Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Krysco]

Finally:


No. Dabuz is an amazing player. He is not an amazing player with half the cast, especially in the Bayo MU, against the best Bayo.

Was just posting Dabuz's comment to answer TDK's question. I know @Dabuz lurks here every now and then so maybe he'll provide clarity on his thoughts.

 

[Minordeth]

Was just posting Dabuz's comment to answer TDK's question. I know @Dabuz lurks here every now and then so maybe he'll provide clarity on his thoughts.

Fair. To be less hyperbolic and clarify: Fighting Bayo’s options is going to be very character specific. While there is some value in running through some characters with the best Bayo, there will be a host of things that will be MU specific that could make the match more doable that no one player is going to know - especially across multiple characters in top level play.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bayonetta should not lose to Ike. The matchup is Ike's absolute worst, which is saying something since Ike is not good.

"But how did it happen?" I don't know and I didn't watch, but Ike is invalidated by Bayonetta and partially why some Ike mains no longer exist.

"Ike mains no longer exist." Ryo just got top 32 and another Ike player got 33rd. San is doing well decent as well (such as his GOML 2017 run). It is not unwinnable for Ike (I know this was explained in a earlier comment).

 

[Wintermelon43]

I’ll be honest here: despite me absolutely despising her, I’ve been against the whole idea of banning Bayonetta simply because she currently doesn’t have the results/meta dominance to warrant it, but just seeing how the community, including top players, is now so incredibly divided and how they loathe just looking at or playing against her, it might just be for the best to get rid of her.

•The best player in the world quit because he does not enjoy “current Smash 4” (we all know what he meant).
•We lost a valuable asset in data collection (Tetra) simply due to how she saw the character impact the meta negatively from a data standpoint
•We’ve seen the amount of sheer hatred that players, especially top ones, have expressed towards her even by straight-up claiming that she kills the game.
•I’m not a fan of using anecdotes for arguments, but I’ve met top Brawl veterans that feel Bayonetta is way more toxic than Brawl MK and no longer play Smash 4. That is not okay.
•Even people who started with Smash 4 competitively, such as myself, have now stopped enjoying the game.
•Just look at her bonkers theory... I don’t need to elaborate on this any further because you all know how ridiculously risk-free and unfair she is.
•Having to look at data myself when I help create these tier lists, her results are actually getting more and more dominant. She, along with Cloud, makes up 10% of results... in a game with 58 characters.

I really can’t see how keeping her here any longer would be healthy. I just can’t. She’s by no means unbeatable, not even Brawl MK was, but it’s very obvious she is negatively impacting both the community and the game significantly.

So glad somebody said this, because this is exactly how I feel. Bayonetta isn't oppresive enough towards the meta tobe needed to be banned for that reason, but at this point it's hurting the community so much that if Bayonetta continues, the meta might die. If this continues on getting worse and worse for a while then........ as much as I've tried to deny it...... maybe it's neccisary, not for balance, but just to keep the game alive.

 

[Rizen]

Who specifically has quit because Bayo?

 

[Das Koopa]

I'd like to chip in (before I make a master post/article on the Bayo subject) and point out that while Bayonetta in Smash 4 no doubt contributed to ZeRo's departure, his losses across the board during 2017, especially the second half, extended way beyond just Bayonetta herself, leading me to believe that a general lack of passion or interest in competing heavily affected his ability to be dominant.

It's hard to blame Bayonetta when ZeRo is unceremoniously destroyed by both Cosmos and Marss in the same bracket. Considering ZeRo's history, his comments, and his departure, I just get the impression that being the #1 of a game for around 3 years straight, undergoing a torrent a twitter ****posting every time you lose, and not enjoying having to contend with certain playstyles or characters on top of everything else might wane your interest or passion cumulatively over the course of several years.

After all, he had considered retirement before Bayonetta even made her way onto the scene (2015, per his retirement letter), and he became steadily less dominant at the game after 2015 with only a brief period of resurgence in mid-late 2016.

I don't know ZeRo personally and have no insight beyond what he shares, his play, and his waning dominance as of the later part of this year. I don't think it's too armchair-y or too jimmy to suggest that it reflects his mindset, and his letter and retirement in and of itself seems to reflect that. This is only one part of Illusion's reasoning, but I think it's worth addressing.

 

[Das Koopa]

I would like to add a few things - (this isn't my "Master post" on Bayo, that's coming soon-ish on my blog)

-I agree that Bayonetta is a largely negative force in the game and I totally sympathize with wanting to ban her for the sheer sake of getting the vocal haters to just stop (to reduce toxicity in the scene) with the added benefit of not having to deal with what I and many others see as a very annoying character. I hate facing Mario and a lot of "press buttons" characters more than Bayo, but I'm not a solo Ike main in large part due to her, and I maintain my Lucario for that MU (and a few others.)

I don't think her loss would damage the scene, and it may even improve it, but I am extremely worried about setting a precedent towards banning a character largely based on community disdain even when a data based argument in favor of banning Bayonetta is very hard to come up with at this point. I have not forgotten the vitriol targeted towards pre-patch Sheik players, Dabuz, Wrath, or Manny. Viewer dissatisfaction was very high when Sonic, Rosalina, and pre-nerf Sheik were very relevant and I'm worried that if we ban Bayonetta that these characters would go, or that we'd be facilitating panic bans in future games before we let the meta develop.

The latter is a more realistic concern. I could totally see a #1 Sonic in Smash 5, for example, that could be a little better than he is now, largely campy as he is in Smash 4, getting a torrent of hate leading to a preemptive ban based on community dissatisfaction even if data didn't point to that theoretical Sonic being banworthy.

