Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Iridium]

Komorikiri 3-1 Dabuz ! He gets his third win on Dabuz this season, and is now guaranteed 4th at MomoCon 2018!

 

[Ordeaux26]

Komorikiri 3-1 Dabuz ! He gets his third win on Dabuz this season, and is now guaranteed 4th at Momocon 2018!

if he does get 4th place that will be 3 4th place finishers at 3 a-tier's in a row

 

[Minordeth]

Man... Komo 3-1 over Dabuz. Those first two games were just a full blitzkreig. Komo’s return to the states has been pretty stellar.

He hasn’t been outside of a top 8 placing since 2018 began.

 

[Iridium]

Nairo 3-0 Lima in a somewhat close set, this time 3-0ing a Bayo and staying alive. I do hope Komorikiri wins the next set though.

Tweek 3-0 Salem in an almost dominant performance to make grand finals at MomoCon 2018!

Komorikiri3-2 Nairo for his second win ever over him! Nairo has now failed to keep his MomoCon win streak alive however. He now faces off against Salem.

 

[Minordeth]

Wow. Komo 3-2 over Nairo in probably the most tense game 5 I’ve seen in a while.

 

[Lord Dio]

OH MY GOD MY HEART
THAT WAS AMAZING

 

[Ordeaux26]

Wow. Komo 3-2 over Nairo in probably the most tense game 5 I’ve seen in a while.

well I know what's going in my most hype smash 4 sets list

https://smashboards.com/threads/most-hype-smash-4-sets-2018.454186/

 

[Iridium]

Well, Komo made a good run. I really would have loved to see face Tweek, but 3rd place is realy good!

 

[The_Bookworm]

If Tweek wins grand finals, does it count as Bayo's first victory at a major this year? Tweek used Cloud on every opponent that isn't Salem.

 

[Ordeaux26]

If Tweek wins grand finals, does it count as Bayo's first victory at a major this year? Tweek used Cloud on every opponent that isn't Salem.

i don't know its hard to say

Edit: also i don't know if this even counts as a major i know its a a-tier but still

 

[The_Bookworm]

MomoCon 2018 (A tier) (353 Entrants)

1st: Tweek
2nd: Salem
3rd: komorikiri
4th: Nairo
5th: Lima
5th: Dabuz
7th: Samsora
7th: Wrath
9th: Manny
9th: Light
9th: Fatality
9th: Mistake
13th: Larry Lurr
13th: Raito
13th: Mr. R
13th: ANTi
17th: MuteAce
17th: Cosmos
17th: ScAtt
17th: VoiD
17th: dyr
17th: NAKAT
17th: Salt One
17th: NovaPixl
25th: Sinji
25th: Kiki
25th: falln
25th: HyperKirby
25th: Blank
25th: Draxsel
25th: Peabnut
25th: Neos

Notable Players out Earlier
33rd: Mr. E
33rd: Sean (Cashmere)
33rd: Koolaid
33rd: Mekos
33rd: Zaki
49th: Rideae
289th: Captain Zack (DQ'ed)


The fact that MKLeo was absent, helped Tweek's and Salem's chances.

 

[Iridium]

Tweek just won MomoCon 2018 over Salem, 3-2!

 

[Ordeaux26]

The fact that MKLeo was absent, helped Tweek's and Salem's chances.

to be honest, if mkleo was here and Salem had to face him Salem would not stand a chance of getting second

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

OH MY GOD MY HEART
THAT WAS AMAZING

Komo is on a roll this season.

 

[Heracr055]

^Actually you could say that about any player Ordeaux26. Leo is a hard stop to almost everyone.
And 2nd place is still a good placing. Hopefully Salem can lab out the MU for a future Bayo ditto.
Shame about the Rosalinas earlier (especially Samsora, who gave away game 2 iirc).
And good stuff to Komo overcoming his demon Nairo.

 

[Iridium]

Komo is just that one player people overlook when it comes to the top 10. But his wins and placements are just too good to ignore, and I think he fits around the 7th-9th spot honestly.

 

[Ordeaux26]

^Actually you could say that about any player Ordeaux26. Leo is a hard stop to almost everyone.
And 2nd place is still a good placing. Hopefully Salem can lab out the MU for a future Bayo ditto.

that is a good point this is definitely a good performance for Salem but I'm not sure how much it will affect is placement on the PGR especially since this wasn't a super big event to begin with

 

[EMT~]

I never particularly cared for using player MU charts as a way to try and prove that an MU is X. They're fun to look at to see what other people think, but the infinitely more important thing is the why. What leads them to think that? It's a lot more useful to know the reasoning behind it all.

