Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[ARISTOS]

inb4 everyone starts saying that Peach definitively has a +1 MU with Bayo and that maybe she's secret top tier and they totally knew it all along =p

Why do people continue to post stuff like this?

Let's leave these statements in 2017

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people continue to post stuff like this?

Let's leave these statements in 2017

Well it is all about speculation .

In all seriousness, I could see Peach rising in the next tier list and doing better in the Bayonetta match up. Peach is not top tier but potentially top fifteen if Samsora keeps up the good results. Peach will never win the Bayonetta match up, but the best it could be is even or slightly in Bayonetta's favor.

 

[Nemesis561]

Anyone who thinks Diddy is dropping out of top 4 needs to look up videos by other top diddy players like MVD and Zinato. IDK all the good Diddy players can someone help me out? Diddy was consistently top 3 in overall results. ZeRo wasn't the only player carrying him.

Losing ZeRo is a huge loss though. Diddy had the #1 player representing him and now he doesn't even have a top 10 player, maybe top 20. That's going to hurt.

Just to name a few more high level Diddys, there’s Shoyo James, Dyr, K9, JJRockets, Legit, Angel Cortes, Wormynugget, Cyve. We might not see as many Diddy top 8s at majors but his rep is still very strong

 

[FeelMeUp]

Smash N' Brew (64 Entrants) (Houston, Texas)

1st: BSD | Elegant
2nd: GO! KJ
3rd: Deluxemenu
4th: Buandon
5th: Simple
5th: GO! Cyanide
7th: HSN | Ismon
7th: LD

Tourney ended up having a good turnout.
Elegant only went Doc for one set against our resident Doc main as a pride match, so include/exclude that if you wish.
He went all Luigi aside from that.

 

[|RK|]

Well it is all about speculation .

In all seriousness, I could see Peach rising in the next tier list and doing better in the Bayonetta match up. Peach is not top tier but potentially top fifteen if Samsora keeps up the good results. Peach will never win the Bayonetta match up, but the best it could be is even or slightly in Bayonetta's favor.

I mean, I wouldn't say Peach would never win the MU. That takes a good deal of foresight.

In either case, Samsora is one of those people who really, really knows the MU. So that could skew things.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wow, Mistake didn't win a single set

 

[blackghost]

Wow, Mistake didn't win a single set

its hard to win sets when your opponent doesnt have to kill you.
Watching zack and mistake back to back is to see the two variants of "aggressive" bayo. zack wants to chase offstage and its a calculated choice. mistake simply has no chill. its easy to predict an opponent that has no chill.

btw i have aggressive bayo in parenthesis because i dont believe bayo is ever the aggressor in matches. bayo players are waiting for you to do something before they do anything. it can be something as small as a small spacing error ( as zack did vs dabuz) or as large as a whiffed smash attack.

i'm gonna let someone else talk about mistake's performance i have no words for "high level" play t that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just to name a few more high level Diddys, there’s Shoyo James, Dyr, K9, JJRockets, Legit, Angel Cortes, Wormynugget, Cyve. We might not see as many Diddy top 8s at majors but his rep is still very strong

Don't forget about two big Diddy players, once competing for the second best Diddy in v4 (with the former player being the obvious second best prior to v4), now competing for the current best: Zinoto and MVD.

I mean, I wouldn't say Peach would never win the MU. That takes a good deal of foresight.

In either case, Samsora is one of those people who really, really knows the MU. So that could skew things.

I do agree with this. I think Peach being a contender for top 15 (especially with strong characters like Lucina, Corrin, MK, and Pikachu) is not within much sight so far.

its hard to win sets when your opponent doesnt have to kill you.
Watching zack and mistake back to back is to see the two variants of "aggressive" bayo. zack wants to chase offstage and its a calculated choice. mistake simply has no chill. its easy to predict an opponent that has no chill.

btw i have aggressive bayo in parenthesis because i dont believe bayo is ever the aggressor in matches. bayo players are waiting for you to do something before they do anything. it can be something as small as a small spacing error ( as zack did vs dabuz) or as large as a whiffed smash attack.

i'm gonna let someone else talk about mistake's performance i have no words for "high level" play t that.

