Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Bigbomb2 · Jan 16, 2018

Don't think Ryu will be going anywhere. Those sword legs of his are too good. If jumping wasn't such a commitment for him, I shudder to think of what kind of monster he'd be.

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

ShinyLegendary said:
: Some say Pac-Man is a bottom five character ( ESAM and Mr. R ), or some say he has great potential to rise into mid tier because of Sinji. The way I see it, Sinji is the one who mostly carries Pac-Man to where he is today. People assume that Pac-Man relies way too much on the fruit but the way I see it, not true.

Could I also bring up TEA from Japan?

(Gee, I hope I don't get terminated this time around...)

WiFi · Jan 16, 2018

When was the last time Ryu actually did something in an S-tier tournament? I think it was Darkshad at GTX right?

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

Is Super Famicom an S tier? If so, Darkshad placed top 16 there.

Nu~ · Jan 16, 2018

Skeeter Mania said:
Could I also bring up TEA from Japan?

(Gee, I hope I don't get terminated this time around...)

Tea is a living legend who’s playstyle resembles that of a master jester. He could hands down change public perception of the char if he came to the US, I’m certain of it.

Like, this is the same dude who went even with Edge for Christ’s sake! Mr.R himself said that it was Tea who gave him the most trouble out of all the Japanese players he fought while training in Japan last year.

Baby_Sneak Aye, who are you talking about? I certainly don’t remember that overzealous Pac-Man main with a telling name :denzel:

Finh009 · Jan 16, 2018

Pools and Projected Bracket for EVO Japan are now out!
Since they aren't any notable matches in R1 of pools, I'll skip to R2 of pools.

WF: KEN

vs Sukekokko

shky

in losers.

WF: bAhuto

vs Zackray

Tru4

in losers.

WF: Sigma

vs JJROCKETS

NerfDon

in losers.

WF: TOWA (Atelier)

vs Shogun

Extra

in losers.

Also Notable: RYO

WF: takera

vs Fuwa

PSI FORCE

in losers.

WF: Eim

vs FILIP

Popi

in losers.

WF: AC

vs MASA

2GG | Strides

in losers.

Also Notable: Uto

WF: K9sbruce

vs Zaki

Jitio

in losers.

WF: RSZ | Umeki

vs Shiki

L3 Exo

in losers.

Also Notable: Nanchan

WF: T

vs kept

VGBC | aMSa

in losers.

Also Notable: Dainosuke

WF: Masashi

vs Yaminabe

EVERYBODY POOPS

in losers.

WF: Ri-ma

vs Lea

MVG | D. Disciple

in losers.

WF: kenkenpa

vs KaPMk

Xiivi

in losers.

WF: eM | Zenyou

vs Compact

PenguinDrum

in losers.

WF: Kuro

vs CL | Legit

Xzax

in losers.

Also Notable: Nojinko

WF: ikep

vs Some

CL | DSS

in losers.

WF: Echo Fox | MVG | MKLeo

vs Ke-ya

Songn

in losers.

WF: Raito

vs Oisiitofu

Satau

in losers.

WF: Kome

vs Es

Kei

in losers.

Also Notable: Onpu

WF: PG | MVD

vs Matcha

MM

in losers.

WF: PG | ESAM

vs Yuzu

YOC

in losers.

WF: Earth

vs Rain

Yakara

in losers.

WF: Kirihara

vs Masha

pu55yk1ng

in losers.

Also Notable: Tamushika

Choco

vs Suinoko

JILL

in losers.

Abadango

vs Lickey★

Shu

in losers.

Also Notable: SHI-G | Aiba

2GG | Komorikiri

vs Brood

Nariyasu

in losers.

WF: IMT | ANTi

vs Kisha

Ramperu

in losers.

Also Notable: Mr. II

WF: DNG | Nietono

vs Nyanko

Gackt

in losers.

WF: Rotsuku

vs Mao

BT. YAMATO

in losers.

WF: DNG | Kameme

vs taranito

Paseriman

in losers.

Also Notable: Pon

WF: Tsu-

vs Mattun

Obarin

in losers.

Also Notable: Tarakotori

WF: Selcia

vs Pichi

Boozer

in losers.

Note: Shuton

and P1 | Tweek

cancelled.

Wintermelon43 · Jan 16, 2018

Skeeter Mania said:
Could I also bring up TEA from Japan?