Of course, this isn't something one expects from an MU chart itself, as it's just an image, but, y'know....

Understandably so, and I happen to agree with you. I guess my initial response was me reading your "citation needed" comment a little too literally and responding based on that.

And while I can't explain why other players think the way they do, I can at least explain why I think the way I do about the MU:

-The primary thing that stands out to me is that Corrin's range cuts down on DH's optimal playing range. While DH is a projectile zoner, his projectiles are kind of slow in actually traversing the stage. Additionally, his projectiles tend to cover stage space for a long time. Combined, this means that DHD optimally plays at a mid-ish type range, where he can easily pressure his opponents with projectiles as well as quickly weave in and out of the action himself and use his own moves to act independently of projectiles and take advantage of opponent's reponses to his projectile pressure (e.g., shield grab on a person shielding a Gunman). Now DH plays outside of Pin's striking range, but only by a bit. This means that Corrin can actually threaten DHD when he plays a bit closer than normal, like doing a short approach or weaving in for whatever reason. This limit's DH's own options, as now he needs to monitor his own range and play with extra caution while weaving in, all to avoid being pinned or hit by another of Corrin's huge-ranged moves. Not the type of thing you want to deal with.

-Corrin is very good at handling DH's Can. This is somewhat self-evident due to the amount of disjoint that Corrin has, but a few of her moves have properties that are especially amazing for swatting the Can away, such as Pin for its speed and huge range; and NAir for its combined disjoint and long-lasting hitbox. The post-Pin kick also provides a form of mobility that goes through the Can, though it's not exactly the sort of thing you would want to approach with. And while it's not exactly the best option in the game for this, the DFS shot can also mess up the Can trajectory from range, which can seriously throw a wrench into DH's gameplan (seriously, this sort of counterplay is something people need to do more against DH).

-Saying DH feeds Corrin rage, while true, isn't really meaningful because DH feeds the opponent rage in basically every MU. The meaningful question is, how well can Corrin take advantage of it? But it seems like Corrin takes advantage of it reasonably well, between Pin and the potential for a DFS bite. And while DH has an exploitable recovery and somewhat iffy landing game, that isn't meaningful on its own either. The meaningful question, again. is whether Corrin can take advantage of it. On the first point, I'm not actually sure about that. On the second point, though, yeah, Corrin takes advantage of that big time. One of DH's landing options is using the Can to cover his landing, and Corrin can just swat that away or nullify it otherwise. Otherwise, nothing that DH can land with can challenge Corrin's juggling options.

Maybe I'm just overestimating Pin as a tool, but I've always considered this a pretty bad MU for Duck Hunt. I was sweating bullets when Raito ran into Cosmos at Switchfest.

 

[Lord Dio]

Komo was already scoring decently, with 7th places and 5th places at a-tiers frostbite and switchfest, but truth be told he lacked PGR wins. Cloudhead hasn't updated for GOML and onward yet, so it's a good image of where he was at-which is, only 3 PGR wins, and the biggest one being VoiD, the second biggest being samsora (who I believe is currently doing better than VoiD this season).
Then GOML came and he beat samsora and then double eliminated dabuz, who's top 5 last season and this one too.
Plus this week he ran through Salt One, Anti, Mistake, wrath, dabuz for the third time, and nairo, one of his biggest demons, and went game 5 with salem, which is an incredibly impressive loser's run to say the least.

In the past two weeks he's made 5th and 3rd at huge a-tiers, got 7 wins over pgr'ed players from last season, two of whom were top five last season, and three of whom are top 5 this season. Combine that with two other top eight placings at previous a-tiers.

I'd say Komo secured himself a spot in this season's top ten with that insane loser's run.

Edt: He even found a bayo counter in corrin, and is showing the ability to overcome his biggest demons in the bayo players now.

 

[Rizen]

After much contemplation, I've decided to more or less leave this thread. My mom has cancer and I've never been more worried about the future. But the reason I'm leaving is, TBT, there's nothing left to be said about SSB4. And I've felt that way for several months. My weeklies at the collage are out for the summer and SSB5's right around the corner as if Nintendo could keep a deadline. Feel free to tag me if any related questions arise.

One last OT note: FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS SACRED VOTE IN 2018 AND 2020!!!