Like what ESAM says: Mistake doesn't really have the mentality he had at the start of v4; the mentality he had to take a set off of ZeRo and Salem.

Why do people continue to post stuff like this?

Let's leave these statements in 2017

I do agree that this mentality (alongside other mentalities) from the Smash community needs to calm down: although I knew that Nah's comment was meant to be a joke.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I wonder with Zero takig a break, will it can make players have less excuses when fighting Diddy Kong or even make the community slightly more positive.

I'm curious why Elegant is in Texas, was he in the Pax Sourh event?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I wonder with Zero takig a break, will it can make players have less excuses when fighting Diddy Kong or even make the community slightly more positive.

I'm curious why Elegant is in Texas, was he in the Pax Sourh event?

PAX tournaments are invitationals, and Elegant didn't get invited.
Fun fact: ZeRo was invited to this event himself. He declined due to obvious reasons, and WaDi was invited as a replacement.

 

[Rizen]

My main is D tier? Sweet. No wonder it made people so salty when I beat them handily. Link should be higher though, imo. Great KO potential off the vast majority of his normal moveset--like pretty much all of them sans neutral standing A will kill, even bAir at a high enough percent. He has a hitconfirm off Ax2 that you can make inescapable at certain percents. Bomb recovery still as strong as ever. His main flaw is getting walked off the stage with relative ease but he's so versatile everywhere else I'd put him low B at worst. D would mean he's bad based on how the game rewards certain styles of play and Link can Do Everything. Just got some holes in his D (no pun intended).

Yeah Link has good kill confirms if he can catch the opponent. jab, jab upB works on non-floaty characters who pop out dagnammit. Bair 1st hit>land and turn around upB. Dthrow>Uair works on most of the cast. Bomb>Fair, if you throw from having Link's back to the opponent you get a few extra frames. From above throw bomb down>fair has a huge % range even after other confirms stop working. Zair 1st hit>upB is risky because you have to get close but true, like all of these. Uthrow stock cap kills around 150-170%. Link can arrow lock wobble animations, like form Nair>DA for possibly 80ish % kills near the ledge. And Utilt is a relatively low risk kill from around 130% on.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wow, Mistake didn't win a single set

Never mind, Mistake won aganist Captain Zack. For some reason I thought he already played every set

 

[TDK]

PAX Pools are now (really) done. The following players advance to top 8:

VoiD (Starts in Winners Semis)
Ally
MVD
Cosmos (Starts in winners semis)
Dabuz
Captain Zack

The following players have been put into a seperate bracket where two people make top 8:

Larry Lurr vs WaDi into Samsora
Salem vs Javi into Marss

The following players have been eliminated:
ANTi
Chag
Karna
Mistake

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

PAX Pools are now (really) done. The following players advance to top 8:

VoiD (Starts in Winners Semis)
Ally
MVD
Cosmos (Starts in winners semis)
Dabuz
Captain Zack

The following players have been put into a seperate bracket where two people make top 8:

Larry Lurr vs WaDi into Samsora
Salem vs Javi into Marss

The following players have been eliminated:
ANTi
Chag
Karna
Mistake

Nice to see my boy Ally in winners. It's been a while, but he seems do be doing great so far
I'm hoping on tuning into the tournament tomorrow.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think, at this point in time, the characters in top 15 are nearly set in stone. The exact order can be discussed (like I think Marth and Mario should be a bit lower and Corrin a bit higher), but none of the current top 15 seem likely to drop out of top 15.