-Cases and controversies regarding her character definitely heighten and wane depending on the event. We were not having this discussion a week ago when PAX was ongoing because no Bayo sans Zack did particularly well. In fact, I had zero confidence in Mistake once he got 2-0'd by Maister and would never have guessed he would walk away the only Bayonetta with a particularly good performance at GENESIS.

-By that metric, I feel inclined to point out that Chag had a Duck Hunt bracket that he struggled to win before going 0-6 in Top 32, Lima had a pretty easy bracket (Sinji/Icymist) and the only big set he took was a player he already has a dominant record over likely due to his extensive Fox exp, and Salem, while placing 3rd, went 0-6 after only having to beat 2 ranked players (Ally & MVD) in his bracket run, with some consideration to Captain L contextualizing the last 4-6 months.

GENESIS was only really a good Bayo tournament because of Mistake in this regard and the only reason I think we aren't headed towards a rash ban is because Leo stonewalled him hard in Grands and actually convincingly defeated four solid Bayonetta players in bracket. Leo's hardest time was against Dabuz's Rosalina.

-People will "headline" on Bayo by using some of her flashier stunts as examples of why the character should be banned. Lima v.s Sinji may be the most distilled, absurd example captured in Smash 4, where a panic air dodge is effectively punished by a rage death ladder. However, if we were presenting evidence in a "trial" of sorts to determine her future as a character, I don't think the details would work in favor of the pro-ban side: Pac-Man has a ton of trouble killing, Bayonetta would still be a significantly better character without her jankiest moves, and Lima outranks Sinji significantly in both OR and PGR, where he's entirely unranked on the latter and ranked in the mid-90s on the former comparative to Lima's top 30 status.

I also think that, while Bayonetta's flashy kills are often ridiculous, the top/high tiers in this game oppressively dominate most low/low mid tiers. One major reason is a lack of sufficient kill power, meaning that you can get an opponent to 140% and still lose because they need 2 conversions to put you in death % or put you into a window you do NOT want to be in. Bayo makes it look flashy by having a really stupid rage KO ladder, but a lot of characters more subtly oppress characters like Pac almost as badly as Bayo can. Fox, Cloud, Sheik, and Diddy all come to mind as characters that are obscenely good at murdering a large chunk of the cast in ways that make it look impossible to overcome no matter how much time or effort you put into a niche character.

Duck Hunt's inability to kill efficiently is a good example. A lot of Duck Hunts lost games Saturday because they lost their lead since they have to work twice as hard 70-80% of the time only to watch a can hit at 140% not kill. So you get a myriad of situations versus any vortex characters where Tamushika or Brood lose a 150% lead based solely on the fact that they can't kill a killing blow and the game becomes even LONG before Duck Hunt ever reaches 150%. My opinion of this character was shaken this weekend and while Bayo ragelink comebacks were a part of it I saw enough close games with other characters to grasp how outclassed he can really be unless you're constantly outplaying your opponent.

The Duck Hunt stuff is an aside, but similar Sinji/Lima type things happened to them, and at a certain point, part of the blame has to go onto the character that's consistently struggling to kill a relatively light character in the 130-150% range. Bayo is just going to eventually get a higher cheese % rate because she has more time to do it against characters with less options.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I don't think that the meta will die if Bayonetta stays. I think it will just weed out the community from the "real community" (for a lack of better words, help would be appreciated).

-
Just found a 3-tweet chain link (a paragraph tweet broken up into 3 responses) by UltraDavid that I think that may be relevant (it really just sounds good to me so I'm sharing it).

https://twitter.com/ultradavid/status/948997829745233921

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Cloud loses and is replaced by secondaries like Corrin, Marth and Roy, because everybody and their mother knows the Cloud MU.

I think you're onto something here. Right now, I'd imagine Corrin might be a better secondary than Cloud, mostly because more people know the Cloud MU. Of course, once people learn the Corrin MU she won't be as valuable as a secondary. She does better than Cloud vs Pikachu, at least.

This might be a bit of a preemptive strike, but I want to briefly mention MkLeo's run at Genesis 5. I suspect some people will use it to justify Marth being top tier, but let's look at the facts: Outside of pools (where the most notable player he beat was Konga), MkLeo beat the following players:

Lima (Bayonetta), Zenyou (Mario), Dabuz (Rosalina/Bayonetta), Salem (Bayonetta), Mistake (Bayonetta). Marth might win (or at the very least, goes even with) Mario and Rosalina, so him beating them isn't too much of a surprise (and he's significantly better than Zenyou anyway). MkLeo is also currently a "Bayonetta slayer", either because of his playstyle or because Marth might go even with Bayonetta (even or slightly losing, I suppose). I believe he likely could have won with Corrin as well (which would have been sweet, I digress), assuming he's still keeping his Corrin fresh. It's a shame Cosmos was sick, I think he would have had a good shot at top 3, and a very good shot at top 8, but I digress. My point is, Leo didn't really run into any bad MUs for Marth, making Marth look a bit better than he is.

Marth is still easily top 15 though. I think he's a good high tier character, but not a top tier character. He's very viable.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I hope we can avoid the instance of reverting a ban on a character due to top player backslash.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Hey, guys!

I've been lurking these threads since smash 4 came out and would like to read your thoughts on a particular aspect of the bayo ban discussion.

I'm very surprised that the takeaway from Genesis 5 seems to be a reaction against bayo. For me, the big thing standing out from the tournament is Leo's amazing dominance against the character.