(Gee, I hope I don't get terminated this time around...)

He's great too, but he doesn'r attend much.

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

Nu~ said:
This is the same dude who went even with Edge for Christ’s sake! Mr.R himself said that it was Tea who gave him the most trouble out of all the Japanese players he fought while training in Japan last year.

To be fair, Pac-Man also has a pretty good Diddy matchup.

InfinitySoul · Jan 16, 2018

Shaya said:
Wew.
OLD STUFF POSTED EMBARRASSMENT.

People definitely learned the Ryu match up. Trela is still/was a God; when he wants to be (I'm a Trela fan, no bias ever). Ryu can still do things and has room to grow, but mobility scaling/walling him and the development of playing around his blind spots diminished his intensity a bit. Ryu is obviously a lot more difficult a character at top level then what seemed implied. Bayo and Cloud meta advancement and prevalence rose even further.

I probably wrote that post in like 10 minutes, these days they take forever #_#

What blind spots are you talking about ?

The_Bookworm · Jan 16, 2018

Finh009 said:
Pools and Projected Bracket for EVO Japan are now out!
Since they aren't any notable matches in R1 of pools, I'll skip to R2 of pools.

WF: KEN vs Sukekokko

shky in losers.

WF: bAhutovs Zackray

Tru4 in losers.

WF: Sigma vs JJROCKETS

NerfDon in losers.

WF: TOWA (Atelier) vs Shogun

Extra in losers.

Also Notable: RYO

WF: takera vs Fuwa

PSI FORCE in losers.

WF: Eim vs FILIP

Popi in losers.

WF: AC vs MASA

2GG | Strides in losers.

Also Notable: Uto

WF: K9sbruce vs Zaki

Jitio in losers.

WF: RSZ | Umeki vs Shiki

L3 Exo in losers.

Also Notable: Nanchan

WF: T vs kept

VGBC | aMSa in losers.

Also Notable: Dainosuke

WF: Masashi vs Yaminabe

EVERYBODY POOPS in losers.

WF: Ri-ma vs Lea

MVG | D. Disciple in losers.

WF: kenkenpa vs KaPMk

Xiivi in losers.

WF: eM | Zenyou vs Compact

PenguinDrum in losers.

WF: Kuro vs CL | Legit

Xzax in losers.

Also Notable: Nojinko

WF: ikep vs Some

CL | DSS in losers.

WF: Echo Fox | MVG | MKLeo vs Ke-ya

Songn in losers.

WF: Raito vs Oisiitofu

Satau in losers.

WF: Kome vs Es

Kei in losers.

Also Notable: Onpu

WF: PG | MVD vs Matcha

MM in losers.

WF: PG | ESAM vs Yuzu

YOC in losers.

WF: Earth vs Rain

Yakara in losers.

WF: Kirihara vs Masha

pu55yk1ng in losers.

Also Notable: Tamushika

Choco vs Suinoko

JILL in losers.

Abadango vs Lickey★

Shu in losers.

Also Notable: SHI-G | Aiba

2GG | Komorikiri vs Brood

Nariyasu in losers.

WF: IMT | ANTi vs Kisha

Ramperu in losers.

Also Notable: Mr. II

WF: DNG | Nietono vs Nyanko

Gackt in losers.

WF: Rotsuku vs Mao

BT. YAMATO in losers.

WF: DNG | Kameme vs taranito

Paseriman in losers.

Also Notable: Pon

WF: Tsu- vs Mattun

Obarin in losers.

Also Notable: Tarakotori

WF: Selcia vs Pichi

Boozer in losers.

Note: Shuton and P1 | Tweek cancelled.

Too bad Shuton and Tweek are not going.
Do you guys know why the Japanese Ness player MASA is a legend in my book? It is because he plays the game with a 3ds. :0
Also, what do you guys feel about HugS and Lucky getting signed in Team Dignitas?

WiFi · Jan 16, 2018

I actually totally forgot about Japanese Evo, its going to be really exciting considering Japan has far more character diversity than the USA. So many high, mid, and lower tier mains will be given a chance to show the true potential of their characters. I feel Japanese players are far more dedicated to their mains than most US and European players, what do you think?

edit: Also, the Tier List page still has the old V3 tier list displayed. Not sure if people have realized this yet.