Speaking of Corrin, I think people may underestimate her a bit. Her theory is better than most people give her credit for, I believe. She only really loses a few matchups, and only slightly. She may not win against that many top tiers, but neither does Zero Suit Samus or Mewtwo. As for results, Cosmos has them. Just look at this recent results at PAX Arena: 3-2 Larry Lurr, 3-2 Marss, 3-0 Mistake, 3-0 Captain Zack, 3-1 Javi, 3-0 Karna, 1-3 Dabuz. I could see Cosmos winning an S-tier event this season (potentially), and he might also make top 10 PGR (though it'll be hard).

That raises the question: How much higher can Corrin climb? She's currently ranked 13 on the 4BR tier list, yet I believe she has the potential to go even higher. Perhaps to #12, or #11, or maybe even the sweet, sweet #10 (like Larry Lurr predicted a long time ago).

 

[Wintermelon43]

PAX Pools are now (really) done. The following players advance to top 8:

VoiD (Starts in Winners Semis)
Ally
MVD
Cosmos (Starts in winners semis)
Dabuz
Captain Zack

The following players have been put into a seperate bracket where two people make top 8:

Larry Lurr vs WaDi into Samsora
Salem vs Javi into Marss

The following players have been eliminated:
ANTi
Chag
Karna
Mistake

Nooooo the two I was rooting for the most (Larry Lurr and WaDi) have to face each other immediatly

 

[Nu~]

As much as I loathe the character, Corrin is looking more and more like a problem every day.

I don’t see 10th place being all too far off in the future for them. But counterplay hasn’t really developed yet (being slow with no approach game just screams “run away from me!”) so there’s that to factor in.

 

[Aaron1997]

BTW at a NY Regional...

Sinji 3-2 Light

 

[TDK]

ORION (128 Entrans) (Tristate)

1st: Sinji
2nd: Locus
3rd: Freelancer Leo
4th: Light
5th: John Numbers
5th: Vinnie
7th: Frozen
7th: Odyssey

Between this and Whiteout a few days ago, this year could be really interesting if stuff like this keeps up. Sinji took out Light and Locus on his way to winning through winners.

 

[Nobie]

BTW at a NY Regional...

Sinji 3-2 Light

DAT AIN'T ALL.

Sinji takes 1st over Locus from Winner's side, going 3-1 over Locus's Ryu and Bayo.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Corrin's and Shulk's counters are amazing to avoid Juggle situations, the reason they're not used as often is because they have more endlag and that means they're less safe, but they are still quite fast and they disrupt advantages as good as Witch Time.
Why is Witch Time the end of the world? because we like to complain about Top Tiers.

Corrin's actually has very little end lag when it activates, yet I almost never seen it used to counter projectile camping.
And then Witch Time is used in the exact same situation.



EDIT: Why people fell for all of Sinji's tricks?!?!?!
I only watched GFs but it was pretty painful, including the atrocious DI to the Hydrant.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Corrin's and Shulk's counters are amazing to avoid Juggle situations, the reason they're not used as often is because they have more endlag and that means they're less safe, but they are still quite fast and they disrupt advantages as good as Witch Time.
Why is Witch Time the end of the world? because we like to complain about Top Tiers.

Corrin's actually has very little end lag when it activates, yet I almost never seen it used to counter projectile camping.
And then Witch Time is used in the exact same situation.



EDIT: Why people fell for all of Sinji's tricks?!?!?!
I only watched GFs but it was pretty painful, including the atrocious DI to the Hydrant.

It’s likely because of lack of the MU experience. Locus and Light don’t really have many notable PACs in their region (though Kiwi might be in Light’s.)

Still this weekend has been quite interesting with Whiteout, Sinji, and Cosmos who has made it out first in his PAX pool with Larry and Dabuz in it. Looking forward to this season

 

[Aaron1997]

Light also has Koolaid but idk if Koolaid ever goes Pac vs Fox these days

 

[Rizen]

Q who would you say is better, Marcina or Corrin? I used to say Marcina but now IDK. It's difficult to compare them; they're both so good in different ways.

