Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ordeaux26]

He means recoveries.

My thoughts on said post:

While I agree rage was implemented poorly, I'm not sure I'd call rage a good, healthy mechanic. I certainly think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game and I would love to see it return in a less problematic form, but neither "good" nor "healthy" are words I'd use to describe it.

Can't speak to Brawl because I'm largely unfamiliar with competitive Brawl (I do know MK was broken at ledge, but I don't think anyone else was), but in Melee, ledge options (ledge option, really) are much better than they are in Sm4sh, so I'm not sure I'd consider good ledge options a culprit here. Good recoveries definitely are, though, for the same reasons they were in Brawl.

Special mention to this bit for being blatantly incorrect. No more than 10 jab 1s are actually comparable in speed to your average airdodge.

I don't think there's a single character with no way to frametrap airdodges close to the ground.

That aside, I don't disagree with his actual point here. Rolls and airdodges are very good and it makes the game very defensive.

I think he's exaggerating here. While the changes to DI and SDI mean that it's harder to DI out of combos, this has been replaced, to some extent, by the ability to cancel hitstun into certain actions before it's over, which limits the amount of combos that are actually true, and while DI is a lot easier now, teching is a lot harder, and missed techs can hurt a lot more. Most defensive mechanics that were nerfed have been replaced by something else in this way.

Whether you actually like these changes is a different matter entirely. I far prefer the old system for DI, especially because Sm4sh's floatier physics make extending combos harder independent of hitstun cancelling. I do prefer the less effective SDI, though; in Melee and Brawl, multihits kinda just don't work, and SDI is a big part of it. However, there is not "a great deal" less variety on offense or defense; frankly, I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion right after saying airdodges and ledge options are extremely strong.
They do

can we all just enjoy the game smash 4 is not perfect and neither is melee or any smash game or any game but as long as its enjoyable that should be what matters if you don't like the game then stop playing it

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Besides online play, the 3DS version of the game has fallen into obscurity. The Umebura tournament series was among the only national level tournaments ever held for 3DS until it was obscured once again.

Actually they still take place, there is a JPN youtube channel called "Tamisuma" that does them regularly, they even do Character Crew Battles.

-

Funny enough, I recall making a thread at the beginning of this games meta that was essentially a rant on how much I disliked the gameplay, both playing it and watching it and I recall being told that part of the issue was just the game being new and players not being used to it so they opted for defensive play and safe options. 4(?) years later and the game is still like this. DLC really didn't help.

I'd say that this is on the fault of the players for not choosing to play the game different than the majority; there are players who play their own way but they are not covered frequently unless they make far in bracket, cause an upset, or are considered a top player.

-

For the talk on players opinions, regardless if they are a top player, I do not think it is wise to discard an opinion because it sounds absurd, At least keep a note of it and add on to it or keep a mental tally of other players that share similar mindsets.

Edit: I think one of the reasons players flock to top player opinions is because they lack the time to do the research themselves or they put too much stock in the word's of a top player based on the assumptions of top players in general; stuff like: "they win a lot of tournaments or place very high in tournaments, so they must know what they are talking about". They may also have a goal of reaching the top or being the best in their area, so they are trying to find the shortest and easiest path to success.

Edit 2: Or they do not want to make a fool of themselves in front of their peers or other Smash players, but some end up doing so in the process of trying to jump to the finish line.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

lmao

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum




This thread's post quality truly plummeted in the last year, but let's not go as far as comparing things to Hitler. Come on, at least cut the logical absurdities.

Oh, shut up, man.

 

[J0eyboi]

Also, Captain L thinks Puff is mid tier? Meanwhile, last I saw, Esam thinks Pikachu only loses to Mario and Ness. Pretty crazy thoughts from Pikachu players. Oh and ZeRo thought Diddy was nowhere near as good as what most other people thought, having him down at like 5th or 8th on his tier lists. Plus, unless things have changed recently, a common issue I saw with top Fox players was their refusal to make use of the blaster and force approaches which likely affected any top Fox players mu charts.

Worth noting that I can't find any actual source for L thinking Puff's mid-tier, I'm basing it off

I went to the tournament and Captain L believes Jigglypuff is a mid tier (I'm not joking)

So take that with a grain of salt. I mostly brought it up because it was helpful to the point I was trying to prove; probably should've used Nicko or smth instead.

