Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Routa]

Ike suffers from common problems within heavy characters with strong long ranged attacks and thous are bad faf (for example Bairs faf is 55 while Cloud's is 42) and lack of safety (it is funny how long legs ZSS and Bayo have safer moves than Ike).
Ike struggles against opponents that have better ground game and good burst options or have moves that make jumping a big no-no like Diddy's Banana.
Long time a go one person here said that Ike is perfect secondary for Mario. That was true back then. Sadly now that Bayo is out Ike isn't that good of a option anymore. He is still a good option against people who like to jump a lot. DA, Utilt and Jab are amazing at punishing unnecessary jumps. He might not counter characters but he does "counter" habits.
Is he a good character? Nope. You are better off with other grapplers like DK

 

[Rizen]

IIRC Ike can cancel jab into grab; is that accurate?

 

[The-Technique]

IIRC Ike can cancel jab into grab; is that accurate?

Jab 1 into grab isn't true but most people tend to shield after getting hit, so its a reliable mixup.

Ike suffers from common problems within heavy characters with strong long ranged attacks and thous are bad faf (for example Bairs faf is 55 while Cloud's is 42) and lack of safety (it is funny how long legs ZSS and Bayo have safer moves than Ike).
Ike struggles against opponents that have better ground game and good burst options or have moves that make jumping a big no-no like Diddy's Banana.

Eh, the usage of b-air by Clouds don't really benefit much from the lower FAF though. They typically space fastfall landing b-airs on opponents for corner pressure, its not a great rising aerial option otherwise. Also IMO I feel Diddy is one of Ike's more tolerable top tier matchups but its a little too much to go indepth on in this thread. (also feeling lazy)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Jab 1 into grab isn't true but most people tend to shield after getting hit, so its a reliable mixup.



Eh, the usage of b-air by Clouds don't really benefit much from the lower FAF though. They typically space fastfall landing b-airs on opponents for corner pressure, its not a great rising aerial option otherwise. Also IMO I feel Diddy is one of Ike's more tolerable top tier matchups but its a little too much to go indepth on in this thread. (also feeling lazy)

I saw that Ike can use his up B to cancel the banana peel altogether, shown in BSD's banana peel video. That doesn't particularly mean that he wins the matchup (although it may be according to ZeRo lol), but it definitely aids Ike in the Diddy matchup.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

So, uhhh....



Yeah, I’m talking about ESAM as a player. It may also be that Pika doesn’t have good answers for Mewtwo in general.

This actually leads into a bit of top player psychology:

The cause of the level of difficulty of a match-up varies greatly depending on level of play.

Low level players will find any MU that they are not familiar with as difficult, even if their character doesn't innately struggle. This can lead to an attribution error where these players believe that an MU is unfavorable to their character, rather than to them. This mostly happens when their knowledge of the game is limited and they don't know what they don't know. It can also be tough to admit that you suck because you are still learning the game. Tiers, as a thing, don't generally exist here for obvious reasons.

Mid to high level players generally have a broader MU knowledge base, and have gained the capability to understand why top level players may not struggle in an MU that they themselves have trouble in. Greater game understanding leads to the ability to analyze at a higher level and try to address gaps in individual play. Tiers can have some degree of relevance at this level.

At the top level, the idea is that you know any given MU extremely well and thus, finally, tier differences become more easily discernible. Individual performance can matter as well, but only in as much as a players skill compensates for tier gaps.

So how does this relate to ESAM?
I'll get there.

Some top players have a tendency to be cautious when attributing wins and losses to either character or skill. You can either attribute difficulty to the character, lack of specific knowledge, or player performance.

Given that top level players have spent thousands of hours with their characters, they are more likely to attribute difficulties to their character and will attempt to increase their skill to compensate. But in a non-team game with 56 characters, lack of knowledge is still a very real issue.

Okay, so?
Well, you see this cautiousness with say, Dabuz and Zero, who think their characters lose more MUs than most of us would think. Zero was notoriously pessimistic about Diddy, and Dabuz always tries to balance how good of a player he is when evaluating an MU. They are more likely to tie in character difficulties to losses rather than the reverse.

Oh, this is where it ties in.
Yeah, because ESAM is the opposite. He is more likely to attribute losses to himself, rather than the character. He truly believes Pika is top 10ish and this is reflected in his MU charts and general discourse. Rather than emphasizing weaknesses, he sees vast potential in the character that he hasn't brought to fruition yet. Which is why he sees Pika only really losing maybe two MUs, as of his tier list video series.

As much as he gets ragged on, I do admire how much of a lab monster he is, and how much he believes in his character. I do think he ends up carrying Pika more so than vice versa, but whatever.

