Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Deleted member]

Honestly, Diddy Kong could still be in top three, but not in S tier anymore. With his best player gone and no top player using him, who will? Before you said "Bwah! We already said this!", I was pointing to another reason.

I am not saying Rosa and Sheik will be above Diddy, but those two are nearing Diddy. I personally think Cloud and Bayonetta are the only S-tiered characters. Fox is a potential candidate for top six or five, but who truly knows?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Wow, we are getting a lot of new people in here, huh? Welcome to SmashBoards!

I am a little confused on the "Bowser and DK" should not be in C tier thing. Do you mean they are too high or too low?



If too high: Bowser and Donkey Kong have good results compared to the others in C tier. ZeRo thinks that they are top of high tier, and that is because they have a really good grab game, and some top players use them as counter-picks ( Nairo and Larry Lurr being prime examples ).

If too low: Bowser and DK still have large problems, like Donkey Kong being combo food and Bowser's defense game being atrocious for a high tier. They also have large abusable hurt-boxes, so keep that in mind.



If too high: Lucina and Marth are slowly being considered the same. Lucina's results reached an expodential growth after her buffs, going from bottom tier to high tier. Lots of top players use her ( Nairo, Mr. E, ZeRo ) over Marth ( Mr. E still uses Marth slightly more than her ). I like Lucina's placing, she is similar to Marth so she has similar qualities.

If too low: You are slightly right on that but I guess it is because she is generally still considered a "slightly worse Marth". Ah well.

DK deserves his current position, but I think Bowser is a little overrated. Like what you said, he has a really poor defensive game, and is a bit more reliant on grabbing to set up combos. He does has some landing options over DK, but they are slow and predictable (especially if you know the matchup). Over than that, his best player Nairo, only uses him as a counterpick, while his solo players is merely doing average. I personally consider him at the bottom of C-Tier (high tier).
Lucina deserves her current position. The main reason why many players use her over Marth is because she has a relatively low learning curve, while still having the majority of Marth's strengths. I do think that Mr. E (who is the best Lucina main in the world now) using her over Marth more often will affect Marth in the long run, but MKLeo is still doing amazing things with Marth (like right now at Genesis 5).

IDK if you were around during brawl but Zelda started out something like 17 places higher on the tier list. Then people learned how to fight her. Relevant or not, you have to know MUs. Don't forget Zero lost to Prince Raymin's Palutena.

Zelda in both Melee and Brawl was once considered mid-tier, until advancements to the meta revealed how awful she in those two games. When those weaknesses was unaddressed in SSB4 (and initially worsened), she was immediately picked on upon SSB4's release. She was even considered the worst character in the game prior to her buffs in 1.1.5.

Honestly, Diddy Kong could still be in top three, but not in S tier anymore. With his best player gone and no top player using him, who will? Before you said "Bwah! We already said this!", I was pointing to another reason.

I am not saying Rosa and Sheik will be above Diddy, but those two are nearing Diddy. I personally think Cloud and Bayonetta are the only S-tiered characters. Fox is a potential candidate for top six or five, but who truly knows?

Some people may consider it poetic justice, if S-tier is called "5.99 tier" in the next official tier list. I am not particularly fond of that though, since it gives the impression that those two characters are dominating the meta in a similar vein to 64 Pikachu and Kirby, which is not true.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

no top player using him

Well, you'd be wrong to say that.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, you'd be wrong to say that.

What I mean is the person who is the highest Diddy Kong member is MVD, placing... 25th. That is not good for a S tier character at all, even though his representation is still very strong.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What I mean is the person who is the highest Diddy Kong member is MVD, placing... 25th. That is not good for a S tier character at all, even though his representation is still very strong.

Well MVD just reached top 8 at Genesis in the Winner's side. It is almost like ZeRo decided, "I am going to give my strength to another Diddy player. Who is highest ranked Diddy Kong this season? MVD? I will give to him." Even since 2018 started, MVD's movement started to become ZeRo-like.
I don't think that Diddy is a S-tier character anymore, although all we can do is wait and see.