I'm not that great at analyzing smash sets (or playing them for that matter), but it didn't seem to me that Leo is abusing any of Marth's inherent strengths in the matchup, but rather abusing the risks that bayos have to take to overcome their character's shortcomings that do exist. It has been mentioned here that it is just a matter of bayos developing counterplay against him, but, for all the talk about how flexible a character bayo is (and the many different playstyles that she allows for), all these massively different top bayos are still being picked apart and dominated by leo all the same.

How come the direction of the discussion around bayo is whether she should be banned rather than how MKLeo deals with her? Why are top players tweeting about whether she will hurt the game rather than tweeting at leo and asking for help? It seems to me that something like "@Leo Can I get you lunch (I almost wrote "a beer", forgetting how crazy young that guy still is) so we can talk about that damn bayo matchup that's giving me so much pain?" would be a way better use of those 140 characters.

I guess my point is: what does Leo have that other top players don't? More time to grind the matchup? A special sparing partner for it? Just more skill (although that shouldn't be an excuse assuming every top player aims at being the best)?

 

[The-Technique]

Hey, guys!

I've been lurking these threads since smash 4 came out and would like to read your thoughts on a particular aspect of the bayo ban discussion.

I'm very surprised that the takeaway from Genesis 5 seems to be a reaction against bayo. For me, the big thing standing out from the tournament is Leo's amazing dominance against the character.

I'm not that great at analyzing smash sets (or playing them for that matter), but it didn't seem to me that Leo is abusing any of Marth's inherent strengths in the matchup, but rather abusing the risks that bayos have to take to overcome their character's shortcomings that do exist. It has been mentioned here that it is just a matter of bayos developing counterplay against him, but, for all the talk about how flexible a character bayo is (and the many different playstyles that she allows for), all these massively different top bayos are still being picked apart and dominated by leo all the same.

How come the direction of the discussion around bayo is whether she should be banned rather than how MKLeo deals with her? Why are top players tweeting about whether she will hurt the game rather than tweeting at leo and asking for help? It seems to me that something like "@Leo Can I get you lunch (I almost wrote "a beer", forgetting how crazy young that guy still is) so we can talk about that damn bayo matchup that's giving me so much pain?" would be a way better use of those 140 characters.

I guess my point is: what does Leo have that other top players don't? More time to grind the matchup? A special sparing partner for it? Just more skill (although that shouldn't be an excuse assuming every top player aims at being the best)?

This is pretty much what I've been saying. Of course someone will inevitably say "well that's just Leo cuz he's godlike" or "he plays top tiers so of course" but few people ever want to talk about *how* Leo is able to dominate Bayo the way he does currently, using a character that isn't top 10 no less.

Like take into account that he hasn't dropped a *single* set vs top Bayo's since he started using Marth against them (from September until now). The only "advanced" things he does with Marth are perfect pivots and maybe jab cancels once in a blue moon, and that's it. Everything else Leo does boils down to sound decision making and patient play. Smash 4 isn't particularly deep or complex as fighting games normally are, so what's holding us or other top players back from playing as cleanly and efficiently as Leo does in the Bayo matchup?

 

[Bigbomb2]

I guess my point is: what does Leo have that other top players don't? More time to grind the matchup? A special sparing partner for it? Just more skill (although that shouldn't be an excuse assuming every top player aims at being the best)?

I personally just think he's a robot. His reaction time and ability to pick out every little flaw in your gameplay is almost unmatched. Leo probably can practice a lot and with high level players in Mexico which helps as well.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

I personally just think he's a robot. His reaction time and ability to pick out every little flaw in your gameplay is almost unmatched. Leo probably can practice a lot and with high level players in Mexico which helps as well.

What I dislike about this argument is that he is NOT a robot (obviously). He is a flesh and bone smash player like everyone else, probably the best in the world at this moment. To dismiss his performance as exceptional and unattainable in the bayo discussion is a disservice to the game and to the community. Shouldn't we be eating it up and learning from him instead?

Also, I kinda feel bad for the guy. Were zero still playing, leo would have a real shot at being the best in the world. Now, he will probably end up being "the best in the world... since zero is not competing anymore".

 

[blackghost]

Hey, guys!

I've been lurking these threads since smash 4 came out and would like to read your thoughts on a particular aspect of the bayo ban discussion.

I'm very surprised that the takeaway from Genesis 5 seems to be a reaction against bayo. For me, the big thing standing out from the tournament is Leo's amazing dominance against the character.

I'm not that great at analyzing smash sets (or playing them for that matter), but it didn't seem to me that Leo is abusing any of Marth's inherent strengths in the matchup, but rather abusing the risks that bayos have to take to overcome their character's shortcomings that do exist. It has been mentioned here that it is just a matter of bayos developing counterplay against him, but, for all the talk about how flexible a character bayo is (and the many different playstyles that she allows for), all these massively different top bayos are still being picked apart and dominated by leo all the same.

How come the direction of the discussion around bayo is whether she should be banned rather than how MKLeo deals with her? Why are top players tweeting about whether she will hurt the game rather than tweeting at leo and asking for help? It seems to me that something like "@Leo Can I get you lunch (I almost wrote "a beer", forgetting how crazy young that guy still is) so we can talk about that damn bayo matchup that's giving me so much pain?" would be a way better use of those 140 characters.

I guess my point is: what does Leo have that other top players don't? More time to grind the matchup? A special sparing partner for it? Just more skill (although that shouldn't be an excuse assuming every top player aims at being the best)?