I agree, ESAM is definitely really knowledgeable about how his character works. His matchup seems pretty well thought out as well due to his reasoning. He probably puts in hours upon hours in the lab figuring out potential new Pika tech, or useful snippets for different matchups.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Ike suffers from common problems within heavy characters with strong long ranged attacks and thous are bad faf (for example Bairs faf is 55 while Cloud's is 42) and lack of safety (it is funny how long legs ZSS and Bayo have safer moves than Ike).
Ike struggles against opponents that have better ground game and good burst options or have moves that make jumping a big no-no like Diddy's Banana.
Long time a go one person here said that Ike is perfect secondary for Mario. That was true back then. Sadly now that Bayo is out Ike isn't that good of a option anymore. He is still a good option against people who like to jump a lot. DA, Utilt and Jab are amazing at punishing unnecessary jumps. He might not counter characters but he does "counter" habits.
Is he a good character? Nope. You are better off with other grapplers like DK

Ike can only do so much unfortunately. Theres just way better options if you would want to play a swordie ( Corrin, Marth, cloud) are all better than Ike. Ryo still gets some results every now and then but still.

 

[Heracr055]

Isn't Ike perceived to have a good grab game?
I've fought some good Ikes and they can be terrifying to deal with thanks to a combination of baits, tomahawks and mixups that make them incredibly unpredictable

 

[JustCallMeJon]

The only (significant) thing komo's Roy have done is take a set off of Captain Zack. Levi is doing well in his region, but I feel like players like Ryo, San, and Soan are getting a bit more commendable results.

I could see that. Komo's Roy is actually good if not for constant SDs. Komo do use Roy at Umebura and Sumabatos and place very well in there. He dished out good amount of upsets in the typical Japan stacked regionals with using solo Roy.

Maybe I was wrong anyways about Roy because I haven't look too much on his results outside of Komo and Levi, he may have worse results than Ike...Maybe I change my mind and place Ike 41st or something. Still, I haven't learned too much on Roy or Ike's metagame recently but if Ike has better results recently, well props to the Ike meta.

Isn't Ike perceived to have a good grab game?
I've fought some good Ikes and they can be terrifying to deal with thanks to a combination of tomahawks and mixups that make them incredibly unpredictable. This, combined with Smash 5's announcement, caused me to pick up my own Ike, and I've been achieving good success with him.

Ike has a good grab game but has been relegated by his short grab range and low traction. He can compensate that by doing tomahawk and mixups.

Also good for you!

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I could see that. Komo's Roy is actually good if not for constant SDs. Komo do use Roy at Umebura and Sumabatos and place very well in there. He dished out good amount of upsets in the typical Japan stacked regionals with using solo Roy.

Maybe I was wrong anyways about Roy because I haven't look too much on his results outside of Komo and Levi, he may have worse results than Ike...Maybe I change my mind and place Ike 41st or something. Still, I haven't learned too much on Roy or Ike's metagame recently but if Ike has better results recently, well props to the Ike meta.



Ike has a good grab game but has been relegated by his short grab range and low traction. He can compensate that by doing tomahawk and mixups.

Also good for you!

Ike suffers heavily against camping and projectiles and his predictable recovery makes it easy to edgeguard him. The main reason Mario is considered one of his worst matchups is because he can easily gimp Aither with fludd or cape quick draw.

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Does ESAM not have a Sonic problem?

I had to look back, because I don’t remember him meeting a top Sonic recently, but yeah, it seems like he does. He’s beaten SGK in the recentish past, but has also had to switch off Pika against Manny and has lost to 6WX.

Again, this may just be a Pika issue rather than an Esam issue.

Ike suffers heavily against camping and projectiles and his predictable recovery makes it easy to edgeguard him. The main reason Mario is considered one of his worst matchups is because he can easily gimp Aither with fludd or cape quick draw.

Uh. Mario isn’t one of Ike’s worst MUs tho.

I think y’all are missing some stuff about Ike:

1.) his FAF is bad but his landing lag is good. Why? Because this man isn’t supposed to be in the air all the time. He’s supposed to be conditioning you to shield, then conditioning you to be afraid to shield. It’s why he gets some decent reward/kill options off of grab.

2.) He isn’t that vulnerable to camping. But he is vulnerable to characters that can get into his zone and beat out his CQC and then get him into a bad spot. Ike can approach and corner like a wall. It’s why Sonics have struggled with him.

But if you are Sheik or Fox, you don’t care about his game. Coincidentally, those are both not great. Especially Sheik.

3.) All his conditioning aerials are safe. Fair, Nair, and Bair are either slightly positive to -2 on drop, and given his generous range, you aren’t getting in without a fight. Unless you are Sheik. Or Fox.

