Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MercuryPenny]

If Falco's speed and down air were buffed

why his down air? falco actually has some pretty solid pokes and useful aerials as-is, has 2 combo throws + a kill throw, and i believe someone already mentioned his frame 1 reflector making him a niche pick against zoners. if you gave him closer to average run speed and air speed he'd already be a fairly capable character.

 

[Deleted member]

why his down air? falco actually has some pretty solid pokes and useful aerials as-is, has 2 combo throws + a kill throw, and i believe someone already mentioned his frame 1 reflector making him a niche pick against zoners. if you gave him closer to average run speed and air speed he'd already be a fairly capable character.

His Down-Air was much better in Brawl/Melee than Smash 4. It is a lot slower and less powerful. Back in Brawl and Melee, it was a solid edge guarding tool and a good combo finisher, like Marth's down air. Falco's down air is a lot harder to land the spike and as I said and it is now only very situational instead of a good finisher.

Edit: His recovery is actually garbage, but two jumps is good, right?

 

[|RK|]

Ganon is really almost nothing like Falcon. Some moves are similar, sure, but he's so different it's not worth talking about them in the same breath.

As for Falco... AC barely plays Falco. And his recovery is among the worst in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganon is really almost nothing like Falcon. Some moves are similar, sure, but he's so different it's not worth talking about them in the same breath.

As for Falco... AC barely plays Falco. And his recovery is among the worst in the game.

It is predictable, but two jumps is pretty good. Why did I say it was a good recovery, I do not know.
I truly am an enigma.
Anyways, Falco is in the "easily gimped if not careful" area ( Cloud, Falco, Fox, Captain Falcon, Doctor Mario and Little Mac are some notable examples of this group ).

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Falco's issue isn't that he's not brawl/melee Falco and it isn't his frame data. It's that he has garbage mobility. What would be a great ground game is ruined by a lack of solid burst options, no way to make you approach, and almost no way to deal with disjoints. His poor neutral just feeds into his horrible disadvantage and he ends up stuck at the ledge or getting gimped at 80%. He lacks results at almost every level and his only relevant good matchup against M2 is up for debate

If Nintendo gave him the M2 treatment and gave him an insane buff to his mobility he could honestly be top 20, but since that's obviously not going to happen, he's just a nothingburger

sorry for any typos or grammar issues, I'm typing this on my phone

 

[Rizen]

Remember a few days ago, idk time has no meaning, we were talking about Luigi? I made the case he's weak to zoners. Here are perfect examples: Elegant 3-2 beats Captain Zack's Bayo but loses 1-3 vs Salem's Bayo at the Nairo Saga. The two bayo players have extremely different styles. Zack is an aggressive, flashy player and Salem chips away with bullet arts, platform camps and plays defensively. Salem shows how you fight Luigi. Luigi's frame data, combo potential and gimping are terrifying but he struggles to approach and zone break. Do not engage Luigi. This is why Luigi is high but not top tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Remember a few days ago, idk time has no meaning, we were talking about Luigi? I made the case he's weak to zoners. Here are perfect examples: Elegant 3-2 beats Captain Zack's Bayo but loses 1-3 vs Salem's Bayo at the Nairo Saga. The two bayo players have extremely different styles. Zack is an aggressive, flashy player and Salem chips away with bullet arts, platform camps and plays defensively. Salem shows how you fight Luigi. Luigi's frame data, combo potential and gimping are terrifying but he struggles to approach and zone break. Do not engage Luigi. This is why Luigi is high but not top tier.

this is the same relatively surface level observation people have been making since Luigi was legitimately amazing.
it's not that simple. it never is that simple.

if you play with elegant you'll see that not every character(hell, only a select handful of them) can execute a strategy like this. everyone else can be put in dangerous 50/50 guess situations where elegant will grab/corner you and blow you open. there are many specific positions in neutral where you can't play in an uninteractive way without risking him guessing an out that results in a reversal.
i don't want to spend too much time on this post, but here's a quick example using a scenario that happens countless times against luigi regardless of the character you are using:

https://youtu.be/g4B8A_6o9Jo?t=1m46s

you're trying to keep him away from you using one of your lower commitment options that tack on easy percent. in theory, you can keep him out forever and abuse his bad shield+aerial approach combo. in practice, Elegant(any good Luigi, really. Dakpo did it when I played with him for a bit) will guess/predict/react/whatever the timing on the option you choose and cause major damage by doing so.
luigi players also use rising fair as a conditioning tool to force you to use more falling aerials and not challenge him with rising ones, which shrinks the window of timings he needs to guess for powershields. this is especially noteworthy considering most safe spacing options in this game are aerials due to the horrible ground games apparent across most of the cast.
so if the luigi knows you can usually only box him out with aerials and doesn't have to worry about being contested from the ground, they can utilize crossup rolls and powershield option selects that much more ffectively.

