Legend of Zelda A Debate to the Past

[Spire]

~ FORWARD ~
The Zelda fan naturally wonders about certain aspects within the games and how they tie one another together. There are many discrepancies and relativities within the series that spark much discussion over how and why such aspects are related, all of which stem from the desire to bring a sense of order to the unsorted franchise. Here, we shall debate over different topics 'til a conclusion is drawn or quartered. Welcome to A Debate to the Past.​

[collapse="Debate Session 2: The Twili"]Our second debate shall be...

Who are the Twili?

Verdict: Unresolved.
Debated from pages [URL="http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263873&page=9"]9 - 16[/URL]​

Resources:
Zelda Wiki: Twili
Zelda Wiki: Midna
Zelda Wiki: Zant
Zelda Wiki: Dark Interlopers
Zelda Wiki: Fused Shadow
Zelda Wiki: Interloper War
Zelda Wiki: Sheikah
Zelda Wiki: Sheikah Eye Symbol
Zelda Wiki: Sheikah Legends
Zelda Wiki: Sheikah Artifacts
Zelda Wiki: Sheikah Theories
Zelda Wiki: Gerudo
Zelda Wiki: Gerudo Symbol
Zelda Wiki: Zuna
Zelda Wiki: Majora's Mask
Zelda Wiki: Stone Tower Temple

Common speculation:
• The Twili were originally Sheikah
• The Twili were originally Gerudo
• The Twili were originally Zuna
• The Twili descend from none of the above races[/collapse]

[collapse="Debate Session 1: The Forest Temple"]Our first debate shall be...

What is the Forest Temple in Twilight Princess?

Verdict: The remains of both the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Tree Sprout
Debated from pages 1 - 8​

Resources:
Zelda Wiki: Forest Temple
Zelda Wiki: Great Deku Tree
Zelda Wiki: Lost Woods
Zelda Wiki: Sacred Forest Meadow
Zelda Wiki: Faron Woods
Zelda Wiki: Sacred Grove
Zelda Wiki: Forbidden Woods

Common speculation:
• The Forest Temple in TP is the remains of the Great Deku Tree from Ocarina of Time
• The Forest Temple in TP is the remains of the Deku Tree Sprout from Ocarina of Time
• The Forest Temple in TP is the same Forest Temple from Ocarina of Time
• An entirely different place[/collapse]
Get to it folks!

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Ok you are doing a good job of persuading me to belive that its the deku tree, but then where is the hole in the fist room surly it would still be there? So this realy does make me belive that this is the sprout. But also having a hard time ripping away from what this guy told me. About if you back track to someware in faron woods you find the remains.

 

[Spire]

I actually wonder now if the Forest Temple is actually both the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Sprout's remains, since the large chasm separates them. The first half of the Temple (which would be the Sprout), is not layed out like the inside of the Great Deku Tree in OoT, but the second half is very much. It is based around a cylindrical pit (resembling a hollowed out tree trunk) and is layed out similarly to the dungeon from OoT.

This could set up the backstory that the Deku Tree sprout grew to its full size, then died somehow and the remains of both trees became the new Forest Temple. The Kokiri would have naturally lived within Faron Woods (specifically the area that ends up cloaked in purple fog) as it leads directly to the Deku Tree. Even more suggestive is the Sacred Grove (Lost Woods) and its location being just "over the cliffside" from the Kokiri Forest/Faron Woods.

Though this could be countered with Ordon Village highly resembling Kokiri Forest (the houses are carved from trees).

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

I actually wonder now if the Forest Temple is actually both the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Sprout's remains, since the large chasm separates them. The first half of the Temple (which would be the Sprout), is not layed out like the inside of the Great Deku Tree in OoT, but the second half is very much. It is based around a cylindrical pit (resembling a hollowed out tree trunk) and is layed out similarly to the dungeon from OoT.

This could set up the backstory that the Deku Tree sprout grew to its full size, then died somehow and the remains of both trees became the new Forest Temple. The Kokiri would have naturally lived within Faron Woods (specifically the area that ends up cloaked in purple fog) as it leads directly to the Deku Tree. Even more suggestive is the Sacred Grove (Lost Woods) and its location being just "over the cliffside" from the Kokiri Forest/Faron Woods.

Though this could be countered with Ordon Village highly resembling Kokiri Forest (the houses are carved from trees).

Wich points more in the direction that the sprout was cut down i already said this on another thread so i am gonna stop with that there.