 

[Krysco]

Actually they still take place, there is a JPN youtube channel called "Tamisuma" that does them regularly, they even do Character Crew Battles.

-



I'd say that this is on the fault of the players for not choosing to play the game different than the majority; there are players who play their own way but they are not covered frequently unless they make far in bracket, cause an upset, or are considered a top player.

-

For the talk on players opinions, regardless if they are a top player, I do not think it is wise to discard an opinion because it sounds absurd, At least keep a note of it and add on to it or keep a mental tally of other players that share similar mindsets.

Edit: I think one of the reasons players flock to top player opinions is because they lack the time to do the research themselves or they put too much stock in the word's of a top player based on the assumptions of top players in general; stuff like: "they win a lot of tournaments or place very high in tournaments, so they must know what they are talking about". They may also have a goal of reaching the top or being the best in their area, so they are trying to find the shortest and easiest path to success.

Edit 2: Or they do not want to make a fool of themselves in front of their peers or other Smash players, but some end up doing so in the process of trying to jump to the finish line.

From a spectator's point of view, top players are one of two types of people you'll often see when watching a tournament, the other being commentators. Not everyone checks Youtube or forums like Smashboards or Reddit to look for people who lab or discuss. But seeing names like Nairo, Dabuz, MKLeo and such constantly at tournaments and with their matches being streamed a lot, people are bound to be curious about what they have to say about the game, namely the characters they use. They're good at the game so surely they have a better understanding of their characters tools than most others.

There is a difference however between being good at the game and having a deep understanding of a character. You have to understand your character and most of the other top tier characters to a certain degree if you want to get far but you don't have to understand every little thing, having good reactions and predictions and catching the habits of other players and get you far. You often see cases where people say that a player like DKWill is a better DK but Tweek is a better player despite also using DK from time to time for example. One has a better understanding of their character while the other is better at the game (slightly poor example though since Tweek also has Cloud and Bayo and therefore doesn't have to deal with DK's poor mus if he doesn't want to).

People who attend tournaments will also be interested in what top players have to say. An aspiring Marth or Rosalina or ZSS player will be interested in what MKLeo, Dabuz or Nairo have to say so they can potentially learn what to do and what not to do to get better results with their character of choice. Or even just to find out a potential counterpick or strategy to fight against their character, even if they don't lab as much as others. Getting your name out there means a lot.

That's my take on it anyways. A good example from this very thread about not discarding an absurd opinion is Radical Larry's posts about Link. The character managed to do as well as 3rd at Civil War and to my understanding, T has pulled in rather consistent results with the character. Granted, I'm pretty sure many of Larry's posts were before every patch that affected Link came out but it still shows that he saw potential in the character and later on that potential was shown by a noteworthy player. Bit of a disconnect though when a top player talks up a character a bunch and then can't show it off. It's how ESAMopinions became a thing.

 

[Ordeaux26]

So take that with a grain of salt. I mostly brought it up because it was helpful to the point I was trying to prove; probably should've used Nicko or smth instead.

I live in bc and met Captain l and he did say that and he seemed pretty convinced if you don't believe me check out this brackets you will find my username there

https://smash.gg/tournament/dairantou-4-bc-smash-monthly/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/235623
https://smash.gg/tournament/vancouv...c/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/190282/574206

i also believe he said it on twitter

edit: I found it
https://twitter.com/captainlpika/status/995007472745172995

 

[The_Bookworm]

From a spectator's point of view, top players are one of two types of people you'll often see when watching a tournament, the other being commentators. Not everyone checks Youtube or forums like Smashboards or Reddit to look for people who lab or discuss. But seeing names like Nairo, Dabuz, MKLeo and such constantly at tournaments and with their matches being streamed a lot, people are bound to be curious about what they have to say about the game, namely the characters they use. They're good at the game so surely they have a better understanding of their characters tools than most others.

There is a difference however between being good at the game and having a deep understanding of a character. You have to understand your character and most of the other top tier characters to a certain degree if you want to get far but you don't have to understand every little thing, having good reactions and predictions and catching the habits of other players and get you far. You often see cases where people say that a player like DKWill is a better DK but Tweek is a better player despite also using DK from time to time for example. One has a better understanding of their character while the other is better at the game (slightly poor example though since Tweek also has Cloud and Bayo and therefore doesn't have to deal with DK's poor mus if he doesn't want to).