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

WiFi said:
I actually totally forgot about Japanese Evo, its going to be really exciting considering Japan has far more character diversity than the USA. So many high, mid, and lower tier mains will be given a chance to show the true potential of their characters. I feel Japanese players are far more dedicated to their mains than most US and European players, what do you think?

Does this tournament have a pot bonus?

Wintermelon43 · Jan 16, 2018

Skeeter Mania said:
Does this tournament have a pot bonus?

Japanese tournaments can't have pot bonuses, it's aganist their gambling laws

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

Wintermelon43 said:
Japanese tournaments can't have pot bonuses, it's aganist their gambling laws

What about any other monetary prize?

Shaya · Jan 16, 2018

InfinitySoul said:
What blind spots are you talking about ?

Dtilt/Dsmash hit low but a lot of his moves can miss crawlers/crouchers (crouch canceling some of his tilts will allow you to get a shield up/buffer a dodge faster). Focus can whiff low to the ground too (also power shielding the hit is 'feasible')
This applies to his aerials as well. You can think of getting towards his back foot below him as 'freedom', because nair don't work there (as well). This is a Brawl Squirtle weakness, dashing under/through into pivot grab or imagination
In air to air, aiming for his chest/torso is good; with zero suit and similar beating Ryu mid air is a lot easier if you're at and aiming around the chest height or are slightly above him (not so much that up air becomes a thing, of course) - everyone has a better fast fall than he does. Whiff punishing by getting slightly above him then ffing down with an aerial. Being outside of his range vertically while in horizontal range of your tools means you win.

The key thing about back air is that it shifts him forward from centre SIGNIFICANTLY, giving a huge semblance of 'omg this range, wtf?', but this means getting to his back leg is simpler as his animation is doing the work for you.
Furthermore knowing that he shifts so far, if a Ryu is facing backwards you need to swing your stuff from further away, and you'll be fine (or again, focus on coming in from above so you aren't challenging it horizontally). His back air is essentially his forward smash but mid air. The shift will seem like cheating until you're aware of it.

valakmtnsmash4 · Jan 16, 2018

The_Bookworm said:
Also, what do you guys feel about HugS and Lucky getting signed in Team Dignitas?

This is a smash 4 oriented thread not melee.

The-Technique · Jan 16, 2018

There was a problem fetching the tweet

ANTi and Ally with some choice words regarding Mario's potential, and a few other Mario mains chiming in.

|RK| · Jan 16, 2018

Larry's new Fox MU chart:

My current opinion of Fox's match ups pic.twitter.com/dEZyTpa5ds
— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 16, 2018

Nathan Richardson · Jan 16, 2018

Tbh everytime I faced a fox in FG my typical first reaction is 'hoo boy this is going to be hard' mainly because in FG zard can't really approach properly. He can try a flare blitz when fox busts out his blaster but fox shuts down flamethrower with his reflector as well as rock smash. Those are a couple of zard's best moves so zard has to rely on fox's linear recovery to get anything done.
I can see how it's a slight advantage anywhere else though because zard's tilts and usmash allows zard to shark under shallow platforms like battlefield.

The_Bookworm · Jan 16, 2018

|RK| said:
Larry's new Fox MU chart:

My current opinion of Fox's match ups pic.twitter.com/dEZyTpa5ds
— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 16, 2018

It is actually not a bad matchup chart at all!
I do think Fox vs Lucario is worse though. XD
Every time Tsu- runs into Larry in bracket, it never ends well for him.

The-Technique said:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

ANTi and Ally with some choice words regarding Mario's potential, and a few other Mario mains chiming in.

And the "Mario is not top tier" meme continues into 2018. XD

Minordeth · Jan 16, 2018

The-Technique said:
There was a problem fetching the tweet

ANTi and Ally with some choice words regarding Mario's potential, and a few other Mario mains chiming in.

I mean, on the one hand, I agree with Anti and Ally: Mario is not top 10. On the other hand, Zenyou is right: suboptimal is suboptimal whether you go 0-2 or win a major.

This could easily be a case of sample size bias. Zenyou attends weeklies all the time, because they are common. The amount of them allows more opportunities for optimized play.

S tiers, by their nature, are not common. Given enough of them, it’s not hard at all to see that he could do the same combos and optimization.

Regardless, no matter how awesome his optimization, Mario still has limits that hold him back more than other characters. But it can help him make the most out of his opportunities.