 

[chaos11011]

I think it's too early to start speculating Diddy's placement without ZeRo. This is the beginning of a ZeRo-less metagame, and while it's true that MVD is the "next best one on PGR", this is the first time in a while where players ZeRo was a gatekeeper to can shine through. At face value, yeah, that might mean that other characters will rise in Diddy's place, but think a few steps ahead and you might see more players who shut down X Top Player / Character while the lesser Diddys could beat them. To theorycraft, let's say that ZeRo was a gatekeeper to a plethora of Olimar mains, and those Olimar mains are now able to shine and beat players like Nairo, Leo, and Salem, but players like Legit, MVD, and Shoyo James can deal with them. There we see Olimar mains upsetting the new Big 3 while the Diddys use the alteration to the bracket to their advantage.

Not saying it will or could happen, but I just wanted to illustrate how metagames are always changing and much like how in competitive Pokemon, if you ban a Pokemon (or in this case, if ZeRo doesn't show up), the game is changed entirely as the things that would find success beating the Pokemon/player are now worse off and those who were shut down by the Pokemon/player can now rise.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Honestly, who cares where Diddy goes after this change? What's known is already known.

 

[Heracr055]

Diddy will be fine. Anyone who is calling for otherwise this early underestimates Diddy's playerbase and tools. Or is too new to know what they're saying.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I like this list better than the 3rd. Luigi is back to almost where he started at 18. Lucina is still rising and she could even become a Top tier at the rate the tiers are going. Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus are back near the top again and Link, Duck Hunt, Shulk, and Donkey Kong have all risen several places. Mega Man dropped as did Ness and Yoshi which was fine by me. I think Luigi, Villager, Toon Link, Lucas, Dark PIt and Greninja could have been a 1 or 2 places higher while Samus, Yoshi and Ryu were all a bit high but I wouldn't really make any major changes to this tier list outside of Luigi and Doctor Mario who I would raise up about 5-7 places each. Doc does better than Palutena, Pac-Man and maybe even Wario and his combos are much more damaging than Mario's when he lands them. I don't really need to say much about Luigi given his combo game and great frame-data but his results definitely point towards a higher placing in the future.

 

[Minordeth]

What I should have said was, "The aggressor is the player who initiates a situation that is likely to translate into a transition out of the neutral state, not necessarily in the initiator's favor." Perfect pivoting backwards doesn't seem to be "initiating" anything to me; it seems to be, rather, disengaging and waiting for the opponent to initiate. You're right that initiate may have been a vague word to use here; that was why I clarified. I disagreed that it was oversimplification.

Alright man, you’ve had to elucidate on this statement

It’s simple. The player who reacts is playing defensively. The player who initiates is playing aggressively

for like, a couple solid (sense?) essays now. We both know that the above statement is literally an oversimplification of something complex and nuanced - which is why you’ve had to restate it with added depth. That was the main thing I took issue with.

I can’t tell if we are talking past each other because lol internet. I’m guessing yes.

Rather, I said that using a hitbox doesn't imply aggression. Elegant's aggressive play often comes down to rolling behind the opponent, an action which has no hitbox at all.

Yeah, man, I know. Hence why I pointed out that rolling was one of Luigi’s main offensive tools in my reply to you. Like, we both know jump-ins are like the traditional, non-hitbox offensive action in fighters. Nothing to disagree with?

Where we disagreed was on your assertion that:

"If I initiate a series of attacks on my opponents shield to pressure them into making a more limited, but predictable decision, that is me being aggressive. I am attempting to limit their options with my attacks. Pressuring is pretty basic offensive play out of neutral."

I didn't think that this was necessarily being aggressive, but you've already retracted the statement.

Pretty much. In a less explicit way, “pressuring” is a general term, and can certainly be aggressive. But in the case you brought up, I agree it wasn’t. So, we cool there.