People who attend tournaments will also be interested in what top players have to say. An aspiring Marth or Rosalina or ZSS player will be interested in what MKLeo, Dabuz or Nairo have to say so they can potentially learn what to do and what not to do to get better results with their character of choice. Or even just to find out a potential counterpick or strategy to fight against their character, even if they don't lab as much as others. Getting your name out there means a lot.

That's my take on it anyways. A good example from this very thread about not discarding an absurd opinion is Radical Larry's posts about Link. The character managed to do as well as 3rd at Civil War and to my understanding, T has pulled in rather consistent results with the character. Granted, I'm pretty sure many of Larry's posts were before every patch that affected Link came out but it still shows that he saw potential in the character and later on that potential was shown by a noteworthy player. Bit of a disconnect though when a top player talks up a character a bunch and then can't show it off. It's how ESAMopinions became a thing.

Yeah. This has become a controversial thing in the smash community, whether to follow top player opinions or not.

Like what Galaxy said, it is important to note them if you have something to look out for in the future. However, when the character does do a high placing in tournaments, players often consider the character's potential true instantly, and not wait to see if he gets the results consistently or not. In the end, time is the factor, whether if the top player's words are true, half-true, or false.

On the player topic, oftentimes, who do end up getting a top player performing better with a character than the character's dedicated players. Another example, is Nairo's Bowser: able to secure wins and results far greater than any other Bowser main, despite only using him as a secondary (and is currently seen very rare use).

Off topic, but nice profile pic there.

I live in bc and met Captain l and he did say that and he seemed pretty convinced if you don't believe me check out this brackets you will find my username there

https://smash.gg/tournament/dairantou-4-bc-smash-monthly/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/235623
https://smash.gg/tournament/vancouv...c/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/190282/574206

i also believe he said it on twitter

What is up with the Pika mains and their optimistic views of whatever they play? ESAM is optimistic on Pikachu and Samus, and Captain L is optimistic on Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

From a spectator's point of view, top players are one of two types of people you'll often see when watching a tournament, the other being commentators. Not everyone checks Youtube or forums like Smashboards or Reddit to look for people who lab or discuss. But seeing names like Nairo, Dabuz, MKLeo and such constantly at tournaments and with their matches being streamed a lot, people are bound to be curious about what they have to say about the game, namely the characters they use. They're good at the game so surely they have a better understanding of their characters tools than most others.

There is a difference however between being good at the game and having a deep understanding of a character. You have to understand your character and most of the other top tier characters to a certain degree if you want to get far but you don't have to understand every little thing, having good reactions and predictions and catching the habits of other players and get you far. You often see cases where people say that a player like DKWill is a better DK but Tweek is a better player despite also using DK from time to time for example. One has a better understanding of their character while the other is better at the game (slightly poor example though since Tweek also has Cloud and Bayo and therefore doesn't have to deal with DK's poor mus if he doesn't want to).

People who attend tournaments will also be interested in what top players have to say. An aspiring Marth or Rosalina or ZSS player will be interested in what MKLeo, Dabuz or Nairo have to say so they can potentially learn what to do and what not to do to get better results with their character of choice. Or even just to find out a potential counterpick or strategy to fight against their character, even if they don't lab as much as others. Getting your name out there means a lot.

That's my take on it anyways. A good example from this very thread about not discarding an absurd opinion is Radical Larry's posts about Link. The character managed to do as well as 3rd at Civil War and to my understanding, T has pulled in rather consistent results with the character. Granted, I'm pretty sure many of Larry's posts were before every patch that affected Link came out but it still shows that he saw potential in the character and later on that potential was shown by a noteworthy player. Bit of a disconnect though when a top player talks up a character a bunch and then can't show it off. It's how ESAMopinions became a thing.

Well said.

 

[Ordeaux26]

What is up with the Pika mains and their optimistic views of whatever they play? ESAM is optimistic on Pikachu and Samus, and Captain L is optimistic on Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

who knows

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What is up with the Pika mains and their optimistic views of whatever they play? ESAM is optimistic on Pikachu and Samus, and Captain L is optimistic on Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

Why not let them be optimistic over what they like and what they’re passionate about?

Plus I thought L was pessimistic about Pikachu. What could change his mind?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Oh, shut up, man. Why not let them be optimistic over what they like and what they’re passionate about?

