Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Iridium]

Two C tiers coming up this weekend.

Port Priority 3 (208 Attendees) (Northwest)

PGR Players
Dabuz
ANTi
Mr. E
Konga
6WX
Vinnie

Notable Players
Ralphie
Captain L
JaKaL
Pyreeze
John Numbers
Big D


KVO x TSB 2018 (120 Attendees) (Japan)

PGR Players
Abadango
komorikiri
Shuton
Raito
Choco

Notable Players
shky
takera
Gackt
T
kept
HIKARU
Shogun
Kome

Man. For KVOxTSB 2018, the bracket seems messed up. Can't even find T or Raito in any.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

It's not just that Robin's slow on the ground, it's that she's slow in general. Nothing about her mobility specs is good. Fastest aerials (Nair and Bair) are frame 9, and then she has a frame 7 jumpsquat on top of that. Fire and Thunder spells take 18 frames to cast (Thoron is 20 actually) and aren't exactly lagless.


Please define "decent zoning game"


I don't think that I've heard of this Robin, who are they?

Robin can create traps with Arc fire and uncharged Arc thunder is a quick projectile. Charged Arc thunder puts the opponent in the prime position for a grab or other follow-up. Robin's book can also be thrown as a moderately damaging projectile. Robin just has the tools of a zoning character combined with a powerful disjoint in Levin sword.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Man. For KVOxTSB 2018, the bracket seems messed up. Can't even find T or Raito in any.

It looks like this tournament uses "pool floating" i.e. some of the best players get to skip pools and auto-qualify for the main bracket (Top 16). For this tournament, those players would be Abadango, Shuton, Raito, T, HIKARU, shky, Masashi, and Towa.

 

[J0eyboi]

Honestly, nothing about the sheik matchup seems easy for mac, and again, imo, wario (and possibly roy, don't @ me on that) seems worse for sheik, as far as low tiers.

@ing you on that, because I'm curious as to why you think that.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Talking about lower tiers who do well against , I looked at the top s' matchup charts, and a lot put as one of the harder to deal with among the low tiers. (sinnyboo242 even put it in 's favor!) The only 2 characters in low tier (E Tier and below on the official list) that any top considered to be even or losing are and (which Karna says is even).

 

[The_Bookworm]

The only 2 characters in low tier (E Tier and below on the official list)

E Tier as low tier? The back room really needs to address this unnecessary "addition" to the tier list.

 

[MarioManTAW]

E Tier as low tier? The back room really needs to address this unnecessary "addition" to the tier list.

Well, the context is of as a low tier, so whatever you want to call it, that tier and below.

 

[Lord Dio]

E Tier as low tier? The back room really needs to address this unnecessary "addition" to the tier list.

How is it unnecessary though?

@ing you on that, because I'm curious as to why you think that.

His recovery is imo slightly better than mac's, so that's one thing he has over mac already. His disjoints may suck, but at least they're there, and provide range for him (haven't put roy's attacks side by side with mac's but I'd bet on roy outranging mac). I've seen plenty of combos by roy that do just as much damage as a mac combo could, and most of them start off of a grab, which imo is a safer option than mac's grounded ones. He's not that much slower than mac, so he can cover mobility just as easily. Sure, needles and sheik neutral are there, but imo roy having range via his sword, being just as mobile, having combos that start off a safer option, and being able to get back to the stage a couple more times than mac, puts him as being worse for sheik to fight than mac.

 

[The_Bookworm]

How is it unnecessary though?

It is unnecessary because while it gives more people more freedom to express what tier is low, mid, etc, it only leads to more debate and argument on what tier / character is low, mid, etc. It was a pretty random to do as well (alongside the 0.1 system) because no other tier list across all smash bros games (except for maybe the early Melee tier lists) has ever done this strange maneuver.

 

[Iridium]

It looks like this tournament uses "pool floating" i.e. some of the best players get to skip pools and auto-qualify for the main bracket (Top 16). For this tournament, those players would be Abadango, Shuton, Raito, T, HIKARU, shky, Masashi, and Towa.