But ya that is almost deffinatly the deku tree and sprout. It would make perfect scence now that I think about it because when the kokiri had to leave there forest home for what ever reason (probably zants doing once again). They fled the forest in panic and either turned into monkeys to live in the deku sprout and deku tree. Others left the forest and went into the lost woods and became skull kids. It is also possible that the grown up skull kids you see when the kid calles them (near sacred grove TP) could be the grown up version of the old kokiri who left the forest. The mini boss in TP, that big monkey could have been the one to take charge of the kokiri who fled to there old guardians (2 trees).

 

[Spire]

You've got to stop blaming Zant. He came in during Twilight Princess. For the 100+ years between OoT and TP, there was peace. And uh, those "grown up skull kids" are Skull Kid's puppets.

 

[finalark]

I'd have to say that the thoery of the TP forest temple being both the Deku tree and it's sprout are the most plausible to me. Either that or it's the remains of the Deku Tree Sprout.

 

[Lore]

I'd have to say that the thoery of the TP forest temple being both the Deku tree and it's sprout are the most plausible to me. Either that or it's the remains of the Deku Tree Sprout.

Same here. However, wasn't the forest temple entrance near the top half of the tree? The tree could have been alive, but its face/what it used to talk may have been at the ground, where you can't reach it.

I have a question, though. Did the sprout grow in both timelines? I can't remember if the sprout mentioned taking 7 years to grow. Besides, wouldn't the original tree have to be alive if it created a seed?

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

You've got to stop blaming Zant. He came in during Twilight Princess. For the 100+ years between OoT and TP, there was peace. And uh, those "grown up skull kids" are Skull Kid's puppets.

I havent played TP in aq while and its been a long day so srry for the mistake if it means so much 2 u.

But then who would have been the cause of the kokiri scare then?

 

[Phantom7]

Same here. However, wasn't the forest temple entrance near the top half of the tree? The tree could have been alive, but its face/what it used to talk may have been at the ground, where you can't reach it.

I have a question, though. Did the sprout grow in both timelines? I can't remember if the sprout mentioned taking 7 years to grow. Besides, wouldn't the original tree have to be alive if it created a seed?

Probably. Though the games never mention it growing in the Child Timeline, the Great Deku Tree died before the timeline split, so he probably grew during both timelines.

I think it's the Deku Sprout, which grew over the Great Deku Tree's corroded remains after his death over centuries. But there is no evidence to determine if it is dead or alive.

Another point (AngryMoblin gave me this idea) is that the Great Deku Tree and the TP Forest Temple do not possess similar interior. Nor exterior, for that matter.

 

[Wuss]

Hm, this is interesting. Is it possible that the kokiri built the temple after the deku tree, and used it as an altar to him? Maybe he was long dead (sprout too) and so it was built in their ruins. I could be completely off.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Probably. Though the games never mention it growing in the Child Timeline, the Great Deku Tree died before the timeline split, so he probably grew during both timelines.

I think it's the Deku Sprout, which grew over the Great Deku Tree's corroded remains after his death over centuries. But there is no evidence to determine if it is dead or alive.

Another point (AngryMoblin gave me this idea) is that the Great Deku Tree and the TP Forest Temple do not possess similar interior. Nor exterior, for that matter.

Exept for the enterance to the temple. Its colors are nearly identicale to wich of the sprouts color.

Also am i the only one who noticed that it has been cut down by someone the overgrowing plants on the top of it. That usually happens to trees when thay have been cut down,plus there are no branches at the top, 4 sure it has been cut down. There fore both dekus are dead.

 

[Spire]

Dead Trees can naturally erode over time before and after death, be it the effect of the elements or of parasites.

Remember, TP Hyrule is the current canon Hyrule in its look and layout. OoT is semi-canon as most of it has been retconned.

 

[etecoon]

I think it being both the sprout and the deku tree makes most sense given the chasm inbetween them and their location otherwise.

something I'd be more curious about is how the temple of time moved from the north end of hyrule to the south

[collapse=OoT and TP Hyrule maps]

[/collapse]

there is no amount of retcon that can explain this. some things can be explained via relocation like hyrule town/castle is in a different place, but it goes from being in the northeast corner opposite lake hylia to being directly south of lake hylia

 

[Lore]

-stuff that I don't wish to quote completely, its right above me-

Hmmm... Perhaps the new Wii game involves Hyrule breaking up into many fragments and floating above the ground.

Kinda like this, where _ is the ground, - is one of the Hyrule land fragments (where one can be Hylia, another Castle Town, etc.):

__-_--_-_-_

It could serve to break up the flow of Dungeon -> Field -> Dungeon, which is rumored to be what Nintendo is planning anyway (the flow breaking not the fragments). It could also explain how several areas' locations are changed as well.