My original point was that Dabuz wasn't as aggressive as you were claiming, with which you seem to agree.

I can agree that Dabuz' play got progressively more aggressive throughout the set, and sometimes it did indeed cost him. I would hardly characterize his overall play in either set as aggressive, however. He was playing defensively, for the majority of the set, because that's how Rosalina must play (Kirihara's strange antics aside).

Ehhhh, I’m not gonna go back and count instances to quantify this, but yeah, in the playoffs, I’d agree. I’d say it’s more mixed in the LQF set though.

I’m probably also measuring aggression in my brain relative to Dabuz.

But, really, we both agree. And at this point, like, as I’m typing right now, I’m not sure why I bothered to write all this out.

I’m certainly not going to erase it though, because this took time, and it’s Sunday, and this is the most productive I’ve been today.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it's too early to start speculating Diddy's placement without ZeRo. This is the beginning of a ZeRo-less metagame, and while it's true that MVD is the "next best one on PGR", this is the first time in a while where players ZeRo was a gatekeeper to can shine through. At face value, yeah, that might mean that other characters will rise in Diddy's place, but think a few steps ahead and you might see more players who shut down X Top Player / Character while the lesser Diddys could beat them. To theorycraft, let's say that ZeRo was a gatekeeper to a plethora of Olimar mains, and those Olimar mains are now able to shine and beat players like Nairo, Leo, and Salem, but players like Legit, MVD, and Shoyo James can deal with them. There we see Olimar mains upsetting the new Big 3 while the Diddys use the alteration to the bracket to their advantage.

Not saying it will or could happen, but I just wanted to illustrate how metagames are always changing and much like how in competitive Pokemon, if you ban a Pokemon (or in this case, if ZeRo doesn't show up), the game is changed entirely as the things that would find success beating the Pokemon/player are now worse off and those who were shut down by the Pokemon/player can now rise.

In a way you are right, but I am still a little worried for my little monkey ( or ape ) friend without ZeRo. You sure that MVD and others can beat people like Salem, Nairo or MKLeo consistently? Let's just hope that MVD, Zinoto and the others do their best. ZeRo being gone does introduce more potential Diddys, but I think he might drop out of S tier. Who truly knows?

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

In a way you are right, but I am still a little worried for my little monkey ( or ape ) friend without ZeRo. You sure that MVD and others can beat people like Salem, Nairo or MKLeo consistently? Let's just hope that MVD, Zinoto and the others do their best. ZeRo being gone does introduce more potential Diddys, but I think he might drop out of S tier. Who truly knows?

MVD IS top 8 in Genesis 5 right now, so he might have more potential as a player than what we think right now. I can't remember the last time MVD was top 8 at such a large national, so if he continues to improve from here, he could certainly keep Diddy more relevant than what some think.

Let's not give up on Diddy Kong yet, whether we're talking theory, tournament results, or both.

 

[TDK]

Genesis 5 (674 Entrants) (NorCal)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Mistake
3rd: Salem
4th: Nairo
5th: Dabuz
5th: MVD
7th: Falln
7th: ESAM
9th: Mr. R
9th: K9Sbruce
9th: Zenyou
9th: Ally
13th: Elegant
13th: WaDi
13th: Maister
13th: Lima
17th: Sinji
17th: Legit
17th: Tamushika
17th: Fataliy
17th: Javi
17th: Chag
17th: Raito
17th: Larry Lurr
25th: Captain L
25th: BestNess
25th: Brood
25th: Twan
25th: Konga
25th: Eon
25th: Ryo
33rd: IcyMist
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sharpy
33rd: Xzax
33rd: C4
33rd: SuperGirlKels
33rd: Aarvark
33rd: Peli
33rd: Dynamo
33rd: KOSSismoss
33rd: Stroder
33rd: Prodigy
33rd: 6WX
33rd: Snoop
33rd: ANTi
33rd: SM
49th: Pink Fresh
49th: Charliedaking
49th: Pyreeze
49th: Mace
49th: Marathon
49th: DKHo
49th: BC
49th: LORDKING
49th: Cagt
49th: TLTC
49th: Shadow_PR
49th: Dragon
49th: Ac
49th: Meteor
49th: Jayy
49th: Virus

I don't usually post these, but:
65th: AEMehr
65th: Taternator

And congrats to @HoSmash4 for 49th!

