samus ratio.

Ganon 65:35
Ivysaur 65:35

Falcon 60:40
Jigglypuff 60:40
Lucas 60:40

Ness 55:45
Ike 55:45
Link 55:45
Mario 55:45 (FTilt?)
Charizard 55:45
Squirtle 50:50, might be in Bowser's favor...I'm looking into Squirtle a bit anyway

Sonic 50:50
Snake 50:50
GnW 50:50 (I haven't faced a G&W yet to give me the feeling of even-ness, although Vex and Gen have told me what to do and what can be done. I used to think it was 45-55 lol)

An idiot MK: 45:55 (Guys guys! Remember when we THOUGHT the Bowser-MK ratio was this?! Lo, and Behold.)
Falco 45:55
Fox 45:55
Donkey Kong 45:55
Samus 45:55
Peach 45:55
Luigi 45:55
ROB 45:55
Yoshi 45:55
Sheik 45:55
Marth 45:55
Wolf 45:55
Zelda 45:55...maybe.

Metaknight (w/o MU EXP)- 45:55 - 40:60, assuming the MK isn't downright stupid
Dedede 40:60
Kirby 40:60
Lucario 40:60
Toon Link 40:60
Pit 40:60
ZSS 40:60
Olimar 40:60

Pikachu 35:65
Wario 35:65
Diddy 35:65

Meta Knight WITH EXP and 0 Idiot points, or just plain good 35:65

Ice Climber's 20:80

I uh, wasn't sure for a few matchups. Like I mean, what to put as the ratio, because the number just wasn't right, but I didn't have my own. Maybe I should just put "?"s but I put in a number that was close to how I felt/thought it was.

I also think Lucas is loads easier than Ness. <_<

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, Ness is a beast. If his recovery was anywhere near as good and Lucas' he'd be above him in the tier, list, easily.

 

[Hobobloke]

Once again is the DDD matchup with or without infinite?

 

[KingKong_ad]

The chart of vex is pretty good but I disagree for some.

DK 50-50
Tl 45-55 maybe 50-50
pit 50-50
squirtle 50-50
pikachu 45-55
wario 45-55
zelda 45-55
diddy 40-60
mk 40-60
samus ?? but I dont feel is 30-70

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Where is all your stuff on the Wolf MU?

 

[Cassius.]

Once again is the DDD matchup with or without infinite?

Well, yes. Where I'm at, the standing infinites and small step chaingrabs Dedede has are banned, which I suppose is a plus to me and others. Even with the grab not banned, I'm pretty sure it isn't THAT difficult. I personally like playing a D3 when the grabs are in play...I know I'm a stupid guy :3 I just love pressure xD

I have a question because I haven't read a ruleset of a national/regional tournament in a while. Do they ban D3's chaingrabs that don't involve a dash (small step, standing, ledge infinites) at regionals and nationals?

Where is all your stuff on the Wolf MU?

._. I'm not particularly sure where it's at, but I'll look right now. I know we did discuss Wolf for a bit though.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211975&page=42

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Thanks. Honestly, I don't think there's a single MU guide on SWF that's complete, organized and effective. But thanks for this.

How many posts do you see a page, because I think I got the wrong spot. What post number does Wolf start on?

 

[Bowser King]

Well, from his link it starts on 616.

Vex, why do you think the samus matchup is so hard? I haven't faced any really good samus' but I would think that even with zair and camping (again, never faced a good samus but I think that was what made the matchup hard) the matchup wouldn't go beyond 65:35 max.

 

[Cassius.]

Um. Not to like...intrude or anything, but shouldn't we kinda try to get some of the matchups finished so we can rediscuss or whatever? We only have like 10 or 12 characters left I think, maybe even less than that.

We should probably make a seperate thread regarding all of our matchup opinions, like what Vex was trying to do (or we could carry that over to Flayl's in depth MU discussion since that's dead anyway).

It seems like everyone is taking after UTDZac's post now lol. Everyone is doing that matchup survey thing.

 

[B!squick]

Match up survey thing?

 

[Cassius.]

I would like to take a moment to do a simple project. Not sure if any other character board has done this yet, but I want to give it a shot. It's pretty simple.

Goal
I want to hear everyone's opinion about G&W's matchups against all of the other characters. Everyone has their own personal experiences and opinions about certain matchups, I just want to hear them. All in one place. No discussion. That's right, don't discuss why you think a matchup is in G&W's favor or not. You can take that to the general matchup discussion or character specific discussion in the export threads.

I would like to try and get accurate numbers for the matchup export threads, as I believe some of them are off. For example, we said Falco was 60:40 G&W... which I think is funny cause Ganondorf/Bowser is also 60:40 G&W. I, personally, have a much harder time against Falco than Ganondorf/Bowser. Somethings not right.