 

[ARGHETH]

Why is Witch Time the end of the world? because we like to complain about Top Tiers.

The difference between WT and standard counters is that Bayo is basically guaranteed at least a smash attack or an aerial, but most of the time gets a 20-30% combo off it (or just a charged smash attack). Corrin and Shulk's meanwhile, rely on the opponent's move to do very much damage

Corrin's actually has very little end lag when it activates, yet I almost never seen it used to counter projectile camping.

It's amazing for it, yeah. The counter itself has no vulnerability after activation (intangible from frames 1-49, FAF of 50), meaning you pretty much can't punish it unless you read their next option. Makes life against projectile campers much easier.

Q who would you say is better, Marcina or Corrin? I used to say Marcina but now IDK. It's difficult to compare them; they're both so good in different ways.

I'd honestly still say Marcina tbh.

 

[Aaron1997]

Btw the only player that seemed like had no idea what to do was Locus. John and Sinji have like 50 set's between them, Freelancer Leo is one of Sinji's practice Partner's and light was playing the MU correctly till game 4 when he started to overexented.

The thing about Pac is even though his Set-up are easy to avoid you can't avoid everything because Humans can't play perfect so even if you know the MU you will still find a way to get Galaxian combed into kill %. His low % punish game is just good enough to keep things even when his set-up's are not working. Especially in Late in tourney's BO5 when the pressure is on and playing vs Pac in BO5 is very hard imo if you can't expose him hard enough.

 

[Deleted member]

Sinji is one of the main reasons Pac-Man is not bottom five. If Sinji keeps up these good results I could see him escaping bottom ten, but this is highly doubtable for many reasons ( like his terrible grab ). Either way, Pac-Man has potential. Right now he is a bottom ten character in low tier sadly.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I tend to see counters used when players are in the air and falling. They use it pretty high in the air which always bugged me, but thinking about it now I guess they were expecting their opponent to jump up after them with an aerial.

I don't think damage is huge factor in matches sincreplayers can throw out strong moves once they pressure you into disadvantage, to poke at you, or to take a risk.

I think counters could work more if players did not default to shield, rolls, airdodges, or an attempt to punish when an attack comes near them. I think players think of them more of as a delayed afterthought rather than a tool they should focus on or actively think about.

Shulk's Vision can punish projectiles burt I do not think it will be seen alot due to preferted controls and how I feel like it is more of a trump card. Once a player sees it once, it may be very unlikely for it to work again since the move is reactable from a distance.

 

[Nah]

Why do people continue to post stuff like this?

Let's leave these statements in 2017

I'm sorry, I just like to poke fun at how easily swayed--over stuff that means little--peoples' opinions are sometimes in this thread

 

[Blitz Rawket]

Rizen I think up-B is overrated personally. I'm more partial to u/dSmash with uSmash being a more guaranteed confirm into high damage/launch at the right percent, and down accounting for more variables in the opponent's toolset like an option select; dSmash can nick somebody underneath their shield if they somehow get the opportunity on landing, or if they tech roll behind you, you'll get them there too. One thing you have to worry about it a well placed tech landing that makes it whiff but that's why cycling up/down Smash is a good idea.

UpTilt is mad good but overreliance can kill Link easy, it's grab-able on shield every time, and Link sucks about getting walked off the stage from throws. His major shortcoming imo

 

[Rizen]

Rizen I think up-B is overrated personally. I'm more partial to u/dSmash with uSmash being a more guaranteed confirm into high damage/launch at the right percent, and down accounting for more variables in the opponent's toolset like an option select; dSmash can nick somebody underneath their shield if they somehow get the opportunity on landing, or if they tech roll behind you, you'll get them there too. One thing you have to worry about it a well placed tech landing that makes it whiff but that's why cycling up/down Smash is a good idea.