4.) He loves to trap too, just like all the other FE characters. The difference is he gets some reward off of grabs. Too bad he doesn’t have that Brawl jab, man.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I had to look back, because I don’t remember him meeting a top Sonic recently, but yeah, it seems like he does. He’s beaten SGK in the recentish past, but has also had to switch off Pika against Manny and has lost to 6WX.

Again, this may just be a Pika issue rather than an Esam issue.

Game 5 vs Sonido, lost to Manny, lost to 6WX, lost to IxisNaugus twice...

 

[The-Technique]

Ike suffers heavily against camping and projectiles and his predictable recovery makes it easy to edgeguard him. The main reason Mario is considered one of his worst matchups is because he can easily gimp Aither with fludd or cape quick draw.

Mario isn't one of Ike's worst matchups, it's one of his more honest ones than anything. For whatever reason it's commonly seen as a terrible matchup so I don't blame you.

Some not so well known things about the matchup: Mario's throw combos are next to nonexistent at 0 to very early percents. Ike can SDI airdodge uthrow d-air to fall out of it and double jump airdodge d-throw after the first u-tilt. Basically the only ways for Mario to get decent damage early on are either by landing a raw utilt or falling uair into utilt in neutral. Or chipping away at Ike by winning smaller exchanges.

For whatever reason everyone pictures the matchup like Ike just sits there and dies while Mario does his thing, it is *hard* for Mario to get in. With regards to edgeguarding, you'll only be in danger of being gimped like that if you're using Quick Draw too early or recover too high with up B, otherwise you just drift toward the stage and catch the ledge with double jump while reactively airdodging whatever Mario throws at you. Of course it isn't *that* easy, Ike has to be very careful with how he recovers. But it also goes both ways, Ike can nuke Mario's recovery with Eruption, run off f-air, 2 frame d-air on the ledge, threaten ledge trump b-air, etc.

1.) his FAF is bad but his landing lag is good. Why? Because this man isn’t supposed to be in the air all the time. He’s supposed to be conditioning you to shield, then conditioning you to be afraid to shield. It’s why he gets some decent reward/kill options off of grab.

Yeah his landing lag is fairly lenient, and in addition to that his f-air and b-air both auto cancel from shorthop. There's some instances where you can frame trap airdodges into d-tilt or utilt, or even carry opponents across the stage with f-air.

Another fun fact: Ike's u-air has the same landing lag and shield safety as Cloud's u-air. In addition, the hitbox is *a lot* bigger than the visuals let on. Only downside is that the hitbox rotates in and out of the Z-axis.

 

[Minordeth]

Game 5 vs Sonido, lost to Manny, lost to 6WX, lost to IxisNaugus twice...

Ah, thanks for the info. I didn’t even know he had sets with Ixis. I’ll have to look back to see if Captain L or Rideae have had issues as well. But good to know.

Mario isn't one of Ike's worst matchups, it's one of his more honest ones than anything. For whatever reason it's commonly seen that way so I don't blame you.

Some not so well known things about the matchup: Mario's throw combos are next to nonexistent at 0 to very early percents. Ike can SDI uthrow d-air to fall out of it and double jump airdodge d-throw after the first u-tilt. Basically the only ways for Mario to get decent damage early on are either by landing a raw utilt or falling uair into utilt in neutral. Or chipping away at Ike by winning smaller exchanges.

For whatever reason everyone pictures the matchup like Ike just sits there and dies while Mario does his thing, it is *hard* for Mario to get in. With regards to edgeguarding, you'll only be in danger of being gimped like that if you're using Quick Draw too early or recover too high with up B, otherwise you just drift toward the stage and catch the ledge with double jump while reactively airdodging whatever Mario throws at you. Of course it isn't *that* easy, Ike has to be very careful with how he recovers. But it also goes both ways, Ike can nuke Mario's recovery with Eruption, run off f-air, 2 frame d-air on the ledge, threaten ledge trump b-air, etc.

Yeah, people forget that while Ike has to take some pretty extensive precautions off-stage, on the ledge he also nukes everyone. Sheik, Sonic, Bayo, doesn’t matter. If you are offstage versus Ike, you better be sweating. Eruption is kinda gross.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Ah, thanks for the info. I didn’t even know he had sets with Ixis. I’ll have to look back to see if Captain L or Rideae have had issues as well. But good to know.

The sets vs Ixis were at EVO btw.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mario isn't one of Ike's worst matchups, it's one of his more honest ones than anything. For whatever reason it's commonly seen as a terrible matchup so I don't blame you.