Okay. Good to know. Just like the Umebura tournaments sometimes.

 

[WiFi]

Roy is pretty easy for Sheik. Sheik murders swordsmen in general, but Roy is one of the easiest characters to combo in the game, on top of his bottom tier recovery. Completely forgot about Kirby and Wario. Kirby is even imo, for the same reasons why he goes even with Fox. Wario, on the other hand, is a doable matchup. I'd suggest watching a Gluttony vs Mr.R set.

Mac is really annoying on FD. On FD, Mac and Sheik are even.

 

[Lord Dio]

It is unnecessary because while it gives more people more freedom to express what tier is low, mid, etc, it only leads to more debate and argument on what tier / character is low, mid, etc. It was a pretty random to do as well (alongside the 0.1 system) because no other tier list across all smash bros games (except for maybe the early Melee tier lists) has ever done this strange maneuver.

I believe shortly after this list came out one of the mods came on and said that if you wanted to classify them into mid, low, high, tiers etc, they classified which were which, and iirc E was low tier, B was high tier, A was top tier, C was mid tier but borderline high, D was low-mid tier (sameas C, a borderline), G was bottom tier, and I'm pretty sure (but not completely sure) that F was low. I *think* that's how it went, and how that mod said it would be ideal to view it as, but you'd have to ask them I suppose.

Roy is one of the easiest characters to combo in the game, on top of his bottom tier recovery.

The exact same sentence is also applicable to Little mac though.

Wario, on the other hand, is a doable matchup. I'd suggest watching a Gluttony vs Mr.R set.

Mac is really annoying on FD. On FD, Mac and Sheik are even.

See, I say Wario is the worst low tier for sheik to fight for a multitude of reasons, one of those being actual sets between top players of the characters that show it can be a rough patch for sheik (and yeah I know gluto's super good and that kinda carries wario here a lil bit etc etc). But looking for sets for mac vs sheik.....it's a little rough. Sol apparently has beaten k9, but k9 also plays diddy as well as sheik, and I can't find the set on YT. Nothing on Alphicans, and while Vash has beaten Nietono and Edge, Edge's set has him playing Diddy. If any of the Japanese macs have a win on a sheik then either it isn't listed or those macs don't have a page on the smash wiki so I have no real way of easily seeing what wins they have (bt yamato and // don't have pages, Yaminabe's wins are "Filip and several other strong players").
So whereas You can easily find Gluto fighting sheiks, a quick search of the top macs shows almost nothing for the matchup, thus I have a very hard time believing mac is as good against sheik as you say he is.

 

[ARGHETH]

It is unnecessary because while it gives more people more freedom to express what tier is low, mid, etc, it only leads to more debate and argument on what tier / character is low, mid, etc. It was a pretty random to do as well (alongside the 0.1 system) because no other tier list across all smash bros games (except for maybe the early Melee tier lists) has ever done this strange maneuver.

...I'm confused. Are you talking about the lettering system? Because the last official Melee tier list (on the wiki) has literally the same letters.

 

[The_Bookworm]

...I'm confused. Are you talking about the lettering system? Because the last official Melee tier list (on the wiki) has literally the same letters.

No lol. I was talking about tier categories (for example: S tier is "top tier"). They removed any official tier categories in the new official list, which was unprecedented before in the history of all smash bros tier lists (except for early Melee, but that was a weird time). They made other weird changes to the list (such as the 0.1 system), but this one left some debate on what tier is low tier or high tier or... you get the point.

I believe shortly after this list came out one of the mods came on and said that if you wanted to classify them into mid, low, high, tiers etc, they classified which were which, and iirc E was low tier, B was high tier, A was top tier, C was mid tier but borderline high, D was low-mid tier (sameas C, a borderline), G was bottom tier, and I'm pretty sure (but not completely sure) that F was low. I *think* that's how it went, and how that mod said it would be ideal to view it as, but you'd have to ask them I suppose.