Plus I thought L was pessimistic about Pikachu. What could change his mind?

First: I wasn't criticizing their optimism over Pikachu. I was just curious.
Second: I wasn't aware that he was pessimistic over Pikachu. I was kinda assuming there. What does he think about Pikachu (tier position, etc.)?

 

[Ordeaux26]

Second: I wasn't aware that he was pessimistic over Pikachu. I was kinda assuming there. What does he think about Pikachu (tier position, etc.)?

he told me he thinks Pikachu is around the same position he is in now

Also new updates to most hype smash 4 set 2018

Combo Breaker 2018 Maister Vs ESAM Winners Quarter-Finals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5fq3hXkJXM&list=PLOKeMBSdKPVmxuikl1q7K7_fX6OGfb4US&index=21&t=20s

Momocom 2018 Mistake Vs Salem Top 32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZWaDbwfnNY&index=21&list=PLOKeMBSdKPVmxuikl1q7K7_fX6OGfb4US

full forum here https://smashboards.com/threads/most-hype-smash-4-sets-2018.454186/

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think the Pikachu example is far-fetched since we are only taking into account 2 pikachu players. There's many more and we should not assume that all Pikachu players follow the examples of the two players who are in the public eye.

-

Krysco

I agree with the idea that spectators (including new players) tend to put top players and commentators on a pedestal. The problem with our scene, is that many of our commentators are not knowledgeable on the game. Our community took the approach of letting new players, people who enjoy the game, or players who get knocked out of bracket early commentate.

That is a nice idea to get them to stay in the venue rather than to leave frustrated or bored, if they are not able to play casuals during the tournaments; but I think we have taken it too far to the point that is has become the norm for our scene. I don't think this is new, but we do have players (from now on when I mention players, you can include spectators in there since that is what I see them as) who look forward to commentary to learn about a game.

Especially for the FGC members who do not have a Smash background. We can still have the silly stuff during commentary but the misinformation being thrown out left and right needs to stop. The players who soaked up the misinformation can leave with the wrong impressions of the game since they are an outsiders looking in. Within the Smash community, it can start arguments over who said what until someone proves their point or they agree to disagree.

I'm finding it hard to put into words, but I believe that if you watch a match of a traditional FGC game and compared it to Smash, you should be able to notice the difference in the commentary depending on which game you pick to watch and the commentators. What I'm trying to say is that I see FGC commentators that are able to properly explain a game and it's mechanics in a short time so that the viewer can understand it while still keeping them engaged and interested; whereas for Smash, some commentators take the whole match to explain something or they choose to throw out a few words every now and then pointing out general stuff that really does not give any new information to the viewer. Their voice may only perk up when a player gets a KO or does something amazing (feels worse is their is hype gives the impression of being faked or forced if they did not sound interested in the match before).

They're good at the game so surely they have a better understanding of their characters tools than most others.

I don't think this is true. I would love to believe that they would know everything and have all the answers but I do not agree with that. That thinking alone, is what I believe helps to spread misinformation. Another thing that I think is different from FGC and Smash players or rather new players jumping into the competitive-scene of anything, is that they should not take everything they hear or see at face-value.

You often see cases where people say that a player like DKWill is a better DK but Tweek is a better player despite also using DK from time to time for example. One has a better understanding of their character while the other is better at the game (slightly poor example though since Tweek also has Cloud and Bayo and therefore doesn't have to deal with DK's poor mus if he doesn't want to).

I typed up a paragraph for this but realized at the end I was saying the same thing that you were, just longer, so I threw in a spoiler tab since I did not want to delete it.

Spoiler

People who attend tournaments will also be interested in what top players have to say. An aspiring Marth or Rosalina or ZSS player will be interested in what MKLeo, Dabuz or Nairo have to say so they can potentially learn what to do and what not to do to get better results with their character of choice. Or even just to find out a potential counterpick or strategy to fight against their character, even if they don't lab as much as others. Getting your name out there means a lot.

I agree with players initially looking for better player than them of said characters to learn. But I think players should only do this to get a grasp of the character and learn the basics. They should not try to be 1-to-1 of said player. You can learn your fundamentals and a few things from a particular player, but then have the option to build on it from a multitude of other players, even the ones that one may think suck or play the game really bad.