Some not so well known things about the matchup: Mario's throw combos are next to nonexistent at 0 to very early percents. Ike can SDI airdodge uthrow d-air to fall out of it and double jump airdodge d-throw after the first u-tilt. Basically the only ways for Mario to get decent damage early on are either by landing a raw utilt or falling uair into utilt in neutral. Or chipping away at Ike by winning smaller exchanges.

For whatever reason everyone pictures the matchup like Ike just sits there and dies while Mario does his thing, it is *hard* for Mario to get in. With regards to edgeguarding, you'll only be in danger of being gimped like that if you're using Quick Draw too early or recover too high with up B, otherwise you just drift toward the stage and catch the ledge with double jump while reactively airdodging whatever Mario throws at you. Of course it isn't *that* easy, Ike has to be very careful with how he recovers. But it also goes both ways, Ike can nuke Mario's recovery with Eruption, run off f-air, 2 frame d-air on the ledge, threaten ledge trump b-air, etc.



Yeah his landing lag is fairly lenient, and in addition to that his f-air and b-air both auto cancel from shorthop. There's some instances where you can frame trap airdodges into d-tilt or utilt, or even carry opponents across the stage with f-air.

Ike's edgeguarding is actually bonkers. Mario could combo Ike with up throw at 0 percent ranges (particularly into down air), but yes, the matchup is not as bad as many people has interpreted. Recovery in general (especially in this game) is a weakness you can exploit, but you must put them in that position in the first place. It is the main reason why Cloud's poor recovery doesn't offset him too much, and why he is ranked among the game's best. In contrast, Little Mac's recovery (other than it being the undisputed worst in the game) is translated with his poor air game, making it a serious issue for the boxer.

Btw, Captain Zack is going to Battle for Vegas. Considering his Midwest Mayhem run...

 

[MarioManTAW]

Just hit a major milestone in something I've been working on: PGR results for every character throughout 2017. This tracks highest character placings and all PGR wins throughout the v3 and v4 seasons. Just got through all the S/S+ tiers.
Notes:
-PGR wins include wins from both the active season and the previous season (i.e. v2/v3 wins during the v3 season and v3/v4 wins in the v4 season). Area 51 does not count.
-Asterisk (*) denotes a player who used other characters prominently during the tournament/set.
-Exclamation point [!] indicates a set played under controversial circumstances (i.e. 0.9)
-Only highest placing for each character is counted, unless they used other characters prominently, in which case, both the highest placer and the highest solo mainer will be included.
-Only placings that qualify for PGR count (i.e. top 64 for S-tiers)

Anyway, all characters' results at PGR S/S+ tiers:

Spoiler

 

[J0eyboi]

Recovery in general (especially in this game) is a weakness you can exploit, but you must put them in that position in the first place. It is the main reason why Cloud's poor recovery doesn't offset him too much, and why he is ranked among the game's best. In contrast, Little Mac's recovery (other than it being the undisputed worst in the game) is translated with his poor air game, making it a serious issue for the boxer.

Cloud's recovery really isn't that bad. His Up-B is rather exploitable, sure, but his good airspeed and double jump mean he doesn't always have to use it, and he has fast, massive aerials that he can afford to use while recovering, again due to his good double jump, that make him hard to edgeguard if your name isn't Shulk. You only need to hit him once most of the time to kill him, but getting that one hit isn't easy for most characters.

Compare to a bad recovery on a character whose recovery wasn't explicitly designed to be terrible, and you see what I mean. Roy has a lot of the same things Cloud does: his Up-B also goes nowhere and only hits in front of him, his airspeed is also great, and while he doesn't have Cloud's Nair, his upair could theoretically be used to similar effect. What makes it so much worse is his double jump and fall speed, which are among the lowest and highest in the game, respectively. His upair can't help him recover because using it offstage is almost always an SD. Hell, airdodging while trying to recover can very often kill you. Additionally, while Roy's Up-B can sweetspot ledge, unlike Cloud's, it's so slow it hardly matters. "You have to put them there in the first place" really isn't the issue; Mac and Roy are both low tier, and Shulk's ability to safely edgeguard Cloud is one of the bigger reasons that matchup is somewhere around even instead of +/-2.

As a side note, that is definitely not a proper use of the word "translated". I think you meant "compounded by".

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Ah, thanks for the info. I didn’t even know he had sets with Ixis. I’ll have to look back to see if Captain L or Rideae have had issues as well. But good to know.

Eruption is godlike for 2 framing opponents who are recovering low. Also its so damn satisfying to land.

