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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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How about this:

Witch Time is selectively "broken" (*pick a meaning that is least offensive to you)
Witch Twist is her bread and butter move; most used and/or most dynamic, a linchpin within her general game plans.

The best, in your opinion, comes down to philosophy.
But realistically - broken moves are broken, which tends to put them on a higher plane of existence to even some god-like tools.

If she lost her bread and butter, she would still have a 'broken' move. She'd have to work harder, it would lead to more inconsistency.
If she lost her 'broken' move, there wouldn't be as much of an argument for her being 'broken'.
</supertautologybrothers>
 
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Baby_Sneak

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How about this:

Witch Time is "broken" (*pick a meaning that is least offensive to you)
Witch Twist is her bread and butter move; most used and most dynamic, a key stone within her play patterns.

The best, in your opinion, comes down to philosophy.
But realistically - broken moves are broken, which tends to put them on a higher plane of existence.

If she lost her bread and butter, she would still have a 'broken' move. She'd have to work harder, it would lead to more inconsistency.
If she lost her 'broken' move, there wouldn't be as much of an argument for her being 'broken'.
It’s more like, it’s nigh impossible to claim which is better because they’re so intertwined.

Bayo with no witch twist means anytime she gets witch Time, she’s unable to do ANY sort of ladder combos. At all. Without that threat, what else does she have besides ledge Jank? The threat is diminished severely, and the fear factor is hit very badly.

Bayo with no witch time feels more fair, but it’s not. You can’t really punish that move unless you’re underneath her.


Go to 0:49 and see Nairo get caught. Jumpsquat and bair total frame data aside, that window of opportunity was as small as a dime.

Witch twist is nearly 50/50 a movment option and an attack, thanks to the branching paths she can take whenever she does it.

It’s like a burst movement option made safe by a wall of hit boxes, that leads into other burst movement.

But tbh, you can’t pick out which is better.
 

FeelMeUp

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she can still back air/uair 3-4x for massive damage on a witch time lmfao
witch twist jank is the excessive cherry on top
 
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Nathan Richardson

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I'm just going to list some of the things that I find are important when it comes to having a decent chance of winning.
1. Decent all-around movement. This includes burst movement, aerial movement, ground movement etc. Being able to turn on a dime and keep up with your opponent helps win a fight (it isn't the only factor obviously.)
2. Decent kill moves with easy setups. Having a plethora of kill moves is fine and dandy but if you have to rely on a read then you'll have a hard time getting it.
3. Safe, versatile moves that can be used both offensively and defensively. Versatility is key to being unpredictable, a predictable fighter is a beaten fighter.

Note how I said 'factors' and 'what I noticed'. For all I know this could be a load of bull, but it also makes sense right?
 

BunbUn129

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Oct 20, 2015
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Abu Dhabi, UAE
I won't take any sides on the whole Bayonetta issue, mainly because I have very little experience playing vs her (out of the UAE's top 15 there is one Bayonetta). But I find it interesting from a game perspective. @Nobie linked that article with the comparison between Bayonetta and Melee Fox, but I think it's less to do with those two characters themselves and more with the designs of their respective games. I don't want to open up a Melee vs Smash 4: Which is better? kind of discussion to add to the drama that we already have, I'll just try to be as objective as I can with my observations.

Someone pointed out that despite Bayonetta's popularity and presence, in-depth guides on how to defeat her are relatively sparse. I don't blame whining players for whining and not trying to adapt, because there's no denying that it goes back to this game's engine: Smash 4 is, from a tech skill standpoint, very shallow. That doesn't mean the game is worse than Melee: the two have very different design philosophies behind them, and both have their pros and cons. Melee offers such a vast array of movement and combo options, and while this probably makes it superior from a spectator standpoint, a price has to be paid: it's unforgiving. Personally I could not get into the game after multiple attempts, and I think the same holds true for a lot of low-level S4 players like me. Smash 4's design gives it an advantage (in one way) from a gameplay perspective, in that it promotes a greater focus on neutral and mind-games, since you don't need to spend as much time mastering complex inputs. The drawback here is it is not as entertaining to watch unless you have a deep understanding of the interactions going on. And the more limited design tech-wise means that is much more difficult to develop counterplay to dominant options.

With great options comes great responsibility--in a perfect world. Melee Fox has great options and is objectively the best character in the game, but it should be no secret that there is only one thing putting a cap on his potential: human limitations. I'll put it like this: Fox can beat everyone and everyone including Roy can beat Fox. But Bayonetta? The great options are there but I can't seem to find that "responsibility". But, hey, I won't dwell on this because there is nothing new to say about Bayonetta herself. I can't imagine a world where Melee Fox had a lower learning curve...oh wait, that did happen at one point. It was called PM Fox until they realized what a terrible mistake that was.

The effects of Melee's and Smash 4's differing game designs can be seen in their meta evolutions over the years. Melee had no patches (ignore the PAL version) yet there were some significant character shifts over the years: Sheik being #1 for many years before Fox usurped the throne, Ken totally changing perceptions towards Marth, Jigglypuff rising to the top-tier, and more recently Yoshi's rise thanks to amsa. Meanwhile, the vast majority of character developments in S4 can be contributed to patches: Meta Knight rising from low- to top-tier then falling to high-tier, Diddy going from best character to 9th on the first tier list, Marth and Mewtwo rising to top-tier, etc. There are a few exceptions, like Luigi rising back to relative prominence despite not receiving any changes after his last nerf, Megaman's surge in 2016, and Bayonetta (!!) falling off a bit after her 1.1.6 nerfs and then regaining ground some time later.