I never heard of the mods giving out ideal views of the tier list categories. I only remember one of them, when the list was released, saying that F and G tier is suitable for low tier events, while D and E tier being suitable for mid tier events. Even then, we don't know if the mod's words are the law. Some low tier events use the E tier in their low tier events, despite the characters there (specifically Wario, Ike, and Game & Watch) having a clear advantage over the characters below them.

 

[EMT~]

When talking about Little Mac matchups, I believe it's also important to keep in mind the player-vs-player matchup, moreso than usual when judging matchups between characters. I remember a lot of old discussion centered around Bowser and DK talked about their role in the meta as something like "player counters", namely, as counters against players who shield a lot - this being the case for obvious reasons. I'm not sure how popular that sentimemt is these days, but I think Little Mac can be described as something of a "player counter", as well. Specifically, he counters players who play overly and senselessly aggressive (read: me). His ground mobility and toolkit is just good at punishing commital options in general, between having the mobility and footsies to bait and punish and/or reach enemies in some commital state (like endlag) and being able to power through attacks even if they do "work" and set the opponent in disadvantage as a result (at least with his Smash attacks).

Now obviously, character MUs still matter, a lot. So looking at the character MU, Little Mac vs. Shiek seems like it would be not so good for Mac if Shiek actually plays the MU correctly, at least in theory. Little Mac might be good at punishing commital options, but Shiek doesn't have many highly committal options to begin with. Especially not in the movelist that she uses for her neutral game. Not only that, but Shiek also doesn't need to approach Little Mac because needles and/or platform camping are a thing. Now this forces Little Mac to try to make things happen himself, which means he's more vulnerable to having his flaws being taken advantage of and being shredded alive as a result. We can see this with Shieks literally fairplaning Mac across the stage and gimping him early because of his bad recovery and (for the most part) inability to escape combos/strings due to his air game or lack thereof.

Player vs. player is a big consideration with Little Mac because of how he is as a character, but I can't see how the Shiek MU is anything but bad as long as the Shiek plays the MU correctly.

 

[The_Bookworm]

When talking about Little Mac matchups, I believe it's also important to keep in mind the player-vs-player matchup, moreso than usual when judging matchups between characters. I remember a lot of old discussion centered around Bowser and DK talked about their role in the meta as something like "player counters", namely, as counters against players who shield a lot - this being the case for obvious reasons. I'm not sure how popular that sentimemt is these days, but I think Little Mac can be described as something of a "player counter", as well. Specifically, he counters players who play overly and senselessly aggressive (read: me). His ground mobility and toolkit is just good at punishing commital options in general, between having the mobility and footsies to bait and punish and/or reach enemies in some commital state (like endlag) and being able to power through attacks even if they do "work" and set the opponent in disadvantage as a result (at least with his Smash attacks).

Now obviously, character MUs still matter, a lot. So looking at the character MU, Little Mac vs. Shiek seems like it would be not so good for Mac if Shiek actually plays the MU correctly, at least in theory. Little Mac might be good at punishing commital options, but Shiek doesn't have many highly committal options to begin with. Especially not in the movelist that she uses for her neutral game. Not only that, but Shiek also doesn't need to approach Little Mac because needles and/or platform camping are a thing. Now this forces Little Mac to try to make things happen himself, which means he's more vulnerable to having his flaws being taken advantage of and being shredded alive as a result. We can see this with Shieks literally fairplaning Little Mac to death because of his bad recovery and (for the most part) inability to escape combos/strings due to his air game or lack thereof.

Player vs. player is a big consideration with Little Mac because of how he is as a character, but I can't see how the Shiek MU is anything but bad as long as the Shiek plays the MU correctly.

It does explain of the fact that MKLeo has a long history of getting bodied by grapplers. He does finally has a solid answer to them (aka the witch herself), but he still struggles against them if he uses any other characters sans MK (which is shown at Switchfest GF).

The grapplers can wreck you if you don't play the matchup correctly, which is kinda true with the whole cast as well with Bayo being a notorious example of that.