Leo gets her and dabuz gets her. Beating bayo is not a manner of special execution or some secret technique. Its sinple knowledge of her gameplan and what she is looking for to strike.
She is designed to inspire fear without blocking and irritate here opponent (both carry-overs from her source material). Watching dabuz and leo its clear they sinoly hold neutral and force bayo to initiate. I was watching genesis in a group no one thought mistake would win.
Tgis community has allowed ignorance to fester and scrubby mentality seeking bans to not be harshly shot down. This is the result. Community twitter fights about a character that didn't win the event.
Ive tried on this site to initiate talks about bayo actual matchups and gameplan and been met with nothing but venom. This character isn't killing the community people are also leaving this communuty because its juvenile and not worth the effort to improve, people have real lives. Im starting to lean that way myself. If bayo does well again in tournament this dicussion will continue even with no merrit.

 

[Bigbomb2]

What I dislike about this argument is that he is NOT a robot (obviously). He is a flesh and bone smash player like everyone else, probably the best in the world at this moment. To dismiss his performance as exceptional and unattainable in the bayo discussion is a disservice to the game and to the community. Shouldn't we be eating it up and learning from him instead?

Also, I kinda feel bad for the guy. Were zero still playing, leo would have a real shot at being the best in the world. Now, he will probably end up being "the best in the world... since zero is not competing anymore".

You know I'm joking right? Of course people analyze how he plays. They did it a few posts ago. Nobody at all is dismissing him, so I don't know where you pulled that from.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

You know I'm joking right? Of course people analyze how he plays. They did it a few posts ago. Nobody at all is dismissing him, so I don't know where you pulled that from.

You're right. That was a textbook straw man. My bad.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I don't know if this already exists, and I certainly don't have the knowledge or will to do it myself, but why don't you all make some sort of highly accessible database of bayo counterplay? It would have all the known kill confirms/setups, how to di stuff, how to smash di stuff, videos of good di vs bad di, moves from all characters that can beat her common neutral moves like witch twist or neutral air, anything you can think of for dealing with bayo.

It could start off as a thread in competitive discussion and grow into a website that should be posted anywhere and everywhere. I think that would be a better use of everyone's time instead of constantly debating whether or not the community should ban her. Maybe it could even eventually grow to include other tough characters like rosa, diddy, etc.

 

[|RK|]

Leo gets her and dabuz gets her. Beating bayo is not a manner of special execution or some secret technique. Its sinple knowledge of her gameplan and what she is looking for to strike.
She is designed to inspire fear without blocking and irritate here opponent (both carry-overs from her source material). Watching dabuz and leo its clear they sinoly hold neutral and force bayo to initiate. I was watching genesis in a group no one thought mistake would win.
Tgis community has allowed ignorance to fester and scrubby mentality seeking bans to not be harshly shot down. This is the result. Community twitter fights about a character that didn't win the event.
Ive tried on this site to initiate talks about bayo actual matchups and gameplan and been met with nothing but venom. This character isn't killing the community people are also leaving this communuty because its juvenile and not worth the effort to improve, people have real lives. Im starting to lean that way myself. If bayo does well again in tournament this dicussion will continue even with no merrit.

You realize both Dabuz and Leo hate Bayonetta all the same, right?

 

[Deleted member]

If I could think of Marth's current spot right now, would be top of high tier above Mario and Ryu. ( Maybe Corrin ).

You realize both Dabuz and Leo hate Bayonetta all the same, right?

Really? I thought Dabuz excelled at the Bayonetta match up. I mean, Zack did take a set off him in SouthApex2018.

Hey, guys!

I've been lurking these threads since smash 4 came out and would like to read your thoughts on a particular aspect of the bayo ban discussion.

I'm very surprised that the takeaway from Genesis 5 seems to be a reaction against bayo. For me, the big thing standing out from the tournament is Leo's amazing dominance against the character.

I'm not that great at analyzing smash sets (or playing them for that matter), but it didn't seem to me that Leo is abusing any of Marth's inherent strengths in the matchup, but rather abusing the risks that bayos have to take to overcome their character's shortcomings that do exist. It has been mentioned here that it is just a matter of bayos developing counterplay against him, but, for all the talk about how flexible a character bayo is (and the many different playstyles that she allows for), all these massively different top bayos are still being picked apart and dominated by leo all the same.

How come the direction of the discussion around bayo is whether she should be banned rather than how MKLeo deals with her? Why are top players tweeting about whether she will hurt the game rather than tweeting at leo and asking for help? It seems to me that something like "@Leo Can I get you lunch (I almost wrote "a beer", forgetting how crazy young that guy still is) so we can talk about that damn bayo matchup that's giving me so much pain?" would be a way better use of those 140 characters.

I guess my point is: what does Leo have that other top players don't? More time to grind the matchup? A special sparing partner for it? Just more skill (although that shouldn't be an excuse assuming every top player aims at being the best)?

I actaully think MKLeo is underestimated. To win a major at only fifteen is truly inspiring in my eyes, with all of the twenty and thirty year adults who have played the game probably before he was born. Either way, MKLeo has a shot of best player. But competing with Salem and Nairo is going to be a difficult war to overcome. Props to MKLeo for winning Genesis 5!

Edit: I think the same thing that I said for MKLeo could be said about Nairo in Brawl.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Really? I thought Dabuz excelled at the Bayonetta match up. I mean, Zack did take a set off him in SouthApex2018.

just because you do very well against something consistently doesn't mean you don't hate dealing with it

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

P PURGE THEM LIKE THE

A user has already started something like that. I just think he needs help advertising it.