 

[Rizen]

this is the same relatively surface level observation people have been making since Luigi was legitimately amazing.
it's not that simple. it never is that simple.

if you play with elegant you'll see that not every character(hell, only a select handful of them) can execute a strategy like this. everyone else can be put in dangerous 50/50 guess situations where elegant will grab/corner you and blow you open. there are many specific positions in neutral where you can't play in an uninteractive way without risking him guessing an out that results in a reversal.
i don't want to spend too much time on this post, but here's a quick example using a scenario that happens countless times against luigi regardless of the character you are using:

https://youtu.be/g4B8A_6o9Jo?t=1m46s

you're trying to keep him away from you using one of your lower commitment options that tack on easy percent. in theory, you can keep him out forever and abuse his bad shield+aerial approach combo. in practice, Elegant(any good Luigi, really. Dakpo did it when I played with him for a bit) will guess/predict/react/whatever the timing on the option you choose and cause major damage by doing so.
luigi players also use rising fair as a conditioning tool to force you to use more falling aerials and not challenge him with rising ones, which shrinks the window of timings he needs to guess for powershields. this is especially noteworthy considering most safe spacing options in this game are aerials due to the horrible ground games apparent across most of the cast.
so if the luigi knows you can usually only box him out with aerials and doesn't have to worry about being contested from the ground, they can utilize crossup rolls and powershield option selects that much more ffectively.

The fact that Luigi can get in does not change that a defensive playstyle is effective against him. I never said every character can execute these kinds of strategies but rather Luigi is weak to zoning. Of course cross overs happen and you can't keep him, or anyone, out forever. Stages are specifically chosen to force interactions. Zoning balances Luigi's immense rewards regardless.

The fact of the matter is Luigi has flaws that keep him out of top tier, exactly what I showed. Elegant is a beast who makes good calls and has optimized Luigi but overall Luigi lags behind top tiers. His air movement is worse than Link's and he can't PS everything. Rising Fair doesn't beat spaced disjoints. PSing is a read because it relies on the opponent's attack hitting shield; it helps Luigi of course but isn't the magic option that erases his traction issues. Fireballs also help immensely but that's if you challenge them. Salem in game 4 shows platform camping gives Luigi a hard time.

There's really no case for Luigi being higher than high tier. His results don't stack up and neither does his theory. There are already several characters more deserving than he is like Corin, Ryu and Marcina.

edit I watched the set. Look at game 1:
Void is generally controlling the game. He gets an early sv gimp off the side and ledge traps. Then at 1:31 void BFs at Luigi unsafely and gets tornado gimped. Luigi's frame data is the best in the game and his gimping is insane but void tried to engage and died at a low %. Around 2:10 void is keeping Elegant off balance going for 50/50s. Void is in control playing safe, he has the lead. Elegant is great at escaping the 50/50s but can't get stage control. Then at 2:40 void tries to challenge Luigi offstage without a confirm and is gimped at an even lower %. He engaged instead of playing safe and working with confirms. Void had the lead and control the entire game until he rushed in. This happens a lot across the set, void comes to luigi when he doesn't need to, wiffs a dash grab or something and is vortexed hard. Luigi's neutral is amazing if you come to him. Don't engage; make luigi come to you and punish his movements.

 

[Krysco]

Falco's issue isn't that he's not brawl/melee Falco and it isn't his frame data. It's that he has garbage mobility. What would be a great ground game is ruined by a lack of solid burst options, no way to make you approach, and almost no way to deal with disjoints. His poor neutral just feeds into his horrible disadvantage and he ends up stuck at the ledge or getting gimped at 80%. He lacks results at almost every level and his only relevant good matchup against M2 is up for debate

If Nintendo gave him the M2 treatment and gave him an insane buff to his mobility he could honestly be top 20, but since that's obviously not going to happen, he's just a nothingburger

sorry for any typos or grammar issues, I'm typing this on my phone

Problem with giving Falco the M2 treatment is that he started off as a slower clone of Fox. Giving him speed puts him more in line with Fox which I doubt they'll do. I kinda feel that's why they nerfed Doc's speed so hard going from Melee to Sm4sh, to make him that much more different from Mario. Sucks for Falco too cuz most clones were a simple case of sacrifice speed for power or vice versa but Falco sacrificed speed and power (he has a stronger fsmash but has always had a weaker usmash, uair and I wanna say dsmash too. Not sure about bair) for...a higher jump and some slightly altered moves like Blaster causing knockback and Phantasm spiking. That being said, outside of Smash 64, Fox has never had very noteworthy air speed and since Falco prefers the air and is...ya know, a bird, I'm surprised they haven't give him drastically better air speed. They shared the same air speed in Melee, Falco's was better in Brawl by a mere 0.003 and it's actually worse than Fox's in Sm4sh, being 0.93 to Fox's 0.96.

I can see Falco joining the likes of Ganon and Zelda as characters that will continue to suck due to their design since Falco was mostly viable in Melee and Brawl thanks to a very select few overpowered moves, moreso in Brawl's case.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Luigi's frame data is the best in the game

Even though Sheik's is overall better.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Gonna object tot his one. Rizeasu is probably doc's only notable top player, and iirc somebody mapped out who he used in the tokaigi qualifier and doc was only there for iirc one person, whereas you have Ganon who has representatives who are a little more-well known, including Gungnir who placed 17th at an Umebura, solo ganon, and took out kept and Earth.
Ganon definitely has more top rep than Doc.

You misread my comment. I know that Ganon has better representation than Dr. Mario.
Also Adom placed 9th at Syndicate 2017 with solo Ganon. I personally place Ganon above Dedede, simply because Dedede has a declining playerbase, results, and perspective, while Ganon has some reliable results himself.