Rizen · Jan 16, 2018

Nathan Richardson said:
Tbh everytime I faced a fox in FG .

If you can't make it to live things use this site for wifi. You'll find better players and closer connections for less lag.
https://www.smashladder.com/netplay

Larry's chart looks good.

Food for thought: Mario consistently outplaces Rosa. I'm not saying Mario's better and I know he's popular. IMO Mario is lower top 10 under her and ZSS. Something to consider about popular top tiers vs ones with smaller player bases is their ease of access lets more players win with them, hence placing better. It ties into top level vs mid-level play. Mario is better at mid levels (CF too), unless I'm missing something. How much should that weigh on a tier list? Should we have a separate list for top level play?

WiFi · Jan 16, 2018

Eh, I live on the side of the mountain so I always end up with worse lag than my opponent. Also, one of the only tournament scenes in my area just stopped so I have nothing to compete against. I haven't played a legitimately skilled player in over a year.
Anyways, to be back on topic, I saw a lot of negatives about Ryu before and now I'm seeing positives, which is confusing. I personally that Ryu's abilities don't warrant him a spot in top tier but he is a very unique and technically complex character. He just doesn't fit into what I call the mobility meta. Every top tier character is either average speed in one category or fast in another. For example, while Bayonetta doesn't have a particularly fast runspeed, she can make up for it through an aerial side-b, coupled with her angled down side-b, make a lot faster than she seems. Diddy slides a bit while running and has Monkey Flip to make him seem faster. What I'm trying to convey here is that Smash brothers as a game gives more power to fast characters, therefore, the faster a character is, the more likely they are to be top tier. The only exception to this rule was Brawl Sonic, but even Brawl Sonic was able to gain better results than many characters above him.

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

Minordeth said:
suboptimal is suboptimal whether you go 0-2 or win a major.

Your point?

Minordeth · Jan 16, 2018

Skeeter Mania said:
Your point?

In this context, Zenyou is pointing out that Ally and Anti have won majors without actually having optimized Mario’s game. His, and other Mario mains points, are that now that Ally and Anti are lamenting how hard it is to play Mario, that both the aforementioned players still haven’t tried to implement optimizations.

Skeeter Mania · Jan 16, 2018

Minordeth said:
In this context, Zenyou is pointing out that Ally and Anti have won majors without actually having optimized Mario’s game. His, and other Mario mains points, are that now that Ally and Anti are lamenting how hard it is to play Mario, that both the aforementioned players still haven’t tried to implement optimizations.

If they're that pessimistic, why don't they just drop Mario for somebody different (and I think there was one time ANTi was seriously considering switching to Sheik)?

TDK · Jan 16, 2018

Finh009 said:
EVERYBODY POOPS in losers.

Okay, I've seen some weird names, but this takes it.

Rizen said:
Food for thought: Mario consistently outplaces Rosa.

"Oh wow the easy popular character is outplacing the more difficult, unpopular character" is basically telling people water is wet. Rosa's the Melee Puff of this game in the sense that nobody wants to play her because she's lame/boring/defensive/whatever whereas Mario's got all these flashy combos and is more aggressive while also being an easier character. So really, it's not surprising in the slightest. It doesn't make Mario better than Rosa (or Rosa as bad as you like to claim).

Minordeth · Jan 16, 2018

Skeeter Mania said:
If they're that pessimistic, why don't they just drop Mario for somebody different (and I think there was one time ANTi was seriously considering switching to Sheik)?

They don’t think Mario is awful. Just not top 10. Also, Ally has noted how hard it is to switch and can’t decide on a secondary, and Anti is probably better with his ZSS now.

ReVerbIsSuperb · Jan 16, 2018

While we are on the topic of whether or not Mario optimization will completely save the character itself in the current meta, I came across this interesting WIP document in the Mario Discord showcasing data on Mario's footstool combos:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JlA4yG3sjk68Zez5gBFTzyFzBsLkW2iv970CNvpcD_A/edit

The normal "Dthrow FH Uair FS Cape Nair Jablock" doesn't appear to work on half the cast, and even on the characters it does work on, the percents are pretty tight and there are a lot of little factors that'll mess it up (staling, rage, drift/hurtbox shifts, etc).

