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Corrin can't really gimp Cloud all that well and landing against him is such a struggle. Oh, and let's not forget that if he has limit he can make getting off ledge really hard. Slight advantage Cloud (if you look at notable Corrin MU charts you'll see that they all agree with this).
I get what you are trying to say I will consider this
That has literally zero relevance to whether or not they win the MU.
Friendly reminder that Maister got 13th at G5, beating both Mistake and Fatality, but no one talked about it because everyone was busy being salty that Bayo got second
I get that no matter how amazing a tournament is if a Bayonetta does well at all no matter how crazy the story is people will automatically hate the tournament
Yeah, man, the best players of said characters definitely don’t have any relevancy in determining MUs.
Captain L is probably the best Puff player, and he thinks she's a mid tier. Should we listen to him?
No, because he is one person. An outlier. It’s different when there’s a group of people who share the same opinion. Not only that, but results and theory both disprove his opinion.
Right. These Marth/Lucina and Rosalina players are the best of their characters and play against the best Bayonettas; they (should) know how their tools interact with her’s, how to play neutral, and etc. They all have reasons to back up why they all believe none of them beat her.
I think you missed the point of his quote. Their opinions themselves aren't what's important, it's the reasons for those opinions.
Outlier compared to whom? There are no other top Puffs to disagree with him.
The same can be said of Marth losing to Bayo. Even if it couldn't, you've just admitted that results and theory are more important than the opinions of top players, so why is it that whenever someone says Marth beats Bayo, you argue with top players' opinions instead of results or theory?
First of all, etc. stands for et cetera, which is Latin for "and so on." "And etc" is a sin.
And Captain L has reasons he thinks Puff is a mid tier. Trump has reasons he thinks building a wall along the southern border will stop illegal immigration. Hitler had reasons for the Holocaust. Saying someone "has reasons" for something is a statement that's nebulosity is near unrivaled. What those reasons are is the important part, not that they exist.
I didn't miss that at all.
MASTER PUFFY, LeeT, Dol, and Speclar are all notable Jigglypuff players. And I could even be missing some.
I'm personally not a fan of using results to determine a MU because then you get stuff like this:
Post quality here recently really has gone so far down that we're really calling out grammatical errors in arguments.
Correct, but I just explained how he is an outlier.
Correct, that's why I included that word. There are 58 characters in the game, knowing every single MU isn't likely. However, until you can prove that they aren't proficient enough in the MU, my point still stands. They are extremely successful players, they clearly know what they are doing.
Nice exaggeration, I get your point though. It would be nice if they explained their reasons for why they believe the way they do. However, I'm more inclined to believe that they have good reasons considering they all agree that Marth and Rosalina just don't beat her. There are no extreme outliers in this situation.
lmao
Joeyboi went ham with his explanations (again lol). We will not take things that far.
I honestly believe Dabuz will win Smash and splash, he's just a very calculated player and if you go to game 5 with him then he'll most likely know your playstyle throughly.
Not surprised someone brought this up.
In its most distilled form, this says "X has/had reasons for believing Y therefore Y is correct." All I did was provide examples where this logic fails, and because I assume none of us here are Neo-Nazis, I figured Hitler would make a good example. That said, I definitely could've phrased it better. "The Holocaust" is pretty vague.
That doesn't answer why you don't use theory.I'm personally not a fan of using results to determine a MU because then you get stuff like this:
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As a general rule, they don't.
Saying "Leo is just better" is doing everyone a disservice. Why is Leo just better? What does he do that's letting him beat Bayo's so consistently, while other Marths fail to do the same? Writing top players off as "just better" obscures what they're actually doing that makes them that good.
Is that a bad thing? I pointed it out because it annoys me, not because you not knowing Latin detracts from your argument.
The fact that they all agree is no guarantee they have good reasons for it. It's much safer to discount their opinions on the subject until we get their reasoning.
That sounds good, documenting all of Smash 4's information will make it easier to find.
yeah the metagame for smash 4 is pretty much established at this point and is starting to become a lot more consistent just like melee
Smash 4 has really been throughly explored at this point, theres no sort of "newcomer" player that is surprising players either.
We've pretty much figured out the meta as far as how things will progress towards Smash 4's end. IMO, this meta isn't that interesting, so I'm just chilling.
this isn't really something to worry about this happens with every competitive game after it stops being patched eventually people figure out the metagame people lose interest in the game but smash 4 wont die until smash switch comes out
What do you mean "third jumps". Are you talking about Bayo's triple jump glitch?