AFAIK, Brawl didn't see any notable decline until at least 2 years after release. It's fair to assume that despite such obvious problems as MK and Dedede chaingrabs being apparent from the get-go, the game still had novelty in that it was new and that maybe something would alter the course of the metagame. That never really happened as Brawl's meta stagnated and the few major shifts only made things worse (looking at you IC's). Sakurai has said in the past that S4 was designed to sit on the fence between Brawl and Melee, but that was just a marketing ploy to get disenchanted players to buy it; in reality, I'm sure we all know it's far closer to Brawl. And that makes for a sad reality, as by inheriting Brawl's DNA, S4 inherits its problems, which is only now apparent: until mid-2016 patches were always shaking things up, but with the meta all settled that novelty is gone. It's been 1.7 or so years since patches ended and it's safe to say S4 is now going through the same meta phases as Brawl. Only time will tell, though.

Melee's design gives a higher bar to entry, but those who make it through will stay with it longer. S4 is easier to play but I don't think it can keep your attention for as long. Which is better, overall? That depends on your perspective. In the second case, by the time a game is withering away, a new one is already in the making, and will grab the attention of many who left; if you're Nintendo, this is the better option. It's more profitable to make a new game than to support the scene of an existing one, considering most of the buyers are casuals. It's like planned obsolescence only maybe without the "planned". But as a gamer, whichever you prefer varies.

In conclusion, I don't care whether or not she is banned. I don't agree with either side because I believe that either way interest in the game is declining due to its core design flaws. Bayonetta may just be accelerating that decline. And I imagine banning her would lead to a small to moderate surge in entry and viewership numbers for a brief period, before that decline continues.
 
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The_Bookworm

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I think there are two reasons Bayo hasn’t seen a consistent uptick in switches like Brawl MK had. The main reason is playability.

By “playability” I mean that intuitive feeling for how accessible a character is for the general user base. How that character moves around, how their options feel in conjunction with that movement, etc.

Every character is designed to have a minimum level of playability, or else no one would use the the character your team spent months making. However, it exists on a spectrum. Characters like Cloud and Mario were explicitly designed to feel accessible and fun. Their playability is high. Rosa would inhabit the other side of the spectrum.

I remember when Bayo was released, and some common reactions from players were that she felt “awkward” or “slow.” This sense of how she handled carried through the first year and probably inhibited her adoption despite her strengths.

- A prime example: Zero said that he ultimately didn’t enjoy playing her, which contributed to his lack of motivation to switch.

She seemed designed to be more of a niche character that would resonate with some, and not so much with others.

Which leads to the second reason:
Top players could still win consistently without her.

Cloud ended up becoming something like Brawl MK because Cloud is extremely powerful and his playability is high.

Switching to Bayo to win wasn’t seen as necessary. Zero, at retirement, still had about an 80% win rate against the top players in the world. Nairo, Leo, and Dabuz were up in the 70% range on par with Salem, the best Bayo.

Some players have dabbled in Bayo, Tweek being the main one. Dabuz most recently, but the success is somewhat mixed.

But really, the reason pocket Clouds were so persistent rather than Bayo was down to those two factors. Cloud is just more playable.

As a personal note, I find Brawl MK way more fun to play than Bayo. I still find her awkward as hell to use.

Having a mass top player immigration to Bayo would have to overcome the fact that she just doesn’t feel good to use to a lot of players. And ultimately, if you don’t like playing your character, your motivation to lab and get better with them would be hard to summon.
This is why while Bayo takes less skill to utilize her most powerful moves, but has a high learning curve nevertheless. Cloud has a low learning curve like Mario and Lucina, which is why he is arguably more popular than Bayonetta.

The only way to break out of the stasis would be to Throw the opponent.
Oh yeah, to be honest, I feel like a god when I chaingrab people as Icies, and their frustration makes me happy. I think I was the only Icies player who chaingrabbed for fun and not out of necessity. Also, being an Icies player, I couldn't get chaingrabbed either. Smash for Switch needs to happen soon, preferably the same way they did it with Pokken Tournament DX. A few more characters, and balance changes.
Personally, I would love to see a Lucas revamp like what they did in Project M.
 
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blackghost

Smash Champion
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Once again this thread isnt taking the full picture into consideration. Witch twist is by far bayo best move properties for edge guarding, oos, huge hit box, and the literal back bone of her combo tree. Bayo players dont die from bad witch twists they die for bad witch times.

This isnt even a question. Removing witch twist turns her into a slow run away character. She already can struggle to secure kills when opponents live to extreme percents. And is reduced to bair fishing.

Lastly i fully expect bayonetta to get banned. I dont support it. I think its dumb and wont change the games projected lifespan (that would be the top players and community leaders to blame) but im done pretending this community is something different than what i have experienced.
 
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|RK|

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Once again this thread isnt taking the full picture into consideration. Witch twist is by far bayo best move properties for edge guarding, oos, huge hit box, and the literal back bone of her combo tree. Bayo players dont die from bad witch twists they die for bad witch times.