 

[Phantom7]

Dead Trees can naturally erode over time before and after death, be it the effect of the elements or of parasites.

Remember, TP Hyrule is the current canon Hyrule in its look and layout. OoT is semi-canon as most of it has been retconned.

Parasites! You're a genius! Ghoma killed the Deku Tree, so maybe Diababa and the other monsters killed the Sprout with the power of the Fused Shadow.

 

[Spire]

^ I think we're really getting somewhere. The Sprout's purpose was to grow to continue protecting the Kokiri, but just as Gohma killed the Great Deku Tree, something like Diababa may have killed the sprout (despite it being located in the pit of the first Deku Tree - the back of the Forest Temple).

 

[Phantom7]

^ I think we're really getting somewhere. The Sprout's purpose was to grow to continue protecting the Kokiri, but just as Gohma killed the Great Deku Tree, something like Diababa may have killed the sprout (despite it being located in the pit of the first Deku Tree - the back of the Forest Temple).

Honestly, I think the Deku Tree being part of the Forest Temple may be a bit of a stretch. However, there is a space in the middle where there is no ceiling, which means that all of the dungeon is not one tree. I think the Fused Shadow killed the Deku Sprout and possibly whatever is behind it, if it's not the ruins of the Deku Tree.

 

[Untrust Us]

I thought Ganondorf killed the Great Deku Tree? Unless, Gohma (a creation of Ganondorf's curse) actually did the killing.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

I think it being both the sprout and the deku tree makes most sense given the chasm inbetween them and their location otherwise.

something I'd be more curious about is how the temple of time moved from the north end of hyrule to the south

[collapse=OoT and TP Hyrule maps]

[/collapse]

there is no amount of retcon that can explain this. some things can be explained via relocation like hyrule town/castle is in a different place, but it goes from being in the northeast corner opposite lake hylia to being directly south of lake hylia

Indeed , This is something i have wondered about aswell. But maybe the ordin villagers brought a piece of hyrule castle with them, hence putting the temple of time someware completely out of the way (lost woods). They probably did this in being paranoid that ganondorf would comeback after (OoT). Maybe the king sent them away for a reason, and that reason is to protect/ hide the temple of time. That is my theory

 

[Spire]

Why can't we retcon the Temple of Time from OoT to TP when the entirety of Hyrule (including the Temple of Time's ruins) were retconned from ALttP to OoT?

We know now in TP that the Master Sword rests in the temple's ruins in the Lost Woods/Sacred Grove, yes? Well that can be tied directly to ALttP. Therefore, every location in TP is a retcon of OoT/ALttP and is now canon. Temple of Time was meant to be located in the Lost Woods.

As for the Forest Temple being both the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Tree Sprout, they are separated by the chasm and if you remember, the sprout grows right in front of the Great Deku Tree in OoT, so there's an obvious separation.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Why can't we retcon the Temple of Time from OoT to TP when the entirety of Hyrule (including the Temple of Time's ruins) were retconned from ALttP to OoT?

We know now in TP that the Master Sword rests in the temple's ruins in the Lost Woods/Sacred Grove, yes? Well that can be tied directly to ALttP. Therefore, every location in TP is a retcon of OoT/ALttP and is now canon. Temple of Time was meant to be located in the Lost Woods.

As for the Forest Temple being both the Great Deku Tree and the Deku Tree Sprout, they are separated by the chasm and if you remember, the sprout grows right in front of the Great Deku Tree in OoT, so there's an obvious separation.

What do you think of my on the spot theory though? Could that be true?

 

[Spire]

What do you think of my on the spot theory though? Could that be true?

It's better to formulate theories from evidence, not simple musing. While it's always loads of fun to say, "hey what if this happened because of this and that and this and yadda yadda yadda," it's just never as accurate as a theory based on both evidence and strong logic.

Besides, Ordon was most likely founded by Link (Hero of Time) and Malon on account of the culture of the land being reflective of both their backgrounds: farm life and forest life, and the fact that Link (TP) is born and raised there and happens to be the descendent of Link, the Hero of Time.

 

[Thatfatcat]

I have a question regarding the skull kids. I remember in OoT some kakori (correct me if I'm wrong) mentioning that when the kakori get lost in the woods, they become skull kids? Would this relate to the sacred grove at all?

 

[Spire]

I have a question regarding the skull kids. I remember in OoT some kakori (correct me if I'm wrong) mentioning that when the kakori get lost in the woods, they become skull kids? Would this relate to the sacred grove at all?