How to participate?

1) Copy and paste the list below:

Meta Knight - 
Snake - 
Wario - 
Falco - 
Diddy Kong - 
King Dedede - 
Marth - 
Pikachu - 
Olimar - 
Ice Climbers - 
R.O.B. - 
Kirby - 
Lucario - 
Zero Suit Samus - 
Toon Link - 
Pit - 
Donkey Kong - 
Peach - 
Luigi - 
Fox - 
Wolf - 
Sonic - 
Sheik - 
Bowser - 
Zelda - 
Pokémon Trainer - 
Ike - 
Lucas - 
Mario - 
Ness - 
Yoshi - 
Samus - 
Jigglypuff - 
Captain Falcon - 
Link - 
Ganondorf -

2) Remove from the list all characters you have never played, or you feel you have inadequate experience against. Again, if you have never actually played a match against a character, do not put him in your list.

3) Rate each character as Advantage, Even, or Disadvantage. An Advantage rating would indicate G&W should be able to win over the other character (i.e. G&W has better moves). A Disadvantage rating would indicate the opposite. An Even rating would indicate the match could go either way. If you cannot decide between Advantage and Even or Disadvantage and Even, then just put Even. Even should include 55:45 matchups. Also, Major Advantage / Major Disadvantage is not an option, please don't use it.

4) Everybody gets one and only one post. You can come back and edit your responses later.


Example List
...
Kirby - Advantage
Lucario - Even
Zero Suit Samus - Even
Toon Link - Disadvantage
...

That's it lol ^

Vex just posted what he thinks the matchup ratios were. Well, the day before he did that, I IM'd him asking if I should do the same thing UTDZac did and basically just quote what he put xD. I never got a reply back or anything, and I was too lazy to do it anyway.

 

[Flayl]

We should probably make a seperate thread regarding all of our matchup opinions, like what Vex was trying to do (or we could carry that over to Flayl's in depth MU discussion since that's dead anyway).

I swear I'll kill you if you do that.

 

[Cassius.]

I swear I'll kill you if you do that.

...What? Pretty violent there, Flayl... lol

 

[Kinzer]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190510&page=150

Sonic boards are rediscussing Bowser.

I personally look really forward to having all of you over. I never did under-estimate Bowser's potential in the right hands; but after Vex' MM with Espy, I have no doubts that Bowser really is a beast.

 

[Flayl]

...What? Pretty violent there, Flayl... lol

It was a joke, but really, I'm tired of people completely missing the point of that thread and how nobody is contributing.

 

[Bowser King]

Alright Jay, Its all yours

 

[B!squick]

Hurr hurr! The power to control Bowser's match ups is mine!

Alright, here's my plan: Let's just get some numbers down for the rest of the cast in the coming weeks and save the indepth discussion for when we redo everyone. Basically give your numbers and thoughts as to why. Numbers without reasons why will not be taken seriously. Even if someone already makes a post stating everything you wanted to say, try to expand on it a little if you can, otherwise, saying "I agree with everything [insert name here] said" is fine, too. Just don't give a different number, because then you'd be a liar! D:<

Thoughts?

Oh, BK, I think you have a Sasuke Bowser in your teeth. O.o

 

[Bowser King]

Hurr hurr! The power to control Bowser's match ups is mine!

Alright, here's my plan: Let's just get some numbers down for the rest of the cast in the coming weeks and save the indepth discussion for when we redo everyone. Basically give your numbers and thoughts as to why. Numbers without reasons why will not be taken seriously. Even if someone already makes a post stating everything you wanted to say, try to expand on it a little if you can, otherwise, saying "I agree with everything [insert name here] said" is fine, too. Just don't give a different number, because then you'd be a liar! D:<

Thoughts?

Oh, BK, I think you have a Sasuke Bowser in your teeth. O.o

Seems like the best way to do things. We've already been doing that for the past year so we might as well continue and get everything done and out of the way and go indepth when we go through everything again.

Still, we should go semi indepth and not just...

"I think the matchup between agumon and bowser is 60:40 bowser because we can klawhop his projectiles"

Yes, there is a sasukebowser stuck in my teeth. There surprisingly delicious.

 

[B!squick]

Well, yeah, GOOD reasons for why why you think a match up is this, that, or the other thing.

 

[Bowser King]

Well, yeah, GOOD reasons for why why you think a match up is this, that, or the other thing.

Exactly.

So, we discussing sonic now?

 

[Cassius.]