This isnt even a question. Removing witch twist turns her into a slow run away character. She already can struggle to secure kills when opponents live to extreme percents. And is reduced to bair fishing.

Lastly i fully expect bayonetta to get banned. I dont support it. I think its dumb and wont change the games projected lifespan (that would be the top players and community leaders to blame) but im done pretending this community is something different than what i have experienced.
Again, people are completely missing why Witch Time is good. Without Witch Time, Nairo throws moves all over Bayo, especially zair and nair. Without Witch Time, Sheik rushes Bayo down and keeps her in disadvantage forever. Without Witch Time, Fox simply juggles her until she dies.

Everyone speaking about how good Witch Twist is are primarily talking about its punish applications. "OOS, edgeguard, combo tree." Ike stands a greater chance without Witch Time because he can actually swing.

Witch Twist is VERY good. But Witch Time literally enhances all of her neutral tools, all of her escape tools, and even her advantage tools as CaptainZack and mistake have shown.

Consistently forcing your opponent to limit themselves in neutral is stronger than a pure punish option. You naturally can't take Witch Twist from her as it's integral to her design (it's literally her recovery move). But you could give her some other death combo off of dtilt/grab instead and see much of the same issues.

But, I digress. I don't actually forsee a Bayonetta ban yet. Our community is incredibly reactionary. As long as EVO Japan and Frostbite gatekeep the Bayonetta players, people won't say a word.
 

theMichael

Smash Rookie
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Aug 18, 2015
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I don't understand why this conversation is even happening now. Because a Bayo got second at the most recent major? Seems silly when the character is not consistently winning. I think this is a conversation that should be tabled until the end of the PGR season.
 

sleepy_Nex

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|RK| |RK|
I Play Palu and Ike and while witchtime is annoying in the Ike vs bayo mu it's by no means THE move that dictates the mu. Ike has problems with campy Bayos like Salem playstyle because she has just so many options to shut down a ike that tries to approach but bayos that go in head first get met with a solid combogame out of grab to combat witchtime and a fair that outranges their **** in the air and even then a campy bayo is still not as bad as a sheik.
 

WiFi

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Again, people are completely missing why Witch Time is good. Without Witch Time, Nairo throws moves all over Bayo, especially zair and nair. Without Witch Time, Sheik rushes Bayo down and keeps her in disadvantage forever. Without Witch Time, Fox simply juggles her until she dies.

Everyone speaking about how good Witch Twist is are primarily talking about its punish applications. "OOS, edgeguard, combo tree." Ike stands a greater chance without Witch Time because he can actually swing.

Witch Twist is VERY good. But Witch Time literally enhances all of her neutral tools, all of her escape tools, and even her advantage tools as CaptainZack and mistake have shown.

Consistently forcing your opponent to limit themselves in neutral is stronger than a pure punish option. You naturally can't take Witch Twist from her as it's integral to her design (it's literally her recovery move). But you could give her some other death combo off of dtilt/grab instead and see much of the same issues.

But, I digress. I don't actually forsee a Bayonetta ban yet. Our community is incredibly reactionary. As long as EVO Japan and Frostbite gatekeep the Bayonetta players, people won't say a word.
I agree with this stand point, Bayonetta's Witch Time is a far more psychologically effective move than Witch Twist. People aren't afraid of Witch Twist because Bayos use it all the time. A rare, unpredictable move that can end your stock or at the very least deal 50+% is far scarier to face. Without Wtich Time, I can see Bayonetta losing to a lot of characters that out-neutral her. Cloud would also destroy Bayonetta if she didn't have Witch Time, as Cloud's moves are far more disjointed.
 
D

Deleted member

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I don't understand why this conversation is even happening now. Because a Bayo got second at the most recent major? Seems silly when the character is not consistently winning. I think this is a conversation that should be tabled until the end of the PGR season.
But the thing is, her places are very consistently good. She also has arguably really good tools for a character, and people are complaining about her. We need to protect Bayonetta from getting any bans or any bans on her moves.
 

|RK|

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|RK| |RK|
I Play Palu and Ike and while witchtime is annoying in the Ike vs bayo mu it's by no means THE move that dictates the mu. Ike has problems with campy Bayos like Salem playstyle because she has just so many options to shut down a ike that tries to approach but bayos that go in head first get met with a solid combogame out of grab to combat witchtime and a fair that outranges their **** in the air and even then a campy bayo is still not as bad as a sheik.
For sure - I think it should be clarified that Witch Time doesn't even have to be pressed. It never *seems* like a huge issue, because it's never actually MU defining.

The thing is... it affects people all the same. Watching Ryo on stream this past weekend was a great example. He activated a couple Witch Times, but if you're a better player, you can typically counter it by prediction, timing changes, etc. As Ryo got used to the playstyle of the Bayo, he did better and better. But that's literally everyone vs Bayo.

The issue is that it still weakens your neutral because... what if they read your swing? Now you're trying to grab more. Now your giant range is effectively irrelevant.

But what if there is no Witch Time? You can hit her shield pretty freely now. You can challenge her attacks without second-guessing anything. You can mix up your pressure, so on.

Witch Time is a lot of psychological pressure. If you've ever lost a set because a Bayo was at 140% while you were at 20%, it kinda sticks with you. Yeah, you learn to SDI better. But you also give extra attention to how you're approaching/what you're punishing. And that's the trick.
 