If I recall correctly, you are told this early on in the game, before you even leave the Kokiri Forest. That being said, the only 'children' you're aware of are the Kokiri themselves, so it could heavily be implying that Kokiri who get lost in the Lost Woods become Skull Kids.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Or the temple of time could simply have been rebuilt, or (and this actually seems rather practical considering the nature of the temple) it's actually to a degree temporally transcendent and the actual building only anchors it to it's current location, wherever that is. Any destruction would only remove the anchor, and only the anchor had to be rebuilt. Considering how you access the temple in TP, it could literally be anywhere or nowhere.



The forest temple on the other hand, the thing is a lot can move in 100 years, but since we have what seems to be the sacred grove the old deku tree locations is most probable.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

It's better to formulate theories from evidence, not simple musing. While it's always loads of fun to say, "hey what if this happened because of this and that and this and yadda yadda yadda," it's just never as accurate as a theory based on both evidence and strong logic.

Besides, Ordon was most likely founded by Link (Hero of Time) and Malon on account of the culture of the land being reflective of both their backgrounds: farm life and forest life, and the fact that Link (TP) is born and raised there and happens to be the descendent of Link, the Hero of Time.

well then maybe Link thought it was his duty to protect the temple of time just in case evil came back? Fun theorys!

 

[Phantom7]

It's better to formulate theories from evidence, not simple musing. While it's always loads of fun to say, "hey what if this happened because of this and that and this and yadda yadda yadda," it's just never as accurate as a theory based on both evidence and strong logic.

Besides, Ordon was most likely founded by Link (Hero of Time) and Malon on account of the culture of the land being reflective of both their backgrounds: farm life and forest life, and the fact that Link (TP) is born and raised there and happens to be the descendent of Link, the Hero of Time.

Link may have founded it, but I'm not sure if Malon would have been involved. I think you're speculating a bit too much there. Then again, Lon Lon Ranch was no longer present... Interesting theory, but I don't think it's worth counting on. Outset Island appears to be parallel to Ordon Village, so the way they were founded must have been similar.

Just a thought: I wonder if the events that take place in one timeline affect the other? And do the events of Termina and Hyrule do the same?

well then maybe Link thought it was his duty to protect the temple of time just in case evil came back? Fun theorys!

I think the Sages probably destroyed it and rebuilt it in the Sacred Forest Meadow so that evil could not invade it again, like in OoT.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Link may have founded it, but I'm not sure if Malon would have been involved. I think you're speculating a bit too much there. Then again, Lon Lon Ranch was no longer present... Interesting theory, but I don't think it's worth counting on. Outset Island appears to be parallel to Ordon Village, so the way they were founded must have been similar.

Just a thought: I wonder if the events that take place in one timeline affect the other? And do the events of Termina and Hyrule do the same?



I think the Sages probably destroyed it and rebuilt it in the Sacred Forest Meadow so that evil could not invade it again, like in OoT.

Ya thats what I said appart from the sage theory i thought it would of been the ordon villagers on mission from the king, or link on a mission from either the gods, king or himself.

Lol I just cant picture all the sages destroying the temple, when I read that i immediantly pictured them all with slege hammers knoking the **** out of it

 

[Phantom7]

Ya thats what I said appart from the sage theory i thought it would of been the ordon villagers on mission from the king, or link on a mission from either the gods, king or himself.

Lol I just cant picture all the sages destroying the temple, when I read that i immediantly pictured them all with slege hammers knoking the **** out of it

We're talking Zelda here; they probably used some kind of magic to cause it to explode into millions of tiny pieces that mysteriously vanished as they hit the ground.

 

[Spire]

I'll just say time and again:

Retcon retcon retcon...

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

I could defietly belive that. So I guess this wraps up this topic....right?

 

[Spire]

I could defietly belive that. So I guess this wraps up this topic....right?

No, that settles the Temple of Time. We're aiming to agree on the Forest Temple.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'll just say time and again:

Retcon retcon retcon...

Again for the temple of time, considering the method of access in the sacred grove, it doesn't need to really exist in any one physical place. The locations were just where it was anchored to at the time.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

No, that settles the Temple of Time. We're aiming to agree on the Forest Temple.

then who doesnt agree that the forest temple is the dekus?

 

[Creo]

then who doesnt agree that the forest temple is the dekus?

The point isn't to get everyone to agree, the point is having the agreements with solid reasoning. And, that's something we don't have yet. It's logical, but perhaps more options if possible?
It's safe to eliminate the old forest temple (OoT) because that seems to fit more in the Sacred grove. Then again, contradiction is played here as I can say that, though the forest temple was in the Sacred grove, the Temple of time in-fact was not. Those broken staircases in TP are similar to the Forest temple in OoT, but could also be the staircase before the temple of time.