 

[|RK|]

Genesis 5 (674 Entrants) (NorCal)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Mistake
3rd: Salem
4th: Nairo
5th: Dabuz
5th: MVD
7th: Falln
7th: ESAM
9th: Mr. R
9th: K9Sbruce
9th: Zenyou
9th: Ally
13th: Elegant
13th: WaDi
13th: Maister
13th: Lima
17th: Sinji
17th: Legit
17th: Tamushika
17th: Fataliy
17th: Javi
17th: Chag
17th: Raito
17th: Larry Lurr
25th: Captain L
25th: BestNess
25th: Brood
25th: Twan
25th: Konga
25th: Eon
25th: Ryo
33rd: IcyMist
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sharpy
33rd: Xzax
33rd: C4
33rd: SuperGirlKels
33rd: Aarvark
33rd: Peli
33rd: Dynamo
33rd: KOSSismoss
33rd: Stroder
33rd: Prodigy
33rd: 6WX
33rd: Snoop
33rd: ANTi
33rd: SM
49th: Pink Fresh
49th: Charliedaking
49th: Pyreeze
49th: Mace
49th: Marathon
49th: DKHo
49th: BC
49th: LORDKING
49th: Cagt
49th: TLTC
49th: Shadow_PR
49th: Dragon
49th: Ac
49th: Meteor
49th: Jayy
49th: Virus

I don't usually post these, but:
65th: AEMehr
65th: Taternator

And congrats to @HoSmash4 for 49th!

Considering your exception:

65th: Poyo

 

[Lukingordex]

I'd like to see Snoop's set against 6wX but it was offstream apparently... oh well

No Clouds in top 32 other than MKLeo is... interesting

 

[Deleted member]

Genesis 5 (674 Entrants) (NorCal)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Mistake
3rd: Salem
4th: Nairo
5th: Dabuz
5th: MVD
7th: Falln
7th: ESAM
9th: Mr. R
9th: K9Sbruce
9th: Zenyou
9th: Ally
13th: Elegant
13th: WaDi
13th: Maister
13th: Lima
17th: Sinji
17th: Legit
17th: Tamushika
17th: Fataliy
17th: Javi
17th: Chag
17th: Raito
17th: Larry Lurr
25th: Captain L
25th: BestNess
25th: Brood
25th: Twan
25th: Konga
25th: Eon
25th: Ryo
33rd: IcyMist
33rd: Blacktwins
33rd: Sharpy
33rd: Xzax
33rd: C4
33rd: SuperGirlKels
33rd: Aarvark
33rd: Peli
33rd: Dynamo
33rd: KOSSismoss
33rd: Stroder
33rd: Prodigy
33rd: 6WX
33rd: Snoop
33rd: ANTi
33rd: SM
49th: Pink Fresh
49th: Charliedaking
49th: Pyreeze
49th: Mace
49th: Marathon
49th: DKHo
49th: BC
49th: LORDKING
49th: Cagt
49th: TLTC
49th: Shadow_PR
49th: Dragon
49th: Ac
49th: Meteor
49th: Jayy
49th: Virus

I don't usually post these, but:
65th: AEMehr
65th: Taternator

And congrats to @HoSmash4 for 49th!

Considering your exception:

65th: Poyo

Wow, Mii Gunner, Bowser Jr and Kirby all making 65th with their players!
Congratulations MKLeo!
Glad to see Nairo high up there as well.
Either way, who will be the best player next season is going to be large. The three contenders ( Salem, Nairo, MKLeo ) all had good placings ( MKLeo: 1st, Salem: 3rd, Nairo: 4th ), and the meta without ZeRo is looking very interesting now.