UpTilt is mad good but overreliance can kill Link easy, it's grab-able on shield every time, and Link sucks about getting walked off the stage from throws. His major shortcoming imo

UpB starts frame 8 vs Dsmash 9 and Usmash 10 so I use it off confirms because you get a slightly larger % window, and it's extremely risky when not confirmed into lol. There's a great thread with Link's ATs and confirms here.

I'm not worried about Link getting thrown offstage so much as him getting chained/comboed once an opponent penetrates his defenses. Link has good zoning and shield safety with good spacing but slow moves to start that require commitment. It's hard for him to escape pressure and he outright gets out-buttoned at CQC.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Q who would you say is better, Marcina or Corrin? I used to say Marcina but now IDK. It's difficult to compare them; they're both so good in different ways.

When it comes down to it, there are a few things that matter more than others. How well a character does versus other meta relevant characters is the most important factor when rating a character (ie the MU spread). I would say that there should be some discounting for lower tiers: In practice, anyone below top 20-25 or so would matter a lot less than anyone in top 10 or top 15. I won't consider Lucina since she's basically Marth (and both Marth and Corrin go even with her anyway).

So then, who is better, Corrin or Marth/Lucina? To answer this question, I will look at the MU charts of the three most notable Corrin players, as well as the three most notable Marth players. I'll start with Marth.

Spoiler: MkLeo

The Marth MU chart, sorry for the wait ☹ im working on the anothers 😄 pic.twitter.com/BWkj0hegOh

— LG | MkLeo (@Mkleosb) September 3, 2017

MkLeo has Marth slightly winning against Mario, Mega Man, Lucario, Peach, Toon Link, Villager, and Ryu (out of notable characters). He goes even with Cloud, Fox, Luigi, Greninja, Pikachu, Olimar, Captain Falcon, and Corrin. He loses to Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Donkey Kong, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo. Bowser is his worst MU (although MkLeo doesn't say whether it's 45:55 or 40:60, though I assume it's just an extra hard 45:55).

That's 7 winning MUs, 8 even MUs, and 10 losing MUs. The only top tiers he wins against are Mario and Ryu (if we consider them top tiers), while he loses to Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo.

Spoiler: Mr. E

I let all my emotions into this mu chart

have fun marcinas LOL

some of these mu's lucina makes it alot easier so not totally accurate

👍 pic.twitter.com/Hoq0z3TcEI

— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) September 3, 2017

Mr. E has Marth slightly winning against Mario, Lucario, Peach, Toon Link, and Villager. He goes even with Luigi, Greninja, Captain Falcon, Corrin, Mega Man, and Donkey Kong. He loses to Meta Knight, Diddy Kong (significantly), ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Bowser, Ryu, Pikachu, Olimar, Fox, and Cloud.

That's 5 winning MUs, 6 even MUs, and 14 losing MUs. The only top tiers he wins against is Mario, while he loses to Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Cloud, Fox, and Ryu.

Spoiler: Pugwest

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Pugwest has Marth slightly winning against Mario, Lucario, Peach, Toon Link, Villager, Mega Man, Greninja, and Luigi. He goes even with Olimar, Captain Falcon, Corrin, Ryu, Bayonetta, Bowser, and Sonic. He loses to Meta Knight, Diddy Kong (-2), ZSS, Donkey Kong, Sheik, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Fox, and Cloud.

That's 8 winning MUs, 7 even MUs, and 10 losing MUs. The only top tier he wins against is Mario, while he loses to Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Fox, and Cloud.

So that's Marth. That's an average of 6.66 winning MUs in top 25 (or so), and 11.33 losing MUs. He loses, on average, 9 MUs vs top tiers. That's... Not very promising.

Let's look at Corrin now, shall we?

Spoiler: Cosmos

[

Don't @ me. pic.twitter.com/w6qpVqFAoC

— Cosmos (@CosmosZR) March 17, 2017

Cosmos chart is a bit interesting because he uses -0.5 and +0.5 for MUs that are often considered solidly losing or solidly winning. In order to reflect this, I will post them as is:

Corrin wins 0.5 the following MUs: Rosalina, Luigi, Mario, Bowser, Peach, Villager, Lucario, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Toon Link, Donkey Kong.