 

[Minordeth]

Cloud's recovery really isn't that bad. His Up-B is rather exploitable, sure, but his good airspeed and double jump mean he doesn't always have to use it, and he has fast, massive aerials that he can afford to use while recovering, again due to his good double jump, that make him hard to edgeguard if your name isn't Shulk. You only need to hit him once most of the time to kill him, but getting that one hit isn't easy for most characters.

Compare to a bad recovery on a character whose recovery wasn't explicitly designed to be terrible, and you see what I mean. Roy has a lot of the same things Cloud does: his Up-B also goes nowhere and only hits in front of him, his airspeed is also great, and while he doesn't have Cloud's Nair, his upair could theoretically be used to similar effect. What makes it so much worse is his double jump and fall speed, which are among the lowest and highest in the game, respectively. His upair can't help him recover because using it offstage is almost always an SD. Hell, airdodging while trying to recover can very often kill you. Additionally, while Roy's Up-B can sweetspot ledge, unlike Cloud's, it's so slow it hardly matters. "You have to put them there in the first place" really isn't the issue; Mac and Roy are both low tier, and Shulk's ability to safely edgeguard Cloud is one of the bigger reasons that matchup is somewhere around even instead of +/-2.

As a side note, that is definitely not a proper use of the word "translated". I think you meant "compounded by".

You are correct about Roy’s double jump being not so hot, but Cloud’s isn’t either. Really, double jump and fall speed only explain part of the reasons why Cloud is so much harder to contest than Roy. To get two things out of the way:

1.) When you talk about Cloud, you can’t forget to take Limit Cloud into account as well.

2.) Roy’s fall speed is 1.8, which is indeed faster than Cloud’s 1.68, but less than Limit Cloud’s 1.848.

The obvious question is: so if Limit Cloud falls faster than Roy, and regular Cloud isn’t that much lighter, what else is happening?

Well, essentially it comes down to air acceleration and gravity.

Yeah, Roy’s air speed is better than Cloud’s at 1.24 to 1.1.

However, Cloud’s air acceleration is 0.7, which is somewhat better than Roy’s 0.5. Looking deeper, what makes life worse for Roy is that his air accel has an unusually low max additional value of 0.3, which means he gets very little from holding the stick to drift back to stage. Cloud’s is double that at 0.6, for comparison, so he gets to that 1.1 faster.

Now, compounding this is Cloud’s lower gravity at 0.098 compared to Roy’s 0.114, and even regular Cloud gets a better drift back to stage.

Limit Cloud basically flies.

His air speed increases to 1.32, by far the best in the game, while his air acceleration increases slightly to 0.72. Yeah, his weight jumps up, above Roy, but his gravity changes to .1078, which is almost the exact same as Ganon.... but still less than Roy.

Essentially, Roy isn’t just hampered by his double jump and fall speed, he’s actually screwed over because his air acceleration is trash and his gravity is high enough that it doesn’t let him drift at all.

 

[WiFi]

Where is Hyper? I haven't heard anything from him lately. Remember when he was the best Roy? Whatever happened to him? Roy's current best player, Komo, still kind of uses him as a pocket character.

 

[J0eyboi]

You are correct about Roy’s double jump being not so hot, but Cloud’s isn’t either. Really, double jump and fall speed only explain part of the reasons why Cloud is so much harder to contest than Roy. To get two things out of the way:

1.) When you talk about Cloud, you can’t forget to take Limit Cloud into account as well.

2.) Roy’s fall speed is 1.8, which is indeed faster than Cloud’s 1.68, but less than Limit Cloud’s 1.848.

The obvious question is: so if Limit Cloud falls faster than Roy, and regular Cloud isn’t that much lighter, what else is happening?

Well, essentially it comes down to air acceleration and gravity.

Yeah, Roy’s air speed is better than Cloud’s at 1.24 to 1.1.

However, Cloud’s air acceleration is 0.7, which is somewhat better than Roy’s 0.5. Looking deeper, what makes life worse for Roy is that his air accel has an unusually low max additional value of 0.3, which means he gets very little from holding the stick to drift back to stage. Cloud’s is double that at 0.6, for comparison, so he gets to that 1.1 faster.

Now, compounding this is Cloud’s lower gravity at 0.098 compared to Roy’s 0.114, and even regular Cloud gets a better drift back to stage.

Limit Cloud basically flies.

His air speed increases to 1.32, by far the best in the game, while his air acceleration increases slightly to 0.72. Yeah, his weight jumps up, above Roy, but his gravity changes to .1078, which is almost the exact same as Ganon.... but still less than Roy.

Essentially, Roy isn’t just hampered by his double jump and fall speed, he’s actually screwed over because his air acceleration is trash and his gravity is high enough that it doesn’t let him drift at all.