Even those players have tactics that can be learned and implemented which can surprise players who would have never thought such an option was possible. Before, I have heard that options such as these can be written off as working only once, but some players are able to condition their opponents in a way that can allow to land such a ridiculous option multiple times.

I agree with learning strategies vs certain characters or in general, but I still hold true to the belief that players should opt to widen their pool of player(s) that they study.

Sort of unrelated, but I think that if one tries to implement the play-style of a top player and their opponent has experience with said player or has seen a few tournaments or VODS where that top player frequents, they may be able to pick out a flaw/opening that they can exploit in their opponent's behavior. That player may think that copying what the top player does, their victory should be all but assured (read as guaranteed) but that is where the problem lies.

Edit: Cleaned up some typing errors and added more stuff to the end of paragraph 4.

 

[Minordeth]

- airdodges would be much less of an issue with a slightly longer startup. A frame 5-6 airdodge would essentially be used like a counter, enforcing attack prediction, rather than rewarding spamming.

- on the other hand, both airdodges and rolls are far stronger at lower levels of play. Top players that continue relying on them rather than superior movement, baits, and whatnot tend to get worked by a top level opponent who pays attention. B

- Defensive play being optimal is the default for pretty much every fighting game. Melee is optimal when it is played defensively.

- Rage is a decent idea, but overly obscured and esoteric. Nintendo’s MO seems to be hiding complex systems for the appearance of accessibility, even though it puts undue burden on players who want to go deeper and understand those systems. See also: IVs and EVs in Pokémon.

- All I want from Smash 5 is a training mode that is on par with a SFV or Arcsys game.

- I’m fine with the ledge mechanics, because the Yomi that has developed over the course of the game’s life is rich.

- fwiw, I think counters are vastly underutilized in this game.

- for that matter, so is exploring jabs and fast attacks as “traditional” counters. Venia is one of the few players who uses Greninja’s jab as a traditional counter.

- I’d also prefer Smash 5 to return to conservation of momentum between ground and air again.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yeah, players rarely use counters (unless it's Bayonetta), and when they use them it's usually in a predictable situation like falling in the air. I agree with what you say about Rage. If we get an ArcSys training mode, that could help players practice their defense more when they get knocked off stage. Would love an in-game hitbox viewer and save states to replay scenarios multiple times and teleport your characters across the screen to speed up training, like the middle of the stage or to either corner of the stage.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Yeah, players rarely use counters (unless it's Bayonetta), and when they use them it's usually in a predictable situation like falling in the air. I agree with what you say about Rage. If we get an ArcSys training mode, that could help players practice their defense more when they get knocked off stage. Would love an in-game hitbox viewer and save states to replay scenarios multiple times and teleport your characters across the screen to speed up training, like the middle of the stage or to either corner of the stage.

https://gamebanana.com/gamefiles/5750

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm aware of that, but it's a mod. I'm talking about it being supported by the dev team itself, not the community.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Recently, Nintendo Versus upload interviews and gameplay for the 8 player who is invited to the invitational. Each players talks about their view on the invitational while talking about their history, their playstyle, and some neat tricks in Smash 4. Here are the list of interviews for the 4 Smash 4 players.

ZeRo's interview:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mr. R's interview:

With some of the best and most stylish play in the world, @Mr_Rsmash will be representing Europe & is one of the region's best #SmashBrosWiiU players. Hopefully we’ll see some of his super stylish combos in action at the #SmashBros Invitational 2018!https://t.co/wz1pIT8ndU pic.twitter.com/Q9d8h6BOSj

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) May 30, 2018

MkLeo'sinterview:

Mexico’s finest, @Mkleosb has some big skills in #SmashBrosWiiU, & many have said he's #1 in the world. Even more impressive are all the wins he’s racked up at the age of 17! Will he take home a #SmashBros Invitational 2018 win as well? Tune in 6/12 & see!https://t.co/wz1pITpYCu pic.twitter.com/nBFkVp6UXn

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) May 30, 2018

Abadango's interview:

Tokyo, Japan’s @Abadango has been a force in #SmashBrosWiiU over the years. After a second place finish to @Mkleosb at Evo Japan 2018, can he take his revenge at the #SmashBros Invitational 2018?https://t.co/wz1pIT8ndU pic.twitter.com/QuOmkXN1RH

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) June 1, 2018

What is your response? What Smash 4 players would you like them to win the invitational? Otherwise, we have 11 days left before E3. Stay tune!