Corrin goes even with ZSS, Marth, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Sonic, Greninja, Ryu, Mewtwo.

Corrin loses -0.5 to Cloud and Diddy Kong.

Corrin loses -1 to Sheik, Fox, and Bayonetta.

That's 11 +0.5 MUs, 8 even MUs, 2 -0.5 MUs, and 3 -1 MUs.

Summary vs top tiers: Very slight (0.5) wins against Rosalina and Mario. Very slight (-0.5) losses to Cloud and Diddy Kong. Slight losses to Sheik, Fox, and Bayonetta.

Spoiler: Ryuga

[

cosmos and zeke pic.twitter.com/ONYSzwVgSp

— ryuga (@trueRyuga) June 6, 2017

First off, Ryuga has acknowledged that the Greninja placement is in error and is supposed to be +1.

Corrin wins against Mega Man (+2), Toon Link, Pikachu, Lucario, Villager, Olimar. Corrin goes even with Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, ZSS, Marth, Meta Knight, Sonic, Mewtwo, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Bayonetta, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Ryu. Corrin loses to Sheik, Cloud, and Diddy Kong.

That's 6 winning MUs, 15 even MUs, and 3 losing MUs. While she doesn't win against any top tier, she only loses to three (Sheik, Cloud, and Diddy Kong), according to this MU chart.

Spoiler: Frozen

[

Decided to make a Corrin MU Chart. Even+/- used cuz 0.5's look dumb but I wanted to show that there was inbetween still. Pretty good char :) pic.twitter.com/a6JdOPUhUM

— Frozen (@FS_Frozen) August 30, 2017

According to Frozen, Corrin wins against Olimar (+2), Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Toon Link, Pikachu, Lucario, Villager, Mega Man. She goes even with Mario, Rosalina, Greninja, Sonic, Bayonetta, Donkey Kong, Marth, Ryu, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Captain Falcon, and ZSS. She loses to Fox, Diddy Kong, Cloud, and Sheik (with Sheik being the hardest).

That's 9 winning MUs, 12 even MUs, and 4 losing MUs. No top tier wins (although Mario, Rosalina, Sonic, and Bayonetta are Even+), and four top tier losses (Fox, Diddy Kong, Cloud, and Sheik).

So that's Corrin. The average of Ryuga and Frozen's MU chart are: 7.5 winning MUs, 13.5 even MUs, and 3.5 losing MUs. Compare that with Marth's average of 6.66 winning MUs and 11.33 losing MUs and Corrin looks pretty good.

What if we include Cosmos' chart? Well, if we consider +/-0.5 MUs as even, then that changes Corrin's average to: 5 winning MUs, 16 even MUs, and 3.33 losing MUs. If we consider them as actually winning and losing, then that changes Corrin's average to: 8.66 winning MUs, 11.66 even MUs, and 4 losing MUs.

Some notes on Corrin: Some of the MUs can go either way. Many Cloud players, when asked, will say that the Corrin MU is even or slight disadvantage for Corrin, so it's possible that it's an even MU. There has been some talk about Diddy potentially being even as well. VoiD even put Corrin as "Even or slight favor" in his Sheik MU chart, although Corrin going even with Sheik seems a bit unlikely. Corrin has the potential to beat Mario, Rosalina, and/or Sonic in top tier, although all of these might be even (Sonic is probably the least likely).

Still though, Corrin losing 2-5 MUs, doing great overall against high tiers and high-mid tiers, and winning 0-3 MUs against top tiers is pretty solid.

Let's think about it. The two arguments against Corrin being placed high on the tier list seem to be the following: #1: She doesn't have results. #2: Her poor mobility brings her down.