Falco's issue isn't that he's not brawl/melee Falco and it isn't his frame data. It's that he has garbage mobility. What would be a great ground game is ruined by a lack of solid burst options, no way to make you approach, and almost no way to deal with disjoints. His poor neutral just feeds into his horrible disadvantage and he ends up stuck at the ledge or getting gimped at 80%. He lacks results at almost every level and his only relevant good matchup against M2 is up for debate

If Nintendo gave him the M2 treatment and gave him an insane buff to his mobility he could honestly be top 20, but since that's obviously not going to happen, he's just a nothingburger

sorry for any typos or grammar issues, I'm typing this on my phone

The truth is that Falco also has slow mobility in Melee and Brawl. However, he more than makes up for it with his lasers. The universal laser nerf in SSB4 significantly harmed Falco much more than Fox by a large margin, because he relies on it to make up for his slow mobility, force approaches, or approach reliably himself. Now he cannot do any of these things. His best and fastest move is definitely his back air, but relies on it very much, making it quickly stale, predictable, and only the first two frames of the move has KO power.

The fact that Luigi can get in does not change that a defensive playstyle is effective against him. I never said every character can execute these kinds of strategies but rather Luigi is weak to zoning. Of course cross overs happen and you can't keep him, or anyone, out forever. Stages are specifically chosen to force interactions. Zoning balances Luigi's immense rewards regardless.

The fact of the matter is Luigi has flaws that keep him out of top tier, exactly what I showed. Elegant is a beast who makes good calls and has optimized Luigi but overall Luigi lags behind top tiers. His air movement is worse than Link's and he can't PS everything. Rising Fair doesn't beat spaced disjoints. PSing is a read because it relies on the opponent's attack hitting shield; it helps Luigi of course but isn't the magic option that erases his traction issues. Fireballs also help immensely but that's if you challenge them. Salem in game 4 shows platform camping gives Luigi a hard time.

There's really no case for Luigi being higher than high tier. His results don't stack up and neither does his theory. There are already several characters more deserving than he is like Corin, Ryu and Marcina.

edit I watched the set. Look at game 1:
Void is generally controlling the game. He gets an early sv gimp off the side and ledge traps. Then at 1:31 void BFs at Luigi unsafely and gets tornado gimped. Luigi's frame data is the best in the game and his gimping is insane but void tried to engage and died at a low %. Around 2:10 void is keeping Elegant off balance going for 50/50s. Void is in control playing safe, he has the lead. Elegant is great at escaping the 50/50s but can't get stage control. Then at 2:40 void tries to challenge Luigi offstage without a confirm and is gimped at an even lower %. He engaged instead of playing safe and working with confirms. Void had the lead and control the entire game until he rushed in. This happens a lot across the set, void comes to luigi when he doesn't need to, wiffs a dash grab or something and is vortexed hard. Luigi's neutral is amazing if you come to him. Don't engage; make luigi come to you and punish his movements.

I agree. He deserves his current ranking, which is still very respectable.

Even though Sheik's is overall better.

Sheik has the best frame data in the game period. Definitely her best strength.

 

[Yonder]

If you want to see someone play the MU against Luigi well, Dabuz's Rosa vs Elegant's Luigi at the last big tournament. It was the only match that Elegant was shut down almost complely because Dabuz played 100% campy/defense. Yeah, powershields help a ton, and Elegant can get in still on most campers, but Rosa should the weakness still exists. I'd also argue that Rosalina is is worst MU, it has just never, ever gotten better. At least with Luigi vs Cloud, we've seen Elegant fare very well in it and demonstrates certainly strengths .

Luigi can't even get close enough to Rosa to cyclone spike her. And he doesn't have great ways to kill Luma.

And Rizen , it's Luigi's start up frame data that is the best in the game, excluding specials.



Random M2 vs Rosa MU fact: People don't seem to acknowledge much how if Mewtwo his Luma with a dash attack from a little bit more than center stage, it tumbles and dies at ANY %. You can't call it back either. Idk why that is but...yeah.

Also Mewtwo is faster than Rosa so she can't run away without Luma for very long,unlike vs Luigi if he happens to kill Luma.

 

[WiFi]

Right......and yet so wrong. Irrelevant should not be used for any character in the game, this kind of thought leads to underestimation of the opponent and/or not knowing the matchup, and that leads to upsets.
See: Rizeasu beating someone at the tokaii qualifier with doc, and beating people with shulk, same for kome beating people with shulk, the above Gungnir result, Komota beating Ally, Whiteout's performance, Zaki playing King Dedede

There is no irrelevant character in this game, that mindset needs to die.

So you think Jigglypuff is a relevant character? Sorry,but no. Even more so than Wario, the bottom tier characters get carried by players. I don't think anybody goes to a tournament and goes, oh boy, I have to watch out for that Zelda main (No offense intended Zelda mains), over, oh boy, I have to watch out for that Cloud main. That's what I meant by irrelevant.

 

[Spud125]

so cloud is second now...... GREAT!!!

 

[WiFi]

Ye

so cloud is second now...... GREAT!!!

Yeah, his results overcame Diddy's. Welcome to Smashboards.

 

[Spud125]

jaja, thanks! A long time ago he was 3rd.... why he is up now? just asking....