 

[Shaya]

I believe Meteor Master from Australia got 65th too, with Palutena and Olimar most likely (not 100% sure).

 

[ARGHETH]

No Clouds in top 32 other than MKLeo is... interesting

Leo and Blacktwins were pretty much the only notable Cloud mains present.

 

[The-Technique]

Leo and Blacktwins were pretty much the only notable Cloud mains present.

Moreover, MK Leo pretty much played Cloud for one set throughout all of top 32, the rest of his games were won with Marth.

Really makes me cast doubt on the notion of Cloud being an easy, forgiving character.

Which character did Leo play to beat Konga? I dunno if that was played offstream or not. Meta Knight seems to be his go-to for handling heavies but I just want to make sure.

 

[Minordeth]

Moreover, MK Leo pretty much played Cloud for one set throughout all of top 32, the rest of his games were won with Marth.

Really makes me cast doubt on the notion of Cloud being an easy, forgiving character.

Which character did Leo play to beat Konga? I dunno if that was played offstream or not. Meta Knight seems to be his go-to for handling heavies but I just want to make sure.

He used Meta Knight for Konga.

I don’t think Cloud, at top level, has ever been forgiving, tho?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Moreover, MK Leo pretty much played Cloud for one set throughout all of top 32, the rest of his games were won with Marth.

Really makes me cast doubt on the notion of Cloud being an easy, forgiving character.

No character is easy to play at a top level, but I think the more likely explanation is that MkLeo just felt like playing Marth. Cloud is still top 3.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If anything, I learned that Bayonetta isn't hurting the meta.
The community is hurting itself because of her.
Most people are unable to see WHY things happen, they just see Bayo winning and are screaming to ban her.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If anything, I learned that Bayonetta isn't hurting the meta.
The community is hurting itself because of her.
Most people are unable to see WHY things happen, they just see Bayo winning and are screaming to ban her.

Not a single person on here said Bayonetta should be banned.

 

[Minordeth]

If anything, I learned that Bayonetta isn't hurting the meta.
The community is hurting itself because of her.
Most people are unable to see WHY things happen, they just see Bayo winning and are screaming to ban her.

Not a single person on here said Bayonetta should be banned.

Yeah, but the community is. Like, I’m staying outta twitter for the rest of the night. Top players interacting with the community aren’t helping.

 

[Deleted member]

Moreover, MK Leo pretty much played Cloud for one set throughout all of top 32, the rest of his games were won with Marth.

Really makes me cast doubt on the notion of Cloud being an easy, forgiving character.

Which character did Leo play to beat Konga? I dunno if that was played offstream or not. Meta Knight seems to be his go-to for handling heavies but I just want to make sure.

So.. is this a sign that Cloud is no longer top two in the future? Cloud is still top two, but props to MKLeo to sticking with Marth!
The main reason why he probably used Marth was that because there were a lot of Bayos and Sheiks out there, and Cloud has somewhat bad match-ups against them. So no wonder why he used Marth.
~Please do not ban Bayonetta, literally no reason.

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah, but the community is. Like, I’m staying outta twitter for the rest of the night. Top players interacting with the community aren’t helping.

Oh yeah its a riot. Not gonna name the players but its a salt explosion right now on Twitter.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh.

I think we should wait for much more than one tournament until we even discuss the possiblity of a bayo ban. Let alone actually doing it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So.. is this a sign that Cloud is no longer top two in the future?

Gee, I can't help but think you're too steadfast when it comes to possible character change.

Plus, even if that were to happen, if your opinion (and likely everyone else's by extension) were to continue to go unwavering, who would act as the replacement?

I think in the future, you should not be so swayed by the most recent of trends and wait to see how things go over a prolonged period.