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-juku-community-resource-website-launched.452553/

I agree with the need of a new site, even though Smashboards is suppose to be our home.

We have too many platforms that seperate the FGC community to me. Off the top of my head I can list: Smashboards, Twitter, Facebook, Discord (Smashcords), Google Docs, Smash Amino, YouTube, Smashworld, the other Smash 4 vod site who's name escapes me, and the 2 Smash Wiki sites to my knowledge.

 

[Minordeth]

You realize both Dabuz and Leo hate Bayonetta all the same, right?

While true, that doesn’t address anything about blackghost’s argument.

Also, there are plenty of characters in this game that people hate to play against. Sonic was probably numero uno before Bayo came along. Lucky for him that Bayo stole the toxicity spotlight.

 

[InfinitySoul]

P PURGE THEM LIKE THE

A user has already started something like that. I just think he needs help advertising it.

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-juku-community-resource-website-launched.452553/

I agree with the need of a new site, even though Smashboards is suppose to be our home.

We have too many platforms that seperate the FGC community to me. Off the top of my head I can list: Smashboards, Twitter, Facebook, Discord (Smashcords), Google Docs, Smash Amino, YouTube, Smashworld, the other Smash 4 vod site who's name escapes me, and the 2 Smash Wiki sites to my knowledge.

I cannot access it :

Smashboards - Error
You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.

Was the thread deleted ?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Hey, guys!

I've been lurking these threads since smash 4 came out and would like to read your thoughts on a particular aspect of the bayo ban discussion.

I'm very surprised that the takeaway from Genesis 5 seems to be a reaction against bayo. For me, the big thing standing out from the tournament is Leo's amazing dominance against the character.

I'm not that great at analyzing smash sets (or playing them for that matter), but it didn't seem to me that Leo is abusing any of Marth's inherent strengths in the matchup, but rather abusing the risks that bayos have to take to overcome their character's shortcomings that do exist. It has been mentioned here that it is just a matter of bayos developing counterplay against him, but, for all the talk about how flexible a character bayo is (and the many different playstyles that she allows for), all these massively different top bayos are still being picked apart and dominated by leo all the same.

How come the direction of the discussion around bayo is whether she should be banned rather than how MKLeo deals with her? Why are top players tweeting about whether she will hurt the game rather than tweeting at leo and asking for help? It seems to me that something like "@Leo Can I get you lunch (I almost wrote "a beer", forgetting how crazy young that guy still is) so we can talk about that damn bayo matchup that's giving me so much pain?" would be a way better use of those 140 characters.

I guess my point is: what does Leo have that other top players don't? More time to grind the matchup? A special sparing partner for it? Just more skill (although that shouldn't be an excuse assuming every top player aims at being the best)?

The bayo talk mainly about Mistake's playstyle in his Genesis run. He used a rather predictable playstyle, using Heel Slide and Witch Time at wrong times (though at right times too), yet still taken sets off of Dabuz, Nairo, and Salem. But considering that he 3-0'd the best Bayonetta Salem and MKLeo defeated him solidly at Grand Finals, people obviously over exaggerated and is taken this conversation to ban discussion heights (..... as usual )

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Wow, I could not access it either.
Here is a direct link to his site.

http://www.smashjuku.com

Strange that it got deleted, he just made that a couple of weeks ago.
That explains why I could not find it under "Your Content".

 

[WiFi]

I'd like to say that Marth is arguably one of the best characters to play against Bayonetta, as her range is effectively almost the same range as Marth's, meaning that Marth can consistently get tippers against Bayo. Also, it is important to mention that Bayo does bad on Final Destination, as we've seen Esam, one of the only other players who beats Bayos solidly, use the length of FD to take away Bayo's ability to platform camp, which is an arguably even greater asset to Bayonetta than her 0-deaths, as its something that anybody can do, and is put into practice very easily. Granted, I haven't seen Genesis 5, but Esam placed 7th, which is pretty good. MVD seems to be starting to outplace Esam though. Personally, when I get caught by a Bayonetta combo, I DI down diagonally while mashing airdodge. It works around 75% of the time. Also, it would be a lot easier to beat Bayonetta if Bayonetta mains weren't as tight lipped about their mindset and strategies while using Bayo. I haven't really seen any Bayo mains offering advice on how to counter Bayonetta's moves.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I haven't really seen any Bayo mains offering advice on how to counter Bayonetta's moves.

You clearly haven't spoken to Myollnir

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You realize both Dabuz and Leo hate Bayonetta all the same, right?

Doesnt take away the fact they excel against her.

Also, it would be a lot easier to beat Bayonetta if Bayonetta mains weren't as tight lipped about their mindset and strategies while using Bayo. I haven't really seen any Bayo mains offering advice on how to counter Bayonetta's moves.

Hey blackghost , mind introducing yourself to this guy right here?

Tbh, I don’t think banning bayo would do the game any good. It’s not going to suddenly make the game 100000x more enjoyable. People are getting tired. Competing for years on end for money and sponsorship and “E-sports” stuff is bound to tire someone out.

It’s my hypothesis, but I just think the game has gotten tooooo competitive. Melee doesn’t have the same issue because they’ve learned to deal with the harshness of their game, and has made them more loose and casual in that aspect. Smash 4 was born straight into a competitive scene from day 1, a huge one at that.

The scene could really use a season of more casual-orientated play imo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Doesnt take away the fact they excel against her.



Hey blackghost , mind introducing yourself to this guy right here?