Reflex expressed his view on Smash 4 in great detail in his post, I can agree with some of the stuff he is saying.
.
used him to finish off a bayo in pools
I do agree with some of this stuff but not this in melee and 64 getting hit offstage pretty much meant I instant death for most characters having most characters have a good recovery means people can focus on fighting instead of knocking people offstage it also makes edgeguarding a lot more comital instead of just being freeI didn't even see Reflex mention third jumps or 'up specials' aside from mentioning how SDI is near useless save for against a few moves like Bayo's up and side specials. Regardless, recoveries are indeed too strong in Sm4sh. Border distances from stages are generally too small, air speeds are generally too high, air dodges start too quick, last too long and have too little endlag and up specials have generous distances, speed and/or hitboxes and aerials don't last long enough or end fast enough to beat air dodges and the angles most of them send at aren't ideal for edgeguarding. There's also only like 2 dairs in the entire game that actually meteor for the entire duration and they're on bad characters
and that's there opinion so who cares
Mistake's fairly new, Captain L and Maister are both notable up-and-comers.
There's also only like 2 dairs in the entire game that actually meteor for the entire duration and they're on bad characters
does, albeit because his dair only lasts one frame.
And also Maister and Sinji
People tend to care about the opinions of top players simply because they're top players. Not the best reasoning but people do care. As for the first point, I feel there's a delicate balance that can be met. In 64, Melee and Brawl, there were very few good recoveries (off the top of my head there's
) meanwhile, in Sm4sh there's very few bad recoveries (and to a lesser extent ). Like it or not, Smash is a fighting game that focuses on both onstage and offstage interactions to get KOs and win matches, with some characters doing better onstage like Mac while others do better offstage like Jigglypuff. Both should be manageable. Like, I'm okay with ledge trumping being in the game since it means you have to do more than just send someone far enough away that they have to grab the ledge and then grab it yourself and they're dead but in Sm4sh, it's damn near impossible to make it so most characters can't even make it to the ledge. It's partly why there's such a heavy focus on ledge trapping and vertical KOs, going offstage often isn't even worth it a good amount of the time.
That's pretty well written and reflects a lot of my sentiments with smash 4 over the years. Especially on how overtuned rolls and air dodges are. Being someone who plays a slower character it can get quite frustrating trying to deal with what should be really bad roll backs or roll ins (mostly roll backs). Getting punished for correctly anticipating a roll back because a rolling opponent can act so quickly out of roll (most characters atleast) is pretty lame, same goes for air dodges which are even worse offenders. Most characters can act within 6 frames of their intangiblity ending which is honestly absurd when you think about it especially given how most ADs activate within 3-2 frames and last over 20 frames. Then when you factor in the input buffer you have options that are often not as punishable as they should unless you commit to a harder read and do it sooner which is often risky. I do appreciate how much lag to receive for air dodging into the ground as an attempt to discourage air dodge spam but due to quick startup speed of air dodges this often (for me atleast but it's more of a personal timing problem) causes me to accidentally air dodge into the ground when attempting to quickly land and shield.
At least they don't cancel hitstun anymore. XD
or Meta Knight
That second time I said Mistake, I meant to say Maister, whoops.
He means recoveries.
My thoughts on said post:
While I agree rage was implemented poorly, I'm not sure I'd call rage a good, healthy mechanic. I certainly think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game and I would love to see it return in a less problematic form, but neither "good" nor "healthy" are words I'd use to describe it.
Can't speak to Brawl because I'm largely unfamiliar with competitive Brawl (I do know MK was broken at ledge, but I don't think anyone else was), but in Melee, ledge options (ledge option, really) are much better than they are in Sm4sh, so I'm not sure I'd consider good ledge options a culprit here. Good recoveries definitely are, though, for the same reasons they were in Brawl.
Special mention to this bit for being blatantly incorrect. No more than 10 jab 1s are actually comparable in speed to your average airdodge.
I don't think there's a single character with no way to frametrap airdodges close to the ground.
I think he's exaggerating here. While the changes to DI and SDI mean that it's harder to DI out of combos, this has been replaced, to some extent, by the ability to cancel hitstun into certain actions before it's over, which limits the amount of combos that are actually true, and while DI is a lot easier now, teching is a lot harder, and missed techs can hurt a lot more. Most defensive mechanics that were nerfed have been replaced by something else in this way.
They do
Opps. But definitely not at the degree of Brawl.