 

[Heracr055]

Palutena is a somewhat troublesome MU for Ryu compared to Little Mac, who is only truly an uphill battle on Wifi. Palutena's throws are good for putting Ryu into problematic situations, especially dthrow to uair at higher percents, as mentioned previously. Palutena also has better mobility and a jab confirm into grab, which can be an issue. Dash attack is definitely a problem since it sends her past Ryu's punish zone if shielded. Her bair is annoying too.

Edit: Mac's dtilt into up B is a setup that can kill Ryu in the 100% range. And speaking of Mac multi hits, ftilt and especially pivot ftilt are annoyances that mess up FA & FADC. And KO punch setups can ruin Ryu's tendency to live a long time. I'd still take offline Mac over Palutena, though

 

[WiFi]

I believe shortly after this list came out one of the mods came on and said that if you wanted to classify them into mid, low, high, tiers etc, they classified which were which, and iirc E was low tier, B was high tier, A was top tier, C was mid tier but borderline high, D was low-mid tier (sameas C, a borderline), G was bottom tier, and I'm pretty sure (but not completely sure) that F was low. I *think* that's how it went, and how that mod said it would be ideal to view it as, but you'd have to ask them I suppose.


The exact same sentence is also applicable to Little mac though.

See, I say Wario is the worst low tier for sheik to fight for a multitude of reasons, one of those being actual sets between top players of the characters that show it can be a rough patch for sheik (and yeah I know gluto's super good and that kinda carries wario here a lil bit etc etc). But looking for sets for mac vs sheik.....it's a little rough. Sol apparently has beaten k9, but k9 also plays diddy as well as sheik, and I can't find the set on YT. Nothing on Alphicans, and while Vash has beaten Nietono and Edge, Edge's set has him playing Diddy. If any of the Japanese macs have a win on a sheik then either it isn't listed or those macs don't have a page on the smash wiki so I have no real way of easily seeing what wins they have (bt yamato and // don't have pages, Yaminabe's wins are "Filip and several other strong players").
So whereas You can easily find Gluto fighting sheiks, a quick search of the top macs shows almost nothing for the matchup, thus I have a very hard time believing mac is as good against sheik as you say he is.

Mac vs Sheik is a very rare matchup, as you have said. When Sol beat K9, K9 was actually playing Sheik. I think their set was on FD, which makes sense considering how Mac jumps up a tier when on FD. Other than that (Which was over a year ago), I don't think there has been a good Mac vs Post-Patch Sheik set. Zero has a bunch of sets against Mac players back when he played Sheik, but that was Pre-Patch.

 

[Lord Dio]

Mac vs Sheik is a very rare matchup, as you have said. When Sol beat K9, K9 was actually playing Sheik. I think their set was on FD, which makes sense considering how Mac jumps up a tier when on FD. Other than that (Which was over a year ago), I don't think there has been a good Mac vs Post-Patch Sheik set. Zero has a bunch of sets against Mac players back when he played Sheik, but that was Pre-Patch.

actually, that reminded me that ZeRo played sheik against wonderbread at civil war...............and after a rough start remembered what matchup he was playing and that he used to be the best sheik in the world, and then destroys wonderbread.

 

[Rizen]

It is unnecessary because while it gives more people more freedom to express what tier is low, mid, etc, it only leads to more debate and argument on what tier / character is low, mid, etc. It was a pretty random to do as well (alongside the 0.1 system) because no other tier list across all smash bros games (except for maybe the early Melee tier lists) has ever done this strange maneuver.

In low tier tournaments I've been in E tier was included. So was Duck Hunt Duo for some reason, idk :/

Anyway, Ike, Wario and maybe G&W belong in D tier. They're distinctly better than low tiers; stop underestimating Ike people! I support a large mid tier. It's how the game's balanced.