Tbh, I don’t think banning bayo would do the game any good. It’s not going to suddenly make the game 100000x more enjoyable. People are getting tired. Competing for years on end for money and sponsorship and “E-sports” stuff is bound to tire someone out.

It’s my hypothesis, but I just think the game has gotten tooooo competitive. Melee doesn’t have the same issue because they’ve learned to deal with the harshness of their game, and has made them more loose and casual in that aspect. Smash 4 was born straight into a competitive scene from day 1, a huge one at that.

The scene could really use a season of more casual-orientated play imo.

Fortunately, Smash the Record exists.

 

[Minordeth]

Oh man, Mr. R. Usually has solid takes on things, but this:

Meanwhile Nairo can go for a million whiffed dash grabs and no one gives a shit, but as soon as a bayo main frequently goes for a move in which the risk/reward is ALMOST ALWAYS in his favor..

His neutral is lacking

Newsflash: You dont get 2nd at Genesis if ur neutral is lacking pic.twitter.com/Z97xEUpCWB

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 22, 2018

I realize why he doesn’t want people to discredit Mistake’s accomplishments, but this is a pretty stark example of circular reasoning.

The argument is basically:

Mistake can’t have a lacking neutral because he got 2nd at Genesis. He got 2nd at Genesis because his neutral is not lacking.

Numbered my responses for readability:

1.) The premise that you can’t get a high placing without a good neutral isn’t necessarily true. Especially in Smash 4.

2.) I’ve seen quite a few people speak up to defend Mistake, and their hearts are in the right place. He seems like a nice guy, he’s clearly got talent, and he gets unfairly maligned because he plays Bayo.

3.) But! His neutral is demonstrably poor for a top player. Heelsliding in neutral, with imprecise spacing, against Leo’s Marth, is bad neutral play. It’s not the only example, but it is the most egregious and indicative of how he plays neutral, in general.

4.) It doesn’t discredit his wins to point this out. His punish game and advantage state are top notch. It does make his wins look less impressive, though, because...

5.) The flip side of this, is that his higher ranked opponents failed to capitalize repeatedly and also played relatively poorly or inconsistently. I say this as someone who loves watching Nairo, Salem, and Dabuz.

Also, to answer the claim about Nairo’s play: when Nairo throws out random grabs in neutral, he is playing neutral poorly.

Regardless, attempting to say that Mistake’s neutral was good is ultimately coddling him as a player and insulating him from growing.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Oh man, Mr. R. Usually has solid takes on things, but this:

Meanwhile Nairo can go for a million whiffed dash grabs and no one gives a shit, but as soon as a bayo main frequently goes for a move in which the risk/reward is ALMOST ALWAYS in his favor..

His neutral is lacking

Newsflash: You dont get 2nd at Genesis if ur neutral is lacking pic.twitter.com/Z97xEUpCWB

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 22, 2018

I realize why he doesn’t want people to discredit Mistake’s accomplishments, but this is a pretty stark example of circular reasoning.

The argument is basically:



Numbered my responses for readability:

1.) The premise that you can’t get a high placing without a good neutral isn’t necessarily true. Especially in Smash 4.

2.) I’ve seen quite a few people speak up to defend Mistake, and their hearts are in the right place. He seems like a nice guy, he’s clearly got talent, and he gets unfairly maligned because he plays Bayo.

3.) But! His neutral is demonstrably poor for a top player. Heelsliding in neutral, with imprecise spacing, against Leo’s Marth, is bad neutral play. It’s not the only example, but it is the most egregious and indicative of how he plays neutral, in general.

4.) It doesn’t discredit his wins to point this out. His punish game and advantage state are top notch. It does make his wins look less impressive, though.

5.) The flip side of this, is that his higher ranked opponents failed to capitalize repeatedly and also played relatively poorly or inconsistently. I say this as someone who loves watching Nairo, Salem, and Dabuz.

Also, to answer the claim about Nairo’s play: when Nairo throws out random grabs in neutral, he is playing neutral poorly.

Regardless, attempting to say that Mistake’s neutral was good is ultimately coddling him as a player and insulating him from growing.

Not to debate against you because I haven’t seen the match in detail, but from what you’re describing, it sounds like imperfect textbook neutral. I think there’s another way to play neutral that goes against the basic principles of it. Take this for example:

In that match (or another commentary), it was noted kazunoko switched between scrubby tactics (wake-up SRK multiple times) and professional tactics. This “randomized” style keeps Daigo from being able to read him solidly. Expecting profesional-styled layers of mindgames and then received something a FG/500BP player would do.

Could be the case with mistake.

Could be. Idk for sure.

 

[Minordeth]

Not to debate against you because I haven’t seen the match in detail, but from what you’re describing, it sounds like imperfect textbook neutral. I think there’s another way to play neutral that goes against the basic principles of it. Take this for example:

In that match (or another commentary), it was noted kazunoko switched between scrubby tactics (wake-up SRK multiple times) and professional tactics. This “randomized” style keeps Daigo from being able to read him solidly. Expecting profesional-styled layers of mindgames and then received something a FG/500BP player would do.

Could be the case with mistake.

Could be. Idk for sure.

This is actually a good point and a good example.

Sometimes, that mixed style strategy can work. The problem is, you have to be really, really good to pull it off. It’s like professional actors doing bad acting.

If you aren’t good at it, you are opening yourself up to a massive amount of risk. It has to be calculated, because you still have to track how your opponent is responding, at a basic level.

The general point of such a play style is to be unpredictable.