 

[Deleted member]

If you want to see someone play the MU against Luigi well, Dabuz's Rosa vs Elegant's Luigi at the last big tournament. It was the only match that Elegant was shut down almost complely because Dabuz played 100% campy/defense. Yeah, powershields help a ton, and Elegant can get in still on most campers, but Rosa should the weakness still exists. I'd also argue that Rosalina is is worst MU, it has just never, ever gotten better. At least with Luigi vs Cloud, we've seen Elegant fare very well in it and demonstrates certainly strengths .

Luigi can't even get close enough to Rosa to cyclone spike her. And he doesn't have great ways to kill Luma.

And Rizen , it's Luigi's start up frame data that is the best in the game, excluding specials.



Random M2 vs Rosa MU fact: People don't seem to acknowledge much how if Mewtwo his Luma with a dash attack from a little bit more than center stage, it tumbles and dies at ANY %. You can't call it back either. Idk why that is but...yeah.

Also Mewtwo is faster than Rosa so she can't run away without Luma for very long,unlike vs Luigi if he happens to kill Luma.

Mewtwo vs Rosalina is an interesting match up. Dabuz and Wadi think Mewtwo is even, while the Reddit community thinks Mewtwo wins the match up. Mewtwo actaully can have a large scary advantage when Rosa loses the Luma, and you know how easy Mewtwo slaughters a Luma.

 

[Spud125]

Mewtwo vs Rosalina is an interesting match up. Dabuz and Wadi think Mewtwo is even, while the Reddit community thinks Mewtwo wins the match up. Mewtwo actaully can have a large scary advantage when Rosa loses the Luma, and you know how easy Mewtwo slaughters a Luma.

JAJA, Mewtwo is great!!!

 

[WiFi]

I believe Rosaluma also loses to Wario, considering how easily Bike destroys Luma. If Rosalina shields against the bike, unlike other characters, who get minor shield damage, Rosalina gets the added risk of losing Luma, which forces her to jump, where Wario can punish her.

 

[Tizio Random]

From my experience as a Rosa player I think we lose the Mewtwo mu slightly. Mewtwo's mobility and hitboxes are absurd and he can still camp with Shadow Ball because unless we GP from the other side of the stage he can punish it easily.
Wario is a tricky match up but Rosa's hitboxes contest his gameplan easily. Bike is tricky but can be contested and he has very good tools (Bike + Waft at the ledge is crazy) so I think the mu is either even or slight advantage for Rosa.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

At least with Luigi vs Cloud, we've seen Elegant fare very well in it and demonstrates certainly strengths .

Honestly, if Elegant wasn't so good at powershielding, I doubt he'd be doing as well against Cloud players. I've had brief discussions with a few other Luigi players on Reddit, and they consider Cloud around the -1 to -2 mark (can likely come from not being as good as PS'ing).

 

[Minordeth]

If you want to see someone play the MU against Luigi well, Dabuz's Rosa vs Elegant's Luigi at the last big tournament. It was the only match that Elegant was shut down almost complely because Dabuz played 100% campy/defense. Yeah, powershields help a ton, and Elegant can get in still on most campers, but Rosa should the weakness still exists. I'd also argue that Rosalina is is worst MU, it has just never, ever gotten better. At least with Luigi vs Cloud, we've seen Elegant fare very well in it and demonstrates certainly strengths .

Luigi can't even get close enough to Rosa to cyclone spike her. And he doesn't have great ways to kill Luma.

I mostly agree with this with one important caveat:
Dabuz actually played super aggressively against Elegant.

In both sets at 2GGC Championship, Dabuz straight up rushed down Elegant to force him into the corners. This follows what FeelMeUp said. Dabuz, rather than trying to play keep-away, used key Luma jab spacing to cut off Luigi’s ability to cross up roll, and eliminate powershielding as an option. Elegant couldn’t use Fair either as Dabuz would Utilt or Usmash pretty much every aerial approach.

Once Elegant was at the ledge, it set up for excruciating pressure which made Elegant either retreat to ledge grab, or set up ledge guarding for Dabuz that Luigi couldn’t consistently get past. Once Luigi is in the air, Dabuz juggled him for days, and/or went deep offstage for aggressive guards.

Elegant tried to adjust by attempting to make Dabuz approach with fireballs, but Dabuz countered this by opening games with dash attack(!).

The only time Dabuz played campy was when he lost Luma. Literally as soon as Luma came back, he would go on the offensive again to cut off Elegant’s play. Given that Rosa is floaty and hard to combo, Elegant couldn’t get as much off of his grabs either.

It’s true that most of the ground games in Smash 4 are mediocre. A glaring exception is Rosaluma.

I believe Rosaluma also loses to Wario, considering how easily Bike destroys Luma. If Rosalina shields against the bike, unlike other characters, who get minor shield damage, Rosalina gets the added risk of losing Luma, which forces her to jump, where Wario can punish her.

I’d watch Gluttony versus Dabuz from 2017. You may be looking at these tools in a vacuum and missing some other options. For instance: Dabuz negates most attempts at Gluttony using the bike. He stops it with Utilt and Rosa’s jab.

Not Luma’s jab, Rosa’s jab.

 

[The_Bookworm]

jaja, thanks! A long time ago he was 3rd.... why he is up now? just asking....