 

[Rizen]

This is the only smash related social media I visit; looks like that's not a bad thing, lol. Genesis 5 shows both Diddy and Mario are alive and well at tournaments. Cloud didn't have much presence but there's no way he's dropping out of top 3. Not in results or theory.

I think Cloud loses and is replaced by secondaries like Corrin, Marth and Roy, because everybody and their mother knows the Cloud MU. He does better but a fresh approach is needed to throw opponents off. SSB4 has a strong CP/secondary meta due to balance and viability across the majority of the roster.

 

[Lord Dio]

Which character did Leo play to beat Konga? I dunno if that was played offstream or not. Meta Knight seems to be his go-to for handling heavies but I just want to make sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yulqOoruZ9Y
Leo murders Konga, takes 104 total, doesn't lose a stock. I think Coney described it as "a bodybag".........

No Clouds in top 32 other than MKLeo is... interesting

Tweek didn't come for some reason (probably the only person who could have stopped Leo aside from Dabuz tbh), komo wouldn't have come if the world meant it. So yeah, that explains the lack of cloud at g5, except for leo, but leo does what he wants so that's that.

 

[Locke 06]

If anything, I learned that Bayonetta isn't hurting the meta.
The community is hurting itself because of her.
Most people are unable to see WHY things happen, they just see Bayo winning and are screaming to ban her.

Bayo should be banned. Mistake platform camped Konga offstream and abused her risk reward. She wins the game by not playing the game and that is why she should be banned. Captain L got platform camped as well on stream. By not banning her, you are banning all characters who cannot deal with this overpowered strategy because her risk/reward for not playing smash is so strong.

These are just examples, obviously close to my heart examples due to my pnw relationship, but this is how I feel about her. She is poorly designed, like Miis, and negatively hurts the experience of the smash community. Banning things always faces uproar in the moment, but once things are banned everyone just accepts it and moves on. Nobody talks about duck hunt anymore, despite how much uproar there was about changing the stage list.

I see why things happen. And I don't like it. Yes, top tiers have tools to beat her and I don't necessarily think she's #1 tbh, but she negatively affects the community. People will say "pick a better character" but people will never say "pick a worse character." Bayo mains will move on to a different character if we banned her or quit just as many mid tiers have done while we have not banned her.

 

[The-Technique]

Bayo should be banned. Mistake platform camped Konga offstream and abused her risk reward. She wins the game by not playing the game and that is why she should be banned. Captain L got platform camped as well on stream. By not banning her, you are banning all characters who cannot deal with this overpowered strategy because her risk/reward for not playing smash is so strong.

These are just examples, obviously close to my heart examples due to my pnw relationship, but this is how I feel about her. She is poorly designed, like Miis, and negatively hurts the experience of the smash community. Banning things always faces uproar in the moment, but once things are banned everyone just accepts it and moves on. Nobody talks about duck hunt anymore, despite how much uproar there was about changing the stage list.

I see why things happen. And I don't like it. Yes, top tiers have tools to beat her and I don't necessarily think she's #1 tbh, but she negatively affects the community. People will say "pick a better character" but people will never say "pick a worse character." Bayo mains will move on to a different character if we banned her or quit just as many mid tiers have done while we have not banned her.

That's some hasty thinking, considering that Leo defeated every top Bayo main in Genesis using a character who's largely considered to be falling off from the meta, each of those sets being won dominantly no less. And then there's Mistake losing to a G&W and Pink Fresh losing to an Ike in the same tournament, and last month Komo reverse 3-0ing Captain Zack with Roy.

IMO there's a ton people could learn from Leo in terms of fighting Bayonetta, and just developing counterplay in general.