I’d strongly disagree that Mistake was trying to pull that off, given his history of how he makes decisions in neutral and disadvantage.

Obviously, check out the VODs, though. Maybe you’ll pick something up that I didn’t?

EDIT: heh, watching that set again, and I’m like,”Man, Daigo was getting thrown off his timing so hard.”

 

[FeelMeUp]

Every good player throws out scrubby options once in a while as a "readiness" check. Even if something like a randy ZSS dashgrab misses, the opponent seeing your willingness to go for it means they'll feel less confident shielding in your burst range.
Most common example is when ZSS players run across the stage and dash grab at the very start of the game.
It's just another conditioning tool.

 

[Shaya]

2009: Look at what Ally's doing, why can't you all do the same? Smash community sucks and the players aren't willing to try overcome things (vomit). Ally's beating every MK consistently in a dominant fashion and has been doing so for ages*; although he lost to M2K in the first encounter, he obviously labbed and worked hard to give him the results he has now, why can't you? Why can't top players ask Ally what he's doing? [well tbf, his English was terrible at the time]. Maybe if the Meta Knight players told us how to beat them instead of keeping their strategies secret [??????????] we'd all do better!


2018: Look at what MKLeo's doing, why can't you all do the same? Smash community sucks and the players aren't willing to try overcome things (). Leo's beating every Bayo consistently in a dominant fashion and has been doing so for a while; although he lost to Salem/other bayos earlier on, he obviously labbed and worked hard to give him the results he has now, why can't you? Why can't top players ask Leo what he's doing? [well English isn't his primary language, but he's improved rapidly just like Ally did]. Maybe if the Bayo players told us how to beat them instead of keeping their strategies secret [] we'd all do better!

* And then he started losing; not to just top MK players, regular 'regional hero' ones. He starts to MK ditto all MKs bar the top level ones (even still would give it a go against them).

2010-11: Ally must've gotten lazy or lost his enthusiasm for the game (wonder why???); surely another player will be able to do what Ally was doing before. The fact that he was anti-MK the entire time despite winning doesn't mean anything. Of course MK players are going to adapt, and now we all need to adapt again while our scene numbers have halved over the last year. Oh look, another hero of the people who can beat MK without using MK; Larry, sudden Japanese invasion with buffering mastery, Ice Climber players, Salem; why is there only ever one or two out of a very talented top level pool of players and when they do it only lasted for a comparatively short amount of time??? Who knows.
2018-XX: .. ... ....


Top players are human, just like us they can be idiots. But just like you'd expect of yourself and people you know, they probably try a lot of things and work EXTREMELY hard despite the pissy belittling comments coming from all directions accusing them of not doing so. Top level players mingle and discuss the game in depth non-stop.
Leo is in a situation where his combination of smarts and reaction speed puts him on a level where only those with similar reaction speed and better smarts can overcome him. He's likely to overcome someone a decade his senior (M2K/Salem) because of physical capabilities. He's likely to overcome most other Bayo's he sees right now because he's a significantly more experienced player than them as well.
A sizable amount of teenagers maining Bayo are on the rise, they haven't been playing Smash at a high level like Leo has since practically single digits, but have the physical capabilities on top of an overwhelming character to beat most of the competition who can't at least match their reaction tier, and have many years ahead of them to catch up in smarts/smash skills.
Salem has shown us what smarts of this character is all about. Give the kids time to replicate.



Any competitor can have an unshakeable will to overcome an exceedingly difficult task; their shounen-spirit and war-rage pushing them to do something very few other people could (in just this specific video game). If you've been a champion of anything and have worked hard for it, you know what it's all about. But in reality for MK, that was because the level of play out there was still mostly low level (at top level) in comparison to the level of play VERY FEW INDIVIDUALS WILL EVER GET TO required to overcome it. Ally was a combination of the fastest reaction speed Smasher (years later I still can't believe this guy used to power shield raw fsmashes from Marth like 99% of the time [12f], his anticipation was just disgusting) in the world and insanely smart.
However, winning battles but always being on the losing side of the war eventually breaks the morale and spirit of anyone.
Meta Knight as a character was still a lot better than that. The players weren't matching the character's capabilities still, yet, despite all the issues they were already bringing.

MK's meta eventually was exhausted to the point that top players only tended to lose to other top player's MKs. Considering his player base, and the entire rest of the active player bases necessity to develop specifically against him, it still went on for years. MK has dominant options coming out of every orifice; as does Bayonetta.

 

[The-Technique]

Since we're bringing up Ally, let's talk about his performance in Genesis 5.

When he played against Salem a few tournaments ago, it was a grimy set to watch for sure. First thing Salem would do is retreat to platform and spam n-air, and Ally looked completely lost. And if you were to watch that set again, the matchup looks almost as bad as when Ally first met Wrath's Sonic in bracket. So of course Ally lost the set, and he didn't fare much better against other top Bayo's.

Ally is definitely not the person who's afraid to speak his mind, and to this day he openly expresses his dislike toward Bayonetta. His frustration is totally warranted, of course.

However, fast forward to PAX arena where he managed to beat Salem 3-1. His performance has improved visibly, but shouldn't it be the other way around? It's not like Bayos are resting on their laurels waiting for everyone else to figure out how to beat them. Of course in the same tournament he would lose to Salem in the runback 3-2, but he's still putting up a much better fight than before. Their set in Genesis 5 also ended in a 3-2 in Salem's favor.