Tweek, MKLeo, and komo is the reason, combined with a large playerbase.
Many professionals considers putting Bayo and Cloud in their own tier alone (a.k.a 5.99 tier). Considering that Diddy lost ZeRo, it seems rather likely now.

 

[Lord Dio]

*discussing rosa and m2 mu and how rosa likely doesn't win it*
Meanwhile, at Genesis 5, falln just beat WaDi lol.

So you think Jigglypuff is a relevant character? Sorry,but no. Even more so than Wario, the bottom tier characters get carried by players. I don't think anybody goes to a tournament and goes, oh boy, I have to watch out for that Zelda main (No offense intended Zelda mains), over, oh boy, I have to watch out for that Cloud main. That's what I meant by irrelevant.

Again, right, but also wrong. No character is irrelevant, I already told you that mindset needs to die.
Second, Wario? Why wario? Do you know how many characters there are in this game that people can say are carried by their players? I don't think you do, and let me tell you, some of those characters are mid and high tiers and people say they get carried by their players. The amount of characters you can look at and say "Their playerbase carries them" is INSANE. Most if not all of the lower half of the cast, and multiple characters in mid and high tier, and even arguably top tier.
Your next sentence is actually contradictory. "Who should I look out for, the guy who I said carries his character, a character matchup I'm not that familiar with, or the guy who doesn't carry his character, whose matchup I know pretty well. Which one should I look out for......hmm, yeah, I'll watch out for the cloud main, I'm totally not gonna lose to the zelda player because I don't know the matchup, he'll just lose because his character sucks".
Not to mention PR. The Dominican Republic's best player plays a "irrelevant" character, and just beat A PGR'ed top 50 player, and another Zard beat ANTi earlier. PR helps you figure out who to be more prepared for much faster than looking at the character does.

So yeah, no character is irrelevant. They're unviable, and viability =/= relevancy.

 

[Minordeth]

Really quick:
A character's relevancy is related to their viability. Their viability is dependent on their tools and matchups - at the highest level. At the top level, a character may not be viable, but they could be at a regional or local level. That character's relevancy is dependent on how broad of a meta you are examining. In other words, viability and relevancy are dependent on trends and game evolution across whatever level you are looking at.

In this game, basically every character is relevant between players, but that's not the same as being "meta-relevant."

A better way of looking at it is that every character is capable of beating you if you aren't prepared.

Jigglypuff is not relevant at the highest level because she is not viable. On the other hand, that doesn't stop Hungrybox from stomping you in pools.

 

[Lord Dio]

Captain L 2-0 Charliedaking
EDIT whoops meant to put that in the other thread

 

[Deleted member]

If Jigglypuff was a top tier in Smash 4, Hungrybox is almost guaranteed a top five player. He is just so good! Mew2King thinks he is the best Melee player overall, but that is highly debatable as Armada is generally viewed as the top player of Melee.

Really quick:
A character's relevancy is related to their viability. Their viability is dependent on their tools and matchups - at the highest level. At the top level, a character may not be viable, but they could be at a regional or local level. That character's relevancy is dependent on how broad of a meta you are examining. In other words, viability and relevancy are dependent on trends and game evolution across whatever level you are looking at.

In this game, basically every character is relevant between players, but that's not the same as being "meta-relevant."

A better way of looking at it is that every character is capable of beating you if you aren't prepared.

Jigglypuff is not relevant at the highest level because she is not viable. On the other hand, that doesn't stop Hungrybox from stomping you in pools.

This. It mostly depends on skill, not character. A Kirby can JV3 a Sonic, despite Kirby having a terrible match up against Sonic.

 

[NairWizard]

I mostly agree with this with one important caveat:
Dabuz actually played super aggressively against Elegant.

In both sets at 2GGC Championship, Dabuz straight up rushed down Elegant to force him into the corners..

forcing someone into a corner doesn't mean that you're playing aggressively, it just means that you're playing well. "defensive play" does not and should not mean standing on the far end of the stage waiting for your opponent. "camping" is slightly different since the word implies being stationary, but Dabuz was definitely playing defensively in these sets, and there were moments of camping too.

crouching at the edge waiting for Luigi to get up and then reacting to his first action with a d-tilt?

That's defensive play.

jabbing until Luigi makes an aerial motion and then reactively up-smashing?

That's defensive play.

jabbing and then pivot grabbing Luigi's rolls on reaction?

That's defensive play.


It's simple. The player who reacts is playing defensively. The player who initiates is playing aggressively.

Rosalina doesn't really have the tools to initiate, so it's not a playstyle choice for Dabuz, but let's categorize it properly at least.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

crouching at the edge waiting for Luigi to get up and then reacting to his first action with a d-tilt?

That's defensive play.

Well, a bait at least.

jabbing until Luigi makes an aerial motion and then reactively up-smashing?

That's defensive play.

Pressure.

jabbing and then pivot grabbing Luigi's rolls on reaction?

That's defensive play.

Also a bait.

 

[Minordeth]

forcing someone into a corner doesn't mean that you're playing aggressively, it just means that you're playing well. "defensive play" does not and should not mean standing on the far end of the stage waiting for your opponent. "camping" is slightly different since the word implies being stationary, but Dabuz was definitely playing defensively in these sets, and there were moments of camping too.

crouching at the edge waiting for Luigi to get up and then reacting to his first action with a d-tilt?