WiFi

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Have any top Bayonettas released matchup charts recently? It would be interesting to see what her matchups look like. Tbh, matchup charts are far more practical than tier lists, in terms of seeing how characters do against each other. Also, what do you guys think about Pikachu's place on the tier list? Pikachu doesn't have that much representation other than ESAM at the top levels of play. I know the is Ridae and Captain L as well, but ESAM seems to carry the character. We also might see Pikachu rise on the tier list by next season, due to Mario and Ness not doing as well as they used to at tournaments. Pikachu is extremely good when mastered, but the only person I see with mastery of Pikachu is ESAM. It does help to have good matchups with Bayonetta and Cloud though. As someone who plays Bayonetta a lot, Pikachu is definitely the hardest character to combo out of the entire cast. Also, the matchup Pikachu has with Cloud is dead even, as both characters can do very well against each other. Cloud can exploit Pika's lack of range, but if Pikachu get's in, not only is Cloud combo meat, but Pikachu is one of the easiest characters to gimp with.

Edit: I would say that matches should be three stock, but nobody wants to watch a campy Bayo or Sonic for 20+ minutes, even though it would help the person fighting the Bayo get a better read on the Bayo's playstyle. Ryo was obviously getting better at the Bayo matchup as he was going, but 3-stocks would have helped him so much.
 
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Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
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And we have yet to talk about desyncs.

ICs, in every form of smash they appeared in, took a lot of mechanical skill to work with.
In Melee, nonetheless, Ice Climbers don't have to rely on Wobbling. They have dthrow desync variations, although the execution is considerably more difficult.

Fly Amanita used to do pretty cool stuff. Even if you did ban Wobbling, which you shouldn't, Ice Climbers have other chaingrabs. I think in the earlier stages of Melee, some tournaments banned it. So Ice Climbers had to find ways around it.

Anyway, sorry for the constant Melee chatter. Great game. You guys should play it. :bluejump:

No but really, please play Smash 64 it's lowkey the best one.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Again, people are completely missing why Witch Time is good. Without Witch Time, Nairo throws moves all over Bayo, especially zair and nair. Without Witch Time, Sheik rushes Bayo down and keeps her in disadvantage forever. Without Witch Time, Fox simply juggles her until she dies.

Everyone speaking about how good Witch Twist is are primarily talking about its punish applications. "OOS, edgeguard, combo tree." Ike stands a greater chance without Witch Time because he can actually swing.

Witch Twist is VERY good. But Witch Time literally enhances all of her neutral tools, all of her escape tools, and even her advantage tools as CaptainZack and mistake have shown.

Consistently forcing your opponent to limit themselves in neutral is stronger than a pure punish option. You naturally can't take Witch Twist from her as it's integral to her design (it's literally her recovery move). But you could give her some other death combo off of dtilt/grab instead and see much of the same issues.

But, I digress. I don't actually forsee a Bayonetta ban yet. Our community is incredibly reactionary. As long as EVO Japan and Frostbite gatekeep the Bayonetta players, people won't say a word.
Witch twist is frame 4.........


FeelMeUp FeelMeUp , I will not fear death if witch twist wasn’t in bayo’s arsenal. You won’t either without the ladder combos. It’ll go from a potential low percent killer to a damage dealing punish tool. It’s still scary getting 40% from a unlucky jab, but the potency would defiantly suffer a great deal.

We all fear Witch Time because it gives her immediate and auto-pilot access to her most powerful combos; all relying on witch twist lol.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Have any top Bayonettas released matchup charts recently? It would be interesting to see what her matchups look like. Tbh, matchup charts are far more practical than tier lists, in terms of seeing how characters do against each other. Also, what do you guys think about Pikachu's place on the tier list? Pikachu doesn't have that much representation other than ESAM at the top levels of play. I know the is Ridae and Captain L as well, but ESAM seems to carry the character. We also might see Pikachu rise on the tier list by next season, due to Mario and Ness not doing as well as they used to at tournaments. Pikachu is extremely good when mastered, but the only person I see with mastery of Pikachu is ESAM. It does help to have good matchups with Bayonetta and Cloud though. As someone who plays Bayonetta a lot, Pikachu is definitely the hardest character to combo out of the entire cast. Also, the matchup Pikachu has with Cloud is dead even, as both characters can do very well against each other. Cloud can exploit Pika's lack of range, but if Pikachu get's in, not only is Cloud combo meat, but Pikachu is one of the easiest characters to gimp with.

Edit: I would say that matches should be three stock, but nobody wants to watch a campy Bayo or Sonic for 20+ minutes, even though it would help the person fighting the Bayo get a better read on the Bayo's playstyle. Ryo was obviously getting better at the Bayo matchup as he was going, but 3-stocks would have helped him so much.
I think Pikachu wins the Cloud match up. Pikachu does have a lack of range, but being combo meat + easily gimpable by one of the best gimpers in the game is probably not good for Cloud. I would say that Bayonetta and Pikachu are even right now, but according to ESAM, Pikachu actually slightly wins the match up against Bayonetta. Some say that Pikachu wins against Diddy, and some say they go even.
 

sleepy_Nex

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|RK| |RK| normally you won't die at 20% from a witchtime though. You should really be much more afraid of witchtwist cause if you touch her shield and didn't space at maximum you get witchtwisted, you get witchtwisted if you are above her and it's way more practical to throw that out at random because at worst she'll get a airial and reset. It is a factor to consider at all times unlike witchtime. You should be aware of Witchtime but i don't fear being witchtimed at 20%. It's mostly going to kill me at upsmash or fsmash kill percents and at that range you should change your play(like getting more cautious) but if it works before that there is no need to adjust to the risk of a witchtime at 20%.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Have any top Bayonettas released matchup charts recently? It would be interesting to see what her matchups look like.
She goes even with a few top tiers and high tiers, wins +1 against most other top tiers and high tiers, wins +2 or +3 vs most or all mid and low tiers.