Remember when you're feeling down "We all go back to where we belong"
-REM.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I was sweating bullets when Raito ran into Cosmos at Switchfest.

MU familiarity at top level of play is a huge factor. Cosmos has a lot of experience playing against some of the best Cloud, Bayonetta, Sheik, and Fox players, but has much less experience against top level Duck Hunt players (who mostly seem to be Japanese, from what I've gathered). Even then, it's not like he was losing hard to Raito, the games looked pretty close from what I saw (Cosmos was pretty much one kill move away from winning game 2). I could see it being "just" a +1 MU for Corrin though, although it is hard to say since we do not have much data of top level Corrins vs top level Duck Hunts. Let's not forget one important factor with Corrin: She's somewhat slow, meaning that projectile users can use their projectiles somewhat more safetly than against Cloud or Marcina. Of course, her burst options are pretty good, and Duck Hunt players really need to keep pin in mind.

Edt: He even found a bayo counter in corrin, and is showing the ability to overcome his biggest demons in the bayo players now.

I still think Corrin is "just" an even MU for Bayo, though going even against the best character in the game is not bad.

 

[MarioManTAW]

MU familiarity at top level of play is a huge factor. Cosmos has a lot of experience playing against some of the best Cloud, Bayonetta, Sheik, and Fox players, but has much less experience against top level Duck Hunt players (who mostly seem to be Japanese, from what I've gathered). Even then, it's not like he was losing hard to Raito, the games looked pretty close from what I saw (Cosmos was pretty much one kill move away from winning game 2). I could see it being "just" a +1 MU for Corrin though, although it is hard to say since we do not have much data of top level Corrins vs top level Duck Hunts. Let's not forget one important factor with Corrin: She's somewhat slow, meaning that projectile users can use their projectiles somewhat more safetly than against Cloud or Marcina. Of course, her burst options are pretty good, and Duck Hunt players really need to keep pin in mind.

I still think Corrin is "just" an even MU for Bayo, though going even against the best character in the game is not bad.

Yes, most top-level Duck Hunts are Japanese, though there are a few notable American ones. Even some of the notable American ones are largely inactive (MVD who plays Diddy now, ImHip who plays mostly Olimar, and Dandy Penguin who rarely travels). It just so happens that the most notable active American Duck Hunt lives relatively close to Cosmos (Ozone), but I don't think they've fought in tournament.
Potentially notable sets in the MU: https://ssbworld.com/matchup/corrin-vs-duck-hunt

 

[Ordeaux26]

I still think Corrin is "just" an even MU for Bayo, though going even against the best character in the game is not bad.

what matchups do you think Bayonetta loses

 

[The_Bookworm]

what matchups do you think Bayonetta loses

I think she slightly loses to Marth, Corrin, and Diddy.

Sheik and Rosa may be potential loses, but more data must be conducted to see if it true.

 

[Frihetsanka]

what matchups do you think Bayonetta loses

I currently don't believe she loses any MUs. An even MU is as bad as it gets for Bayonetta. #1 privileges, I suppose.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I currently don't believe she loses any MUs. An even MU is as bad as it gets for Bayonetta. #1 privileges, I suppose.

I don't agree with you on that but it's your opinion I just wish there was an official matchup chart

 

[The_Bookworm]

I don't agree with you on that but it's your opinion I just wish there was an official matchup chart

I wish too. However, the roster is too big + a larger divide in the community in terms of opinion, to make a concrete matchup chart.

 

[Illusion.]

Literally zero top Marth/Lucina and Rosalina players believe they beat Bayonetta, two of them are even dubbed “Bayo slayers.”

Y’all gotta stop.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Literally zero top Marth/Lucina and Rosalina players believe they beat Bayonetta, two of them are even dubbed “Bayo slayers.”

Y’all gotta stop.

One: their announcement of their thought against Bayo came from a long time ago.
Two: top players tend to over-exaggerate / underwhelm their own character's strengths and weaknesses.

We already had this conversation earlier this thread.

 

[Illusion.]

One: their announcement of their thought against Bayo came from a long time ago.
Two: top players tend to over-exaggerate / underwhelm their own character's strengths and weaknesses.

We already had this conversation earlier this thread.

One: You are mostly incorrect. Dabuz’s chart came out in February, and he has continually made comments about the MU afterwards. falln’s chart is from March. In April, Mkleo, once again, states that Bayonetta beats Marth.
As for Mr. E and Pugwest, their opinions (losing and even, respectively) are from September of 2017, whether or not that is "a long time" is completely up to you., but you also have to realize that their opinion is very likely the same.