Ike has excellent control of space with jab, good grab combos, heavy weight, a good recovery and kill power. He belongs with Link, Shulk, Samus etc. He also bulldozes low tiers.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

In low tier tournaments I've been in E tier was included. So was Duck Hunt Duo for some reason, idk :/

Anyway, Ike, Wario and maybe G&W belong in D tier. They're distinctly better than low tiers; stop underestimating Ike people! I support a large mid tier. It's how the game's balanced.

Ike has excellent control of space with jab, good grab combos, heavy weight, a good recovery and kill power. He belongs with Link, Shulk, Samus etc. He also bulldozes low tiers.

I agree with this.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

A new Core-A Gaming video is out. I think this one is good because it tackles problems that our community has dealt with.

Miis, Bayonetta, Cloud, and all that jazz.

Take a look.

 

[J0eyboi]

Roy is pretty easy for Sheik. Sheik murders swordsmen in general, but Roy is one of the easiest characters to combo in the game, on top of his bottom tier recovery.

Top sheiks seem to agree with you, but top Sheiks also seem to think Shulk isn't +2 for them. Anyway, about that whole "bottom tier recovery" thing: One of the biggest problems with Roy's recovery is that he has a massive blindspot above him that he can't cover, because uair offstage is almost always an SD, but Shiek has no real way to exploit that blindspot. Needles might be able to, but at low percents Roy can just recover close to the stage, where needles can't hit. Additionally, when Roy's recovering close to the stage, Sheik doesn't really have a good option to hit him out of it. Her only options are nair, which is weak and laggy, and stagespike fair/bair, which can be teched. Once he's hit out far enough that he has to recover differently, Shiek can just go to town, but that tends not to happen till later mid percents (60-70).

Don't get me wrong, Roy absolutely loses the MU for a host of reasons, but it's not free in the slightest, and between him and Mac, I'd much rather be Roy. He probably fares a bit worse in neutral vs Shiek, but his advantage is about the same and his disadvantage is much better.

 

[DunnoBro]

A lot of people don't seem to understand sheik isn't that great at edgeguarding universally. She's good at capitalizing off a lost jump, and forcing low recoveries, but she isn't the greatest at actually pressuring those low recoveries. If it's a decently safe low recovery like Mario, Marth, or Roy, then there isn't much she can do if they have their jump for mix-ups and deeper returns. If they lost their jump, a needle snipe is pretty reliable but she has little guarantee to snipe jumps in many MUs.

Luigi, Villager, and of course Bayonetta are better examples of consistent edgeguarders.

 

[FeelMeUp]

A lot of people don't seem to understand sheik isn't that great at edgeguarding universally. She's good at capitalizing off a lost jump, and forcing low recoveries, but she isn't the greatest at actually pressuring those low recoveries. If it's a decently safe low recovery like Mario, Marth, or Roy, then there isn't much she can do if they have their jump for mix-ups and deeper returns. If they lost their jump, a needle snipe is pretty reliable but she has little guarantee to snipe jumps in many MUs.

Luigi, Villager, and of course Bayonetta are better examples of consistent edgeguarders.

This.
What Sheik is good at is pressuring characters that are forced to come back from a horizontal in order to safely recover() or others with some sort of gross flaw in their Up B that makes them susceptible to dying off random stray hits().
She's pretty horrible at harassing characters offstage and outright killing them unless there's some specific tech to do so (like infinite BF clipping DK/Corrin's heads during their Up B).

Also, about vs .
The matchup was hard until the Sheiks realized our normal optimized combos kill even without a solid finisher. Those standard 45 degree angle Back Air and Forward Air scenarios that are normally used to pressure most of the cast will outright kill Mac as well. So if at any point he gets touched by the wrong side of an aerial, he's at risk of dying. Even when saving his jump. Sour fair > Sour fair > Sweet fair > Sweet fair, for example, true combos and kills Mac around the early 20-30s.
Saddest part is that nowadays most of her combos occur so fluidly that Mac cannot Up B out of them because there's no gap to attack out of hitstun.
Pretty sucky situation for the character.
Shortly after the patch there was argument for it being roughly even but nowadays it is nowhere near that.