Huh. I knew Roy's terrible air accel hurt his recovery, but I forgot to mention it, and I completely failed to consider gravity, which is part of what makes Roy's double jump so horrible as well, and wasn't aware Limit Cloud's fall speed was that high. Oops.

 

[Minordeth]

Where is Hyper? I haven't heard anything from him lately. Remember when he was the best Roy? Whatever happened to him? Roy's current best player, Komo, still kind of uses him as a pocket character.

Hyper is semi-retired. He still plays occasionally, and is #5 on the Georgia PR, but he is focusing on graduating. His last major was Dreamhack ATL and I don’t see him staying prevalent in the national scene given his focus and the fact he’s still in high school.

Huh. I knew Roy's air accel was terrible, but I forgot to mention it, and I completely failed to consider gravity, which is the other part of what makes Roy's double jump so horrible, and wasn't aware Limit Cloud's fall speed was that high. Oops.

No worries. I’ve been wanting to post about Cloud’s flying ability for a while.

Anyway, Roy is in a weird spot. I feel like he is bizarro world Ryu, where his meta has been so focused on Twitch-ready combos that his neutral is underdeveloped. He is one of the few characters with two pokes that are safe on shield.

His dtilt is +1 on shield drop. It’s actually disgusting. And he has the discount version of Dancing Blade and reward off grab and cake money dash dancing.

This man has an actual ground game in a game with like, maybe three or four actual ground games.




I feel he has viability somewhere in there. Come on, someone. Show me a deliberate, tactical Roy that baits and conditions with that stupid, stupid dtilt.

Can you imagine if it had a Mewtwo Dtilt-esque angle? Oh my goooooooood

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think Hyper still plays, he may just be stuck in his region.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This man has an actual ground game in a game with like, maybe three or four actual ground games.




I feel he has viability somewhere in there. Come on, someone. Show me a deliberate, tactical Roy that baits and conditions with that stupid, stupid dtilt.

Can you imagine if it had a Mewtwo Dtilt-esque angle? Oh my goooooooood

If only his sword goes along with it, then he may actually be a threat in tournaments. Roy's down tilt doesn't cover a lot of range.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Hyper is semi-retired. He still plays occasionally, and is #5 on the Georgia PR, but he is focusing on graduating. His last major was Dreamhack ATL and I don’t see him staying prevalent in the national scene given his focus and the fact he’s still in high school.



No worries. I’ve been wanting to post about Cloud’s flying ability for a while.

Anyway, Roy is in a weird spot. I feel like he is bizarro world Ryu, where his meta has been so focused on Twitch-ready combos that his neutral is underdeveloped. He is one of the few characters with two pokes that are safe on shield.

His dtilt is +1 on shield drop. It’s actually disgusting. And he has the discount version of Dancing Blade and reward off grab and cake money dash dancing.

This man has an actual ground game in a game with like, maybe three or four actual ground games.




I feel he has viability somewhere in there. Come on, someone. Show me a deliberate, tactical Roy that baits and conditions with that stupid, stupid dtilt.

Can you imagine if it had a Mewtwo Dtilt-esque angle? Oh my goooooooood

Hyper is really underrated, but he has some of the best results of any Roy.

 

[Minordeth]

If only his sword goes along with it, then he may actually be a threat in tournaments. Roy's down tilt doesn't cover a lot of range.

Roy, with his dumb reverse tippers, can absolutely work.

I feel the range part is a misconception. His dtilt has just barely less than Marth’s dtilt, actually, and is longer range than Bayo’s dtilt, for comparison. The problem is that the strong hitbox is proximal to his hand. But even then, the sour spot is -2 on shield drop.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Roy, with his dumb reverse tippers, can absolutely work.

I feel the range part is a misconception. His dtilt has just barely less than Marth’s dtilt, actually, and is longer range than Bayo’s dtilt, for comparison. The problem is that the strong hitbox is proximal to his hand. But even then, the sour spot is -2 on shield drop.

Due to possessing his speed and a disjoint, it would normally not be too big of an issue. However, his sword size is surprisingly underwhelming (as it actually shrunk slightly from Melee, despite him now standing at Marth's height). This exacerbates the issue on being forced staying close. It doesn't help from the fact that the Melee mechanics that gave him an above average approach in Melee are gone in this game, which would have been great considering that his run speed increased in the transition.

When he does eventually find an approach opening he has to be careful, for if he messes up or the opponent anticipated it, he could receive large punishment due to his status as a fast faller.

I do agree with Roy's current placement at 42nd. I do understand why some players see him as underrated, but I want to shed some light on why Roy's tools aren't working as well together in the current metagame.