Also, what do you guys think about Pikachu's place on the tier list? Pikachu doesn't have that much representation other than ESAM at the top levels of play.
Pikachu is a really good character who is hard to master and has a worse MU chart than some other "hard to master" characters, such as Sheik or Rosalina. Pikachu is somewhere in top 15, potentially top 10 even, probably not better than Corrin though.

Corrin is in a similar spot. She's not nearly as hard to play as Pikachu, but Cloud exists and was released before Corrin, so many potential Corrin-players had already switched to Cloud by the time Corrin was released, and of those who hadn't, many would still pick Cloud over Corrin since Cloud is stronger overall. I think Corrin has the potential to be top 10, though. Her MU chart is good enough for top 10, and Cosmos has shown that a good Corrin player can do really well at top levels of play.

Pikachu does have a lack of range, but being combo meat + easily gimpable by one of the best gimpers in the game is probably not good for Cloud.
Cloud isn't easily gimpable, his airspeed is too good, and that's assuming he doesn't have limit. If he has limit, then good luck gimping him. I'm personally inclined to say that it's an even MU (which Captain L and Rideae seem to agree with). ESAM has a tendency to overrate Pikachu (with that MU chart Pikachu is top 5, maybe top 3).

Witch Time is Bayonetta's best move. [RK] sums up why. Without Witch Time Bayonetta would be a lot easier to approach and juggle in general. The threat of Witch Time forces you to play much more carefully than you normally would.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Witch Twist may be frame four but the rest of her kit is fairly slow. If her opponent is not above her or close she can have a problem trying to contest faster characters that can throw out hitboxes quicker than her. Her fastest non witch twist OOS option she has is grab, fastest attack is Fair at 11 with 4 JS frames both options notably getting beat hard by cross ups on shield. Think about how little you fear swinging at D3 he's got nothing to be afraid of if your attack him first since he's slow both movement and frame data wise. Among other reasons these included you can drown him in frame data without much worry. Bayonetta would have the same problem although not as bad without Witch Time but because she has it you can't drown her with superior frame data. She controls the way you have to fundamentally play the game that's why it's her strongest tool, Witch Twist might be like Melee Shine in that it does everything but nothing changes the way the game is played than does Witch Time
 

|RK|

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I'm going to explain once more, since I think many people are missing the point entirely.

Witch Twist is amazing. But it is primarily a punish tool. Obviously if she just had Witch Time, she wouldn't be as threatening at 0%. The entire point is that if she had some other early kill punish game - even ZSS's - she'd be about as threatening.

Witch Time enhances her punish game by way of threatening it at all times. If Witch Twist we're the only issue, there are a number of ways to play around it. You could throw out hitboxes to stuff her approaches. You could hit her before she lands from a big combo, so on.

Yes, these tools work in TANDEM. But Bayo would be infinitely more manageable without the threat of Witch Time. If you play against a Bayonetta, think about why you're playing so carefully against her in neutral.
 
D

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Guest
I'm going to explain once more, since I think many people are missing the point entirely.

Witch Twist is amazing. But it is primarily a punish tool. Obviously if she just had Witch Time, she wouldn't be as threatening at 0%. The entire point is that if she had some other early kill punish game - even ZSS's - she'd be about as threatening.

Witch Time enhances her punish game by way of threatening it at all times. If Witch Twist we're the only issue, there are a number of ways to play around it. You could throw out hitboxes to stuff her approaches. You could hit her before she lands from a big combo, so on.

Yes, these tools work in TANDEM. But Bayo would be infinitely more manageable without the threat of Witch Time. If you play against a Bayonetta, think about why you're playing so carefully against her in neutral.
This. ZeRo in one of his videos on how to beat all characters in less than four minutes or something said that to beat Bayonetta, you need good patience. It is hard for the fans to exert patience ( patience is a hard quality overall in this world ), so it makes sense why Bayonetta is hated so much. If people exerted patience more, no one would hate fighting Bayonetta as much as today. Are grabs a good punish option against Bayonetta?
 

Skeeter Mania

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I don't understand why this conversation is even happening now. Because a Bayo got second at the most recent major? Seems silly when the character is not consistently winning. I think this is a conversation that should be tabled until the end of the PGR season.
Dude, she's won multiple majors in the past year starting with EVO. The list of the others:

  • DreamHack Atlanta (Salem)
  • Fire Emblem Saga (Salem)
Even beyond that, Bayonetta players like the aforementioned Salem, Lima, Mistake, CaptainZack, and others tend to place strongly with consistency.
 