There's a few other variations/setups listed but testing isn't complete, not all are as reliable or consistent, and the roster list of who it'll work on may be smaller. But looking at this, I guess there is another reason besides lacking lab time among Mario's that these setups aren't seen as often. Still though, I have seen Zenyou start to implement this and other things where he can so I'm looking forward to see him push the punish game further regardless.

BeefySmashDoods had a video covering most of it in the past as well:

Nathan Richardson · Jan 16, 2018

Rizen said:
If you can't make it to live things use this site for wifi. You'll find better players and closer connections for less lag.
https://www.smashladder.com/netplay

You misunderstand, the issue isn't playing online, the issue is playing on FD. If I was in a tourney against a fox user I'd ban FD straight up. On FD zard has nowhere to go if fox decides to bust out the laser or reflecter or if Fox simply decides to rush up and throw combo zard.
If zard wants to dodge all that he HAS to jump and his air speed is horrible, shield? Bad traction. Rolls? Fox can easily read bad rolls and the FAF on zard's dodge rolls don't allow him to punish.
Simply put fox outpaces zard both on the ground and in the air so zard has to at least ATTEMPT to camp and use tilts to tap Fox enough to accumulate damage.

Rizen · Jan 16, 2018

TDK said:
"Oh wow the easy popular character is outplacing the more difficult, unpopular character" is basically telling people water is wet. Rosa's the Melee Puff of this game in the sense that nobody wants to play her because she's lame/boring/defensive/whatever whereas Mario's got all these flashy combos and is more aggressive while also being an easier character. So really, it's not surprising in the slightest. It doesn't make Mario better than Rosa (or Rosa as bad as you like to claim).

Stop freaking out about your waifu and read the rest of my post:

Rizen said:
Food for thought: Mario consistently outplaces Rosa. I'm not saying Mario's better and I know he's popular. IMO Mario is lower top 10 under her and ZSS. Something to consider about popular top tiers vs ones with smaller player bases is their ease of access lets more players win with them, hence placing better. It ties into top level vs mid-level play. Mario is better at mid levels (CF too), unless I'm missing something. How much should that weigh on a tier list? Should we have a separate list for top level play?

MercuryPenny · Jan 17, 2018

TDK said:
Mario's got all these flashy combos

you have no idea how many people i've seen whine about how boring mario is to watch because he lacks surface-level flashiness lmao

Minordeth · Jan 17, 2018

MercuryPenny said:
you have no idea how many people i've seen whine about how boring mario is to watch because he lacks surface-level flashiness lmao

Big side note on hype incoming:

Human beings are wired to like novelty. If you are exposed to something repeatedly, it loses its ability to stimulate as much. It’s partially why soon after Bayo came out, people got bored of watching her combos, even if they are all different with varying degrees of skill needed to succeed. Pretty much any character where combos are integral to their game plan will suffer from this.

Sheik, Mario, Bayo, prepatch Luigi, Melee Fox, etc.

It’s even worse for characters with a move set that lacks visual distinctiveness between moves and a gameplan

The exception would be if your character has something that is hard to pull off, but rewarding to land, and exciting to watch. It ensures relative rarity so that it remains exciting. Falcon knee is the classic example. So is Falcon Punch. And Falcon Fsmash.

... And that’s why Falcon is always hype.

The flip side of this is when you have a character with moves that lack visual impact or much distinctiveness between them. Like Rosa. Even her spike just kinda shoves you down without the visual pause indicator that other spikes get. When she kills you off the top, you just kinda die. Plus, she is a defensive, puppet character, already hard to play, and her techs are visually subtle. I love Rosa, but I get why people hate watching her, especially when they don’t understand how she works. Like, Dabuz is so slick with his SHAD into FF fair into Fsmash. And all you get is resident sleeper in the chat, dammit.

The-Technique · Jan 17, 2018

Minordeth said:
The flip side of this is when you have a character with moves that lack visual impact or much distinctiveness between them. Like Rosa. Even her spike just kinda shoves you down without the visual pause indicator that other spikes get. When she kills you off the top, you just kinda die. Plus, she is a defensive, puppet character, already hard to play, and her techs are visually subtle. I love Rosa, but I get why people hate watching her, especially when they don’t understand how she works. Like, Dabuz is so slick with his SHAD into FF fair into Fsmash. And all you get is resident sleeper in the chat, dammit.

Chat literally hates everything no matter who's on screen, there's no pleasing them. If the character is either top tier or winning the match, its "lol EZ character".