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Recently, Nintendo Versus upload interviews and gameplay for the 8 player who is invited to the invitational. Each players talks about their view on the invitational while talking about their history, their playstyle, and some neat tricks in Smash 4. Here are the list of interviews for the 4 Smash 4 players.

ZeRo's interview:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mr. R's interview:

With some of the best and most stylish play in the world, @Mr_Rsmash will be representing Europe & is one of the region's best #SmashBrosWiiU players. Hopefully we’ll see some of his super stylish combos in action at the #SmashBros Invitational 2018!https://t.co/wz1pIT8ndU pic.twitter.com/Q9d8h6BOSj

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) May 30, 2018

MkLeo'sinterview:

Mexico’s finest, @Mkleosb has some big skills in #SmashBrosWiiU, & many have said he's #1 in the world. Even more impressive are all the wins he’s racked up at the age of 17! Will he take home a #SmashBros Invitational 2018 win as well? Tune in 6/12 & see!https://t.co/wz1pITpYCu pic.twitter.com/nBFkVp6UXn

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) May 30, 2018

Abadango's interview:

Tokyo, Japan’s @Abadango has been a force in #SmashBrosWiiU over the years. After a second place finish to @Mkleosb at Evo Japan 2018, can he take his revenge at the #SmashBros Invitational 2018?https://t.co/wz1pIT8ndU pic.twitter.com/QuOmkXN1RH

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) June 1, 2018

What is your response? What Smash 4 players would you like them to win the invitational? Otherwise, we have 11 days left before E3. Stay tune!

I'd want Leo to win the invitational, he's a very capable player with a reserved playstyle and a quick mind.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ryo DQ'ed from Smash'N'Splash. RIP

Edit: So did Tweek.

Edit 2: Nairo also DQ'ed from the tournament.

 

[Iridium]

Ryo DQ'ed from Smash'N'Splash. RIP

Edit: So did Tweek.

Is this tourney not being streamed, for Smash 4 specifically? If so, I would rather know now.

 

[Lord Dio]

Wait
WHAT
Tweek and Nairo both?
WHOAH

also yeah, if there are streams can someone link them?
nvm, it's on unrivaled's stream
only one stream, yeesh, prolly gonna miss some upsets

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nairo confirmed since last week he wouldn't attend.
Tweek tweeted about it yesterday.

 

[Krysco]

I think the Pikachu example is far-fetched since we are only taking into account 2 pikachu players. There's many more and we should not assume that all Pikachu players follow the examples of the two players who are in the public eye.

-

Krysco

I agree with the idea that spectators (including new players) tend to put top players and commentators on a pedestal. The problem with our scene, is that many of our commentators are not knowledgeable on the game. Our community took the approach of letting new players, people who enjoy the game, or players who get knocked out of bracket early commentate.

That is a nice idea to get them to stay in the venue rather than to leave frustrated or bored, if they are not able to play casuals during the tournaments; but I think we have taken it too far to the point that is has become the norm for our scene. I don't think this is new, but we do have players (from now on when I mention players, you can include spectators in there since that is what I see them as) who look forward to commentary to learn about a game.

Especially for the FGC members who do not have a Smash background. We can still have the silly stuff during commentary but the misinformation being thrown out left and right needs to stop. The players who soaked up the misinformation can leave with the wrong impressions of the game since they are an outsiders looking in. Within the Smash community, it can start arguments over who said what until someone proves their point or they agree to disagree.

I'm finding it hard to put into words, but I believe that if you watch a match of a traditional FGC game and compared it to Smash, you should be able to notice the difference in the commentary depending on which game you pick to watch and the commentators. What I'm trying to say is that I see FGC commentators that are able to properly explain a game and it's mechanics in a short time so that the viewer can understand it while still keeping them engaged and interested; whereas for Smash, some commentators take the whole match to explain something or they choose to throw out a few words every now and then pointing out general stuff that really does not give any new information to the viewer. Their voice may only perk up when a player gets a KO or does something amazing (feels worse is their is hype gives the impression of being faked or forced if they did not sound interested in the match before).



I don't think this is true. I would love to believe that they would know everything and have all the answers but I do not agree with that. That thinking alone, is what I believe helps to spread misinformation. Another thing that I think is different from FGC and Smash players or rather new players jumping into the competitive-scene of anything, is that they should not take everything they hear or see at face-value.