 

[Minordeth]

Due to possessing his speed and a disjoint, it would normally not be too big of an issue. However, his sword size is surprisingly underwhelming (as it actually shrunk slightly from Melee, despite him now standing at Marth's height). This exacerbates the issue on being forced staying close. It doesn't help from the fact that the Melee mechanics that gave him an above average approach in Melee are gone in this game, which would have been great considering that his run speed increased in the transition.

When he does eventually find an approach opening he has to be careful, for if he messes up or the opponent anticipated it, he could receive large punishment due to his status as a fast faller.

I do agree with Roy's current placement at 42nd. I do understand why some players see him as underrated, but I want to shed some light on why Roy's tools aren't working as well together in the current metagame.

Like yeah, the fundamental concept of Roy is silly, but they at least tried to compensate with his Smash 4 design.

You’re going to have to define “underwhelming,” though. His range on all his comparable aerials are around the same reach as Marcina’s. His Nair actually has larger hitboxes than Marcina’s as well - it outranges Cloud’s, for instance. His hitbox 1 and 2s are consistently large (and larger than Marcina’s) across the board, presumably to compensate for his need to get close.

As for his approach, I mean, few characters have decent approaches in this game. Roy should be staying on the ground, regardless, as he commits more than Marcina in the air, although his Nair is pretty fab.

As for where he is on the tier list, I don’t care too much. He’s largely irrelevant to the meta currently, which is why I was lamenting his lack of anything, given some of his stupid tools.

 

[J0eyboi]

So apparently, I've been calculating everything wrong. I thought the shield drop animation was 4 frames, not 7. Oops.

Anyway,

Due to possessing his speed and a disjoint, it would normally not be too big of an issue. However, his sword size is surprisingly underwhelming (as it actually shrunk slightly from Melee, despite him now standing at Marth's height). This exacerbates the issue on being forced staying close. It doesn't help from the fact that the Melee mechanics that gave him an above average approach in Melee are gone in this game, which would have been great considering that his run speed increased in the transition.

When he does eventually find an approach opening he has to be careful, for if he messes up or the opponent anticipated it, he could receive large punishment due to his status as a fast faller.

First of all, you replied to a post explaining that Roy's dtilt has more range than Bayo's by saying Roy's sword is tiny. (Also, Roy's sword is actually only slightly shorter than Marth's, his lack of range comes from his reverse grip, which is a terrible way to hold a sword irl. This can best be seen in his Nair and bair, both of which are very similar in size to Marth's, and both of which have Roy holding his sword in a way that isn't stupid)

Second of all, dashdancing and wavedashing are gone, yes, but Roy has a really good extended dash dance, and he could theoretically approach with foxtrot perfect pivot turnaround dtilt or something, though that's a bit slow (it may actually be faster to just run up shieldstop dtilt) and a lot technically demanding. Even without that, though, his Nair is safe when spaced outside shield grab range (Sweetspot is +2 on drop at best, sourspot is 0) and he has marginally worse dancing blade for a side-B. Roy has ways to approach.

Roy's reverse grip annoys me so much, because it's not only a terrible way to use a sword, it's not even the way he uses swords in the game which he is from. C'mon Sakurai.

 

[Rizen]

Technique covered anything I'd say about Ike. His jab and Dtilt make up for poor startup on other ground moves. I talked about how characters don't need all around good frame data but merely a few quick moves to cover each area in another post. Ike has those.
In the air his lack of a fast gtfo Nair sucks and Bair doesn't cover his recoveries after a launch, unless it's that weird backwards throw Wario does.
Ike's not a good character but he, G&W and Wario should not be ranked a tier under Link as they are now.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Roy's reverse grip annoys me so much, because it's not only a terrible way to use a sword, it's not even the way he uses swords in the game which he is from. C'mon Sakurai.

FYI Roy was in Melee before his own game, so... (May have been a similar situation to Greninja where moves were largely improvised due to lack of official source material)

 

[J0eyboi]

FYI Roy was in Melee before his own game, so... (May have been a similar situation to Greninja where moves were largely improvised due to lack of official source material)

I'm aware, but A) Binding Blade was in development for 2 to 5 years, and though exactly when Roy was designed and animated is unclear, they must've had at least some of his animations and design done or the fire motif Roy has would be stupid and make no sense, B) they have to make up most of most movesets, especially Fire Emblem characters and Pokemon, who tend to have little source material, and C) Melee Roy doesn't hold his sword in reverse grip. That was new to Smash 4. Almost all of his animations were basically identical to Marth's in Melee. This is a new thing, and it's stupid.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I'm aware, but A) Binding Blade was in development for 2 to 5 years, and though exactly when Roy was designed and animated is unclear, they must've had at least some of his animations and design done or the fire motif Roy has would be stupid and make no sense, B) they have to make up most of most movesets, especially Fire Emblem characters and Pokemon, who tend to have little source material, and C) Melee Roy doesn't hold his sword in reverse grip. That was new to Smash 4. Almost all of his animations were basically identical to Marth's in Melee. This is a new thing, and it's stupid.