Yonder

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I think Pikachu wins the Cloud match up. Pikachu does have a lack of range, but being combo meat + easily gimpable by one of the best gimpers in the game is probably not good for Cloud. I would say that Bayonetta and Pikachu are even right now, but according to ESAM, Pikachu actually slightly wins the match up against Bayonetta. Some say that Pikachu wins against Diddy, and some say they go even.
So Esam is saying Pikachu basically only loses two MUs by a tiny portion,one which isn't common in the meta right now.

We should be calling for Pikachu bans. Bayo has nothing on him.

I'm not Pikachu expert, but the Luigi:pikachu MU was freaking HORRIBLE for Pikachu pre patch. A ****ty player like me shouldn't have been able to take Captain L to game 3 when I versed him way back when. Idk how much the MU has changed besides the lost kill confirm, but Pikachu doesn't beat Luigi at least. He has most the same tools as Mario sans cape + mobility to make the Mu hard for Pikachu.

I mean, I expect some bias from Esam, but he's the most bias smasher I've seen all around. Great player and he's definitely pushing Pikachu's meta...but let's wait till Pikachu can at least make top 4 once at a major before saying he's like top 5.
 

The_Bookworm

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It's happened before.
It happened a looooong time ago. Pikachu got pretty much outclassed by the top tier fighters ever since the second tier list. His results are good, but not that good.

So Esam is saying Pikachu basically only loses two MUs by a tiny portion,one which isn't common in the meta right now.

We should be calling for Pikachu bans. Bayo has nothing on him.

I'm not Pikachu expert, but the Luigi:pikachu MU was freaking HORRIBLE for Pikachu pre patch. A ****ty player like me shouldn't have been able to take Captain L to game 3 when I versed him way back when. Idk how much the MU has changed besides the lost kill confirm, but Pikachu doesn't beat Luigi at least. He has most the same tools as Mario sans cape + mobility to make the Mu hard for Pikachu.

I mean, I expect some bias from Esam, but he's the most bias smasher I've seen all around. Great player and he's definitely pushing Pikachu's meta...but let's wait till Pikachu can at least make top 4 once at a major before saying he's like top 5.
ESAM's number one argument (and most iconic / memeful argument) is that Pikachu is top tier (he ranked him top five prior to his most recent tier list), and that he loses to barely anyone other than Mario and Ness (both characters, though still good characters, being less common than in 2016), when Pikachu is mastered beyond his learning curve (which is similar to what people is saying about Roy and Lucas), and that he hasn't quite mastered him himself. ZeRo and the first official list followed this theory as well, but Pikachu, while still a good character, has fallen off when he didn't get the results in the making of a top tier (which having small representation didn't help either).
Keep in mind that the current tier list's voting came before MKLeo's performance at 2GG Championship, so MK would've, theoretically, taken Pikachu's 15th postion.
 

NairWizard

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I'm no Pika enthusiast, but Luigi is far easier for Pikachu than Mario. Luigi trades a worse disadvantage state for better combos compared to Mario. This is a favorable trade for PIkachu.

To put it very crudely (you can nitpick the mathematical formalism here, but don't bother), think about it like this:

difficulty of matchup = risk / reward

Let's say Luigi's combos are twice as punishing as Mario's (not true in practice), so fighting Mario has a risk of 10 and fighting Luigi has a risk of 20.

But the reward for hitting Mario is like 3 and the reward for hitting Luigi is like 10, since you can often take his stock when he's offstage.

Then you have simply 10/3 > 20/10, making the Mario MU more difficult.



imagine a matchup where the reward is exactly 0, as in, you gain nothing from ever hitting your opponent. Then the difficulty tends toward infinity, which makes intuitive sense, since you'd never be able to win.

or imagine a matchup where the risk is exactly 0, as in, you never take any damage from getting hit by your opponent. Then the difficult is exactly 0, meaning you always win.
 

WiFi

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The current meta does favor Pikachu though. We just need a breakout performance by one of the Pikachu mains and Pikachu can be top 10. Corrin, Meta Knight, and Pikachu should probably have their own tier above high tier where Marth and Ryu are. Pikachu benefits so much from doing well against Cloud and Bayonetta. Since Mario's representation is going down, and Ness barely has any representation at all compared to other mid and high tiers, its safe to say that a good Pikachu can thrive in the current meta. While ESAM is biased, he also understands the character better than everybody else, including Captain L and Ridae, so I'll actually take his word for it. He labs Pikachu constantly, and performs better than any other Pikachu by a far margin. He also did well against Zero back in the day, and eliminated Mr. R from Genesis 5. Also, Pikachu's edgeguarding is ridiculous when mastered, so Luigi is definitely an easier matchup than Mario. Also for those who say Pikachu can't keep up with Cloud's aerial mobility, your right, but there is a thing called Quick Attack which largely negates that.
 

The-Technique

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I'm no Pika enthusiast, but Luigi is far easier for Pikachu than Mario. Luigi trades a worse disadvantage state for better combos compared to Mario. This is a favorable trade for PIkachu.

To put it very crudely (you can nitpick the mathematical formalism here, but don't bother), think about it like this:

difficulty of matchup = risk / reward

Let's say Luigi's combos are twice as punishing as Mario's (not true in practice), so fighting Mario has a risk of 10 and fighting Luigi has a risk of 20.

But the reward for hitting Mario is like 3 and the reward for hitting Luigi is like 10, since you can often take his stock when he's offstage.