I thought we discussed Sonic already lol. Whatever. After watching Vex's mm with Espy and lurking the Sonic boards (who think it's within the range of 45:55 Sonic to 55:45 Bowser), I'd have to agree with them, even though the ratio range is a bit ambiguous.

I'm just going to massively quote one person from the Sonic boards who posted his feelings on the Bowser MU a while ago.

Sorry to bring Bowser up again but I've had some matches against my friend's Bowser now and I feel much more informed now. I personally think this match up is 55-45 Bowser. I could even go as far to say 60-40 Bowser. Sonic does not have an advantage here

I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a pain Bowsers specials are. OoS Fortress is ridiculously good. It can answer a lot of things Sonic can do because of it's invinciblity frames. Grabs, jabs, spindashes, aerials...it's seriously irritating. Sonic's range pales in comparison to Bowser's. Spaced Bairs were the only thing that I wouldn't get OoS Fortressed for and spaced Bairs are crap in this match up anyway. I'm not saying Fortress is impossible to get around but if you don't sheild poke Bowser and you don't space really really well, you're going to be eating OoS Fortress
What's interesting is that a lot of Sonic's move will clank with the Fortress. I found a lot of Sonic's ground attacks (mainly jab and F Tilt) clank with Bowser's fortress when I wasn't right next to Bowser. When I was right next to him after whiffing an attack against his shield, it would get me everytime

Fire, his neutral B...it's actually a pain. Earlier I said spaced Bairs are crap in this match and this is why. Fire will stop nearly all of Sonic's direct approaches. The exception is a perfect arced grounded spin jump (not a vertical spin jump) or an aerial spinshot which allows you to jump right over Bowser and Bair him. Unfortunetly...this kind of projected so Bowser can stop using his fire to ready himself (his only option really though is shield and an OoS Fortress won't reach Sonic...I think)

Side B (Koopa Klaw) - I hate this move when I'm using Peach. I hate it even more when I'm using Sonic. It can grab Sonic out of a lot of things and can really screw up your edgeguarding since his Side B can grab you out of of your aerials. It sends you flying as well

Another bad thing is killing Bowser. He doesn't die very easily. If he momentum cancels and DI's properly, he should be living at around 140-150%. Actually landing a kill move on Bowser is also difficult. He outranges you so landing an F Smash is hard...D Smash is crap. Bairs...urgh, only if Bowser runs into them. Spaced Bairs don't work like I said so...yea

Perhaps I'm doing something wrong but...when recovering with Sonic against Bowser...it's like flinging yourself against a wall with only a few holes available for to go through to get to the other side. Spin shot is tragically bad - I got punished nearly every single time I tried to use it both for recovering and on stage simply because Bowser is far too big and his attacks are pretty huge too. Sonic is incredibly limited to what he can when recovering. All Bowser has to do is wait and punish Sonic as he's landing. Grabbing onto the ledge means you risk getting grabbed ---> air trip and because Bowser outranges Sonic...getting back up from the ledge is difficult. Recovering from down below sucks because Sonic doesn't auto snap onto the edge, giving Bowser a free smash (normally F Smash or D Smash, which is surprisingly hard to DI out of)

I haven't even started on his other attacks...his Tilts have huge range and hit hard. Jab might be slower than yours but it vastly outranges Sonic's attacks. F Smash is a horrible move that is ridiculously strong. Bowsers aerials are not to be underestimated as they outrange yours


Having said all that though, we are forgetting one imporant advantage we have in this match up

It's Bowser

Bowser is very big. Whilst this can create a few problems such as a large sheild (the whole of Sonic's Up Smash can be shielded :/) it also makes Bowser a very big target. Fair is a beautiful move in this match, despite me not liking it much. Up Smash is good when it lands and so is Up Tilt. If Bowser doesn't have much of his shield left, spindashes can go through below his shield and hit him (although Fortress can stop spindashes). Whilst Bowser outranges Sonic, Sonic is faster than Bowser. Provided I was close enough/had started them up, my aerials would often get this first hit in. Shielding Bowsers more laggy attacks such as F Tilt and the whole of Fortress (irritating to do) allowed me to punish Bowser with various grabs and the like

Gimping Bowser is not as easy as it sounds. You have to play smart. Bowser doesn't have many options since his recovery isn't great. The only thing he can do provided he's a decent height above the stage whilst off stage is Fair and air dodge. Bait a reaction and hit him (Bair is probably your best choice or a Dair if you get lucky and he DI's wrong)


Feel free to disagree but that's my take on things. I think the match up is around 55-45/60-40 in Bowsers favour. I know I've said a lot more things Bowser has over Sonic but Sonic outspeeds Bowser and if Sonic shields Bowsers more laggy attacks, Bowser is open for getting Faired/grabbed/whatever. The smartest player will normally win but I feel that Bowser has a lot more defensive tools to keep Sonic at bay and Sonic can have a hard time getting round them which is why I've put it in Bowsers favour

He didn't really talk about grab releases, but obviously if he gets grabbed, it's going to be a problem.