What I'm getting at is that despite speculation that Bayonetta will follow the same path as Meta knight in terms of killing the scene, players have and can still improve and learn more regarding the Bayo matchup. And we can't just say Bayo is so overtuned that lower tier characters can't win when a G&W (seeded to go 0-2 no less) and Ike each took a set from top Bayos in Genesis 5. I just think its a shame that players like Elegant (double eliminated by Sheik) fell short of top 8, in addition to the players who were too sick to attend, we might have had a different story otherwise.

 

[The_Bookworm]

MK's meta eventually was exhausted to the point that top players only tended to lose to other top player's MKs. Considering his player base, and the entire rest of the active player bases necessity to develop specifically against him, it still went on for years. MK has dominant options coming out of every orifice; as does Bayonetta.

Your comment is definitely true to extent. However, I can't believe people is still comparing Bayonetta to the brokenness to Brawl MK.
Melee Fox wins the majority of Melee tournaments and the vast majority of players either main him or has him as a secondary.
"This character is so exciting! Shine on!"
Bayonetta, although being a popular pick in competitive play, only won 3 majors.
"This character is busted and cheap! Ban her!"
Granted that Fox requires far more skill to master and Bayo plays a defensive playstyle, but she is definitely the worst-best character in the series.

 

[Myollnir]

Comparing Brawl MK to Sm4sh Bayo is blatantly wrong.

You don't see players switching to Bayo and winning like they did with MK.

If you think Bayonetta is overcentralizing the metagame, I think you've forgotten how Brawl was. She's not even remotely close
to doing that.

MK had his own tier. Bayonetta doesn't.

If you want to ban her, do not make up competitive arguments, as the character very clearly doesn't deserve a ban from a competitive standpoint.

If you want to ban her, that's fine, but do it for the right reasons.
Do it because she makes the game less enjoyable to watch for a good portion of the community.
Do it because it is very toxic to have such a complex character considered as n°1 in a game where a vast majority of players can't even diffentiate Sonic's specials.
Do it because she's obnoxious to fight against.
Do it because you don't want a conversion-based character to thrive in smash (but don't dare to talk about how melee/64 is better then) and it doesn't match your point of view of how the game should be played.
Do it because you think it'll make the game last longer (spoiler : it won't).

You have the right to want her removed from the game. @Illusion. 's post was - even if I don't agree with everything - the first smart pro-ban post I've seen in the thread / Twitter.

But do NOT compare Bayonetta to something as powerful as Brawl MK to justify a ban. You're just being extremely dishonest.

 

[Shaya]

Bayonetta is a different character, this is a different game.
I'm devil's advocate-y and emotive by nature. No, it's not time to ban Bayo.
Whinging is driving force for a lot of people, surely not only smashers. I find it a pretty good skill, because it focuses my brain on what the issues are, it's forcing it to be on the forefront - it's generally reflective of how hard hard-working players are trying.
Unlike Brawl where maybe 15 characters could make a splash at most, this game has a lot more to it.
It's important to focus on the trends - is her dominance continually on the rise? Seemingly, yes.
I'm sure, just like climate-change deniers/statistically inept people, they'll look at single instances that arise to go "look she's doing worse now, we're saved" or "wow the coldest winter on record? TAKE THAT GLOBAL WARMING CHINESE CONSPIRACY MONGERS" and that'll be a tough battle for everyone to deal with in the future if discussion on this continues down a previously-trodden path. It'll beget ambivalence and apathy - which will likely mark the end of our chances of having a happy ending.
If you think Bayo's fine right now, that's fine. If you're adamant she'll be fine forever that's a problem (just like I'm not adamant we can't overcome her, despite the tone I have right now). The lines drawn are going to need to be different to Brawl, not only because it didn't work, but because there's a lot more to muddy the perception for it due to overall better balance and a much larger cast.

Smash5 will probably save us - I would say that's ambivalence and it's something I'm hearing quite a lot of right now by people who believe Bayo is an issue but don't like this drama. Let's hope it doesn't grow too much.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bayonetta is a different character, this is a different game.
I'm devil's advocate-y and emotive by nature. No, it's not time to ban Bayo.
Whinging is driving force for a lot of people, surely not only smashers. I find it a pretty good skill, because it focuses my brain on what the issues are, it's forcing it to be on the forefront - it's generally reflective of how hard hard-working players are trying.
Unlike Brawl where maybe 15 characters could make a splash at most, this game has a lot more to it.
It's important to focus on the trends - is her dominance continually on the rise? Seemingly, yes.
I'm sure, just like climate-change deniers/statistically inept people, they'll look at single instances that arise to go "look she's doing worse now, we're saved" or "wow the coldest winter on record? TAKE THAT GLOBAL WARMING CHINESE CONSPIRACY MONGERS" and that'll be a tough battle for everyone to deal with in the future if discussion on this continues down a previously-trodden path. It'll beget ambivalence and apathy - which will likely mark the end of our chances of having a happy ending.
If you think Bayo's fine right now, that's fine. If you're adamant she'll be fine forever that's a problem (just like I'm not adamant we can't overcome her, despite the tone I have right now). The lines drawn are going to need to be different to Brawl, not only because it didn't work, but because there's a lot more to muddy the perception for it due to overall better balance and a much larger cast.

Smash5 will probably save us - I would say that's ambivalence and it's something I'm hearing quite a lot of right now by people who believe Bayo is an issue but don't like this drama. Let's hope it doesn't grow too much.

Considering that Nintendo is praising the series with her games being released on the switch, it wouldn't be too much surprise that she returns to the next smash game. Considering what Sakurai did to Sheik, I bet she comes with a nerf unless it is a direct port.