Then you have simply 10/3 > 20/10, making the Mario MU more difficult.



imagine a matchup where the reward is exactly 0, as in, you gain nothing from ever hitting your opponent. Then the difficulty tends toward infinity, which makes intuitive sense, since you'd never be able to win.

or imagine a matchup where the risk is exactly 0, as in, you never take any damage from getting hit by your opponent. Then the difficult is exactly 0, meaning you always win.
I agree with your analysis but I wouldn't say the matchup is *far* easier. It's more rewarding for Pikachu to land a hit on Luigi compared to Mario, but Luigi also has a wider selection of explosive kill options that Pikachu has to watch out for, on top of his higher damage output. For example, a slightly mis-spaced landing f-air that's usually safe against most of the cast means dying at sub 50%. ESAM has also played against Elegant a few times, with Elegant coming out on top in their last set. Overall i would say it's an even matchup between Luigi and Pika (Mario should not be a 45:55 at worst though, lol)

Also this breakout performance we're waiting for from ESAM ain't gonna happen if he keeps losing a 6:4 matchup :p
 
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theMichael

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Dude, she's won multiple majors in the past year starting with EVO. The list of the others:

  • DreamHack Atlanta (Salem)
  • Fire Emblem Saga (Salem)
Even beyond that, Bayonetta players like the aforementioned Salem, Lima, Mistake, CaptainZack, and others tend to place strongly with consistency.
Short list of others... I'm not convinced that those 4 players you mentioned are so dominant in the meta that it warrants a ban.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Mario should not be a 45:55 at worst though, lol
Really? What do you think it should be?

Plus, I may have heard things in advance, but what is it about Mario that makes the MU rough?

Short list of others... I'm not convinced that those 4 players you mentioned are so dominant in the meta that it warrants a ban.
Uhh, I'm not vouching for a ban.
 
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theMichael

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Really? What do you think it should be?

Plus, I may have heard things in advance, but what is it about Mario that makes the MU rough?



Uhh, I'm not vouching for a ban.
Sorry if my initial comment wasn't clear but that's what it was in reference to. She obviously has results but the pages of discussion about whether she should be banned are unjust considering her first major win was EVO only 6 months ago and she has not swept everything since. We need to let this pgr season play out before we know how truly dominant she is.
 

The_Bookworm

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The current meta does favor Pikachu though. We just need a breakout performance by one of the Pikachu mains and Pikachu can be top 10. Corrin, Meta Knight, and Pikachu should probably have their own tier above high tier where Marth and Ryu are. Pikachu benefits so much from doing well against Cloud and Bayonetta. Since Mario's representation is going down, and Ness barely has any representation at all compared to other mid and high tiers, its safe to say that a good Pikachu can thrive in the current meta. While ESAM is biased, he also understands the character better than everybody else, including Captain L and Ridae, so I'll actually take his word for it. He labs Pikachu constantly, and performs better than any other Pikachu by a far margin. He also did well against Zero back in the day, and eliminated Mr. R from Genesis 5. Also, Pikachu's edgeguarding is ridiculous when mastered, so Luigi is definitely an easier matchup than Mario. Also for those who say Pikachu can't keep up with Cloud's aerial mobility, your right, but there is a thing called Quick Attack which largely negates that.
"...Ness barely has any representation at all compared to other mid and high tiers..."
[insert John Cena's "Are you sure about that?"]
Btw, Quick Attack does not leave you invincible and can be easily predicted, especially for those who knows the matchup (Nairo notably abused that factor during his Genesis set against ESAM).
Really? What do you think it should be?

Plus, I may have heard things in advance, but what is it about Mario that makes the MU rough?
I think it is because he and Ness also suffers from below average range, but has much more consistent and stronger KO power. Anything deeper why, I do not know, but you is as simple as looking it up since it is a matchup that is known for a while now.
Sorry if my initial comment wasn't clear but that's what it was in reference to. She obviously has results but the pages of discussion about whether she should be banned are unjust considering her first major win was EVO only 6 months ago and she has not swept everything since. We need to let this pgr season play out before we know how truly dominant she is.
As I said before, we need to wait and see, especially in a meta that ZeRo no longer exists but players like MKLeo having a download on her.
 

WiFi

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"...Ness barely has any representation at all compared to other mid and high tiers..."
[insert John Cena's "Are you sure about that?"]
Btw, Quick Attack does not leave you invincible and can be easily predicted, especially for those who knows the matchup (Nairo notably abused that factor during his Genesis set against ESAM).

I think it is because he and Ness also suffers from below average range, but has much more consistent and stronger KO power. Anything deeper why, I do not know, but you is as simple as looking it up since it is a matchup that is known for a while now.

As I said before, we need to wait and see, especially in a meta that ZeRo no longer exists but players like MKLeo having a download on her.
Lol, but seriously, Ness has far worse representation than other mid-tiers. I barely see any Ness mains on even Local Pgrs. Ness is a scary character to face, but only if you are combo food or low tier. Literally every high tier except for Pikachu and Lucario has more representation than Ness does.

Edit: Oh, I just noticed that you are a Ness main. No bad intentions. Ness is a monster to face if you aren't a swordie, Zss, Fox, or Bayonetta. Ness loses far fewer matchups than the other mid-tiers. His grab game is insane.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Lol, but seriously, Ness has far worse representation than other mid-tiers. I barely see any Ness mains on even Local Pgrs. Ness is a scary character to face, but only if you are combo food or low tier. Literally every high tier except for Pikachu and Lucario has more representation than Ness does.