 

[Spire]

Hmm, it's interesting to note that the Forest Temple in OoT also featured an elevator system in its central, round room, just as the Temple of Time did in TP. They're both located in most likely the same location, at the end of the Lost Woods/Sacred Forest Meadow/Sacred Grove area. Hmm...

Could it be that the Forest Temple in OoT was actually an old Temple of Time and that the temple we visit in TP is actually the Temple of Time from looooong in the past, before a more convenient one was rebuilt in Hyrule Castle Town?

It's an interesting theory, but I think not. Firstly, we know that Hyrule Castle Town from OoT is the same as in TP, because in the Child Timeline, it was never destroyed. In the Adult Timeline, it was destroyed and rebuilt on Lake Hylia (as seen when you go to Hyrule in WW). So why then in TP is the Temple of Time completely absent from Hyrule Castle Town? If we rule out retcon, then it must have somehow been moved, perhaps as said before - to keep safe from Ganondorf.

EDIT: And just so you guys know, it's pretty much been proven by Team Beta Triforce (the biggest OoT hacking team) that the Forest Temple in OoT was initially going to be the inside of Hyrule Castle. This makes sense given that:
a) it resembles the inside of a castle
b) its courtyards aren't out of place at all, especially given that there was one in the final development of the game that led to Zelda
c) Miyamoto has confirmed that it was originally going to be the Wind Temple, but they scrapped that entirely.

With a little texture editing here and there, you've got vines growing on the walls and hence, something that could pass for a Forest Temple. They did a good job of making it feel like a darker, more complex version of the "Lost Woods concept". Those were literal woods that you could get lost in, and the Forest Temple properly reflected that nature, but exponentially.

 

[Phantom7]

Hmm... I agree that the Temple of Time was somehow transported to the inaccessible location of the Sacred Grove for protection against evildoers, to prevent a repeat of the events in OoT...

...Which brings me to this question: Why was the Triforce split in the Child timeline? In TP, the Sages refer to Ganondorf's possession of the Triforce of Power as a "divine prank". Evidently, the Triforce somehow separated in the Child timeline. Could Ganon have accessed the Sacred Realm while Link was in Termina?

 

[Creo]

Hmm... I agree that the Temple of Time was somehow transported to the inaccessible location of the Sacred Grove for protection against evildoers, to prevent a repeat of the events in OoT...

...Which brings me to this question: Why was the Triforce split in the Child timeline? In TP, the Sages refer to Ganondorf's possession of the Triforce of Power as a "divine prank". Evidently, the Triforce somehow separated in the Child timeline. Could Ganon have accessed the Sacred Realm while Link was in Termina?

Well, I'm not positive, nor will anyone be for sure...
With Link in Termina, that would mean it is following up to TP(I think), and then in that time span would be the great flood, correct? If so, we have little to no info on that. Plausible, but we need a game in between I think.
**If I'm wrong, sorry. I can't reference to the Time line(s) on the wii**
*edit*
Wrong side of the time line, but what I say still somwhat stands.

 

[Phantom7]

Well, I'm not positive, nor will anyone be on that.
With Link in Termina, that would mean it is following up to TP(I think), and then in that time span would be the great flood, correct? If so, we have little to no info on that.
**If I'm wrong, sorry. I can't reference to the Time line(s) on the wii**

It would be leading into TP, but the great flood occurs on the adult timeline (the other "side" of the timeline) before WW.

EDIT: On a further note, could Ganondorf's banishment, as shown in TP, have been a result of attempting to conquer the Sacred Realm? And theoretically, could the Hero of Time have returned and defeated him before that happened? This is even more of a stretch, but could this possibly be what Zelda Wii is about?

I'm sorry, I'm drifting more and more off topic with my curiosity of unexplained events in TP and what Zelda Wii will add to the timeline.

 

[Spire]

WHOA GUYS. I think I just figured out something huge. HUGE.

Okay, so ALttP's backstory provides details about the Seal War and how Ganon raided Hyrule, entered the Sacred Realm, and used the Triforce's power to corrupt the realm into the Dark World, but was thus sealed within it by the Sages and the Knights (of whom most died). The legend specifically states that there was no hero to draw the Master Sword to kill Ganon, which is why they had to seal him away. Since this story is 19 years old now, we may be able to assume that TP (following such a similar story altogether) has retconned the Dark World to be the Twilight Realm. Given that Link had left for Termina, it would make sense that Ganon raided the Sacred Realm then and was thus sealed within the Twilight Realm/Dark World.