That's defensive play.

jabbing until Luigi makes an aerial motion and then reactively up-smashing?

That's defensive play.

jabbing and then pivot grabbing Luigi's rolls on reaction?

That's defensive play.


It's simple. The player who reacts is playing defensively. The player who initiates is playing aggressively.

Rosalina doesn't really have the tools to initiate, so it's not a playstyle choice for Dabuz, but let's categorize it properly at least.

You are oversimplifying it.

"Initiate" is a vague term. Initiate what? An attack button? A movement option toward the opponent? Reducing aggressive or defensive play, especially in fighting games, to an initiation/reaction dichotomy misses a vast amount of interactions that also characterize those two things.

If I initiate a perfect pivot back and my opponent rushes in to attack, is that an aggressive play on my part? Of course not.

What matters about your definitions has to do with what the players are initiating. If I initiate a series of attacks on my opponents shield to pressure them into making a more limited, but predictable decision, that is me being aggressive. I am attempting to limit their options with my attacks. Pressuring is pretty basic offensive play out of neutral.

Generally, you are right in that Rosa doesn’t have the tools to consistently initiate aggressive actions in neutral. Especially against the top tiers, who have good disadvantage and high mobility. Dabuz’s neutral revolves around whiff punishing and baiting in most match ups.

In the Luigi MU, Rosaluma can absolutely initiate attacks to pressure and limit Luigi’s options. Rosa can offensively condition him. He doesn’t have the disadvantage, or mobility, to effectively get in on her.
His main offensive tools in neutral, namely Fair, roll-ins, dash grabs, and fireball are able to be limited or shut down.

I went back and watched the sets again, and I’ll retract my statement that he was playing super aggressively. But he was playing more aggressively, in general, and switched to a more aggressive play style in games 2-4 in LQF.

Attacking to force an action or behavior that you can anticipate, also known as pressuring, is aggressive play.

 

[fufuplays]

dont really agree with dk/bowser being c tier and lucina being b tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Wow, we are getting a lot of new people in here, huh? Welcome to SmashBoards!

dont really agree with dk/bowser being c tier and lucina being b tier.

I am a little confused on the "Bowser and DK" should not be in C tier thing. Do you mean they are too high or too low?



If too high: Bowser and Donkey Kong have good results compared to the others in C tier. ZeRo thinks that they are top of high tier, and that is because they have a really good grab game, and some top players use them as counter-picks ( Nairo and Larry Lurr being prime examples ).

If too low: Bowser and DK still have large problems, like Donkey Kong being combo food and Bowser's defense game being atrocious for a high tier. They also have large abusable hurt-boxes, so keep that in mind.



If too high: Lucina and Marth are slowly being considered the same. Lucina's results reached an expodential growth after her buffs, going from bottom tier to high tier. Lots of top players use her ( Nairo, Mr. E, ZeRo ) over Marth ( Mr. E still uses Marth slightly more than her ). I like Lucina's placing, she is similar to Marth so she has similar qualities.

If too low: You are slightly right on that but I guess it is because she is generally still considered a "slightly worse Marth". Ah well.

 

[Rizen]

I mostly agree with this with one important caveat:
Dabuz actually played super aggressively against Elegant.

In both sets at 2GGC Championship, Dabuz straight up rushed down Elegant to force him into the corners. This follows what FeelMeUp said. Dabuz, rather than trying to play keep-away, used key Luma jab spacing to cut off Luigi’s ability to cross up roll, and eliminate powershielding as an option. Elegant couldn’t use Fair either as Dabuz would Utilt or Usmash pretty much every aerial approach.

Assuming it was this set:

Notice every interaction Debuz forced Elegant to come to Rosa. Zoners should always force stage control like Debuz did. Debuz would gain as much stage control as possible but stop outside Luigi's burst range and wall him. It's not exactly aggressive play so much as passive aggressive. Debuz exploited Luigi's weak approach game often forcing him to roll past luma's jabs into Rosa's displaying superb spacing knowledge. Luigi doesn't have an air approach with that terrible airspeed and range. Luigi has trouble vs zoners and Rosa's one of the best. It's no surprise Elegant has her and Mewtwo as Luigi's worst MUs.

 

[NairWizard]

You are oversimplifying it.

I don't think so.

In any situation in neutral, both players can't wait for their opponent to act; the onus is on one of the two to act first and expose himself to risk. Sometimes this is matchup-dependent, sometimes percent-dependent, but someone must eventually do something that could lead to either of the two taking damage.

Let's take the example of two Ganons dancing around each other in neutral on a flat stage. They're simply initial dashing and waiting to shield in the event of a Wizard's Kick, without moving far enough forward to be hit or get into each other's grab range. Ganon's dash grab is pretty slow, and Wizard Kick is reactable from any safe distance, so there's very little risk here; neither player will ever take damage. This is a defensive stalemate. When does this stalemate end? When one of the Ganons takes some kind of risk. If one of them runs forward and stands within the other's grabrange, the stalemate ends, at the cost of which the Ganon player who acted first left himself open to getting hit.

The initiator is then the one who first exposes himself to risk. This risk is the foundation of aggressive play.