 

[Iridium]

KVOxTSB 2018 (120 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Shuton
2nd: Kome
3rd: Nishiya
4th: Masashi
5th: Raito
5th: HIKARU
7th: T
7th: shky
9th: Choco
9th: Komorikiri
9th: Abadango
9th: bt.yamato
13th: Zaki
13th: Huto
13th: Yuzu
13th: Towa

Still a good result for T. He got a win on both Kome and Choco (again). Zaki beat Mao's Cloud in pools, and Raito, like T, also beat Choco. Also, let's look at how far Nishiya managed to get this tourney. Kome also went on a tear of a losers run after losing to T early on in top 16.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

KVOxTSB 2018 (120 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Shuton
2nd: Kome
3rd: Nishiya
4th: Masashi
5th: Raito
5th: HIKARU
7th: T
7th: shky
9th: Choco
9th: Komorikiri
9th: Abadango
9th: bt.yamato
13th: Zaki
13th: Huto
13th: Yuzu
13th: Towa

Still a good result for T. He got a win on both Kome and Choco (again). Zaki beat Mao's Cloud in pools, and Raito, like T, also beat Choco. Also, let's look at how far Nishiya managed to get this tourney. Kome also went on a tear of a losers run after losing to T early on in top 16.

Ahhh, the Japanese and their mid tiers.

 

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♫ GOTTA ****POST! NIN-TEN-ZONE!!! ♫[/USER]

I do not know if Cloud is officially doing worse than he was at the time, despite MKLeo using Marth more and Tweek using Bayonetta more. MKLeo has won Switchfest with Cloud.

Talking about lower tiers who do well against , I looked at the top s' matchup charts, and a lot put as one of the harder to deal with among the low tiers. (sinnyboo242 even put it in 's favor!) The only 2 characters in low tier (E Tier and below on the official list) that any top considered to be even or losing are and (which Karna says is even).

I heard does well against . Jigglypuff does not win the match up, rather slightly looses it. Sheik has a more difficult time pressuring Jigglypuff, because Sheik does not do as well when fighting floaty characters.

A lot of people don't seem to understand sheik isn't that great at edgeguarding universally. She's good at capitalizing off a lost jump, and forcing low recoveries, but she isn't the greatest at actually pressuring those low recoveries. If it's a decently safe low recovery like Mario, Marth, or Roy, then there isn't much she can do if they have their jump for mix-ups and deeper returns. If they lost their jump, a needle snipe is pretty reliable but she has little guarantee to snipe jumps in many MUs.

Luigi, Villager, and of course Bayonetta are better examples of consistent edgeguarders.

You are correct, Sheik is not a true edge-guarder. I think Sheik relies more on racking up damage with forward air and then trying to kill rather than edge-guarding.


All right, I am gone again.

 

[Ordeaux26]

its been 2 hours since someone has posted on this thread lets fix that who is your favourite Bayonetta player

mine is tweek

 

[The_Bookworm]

its been 2 hours since someone has posted on this thread lets fix that who is your favourite Bayonetta player

mine is tweek

Mine is either Tweek or Captain Zack (aka the Phoenix1 Boys). Those two are the aggressive (though does sometimes switch to passive) with the characters. For example, Tweek's game ending combo on Captain Zack at game 3 of Battle for Vegas, and Zack's set ending combo on WaDi at Super Famicon 2017.

Btw, as Taternator continues his streak of getting high placings on MSMs, he recently got 5th at a very stacked one with Japanese stars (MSM 143) only losing against Abadango and Kameme, and taking a set off of Raito.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Mine is either Tweek or Captain Zack (aka the Phoenix1 Boys). Those two are the aggressive (though does sometimes switch to passive) with the characters. For example, Tweek's game ending combo on Captain Zack at game 3 of Battle for Vegas, and Zack's set ending combo on WaDi at Super Famicon 2017.

Btw, as Taternator continues his streak of getting high placings on MSMs, he recently got 5th at a very stacked one with Japanese stars (MSM 143) only losing against Abadango and Kameme, and taking a set off of Raito.