I typed up a paragraph for this but realized at the end I was saying the same thing that you were, just longer, so I threw in a spoiler tab since I did not want to delete it.

Spoiler

I agree with players initially looking for better player than them of said characters to learn. But I think players should only do this to get a grasp of the character and learn the basics. They should not try to be 1-to-1 of said player. You can learn your fundamentals and a few things from a particular player, but then have the option to build on it from a multitude of other players, even the ones that one may think suck or play the game really bad.

Even those players have tactics that can be learned and implemented which can surprise players who would have never thought such an option was possible. Before, I have heard that options such as these can be written off as working only once, but some players are able to condition their opponents in a way that can allow to land such a ridiculous option multiple times.

I agree with learning strategies vs certain characters or in general, but I still hold true to the belief that players should opt to widen their pool of player(s) that they study.

Sort of unrelated, but I think that if one tries to implement the play-style of a top player and their opponent has experience with said player or has seen a few tournaments or VODS where that top player frequents, they may be able to pick out a flaw/opening that they can exploit in their opponent's behavior. That player may think that copying what the top player does, their victory should be all but assured (read as guaranteed) but that is where the problem lies.

Edit: Cleaned up some typing errors and added more stuff to the end of paragraph 4.

Late reply due to work.I fully agree with you in regards to commentators. I personally largely can't stand commentary in Smash matches since it's often filled with misinformation (I notice it especially given my previous use of Robin and bad Shulk commentary is basically a meme) and obnoxious yelling. I don't watch other games competitively save for the odd Smogon match here and there which lacks commentary so I can't comment on other commentators for other games be they fighting games or any other genre.

When I said 'They're good at the game so surely they have a better understanding of their characters tools than most others.' I was saying what I believe the mindset of spectators is, not that I agree with it myself. I do to a point since top players constantly need options since if they use the same ones over and over again, it makes them easier to be read and lose a match. I imagine they try using different moves and movement in different scenarios and therefore get a better understanding of their character and their tools but not every top player labs out their character to find out every little thing possible and plus not every top player makes for a good teacher for aspiring, newer players.

 

[Iridium]

Ally & Mistake take Smash'N'Splash 4 doubles, after double eliminating VoiD & Cosmos ! Interestingly, Ally has won doubles for all four Smash'N'Splash tourneys he has attended. Komorikiri & MkLeo fell short of grand finals, having been double eliminated by VoiD and Cosmos to place third.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Ally & Mistake take Smash'N'Splash 4 doubles, after double eliminating VoiD & Cosmos ! Interestingly, Ally has won doubles for all four Smash'N'Splash tourneys he has attended. Komorikiri & MkLeo fell short of grand finals, having been double eliminated by VoiD and Cosmos to place third.

VoiD playing doubles again is interesting. May be somewhat of a one-time deal due to the event banning Cloud, but good to see nonetheless.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash'N'Splash 4 Doubles:

1st: Ally Mistake
2nd: Cosmos VoiD
3rd: komorikiri MKLeo
4th: Darkshad Light
5th: Captain Zack Salem
5th: tyroy Mr. R
7th: FroZn BestNess
7th: Miloni BooBear
9th: Captain L Elegant
9th: Mekos 8BitMan
9th: Komota Crispy
9th: Fons / Marshall


When I heard Coney say that he believes that Puff is mid tier, I legit was laughing. It didn't help that he was constantly getting freaked out over Rest.
I know that Coney is a bit radical when it comes to tier placements but still... during commentary?

Nevertheless, a good top 8, and I wonder if they will hold this ban on Cloud for other doubles tournaments.




Edit: Upset list for Smash'N'Splash 4. Since no one is replying, and I am making the chart for the results of the tournament, I might as well edit the upset list here:

BooBear(don't know who he used) 2-1 over Mekos. It happened in pools, and Mekos still has the highest seeding due to BooBear losing to Starman. BooBear got second seeding.

Also, BestNess did not make it to his Round 2 pools in time. He got DQ'ed out of winners and he is now in losers.

BONK! 2-1 over Ally. Ally in losers early.