 

[Heracr055]

"People will say "pick a better character" but people will never say "pick a worse character.""
Sure they do (not necessarily in that way). What people advise is to pick a character that has at least 2 of these 3 qualities:
1) You like as a character
2) A character whose tools you understand and can employ
3) A character you can win with.
It's easy to say that people should just pick up a top tier to be relevant. However, we see players like Dath, Ryo, Gluttony, Raito, T, Fatality, etc. who succeed with whoever they mesh with the best. In addition, the gap between top and bottom is smaller than any other Smash game.
Also, Bayo doesn't require a ban.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That's some hasty thinking, considering that Leo defeated every top Bayo main in Genesis using a character who's largely considered to be falling off from the meta, each of those sets being won dominantly no less. And then there's Mistake losing to a G&W and Pink Fresh losing to an Ike in the same tournament, and last month Komo reverse 3-0ing Captain Zack with Roy.

IMO there's a ton people could learn from Leo in terms of fighting Bayonetta, and just developing counterplay in general.

WHAAAAT?!!

Get out, man. You're not even gonna bring up Dabuz?

 

[Deleted member]

Forgot to mention that Hungrybox got 257th in Genesis 5. At least he got a placing, right? Did any other Jigglypuff main place higher?
Source

Gee, I can't help but think you're too steadfast when it comes to possible character change.

Plus, even if that were to happen, if your opinion (and likely everyone else's by extension) were to continue to go unwavering, who would act as the replacement?

I think in the future, you should not be so swayed by the most recent of trends and wait to see how things go over a prolonged period.

Um, that was only one instance. Please do not judge me based on one thing, judge me based on multiple casings.

Bayo should be banned. Mistake platform camped Konga offstream and abused her risk reward. She wins the game by not playing the game and that is why she should be banned. Captain L got platform camped as well on stream. By not banning her, you are banning all characters who cannot deal with this overpowered strategy because her risk/reward for not playing smash is so strong.

These are just examples, obviously close to my heart examples due to my pnw relationship, but this is how I feel about her. She is poorly designed, like Miis, and negatively hurts the experience of the smash community. Banning things always faces uproar in the moment, but once things are banned everyone just accepts it and moves on. Nobody talks about duck hunt anymore, despite how much uproar there was about changing the stage list.

I see why things happen. And I don't like it. Yes, top tiers have tools to beat her and I don't necessarily think she's #1 tbh, but she negatively affects the community. People will say "pick a better character" but people will never say "pick a worse character." Bayo mains will move on to a different character if we banned her or quit just as many mid tiers have done while we have not banned her.

Bayonetta is doing really well in the meta and is quite a popular and strong character, but she is not ban worthy. Bayonetta has a somewhat not as good neutral and somewhat bad frame-data on the ground. The only thing I consider ban-worthy if it is used way too much compared to other characters, and is "master of all" and barely has flaws. The one I am referring to is Brawl Meta Knight. Bayonetta is nowhere near comparable as Brawl Meta Knight and the ban talk honestly needs to stop. Remember when @Das Koopa proved this like ten or more pages ago?

Onto a different subject:

Either way, I felt like Cloud did a little poor in Genesis 5, but I guess you can count Cloud as going in 1st, because MKLeo mains him. However, he used Marth and Meta Knight for the majority as The-Technique said. Maybe this could be his chance to keep Marth in top tier, but eh who knows.

 

[Locke 06]

That's some hasty thinking, considering that Leo defeated every top Bayo main in Genesis using a character who's largely considered to be falling off from the meta, each of those sets being won dominantly no less. And then there's Mistake losing to a G&W and Pink Fresh losing to an Ike in the same tournament, and last month Komo reverse 3-0ing Captain Zack with Roy.

IMO there's a ton people could learn from Leo in terms of fighting Bayonetta, and just developing counterplay in general.

Bayonetta should not lose to Ike. The matchup is Ike's absolute worst, which is saying something since Ike is not good.

"But how did it happen?" I don't know and I didn't watch, but Ike is invalidated by Bayonetta and partially why some Ike mains no longer exist.