Two: While that is true, what evidence do you have to suggest that they are doing so?

 

[Ordeaux26]

I wish too. However, the roster is too big + a larger divide in the community in terms of opinion, to make a concrete matchup chart.

I can see what you mean by the large divide in the community if some tried to create matchup chart for smash 4 involving multiple smashers it would fall apart fast because nobody can agree on anything when it comes to matchup charts for smash 4

that's why I just have my own matchup chart

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JKXX_-y_y2gg5YUCfcaNj9RgKBuWkoJj1HBSQNdKYe4/edit#gid=0

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I can see what you mean by the large divide in the community if some tried to create matchup chart for smash 4 involving multiple smashers it would fall apart fast because nobody can agree on anything when it comes to matchup charts for smash 4

that's why I just have my own matchup chart

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JKXX_-y_y2gg5YUCfcaNj9RgKBuWkoJj1HBSQNdKYe4/edit#gid=0

It would be difficult to make due the varying opinions of others in the community.

 

[Ordeaux26]

It would be difficult to make due the varying opinions of others in the community.

since everyone contradicts each other on matchups on a regular basis I base my matchup chart on my opinion

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't agree with you on that but it's your opinion I just wish there was an official matchup chart

It's not my opinion, it's my belief. It is, granted, not a strongly held belief, but it is, nevertheless, a belief about a fact, namely that fact that Bayonetta does not lose any matchups at top level of play.

Which matchups do you believe she loses?

that's why I just have my own matchup chart

Corrin loses -1 to Cloud and does not lose -2 to Meta Knight (probably even).

 

[Ordeaux26]

It's not my opinion, it's my belief. It is, granted, not a strongly held belief, but it is, nevertheless, a belief about a fact, namely that fact that Bayonetta does not lose any matchups at top level of play.

whats the difference

Which matchups do you believe she loses?

it is listed on my matchup chart https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JKXX_-y_y2gg5YUCfcaNj9RgKBuWkoJj1HBSQNdKYe4/edit#gid=0

but to be honest I'm not sure about Pikachu anymore and I might add Marth to losing matchups category for Bayonetta

Diddy Kong pretty obvious superior neutral and bananas

Shiek superior neutral amazing recovery and her needles as well as her combo game working really well against Bayonetta

and when it comes to the subject of corrin vs meta knight

it doesn't have anything to do with range because if it did than cloud would beat corrin Meta Knights jumps are really good against corrin his latter combos work really well against her and forward smash is a safe kill move you can always use something that cloud lacks

 

[The_Bookworm]

Is it just me, or we haven't seen Das Koopa in a while. May 2018 is drawling to a close, and he didn't even post the results for April 2018 yet.

 

[Ordeaux26]

the brackets for Smash'N'Splash 4 have been released

 

[Nah]

Edit: also i don't know if this even counts as a major i know its a a-tier but still

idk if there's ever been an official definition for what qualifies as a major, but personally I'd call Momocon 2018 a major. It had ~350 entrants and a lot of big names, so that's good enough for me to call it a major. I (and I think a lot of people) also then have a level above major of "supermajor", which is like the hyper-big tournaments like EVO and Genesis and that sort of ****

also Corrin definitely loses to Cloud, all the Fire Emblem characters lose to Cloud really

Is it just me, or we haven't seen Das Koopa in a while. May 2018 is drawling to a close, and he didn't even post the results for April 2018 yet.

eh, sometimes people get busy with irl ****

but, hey, Das Koopa

 

[Das Koopa]

April results will be done via a gigantic article on June 7th that covers the entire phase

Currently in the process of making it, more info here;

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...g_soon_the_state_of_smash_4_a_2018_report_on/

 

[Ordeaux26]

also Corrin definitely loses to Cloud, all the Fire Emblem characters lose to Cloud really

I'm not sure about that they can all keep up with cloud's except for Robin and Roy range and can all gimp him really well

idk if there's ever been an official definition for what qualifies as a major, but personally I'd call Momocon 2018 a major. It had ~350 entrants and a lot of big names, so that's good enough for me to call it a major. I (and I think a lot of people) also then have a level above major of "supermajor", which is like the hyper-big tournaments like EVO and Genesis and that sort of ****

and i agree i do think that Momocom is a Major i changed my mind but what re the supermajor's this year personaly i think

Genesis 5
Frostbite 2018