Meanwhile, setting up a situation which enables you to react to your opponent's initiation with limited risk is the foundation of defensive play. Sometimes, this can look like an offensive option. Cloud spacing an immaculate up-air on your shield in Doubles with a teammate at his back can look very offensive, but it isn't necessarily--because what is the functional difference between (completely) safe shield pressure and shielding? Offense without any risk may as well not be offense. We don't call juggling a falling Captain Falcon with Mario an offensive play, because there's so little risk involved that you'd be silly not to juggle him.

Now note that I did use the word "limited" here. Obviously aggressive vs. defensive isn't a binary; options and sequences can sit somewhere in between, such as when an action is mostly but not completely safe. In this particular game, no option is completely safe. But there are two very obviously different styles of neutral gameplay. There's the mixups and read-based type of gameplay exemplified by Ally and ESAM, and the heavily reaction/positioning-based type of gameplay exemplified by Salem and MKLeo. Our #1 for years has been ZeRo, a player who mixes up both styles effectively. He uses a blend of offense and defense to win, so the two need not be mutually exclusive.

If I initiate a perfect pivot back and my opponent rushes in to attack, is that an aggressive play on my part? Of course not.

In this case you aren't initiating any kind of interaction, you're setting up for a future interaction. Perfect pivoting backwards, as well as things like SHAD, are intuitively understood to be defensive options, because of the risk involved. The opponent "rushing in to attack" is the risky play. Not your perfect pivot backwards.

What matters about your definitions has to do with what the players are initiating. If I initiate a series of attacks on my opponents shield to pressure them into making a more limited, but predictable decision, that is me being aggressive. I am attempting to limit their options with my attacks. Pressuring is pretty basic offensive play out of neutral.

Just because you are throwing out a hitbox doesn't mean that your play is aggressive, and limiting your opponent's (safe) options is exactly what defensive play is all about. Not limiting your opponent's options in any way is just bad defensive play.



Kirihara dash attacking Clouds in neutral is aggressive.

Dabuz spacing around Elegant's shield with a Luma jab is not.

 

[WiFi]

*discussing rosa and m2 mu and how rosa likely doesn't win it*
Meanwhile, at Genesis 5, falln just beat WaDi lol.

Again, right, but also wrong. No character is irrelevant, I already told you that mindset needs to die.
Second, Wario? Why wario? Do you know how many characters there are in this game that people can say are carried by their players? I don't think you do, and let me tell you, some of those characters are mid and high tiers and people say they get carried by their players. The amount of characters you can look at and say "Their playerbase carries them" is INSANE. Most if not all of the lower half of the cast, and multiple characters in mid and high tier, and even arguably top tier.
Your next sentence is actually contradictory. "Who should I look out for, the guy who I said carries his character, a character matchup I'm not that familiar with, or the guy who doesn't carry his character, whose matchup I know pretty well. Which one should I look out for......hmm, yeah, I'll watch out for the cloud main, I'm totally not gonna lose to the zelda player because I don't know the matchup, he'll just lose because his character sucks".
Not to mention PR. The Dominican Republic's best player plays a "irrelevant" character, and just beat A PGR'ed top 50 player, and another Zard beat ANTi earlier. PR helps you figure out who to be more prepared for much faster than looking at the character does.

So yeah, no character is irrelevant. They're unviable, and viability =/= relevancy.

Didn't mean to make it sound like an argument. Agree with the last statement though, Viability=/=Relevancy. So unviable characters like Jigglypuff are irrelavent. I'm mostly talking about the bottom 5 here, as they have almost no place in the meta. Anyway, you make a good argument, and I like arguing with intelligent people, but I really don't feel like talking about this anymore, so I'll leave you with this; a matchup I don't know well is still far from being lost. I play ZSS and Sonic, two top tiers, and you play Cloud, who is also top tier. So you can ask yourself if you are scared of that Zelda main, despite Cloud having a 70:30 matchup against her, which invalidates her viability in this meta, making her unimportant, therefore, irrelavent.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I really wish there were more Jr reps in tournament. Gotta miss Tweek's hype results with Jr back in early days of smash 4's life.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't think so.

In any situation in neutral, both players can't wait for their opponent to act; the onus is on one of the two to act first and expose himself to risk. Sometimes this is matchup-dependent, sometimes percent-dependent, but someone must eventually do something that could lead to either of the two taking damage.

Let's take the example of two Ganons dancing around each other in neutral on a flat stage. They're simply initial dashing and waiting to shield in the event of a Wizard's Kick, without moving far enough forward to be hit or get into each other's grab range. Ganon's dash grab is pretty slow, and Wizard Kick is reactable from any safe distance, so there's very little risk here; neither player will ever take damage. This is a defensive stalemate. When does this stalemate end? When one of the Ganons takes some kind of risk. If one of them runs forward and stands within the other's grabrange, the stalemate ends, at the cost of which the Ganon player who acted first left himself open to getting hit.

The initiator is then the one who first exposes himself to risk. This risk is the foundation of aggressive play.

Meanwhile, setting up a situation which enables you to react to your opponent's initiation with limited risk is the foundation of defensive play. Sometimes, this can look like an offensive option. Cloud spacing an immaculate up-air on your shield in Doubles with a teammate at his back can look very offensive, but it isn't necessarily--because what is the functional difference between (completely) safe shield pressure and shielding? Offense without any risk may as well not be offense.