Edit: Oh, I just noticed that you are a Ness main. No bad intentions. Ness is a monster to face if you aren't a swordie, Zss, Fox, or Bayonetta. Ness loses far fewer matchups than the other mid-tiers. His grab game is insane.
It is not because I main Ness :')
It is pity that people, however, thinks that Ness sucks because of his poor matchup against Rosalina and the higher ranked swords (Marth and Corrin, specifically). Also, are you sure Ness has worse representation than say: Olimar, Villager, Link, Lucas, Pit, and almost every character currently ranked below Shulk? I'd admit that his representation had seen better days, but he still gets good results, with 2018 Ness starting off with BestNess's 25th at Genesis.
 
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Minordeth

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Pika is good. I’m not seeing any kind of evidence for “Pika only clearly loses two MUs in the game” good.

Whenever I see a Pika MU chart, especially by ESAM, I just bump his MUs up a difficulty level.

Mario and Ness at a barely noticeable advantage? They are probably a 6:4 or 7:3. Rosa and Mewtwo are probably at least 6:4. Sonic and Peach adjusted are probably 55:45, and all those 55:45s are probably even. And that’s still super optimistic.

Saying a character is “even or 55:45” is like saying “an already extremely close MU with a barely detectable advantage is even more extremely close.”

Whatevs. ESAM is a dope player who labs the hell out of his character. But stuff Pika can’t get around: he hates trades worse than Sheik, Quick Attack extends his hurtbox, he needs to fish unless he can catch you with a set up, and unless he can rack up some damage with extended combos, he’s in for a long game.
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Lol, but seriously, Ness has far worse representation than other mid-tiers. I barely see any Ness mains on even Local Pgrs. Ness is a scary character to face, but only if you are combo food or low tier. Literally every high tier except for Pikachu and Lucario has more representation than Ness does.

Edit: Oh, I just noticed that you are a Ness main. No bad intentions. Ness is a monster to face if you aren't a swordie, Zss, Fox, or Bayonetta. Ness loses far fewer matchups than the other mid-tiers. His grab game is insane.
He has representation his mains don't travel or are regional players. You aren't lying that he lacks consistent presence at majors since FOWs retirement but so do character around his level so he's placed where he should be tier wise. A good but flawed character that's still relevant.
 
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D

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Pika is good. I’m not seeing any kind of evidence for “Pika only clearly loses two MUs in the game” good.

Whenever I see a Pika MU chart, especially by ESAM, I just bump his MUs up a difficulty level.

Mario and Ness at a barely noticeable advantage? They are probably a 6:4 or 7:3. Rosa and Mewtwo are probably at least 6:4. Sonic and Peach adjusted are probably 55:45, and all those 55:45s are probably even. And that’s still super optimistic.

Saying a character is “even or 55:45” is like saying “an already extremely close MU with a barely detectable advantage is even more extremely close.”

Whatevs. ESAM is a dope player who labs the hell out of his character. But stuff Pika can’t get around: he hates trades worse than Sheik, Quick Attack extends his hurtbox, he needs to fish unless he can catch you with a set up, and unless he can rack up some damage with extended combos, he’s in for a long game.
You underrate Pikachu.
Mario and Ness a 7:3 for Pikachu?
That is an interesting opinion.
I would say that Mario, Ness, Mewtwo, Rosalina, Sonic, and Peach are all only 45:55 ( their favor against Pikachu ). Pikachu in theory was thought to be top five even, because of his good results at the time and his "potential". I do agree that Pikachu does not win the advantage against some 55:45 and should at least be even ( Notably Bayonetta - that is even ). Pikachu probably has the best match up spread out of all high tiers in my opinion, second would be either Corrin or Lucina.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Pika is good. I’m not seeing any kind of evidence for “Pika only clearly loses two MUs in the game” good.

Whenever I see a Pika MU chart, especially by ESAM, I just bump his MUs up a difficulty level.

Mario and Ness at a barely noticeable advantage? They are probably a 6:4 or 7:3. Rosa and Mewtwo are probably at least 6:4. Sonic and Peach adjusted are probably 55:45, and all those 55:45s are probably even. And that’s still super optimistic.

Saying a character is “even or 55:45” is like saying “an already extremely close MU with a barely detectable advantage is even more extremely close.”

Whatevs. ESAM is a dope player who labs the hell out of his character. But stuff Pika can’t get around: he hates trades worse than Sheik, Quick Attack extends his hurtbox, he needs to fish unless he can catch you with a set up, and unless he can rack up some damage with extended combos, he’s in for a long game.
Then again, ESAM is ESAM, and he won't care what others say about Pikachu unless it is in support of Pikachu. Anyways, you are, for the most part, correct.
He hasn't representation his mains don't travel or are regional players. You aren't lying that he lacks consistent presence at majors since FOWs retirement but so don't character all around him so he's placed where he should be tier wise.
Yeah. People easily pick on Ness (sometimes due to understandable hate for the character), but when Diddy lost ZeRo, Villager lost Ranai, and Toon Link lost the national appearance of Hyuga, people are softer (sometimes much softer) on them.
 
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