 

[Lord Dio]

NameLess 2-0 chag with diddy

 

[Iridium]

Smash'N'Splash 4 Doubles:

1st: Ally Mistake
2nd: Cosmos VoiD
3rd: komorikiri MKLeo
4th: Darkshad Light
5th: Captain Zack Salem
5th: tyroy Mr. R
7th: FroZn BestNess
7th: Miloni BooBear
9th: Captain L Elegant
9th: Mekos 8BitMan
9th: Komota Crispy
9th: Fons / Marshall


When I heard Coney say that he believes that Puff is mid tier, I legit was laughing. It didn't help that he was constantly getting freaked out over Rest.
I know that Coney is a bit radical when it comes to tier placements but still... during commentary?

Nevertheless, a good top 8, and I wonder if they will hold this ban on Cloud for other doubles tournaments.




Edit: Upset list for Smash'N'Splash 4. Since no one is replying, and I am making the chart for the results of the tournament, I might as well edit the upset list here:

BooBear(don't know who he used) 2-1 over Mekos. It happened in pools, and Mekos still has the highest seeding due to BooBear losing to Starman. BooBear got second seeding.

Also, BestNess did not make it to his Round 2 pools in time. He got DQ'ed out of winners and he is now in losers.

BONK! 2-1 over Ally. Ally in losers early.

You should note that in doubles, FroZn and BestNess won a game against Captain Zack and Salem with &, respectively.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You should note that in doubles, FroZn and BestNess won a game against Captain Zack and Salem with &, respectively.

Yes, but it didn't end very well afterwards, so I didn't count it.


BestNess got the worst of luck in this tournament. Didn't make it to his winner's match, and got DQ'ed to losers. He then had to fight Rags (who is a strong up-and-coming player) to make it to top 64, and lost 2-1, finishing at 65th. Hopefully Gackt, TGG, and ATATA doesn't receive this type of luck as well.

 

[MarioManTAW]

BONK! 2-1 Ally
Meanwhile at DreamHack Austin:
Hyrule Hero 2-0 Hakii

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Isn't that singles results?

 

[Iridium]

BONK! 2-1 Ally
Meanwhile at DreamHack Austin:
Hyrule Hero 2-0 Hakii

Hyrule Hero? I thought he doesn't play very much anymore. Interesting. Do you have a bracket for DreamHack Austin?

Edit: Nevermind. I found it.

 

[Lord Dio]

Ozone 2-0 maister with dhd

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ozone 2-0 over Maister. The Midwest now looks at the stream with a sinister smile of revenge after what Maister did at Combo Breaker.

 

[Iridium]

Man, Ally has to deal with Chag in losers in top 64. I'm scared for him right now, but Komorikiri has a possible good shot at making top 8 to make me feel better.

Raito 2-1 Kasen , with Raito getting a double 2-stock after game 1. Quick adaptation clearly showed itself.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Gist of the zaki vs Captain Zack ending: "Here comes the giant fist."

Props to zaki taking a game off of Captain Zack, although Zack is known to get easily thrown off against mid/low tiered characters.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Gackt take down PowPow in really intense match despite being 2-0. Im shaken rn.. Gackt now in top 64 winners. Lets Go. Poggers

 

[Iridium]

Gist of the zaki vs Captain Zack ending: "Here comes the giant fist."

Props to zaki taking a game off of Captain Zack, although Zack is known to get easily thrown off against mid/low tiered characters.

That post about Ness you made earlier seems to almost be becoming real. ATATA, Spencer and BestNess are all out, leaving SLAMShady, TGG and Gackt.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Gackt take down PowPow in really intense match. Im shaken rn PogChamp Gackt no in top 64 winners. Lets Go.

Yeah, that was close. Both TGG and Gackt are in top 64 winners.

TGG is up against Panda Bair. This would be hard to TGG due to it being Ness vs Villager, but TGG has a Diddy and Bayo to play with.

Gackt is going to be in a really hard match against Salem. Definitely something to look out for.

Mekos is going to fight Cosmos. Considering what happened at Glitch, I don't see Mekos winning this.

That post about Ness you made earlier seems to almost be becoming real. ATATA, Spencer and BestNess are all out, leaving TGG and Gackt. Toon Links seem to be showing up though more.

BestNess would probably be able to make it, if it weren't for him being DQ'ed from winners, and running into Rags of all players in losers. Still hyped to see what TGG and Gackt is going to do, considering TGG placed 17th in Smash'N'Splash 3 last year.


Edit: Midnight beats Blacktwins 2-1.