Also : Air release BAir? is it possible? I'd test it, but I'm going back home today for a few days. If no one has an answer before I arrive home I'll just do it myself <.<

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Also : Air release BAir? is it possible? I'd test it, but I'm going back home today for a few days. If no one has an answer before I arrive home I'll just do it myself <.<

I thought of this a long time ago and tested on a few characters, not all mind you, but it seems you don't get enough running distance to do a RAR bair, because you need a certain amount of distance ran before you can do RAR into any aerial. MAY work on Sonic, I will test later today, highly doubt it however.

 

[Cassius.]

I thought of this a long time ago and tested on a few characters, not all mind you, but it seems you don't get enough running distance to do a RAR bair, because you need a certain amount of distance ran before you can do RAR into any aerial. MAY work on Sonic, I will test later today, highly doubt it however.

Alrighty then! o:

Umm also I hope I have wifi...I'm going to be extremely bored. It's like Parent's weekend, so I get days off until Tuesday, which isn't a really long time. There aren't any tournaments in NY at this time...but I do want to go to PolyBrawl in Thanksgiving.

Anyway, before I kill myself with offtopicness, it'd be pretty cool if the AR BAir did work. Sonic has the longest and farthest Air Release distance right?

 

[B!squick]

I think 50:50 to 40:60 Bowser is about right. Sonic doesn't have any safe approaches that I know of, but he has a TON of options, so it's just a matter of how good you are at making reads and how good they are at being unpredictable. But I think it's advantage Bowser in the end.

Okay, I'm leaning towards 45:55 our advantage. Anyone else want to weigh in?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*pokes head in*

I've used Bowser against Espy once. Of the three characters I used against him that day, my Bowser lasted the longest. My Ike got 3-stocked (a 50-50 match-up) but admittedly my Ike was terrible all that day. My Falcon got one stock off (45-55 match-up against Sonic), while my Bowser got about a stock and three quarters IIRC. OoS Fortress really hurts Sonic from what I find, as long as you position yourself properly during the end so you won't get punished for it at low %s. 55-45 Bowser's A seems right to me.

 

[B!squick]

Okay, 55:45 sound pretty good ya'll? I'll move on to the next character tomorrow if no one has anything else to add.

 

[Hobobloke]

I'd say 40:60 but it's no point making a fuss over a difference of 5.

 

[B!squick]

Numbers for Sonic added (as well as an awesome picture) after many years of discussion.

Randomly decided to touch back on Olimar, the pint-sized Pikmin plucker. I see this as being somewhere in the neighborhood of 60:40 either way. Bowser will have to Klaw hop alot to try and dodge Pikmin and grabs and Olimar seems more than capable of defending himself from an aerial assault. Though he's light with a lack luster recovery that's only helped somewhat by DownB super armor, so a NAir or a couple FAirs should be enough for the kill off stage.

 

[Nitros14]

(as well as an awesome picture)

WHY does that picture exist

Also I would do better against Olimar if I could tell what moves he was using at any given time since they all look exactly the same.

P.S. Speaking of Olimar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pP1tGcuWbU

 

[B!squick]

That picture exists because it's awesome. XD

 

[Hobobloke]

I can attest that it is indeed awesome.

 

[Nitros14]

That picture exists because it's awesome. XD

I can attest that it is indeed awesome.

 

[B!squick]

Okay, thanks to Google I found this gem for our Olimar picture.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I'll give some advice taken from the D3 boards:

Don't sheild Pikmin. The only one that can actually stop you is a purple. If they don't have one, go all gung ho on them. If they do, hesitate a bit and try to powershield it.


Olimar gets lolraped by grab release so make them afraid.

etc etc


also: klaw hop

 

[B!squick]

In terms of numbers then?

 

[Liquid Gen]

I'm not particularly a fan of numbers, but... I'd say 60/40 Olimar.

Seems accurate enough.

 

[B!squick]

And Bowser is the 60?

 

[Red Arremer]

Considering he said 60-40 Olimar, I suppose he means it's in Olimar's favour.

(also, I hate those numbers, they're totally subjective and noone knows what they mean anyway <.<)

 

[B!squick]

Of course they're subjective and I know EXACTLY what they mean. In a hypothetical situation, he thinks Olimar would win 60% of the time. Simple.