 

[MercuryPenny]

In addition, the gap between top and bottom is smaller than any other Smash game.

superb smash bruddahs designed exclusively for the nintendo 64 video gaming apparatus begs to differ with you there

also, tbh, saying that smash 4 is more balanced than melee and brawl is not a high standard to meet

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Forgot to mention that Hungrybox got 257th in Genesis 5. At least he got a placing, right? Did any other Jigglypuff main place higher?
Source

First off, no. He's about to play against Leffen in winners semis right now as I type this- aaaand it's started. Second, that's melee, this is smash 4. Not really important given this context.

Onto a different subject:

Either way, I felt like Cloud did a little poor in Genesis 5, but I guess you can count Cloud as going in 1st, because MKLeo mains him. However, he used Marth and Meta Knight for the majority as The-Technique said. Maybe this could be his chance to keep Marth in top tier, but eh who knows.

Think you're a bit too focused on player representation and results. Especially on linking the two together and how that affects a tier list.

It takes time to see changes in a meta and a tier list. You're being a bit hasty with the character placement changes talk.

 

[|RK|]

Bayo should be banned. Mistake platform camped Konga offstream and abused her risk reward. She wins the game by not playing the game and that is why she should be banned. Captain L got platform camped as well on stream. By not banning her, you are banning all characters who cannot deal with this overpowered strategy because her risk/reward for not playing smash is so strong.

These are just examples, obviously close to my heart examples due to my pnw relationship, but this is how I feel about her. She is poorly designed, like Miis, and negatively hurts the experience of the smash community. Banning things always faces uproar in the moment, but once things are banned everyone just accepts it and moves on. Nobody talks about duck hunt anymore, despite how much uproar there was about changing the stage list.

I see why things happen. And I don't like it. Yes, top tiers have tools to beat her and I don't necessarily think she's #1 tbh, but she negatively affects the community. People will say "pick a better character" but people will never say "pick a worse character." Bayo mains will move on to a different character if we banned her or quit just as many mid tiers have done while we have not banned her.

Okay, so I understand that Bayonetta is frustrating, I really do. But this chain of logic is incredibly faulty.

This is basically defining a bad MU. By not banning Rosalina, are we banning DK? By not banning Meta Knight, are we banning Zelda?

The issue with Bayonetta isn't just her neutral tools or anything of that nature. We know that's irrelevant. It's the fact that no matter how you play against her, you can still die randomly. Trying to time her out with a lead? You could die. Trying to get a game started? You could die.

And that's not particularly unfamiliar - ICs (Melee/Brawl) and Jiggs (Melee) do the same thing and generate just about as much hate. The thing is, there's just less to compensate in this game. You can platform camp ICs or kill Nana. Getting to their win condition can actually be pretty difficult at times. Jiggs is not only extremely light, but needs specific reads or setups... and rest is incredibly risky. Her edgeguards also need a neutral win... and then she's hard countered by Fox.

Bayonetta does have counterplay, but there's nothing guaranteed. A combination of SDI (and knowing how to do so for each situation/position) and reactive play appears to be the best possible strategy. But it's not flawless, because Witch Time is a thing. And it basically says "no matter how perfectly you're playing you might still lose." And most characters can't play perfectly against her.

So, I don't even know what this long spiel is for anymore. Other than "hope you can find some consistent weakness to abuse." Otherwise, she will continue to to frustrating. Because the only way I see to be consistent against her right now (and I mean her as the character, not her players)... is again, near perfection.

For some people, that's a lot to ask.

 

[Shaya]

Eh, all I see is a slightly slower trend happening in exactly the same way MK did in Brawl. But obviously significantly faster than what Ice Climbers did.

Roughly 2 years into Brawl's life time, as it is 2 years since Bayo's release, there was still a lot of doubt - people still thought Snake could be the best in the game (a year and a half to the roughly 2-and-a-half year mark and Ally was winning most majors beating M2K).

And people today are only willing to compare the state of Brawl 3-4 years+ into it's life time (a point where it was difficult to deny the damage received wasn't already fatal) when going "Bayo's' not anything like MK! She isn't winning everything!"