Now note that I did use the word "limited" here. Obviously aggressive vs. defensive isn't a binary; options and sequences can sit somewhere in between, such as when an action is mostly but not completely safe. In this particular game, no option is completely safe. But there are two very obviously different styles of neutral gameplay. There's the mixups and read-based type of gameplay exemplified by Ally and ESAM, and the heavily reaction/positioning-based type of gameplay exemplified by Salem and MKLeo. Our #1 for years has been ZeRo, a player who mixes up both styles effectively. He uses a blend of offense and defense to win, so the two need not be mutually exclusive.

Just because you are throwing out a hitbox doesn't mean that your play is aggressive, and limiting your opponent's (safe) options is exactly what defensive play is all about. Not limiting your opponent's options in any way is just bad defensive play.

Kirihara dash attacking Clouds in neutral is aggressive.

Dabuz spacing around Elegant's shield with a Luma jab is not.

And Dabuz lunar landing to dash attack Elegant to open a game is aggressive.

Pressuring opponents and limiting options can be both aggressive or defensive. It is risk dependent (although, it is more often than not defensive). Larry pressuring shields with Utilt or non-autocanceled Dair is most certainly not safe, but the reward is high if his opponent chooses to drop shield or mistime a counter attack.

And your are right: generally, Dabuz jabbing Elegant with Luma from a safe distance is defensive play. I stated it was “offensive” which it is, but it is most certainly not “aggressive” which is the term we are discussing. So I retract that statement as well.

Where Dabuz started to play more aggressively was in his landings, trying to directly contest Luigi with Dair rather than retreating to the ledge, or going deep offstage to get the gimp, which occasionally cost him. He would also go for unsafe jabs for the knock back to attempt to get Elegant offstage.

Regardless, I took back my statement about how aggressive Dabuz was being in the previous post.

However, your original statement was:

It's simple. The player who reacts is playing defensively. The player who initiates is playing aggressively.

I said that statement was over simplifying it, as the kind of action the initiator takes determines if it is aggressive or not.

You then disagree(?) that you are over simplifying it, but then proceed to introduce the concept of risk into the equation, which is far more nuanced. You then proceed to state that just because a player is making an offensive move doesn’t mean they are playing aggressively.

In other words: the kind of action initiated determines if the play is aggressive.

So, we kind of agree anyway? What.

 

[Rizen]

Didn't mean to make it sound like an argument. Agree with the last statement though, Viability=/=Relevancy. So unviable characters like Jigglypuff are irrelavent. I'm mostly talking about the bottom 5 here, as they have almost no place in the meta. Anyway, you make a good argument, and I like arguing with intelligent people, but I really don't feel like talking about this anymore, so I'll leave you with this; a matchup I don't know well is still far from being lost. I play ZSS and Sonic, two top tiers, and you play Cloud, who is also top tier. So you can ask yourself if you are scared of that Zelda main, despite Cloud having a 70:30 matchup against her, which invalidates her viability in this meta, making her unimportant, therefore, irrelavent.

IDK if you were around during brawl but Zelda started out something like 17 places higher on the tier list. Then people learned how to fight her. Relevant or not, you have to know MUs. Don't forget Zero lost to Prince Raymin's Palutena.

 

[NairWizard]

And Dabuz lunar landing to dash attack Elegant to open a game is aggressive.

indeed, that is an aggressive maneuver.

Pressuring opponents and limiting options can be both aggressive or defensive. It is risk dependent

yes, agreed, that's what I said in my second post

I said that statement was over simplifying it, as the kind of action the initiator takes determines if it is aggressive or not.

What I should have said was, "The aggressor is the player who initiates a situation that is likely to translate into a transition out of the neutral state, not necessarily in the initiator's favor." Perfect pivoting backwards doesn't seem to be "initiating" anything to me; it seems to be, rather, disengaging and waiting for the opponent to initiate. You're right that initiate may have been a vague word to use here; that was why I clarified. I disagreed that it was oversimplification.

You then proceed to state that just because a player is making an offensive move doesn’t mean they are playing aggressively.

Rather, I said that using a hitbox doesn't imply aggression. Elegant's aggressive play often comes down to rolling behind the opponent, an action which has no hitbox at all.

Where we disagreed was on your assertion that:

"If I initiate a series of attacks on my opponents shield to pressure them into making a more limited, but predictable decision, that is me being aggressive. I am attempting to limit their options with my attacks. Pressuring is pretty basic offensive play out of neutral."

I didn't think that this was necessarily being aggressive, but you've already retracted the statement.

Where Dabuz started to play more aggressively was in his landings, trying to directly contest Luigi with Dair rather than retreating to the ledge, or going deep offstage to get the gimp, which occasionally cost him. He would also go for unsafe jabs for the knock back to attempt to get Elegant offstage.

My original point was that Dabuz wasn't as aggressive as you were claiming, with which you seem to agree.

I can agree that Dabuz' play got progressively more aggressive throughout the set, and sometimes it did indeed cost him. I would hardly characterize his overall play in either set as aggressive, however. He was playing defensively, for the majority of the set, because that's how Rosalina must play (Kirihara's strange antics aside).

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

That was wonderful you two. I agree with both of ya'll

Now, what do you guys think of using attacks from a safe distance to control space (aerials come to mind) and to limit/condition your opponent's approach options?