Deleted member · Jan 17, 2018

I heard some

|RK| said:
Larry's new Fox MU chart:

My current opinion of Fox's match ups pic.twitter.com/dEZyTpa5ds
— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 16, 2018

Wow, Fox looks like a top five character's match ups. I am not complaining, but I heard @Hat N' Clogs say that Fox's match ups were slightly improving that one time. If Fox were to make it in into top five, he has to try much harder in results. Those results are still good, but for him to be top five, he really has to draw his best cards in. Either way, Fox is not dropping for sure.

The_Bookworm · Jan 17, 2018

ShinyLegendary said:
I heard some

Wow, Fox looks like a top five character's match ups. I am not complaining, but I heard @Hat N' Clogs say that Fox's match ups were slightly improving that one time. If Fox were to make it in into top five, he has to try much harder in results. Those results are still good, but for him to be top five, he really has to draw his best cards in. Either way, Fox is not dropping for sure.

Fox never dropped, or increased in the tier list. He is ranked 7th in all of them. lol

Das Koopa · Jan 17, 2018

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7r1kzj/orionrank_2017_top_100_8071/

Part 3 of OrionRank is out!

Baby_Sneak · Jan 17, 2018

Minordeth said:
Big side note on hype incoming:

Human beings are wired to like novelty. If you are exposed to something repeatedly, it loses its ability to stimulate as much. It’s partially why soon after Bayo came out, people got bored of watching her combos, even if they are all different with varying degrees of skill needed to succeed. Pretty much any character where combos are integral to their game plan will suffer from this.

Sheik, Mario, Bayo, prepatch Luigi, Melee Fox, etc.

It’s even worse for characters with a move set that lacks visual distinctiveness between moves and a gameplan

The exception would be if your character has something that is hard to pull off, but rewarding to land, and exciting to watch. It ensures relative rarity so that it remains exciting. Falcon knee is the classic example. So is Falcon Punch. And Falcon Fsmash.

... And that’s why Falcon is always hype.

The flip side of this is when you have a character with moves that lack visual impact or much distinctiveness between them. Like Rosa. Even her spike just kinda shoves you down without the visual pause indicator that other spikes get. When she kills you off the top, you just kinda die. Plus, she is a defensive, puppet character, already hard to play, and her techs are visually subtle. I love Rosa, but I get why people hate watching her, especially when they don’t understand how she works. Like, Dabuz is so slick with his SHAD into FF fair into Fsmash. And all you get is resident sleeper in the chat, dammit.

You should also mention how this is just surface-level appreciation (also falcon’s knee lands pretty often, the other moves are more understandable).

People start to gain an interest in players like Dabuz/characters like Rosaluma and Jiggly when they start to get an understanding of footsies, spacial coverage, and the like.

My mistake if this is already implied within your post.

Minordeth · Jan 17, 2018

Baby_Sneak said:
You should also mention how this is just surface-level appreciation (also falcon’s knee lands pretty often, the other moves are more understandable).

People start to gain an interest in players like Dabuz/characters like Rosaluma and Jiggly when they start to get an understanding of footsies, spacial coverage, and the like.

My mistake if this is already implied within your post.

It’s sort of implied. Honestly, it’s mostly written from a viewership/casual perspective. Rosa and Jiggs absolutely get more interesting as a person gains understanding in the game.

Ultimately, an appreciation of any kind of defensive play takes some kind of deeper familiarity with the game being played. You see this in pretty much every sport.

Deleted member · Jan 17, 2018

You should honestly post more,

Minordeth . Your posts actually legit speak the truth in a deep and meaningful message.

The thing about Dabuz is he is extremely good with the Bayonetta match up ( you know how common they are ). A commenator even said it during SouthApex 2018. I also personally think Rosalina executes "up smash spam" better than Mario. As some one said earlier, Rosa's forward smash comes out at frame 9 while Mario's comes out at frame 10. They kill about the same percent ( Mario's might slightly KO earlier but I might be wrong ). It makes sense why people would place Rosa at top five or even top three ( ZeRo ), because that defensive play is amazing and Luma is something to be afraid of.

As much as people hate Mario and want him to move into high tier, Ally preformed pretty well with Mario at SouthApex 2018, beating WaDi who was three places above him. Either way, next tier list Mario is guaranteed drop ( In my opinion at least ).

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