I agree but I have another question what do you think Bayonetta's biggest weakness is

probably how laggy most of her moves are

 

[Rizen]

its been 2 hours since someone has posted on this thread lets fix that who is your favourite Bayonetta player

mine is tweek

Salem. A he's not a ******bag and talks to lower level players, unlike some top players. B he understands the value of not rushing in. Because this he's beaten Elegant after Captain Zack lost to him, ESAM's pika and a big list of notable players. He may have dropped off a bit this year but is still top 10.

I agree but I have another question what do you think Bayonetta's biggest weakness is

probably how laggy most of her moves are

Neutral. Watch top players; their matches vs Bayo aren't massacres when they lose. It's often down to game 5 last stock. Top tiers like Diddy, Sheik and Fox out-neutral her hard. A solid ground game in neutral can be very hard for her to break.

SDI's good; it turns a death ladder into a "still screwed because holy **** you're above Bayo" disadvantage, which is a step up. Strong grab games work around WTi.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Neutral. Watch top players; their matches vs Bayo aren't massacres when they lose. It's often down to game 5 last stock. Top tiers like Diddy, Sheik and Fox out-neutral her hard. A solid ground game in neutral can be very hard for her to break.

that is probably one of her biggest weaknesses to

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

its been 2 hours since someone has posted on this thread lets fix that who is your favourite Bayonetta player

mine is tweek

Tweek is my favorite Bayo player, I just like his playstyle with the character.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Tweek is my favorite Bayo player, I just like his playstyle with the character.

And this couldn't possibly be biased in the slightest...

 

[Nu~]

Bayo’s “lag” (start up sure, but end lag where??) isn’t a real issue when her hitboxes are the size of a football field.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bayo’s “lag” (start up sure, but end lag where??) isn’t a real issue when her hitboxes are the size of a football field.

I kinda agree with this, but the real issue is her ground game being slow. Remember how Raito played against Tweek? That is the solid example of someone abusing her weaknesses on the ground.

Neutral. Watch top players; their matches vs Bayo aren't massacres when they lose. It's often down to game 5 last stock. Top tiers like Diddy, Sheik and Fox out-neutral her hard. A solid ground game in neutral can be very hard for her to break.

SDI's good; it turns a death ladder into a "still screwed because holy **** you're above Bayo" disadvantage, which is a step up. Strong grab games work around WTi.

These are some of her real weaknesses. Floaty characters are often difficult for Bayo to land a solid combo on, let alone a death combo.

 

[J0eyboi]

Luigi, Villager, and of course Bayonetta are better examples of consistent edgeguarders.

Speaking of Bayo and edgeguarding, I haven't really seen anyone SDI witch twist to escape her edgeguards. Is there some reason for that other than that it's unintuitive?

I agree but I have another question what do you think Bayonetta's biggest weakness is

probably how laggy most of her moves are

I don't know if it's her biggest one, but Bayo has a bad case of Marthritis.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Speaking of Bayo and edgeguarding, I haven't really seen anyone SDI witch twist to escape her edgeguards. Is there some reason for that other than that it's unintuitive?

Yes, I think so, actually. If you escape Witch Twist, yes, you're out, but now you're a lot closer to Bayo, which gives her more options. Now she can use fair or nair to send you further than a simple Side-B would (where Side-B is basically the only option with no SDI).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yes, I think so, actually. If you escape Witch Twist, yes, you're out, but now you're a lot closer to Bayo, which gives her more options. Now she can use fair or nair to send you further than a simple Side-B would (where Side-B is basically the only option with no SDI).

Practicing myself, I noticed that if you DI downwards and slightly at an angle towards Bayo when you she hits you from ABK, you could avoid a lot of followups, which includes Witch Twist. For Witch Twist, SDI is a factor, but DI'ing downwards and away from Bayo can put you in a position to DI the ABK easier (or even outright avoid the move depending on percent and character). She has other followups from that, but it is much less severe and Marthitis can ensue for her.