I personally don't see it as dumb for 2 reasons: 1) It further differentiates him from Marth and 2) The few attacks that have that grip(Blazer and jab), they work with his 'in your face' mechanic.

Where is Hyper? I haven't heard anything from him lately. Remember when he was the best Roy? Whatever happened to him? Roy's current best player, Komo, still kind of uses him as a pocket character.

I only have faith on Levi and TheFlow because I personally don't see Komo putting more effort into a character that will only see occasional use.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm a fan of the reverse grip and am enjoying this conversation. The most I have seen of Hyper is when he bodies KodyStri. I'm not for sure if he is the best Roy, I've just heard him talked about a ton when people bring up Roy, plus his playstyle brings a crowd. Hyper is pretty much the only Roy I watch.

 

[Minordeth]

Dabuz vs Light Grand Finals at House of 3000, btw.

So, Light is getting better rapidly. He is honestly the fastest Fox I have seen so far, in terms of his general movement. He abused Bair when he had Dabuz in the corner and did a fantastic job getting rid of Luma. Like, that pressure was unreal.

Unfortunately, both he and Dabuz were playing a bit sloppily. On Light's side, we had tons of badly spaced and impulsive Fox illusions, missed techs, missed two frames, going offstage for no reason, amidst other issues. On Dabuz's, we had missed edge guards, poorly timed F-smashes, weird missed juggles, and he apparently forgot that he can C-walk Luma.

Even with the flubs, I've had two take-aways solidify over the past few weeks.

1.) If Light continues on his current trajectory, he will end up being the best Fox. Larry still has a semi-recent massive win over Dabuz, ESAM, and Mistake at Dreamhack MTL, but Light is catching up quickly.

2.) Dabuz, free from school, is turning into a monster. I'm intrigued to see what he can do against Nairo, Larry, and Tweek.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Dabuz vs Light Grand Finals at House of 3000, btw.

So, Light is getting better rapidly. He is honestly the fastest Fox I have seen so far, in terms of his general movement. He abused Bair when he had Dabuz in the corner and did a fantastic job getting rid of Luma. Like, that pressure was unreal.

Unfortunately, both he and Dabuz were playing a bit sloppily. On Light's side, we had tons of badly spaced and impulsive Fox illusions, missed techs, missed two frames, going offstage for no reason, amidst other issues. On Dabuz's, we had missed edge guards, poorly timed F-smashes, weird missed juggles, and he apparently forgot that he can C-walk Luma.

Even with the flubs, I've had two take-aways solidify over the past few weeks.

1.) If Light continues on his current trajectory, he will end up being the best Fox. Larry still has a semi-recent massive win over Dabuz, ESAM, and Mistake at Dreamhack MTL, but Light is catching up quickly.

2.) Dabuz, free from school, is turning into a monster. I'm intrigued to see what he can do against Nairo, Larry, and Tweek.

Light is really improving his gameplay and figuring out new things with Fox. While Larry is still the best when it comes to results, Light is closing the gap.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Light is really improving his gameplay and figuring out new things with Fox. While Larry is still the best when it comes to results, Light is closing the gap.

Larry is still going to be the best Fox player of all time. That is what happens when you are living like Larry (with a side of Fox honesty XD).

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Larry is still going to be the best Fox player of all time. That is what happens when you are living like Larry (with a side of Fox honesty XD).

True, but the other Fox players are also doing pretty well in terms of results too. But yeah, Larry is and always will be the best.

 

[The_Bookworm]

True, but the other Fox players are also doing pretty well in terms of results too. But yeah, Larry is and always will be the best.

Very true.

Btw, what B and A tier events are you guys anticipating this season? We will have future installments of the Smash Masters League (SML), GOML 2018, MomoCon 2018, Smash N Splash 4, and 2GG: Sheik Invasi- err I mean Hyrule Saga.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I am pretty disappointed that Smash Masters League at Vegas was very much overlooked from the Smash Community. The prize pot is huge, with $25,000 waiting to be rewarded. However, less than 100 people have signed up to compete Smash Masters League and it has one week before the tournament is going to start. That tournament needs to have more entrants because that prize pot definetly means something.

Smash Masters League at Vegas needs to advertise their tournament to the wide public.