#1 is blatantly false now. Now that Cosmos is able to travel Corrin is a pretty significant threat at majors. Even before we could see Corrin players such as Ryuga and Frozen take sets off top players. Cosmos, the best solo Corrin main, has better results now than Mr. E, the best solo Marth/Lucina main. Sure, there are more Marth/Lucina players than there are Corrin players, but since when has that been a good criterium for determining which character is better? With ZeRo gone, it's quite likely that Cosmos will end up getting better results than whoever the current best Diddy will turn out to be. The "Corrin has no results"-argument doesn't hold water anymore. I don't think it ever really did.

#2, well... Is this actually the case? I mean, she'd be top 5 easily if she had Cloud's mobility, but even with her current mobility she seems to do quite well in many MUs, slightly winning them or at least going even. Cosmos has pretty good results against some of Corrins worst MUs (Fox, Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Cloud). She's not Kirby, or Jigglypuff, or Ganondorf, and her tools work quite well despite her subpar mobility.

So, yes. I do believe that Corrin is a bit better than Marth.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I personally think Corrin is slightly better than Lucina, but slightly worse than Marth.

In comparison to Marth, Lucina is less reliant on spacing, with some more consistant damage racking potential and KO potential. This gives her niche matchups over Marth against Pikachu and Falcon. Despite this, and due to Marth's more rewarding KO and spacing potentials, she must play more defensively in order to utilize her moveset to the fullest, namely her moves' consistently high knockback, though without getting the extra reward Marth obtains by doing so. In other words, she must space as well as character with good disjointed hitboxes, but doesn't have the benefits Marth's tipper by doing so. Her KO power and shield pressure is not as strong as Marth's tipper hitboxes. Finally her higher overall knockback removes several noteworthy sourspotted combos that Marth possesses at high percentages, while her unique KO set-ups are riskier than his.

She is top 15, but I don't think her ranked directly next too (or in the opinions of some professionals, tied to) her ancestor. Many professionals use her as a counterpick, mainly thanks to her similar strengths to Marth, while possessing a low learning curve like Mario and Cloud. Corrin kind of fills in the gaps thanks to the antics of Cosmos, and simply Corrin's strengths. I do agree that Corrin might potentially be ranked higher than Marth in the future.

 

[HoSmash4]

Corrin bad mobility is only true in her max run speed.

Joint best dash shield, great shorthop and her aerials cover her air speed in a large amount of mus. In some mus it is a problem ie v cloud and zss

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regarding the Lucina vs Marth debate: I've seen pretty much every theoretical argument why Marth is better than Lucina. Going forward, I'd like to see those proposing that Marth should be several spots higher than Lucina to provide some comparative MU charts. If Marth truly is several spots higher than Lucina, then his MU chart should reflect that. If it turns out that Lucina and Marth have basically the same MU chart, then it'll be hard to justify Marth being much higher than Lucina.

Corrin bad mobility is only true in her max run speed.

I think some of her biggest issues are with movement speed are related to chargable projectiles. It's relativelity easy to get full charges against Corrin, though eventually she'll find an opening and approach you. This is one of the reasons why characters like Mewtwo and Samus likely go even with Corrin. Still, it's not really that bad.

 

[Minordeth]

Man. Dabuz 3-1 over Void. Void played really well during the first game and almost came back during the second after a massive 0-death 10 second opening by Dabuz. But Dabuz is destructive at the ledge, and is probably the best player at anti-airing in the game. Void just kept getting caught.

 

[Nu~]

Am I the only one who thinks taking notable player’s MU charts at face value as proof of a character’s tier list position/viability is unreliable?(Woo that’s a mouthful)

Time and time again we’ve seen questionable reasoning from excellent players regarding how good (or bad) their character’s MUs are . Like, remember Lord Mix’s MU chart where Bowser beat pretty much everyone?

I’d at least try to question why they came to their conclusions before using it as justification for a position.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Am I the only one who thinks taking notable player’s MU charts at face value as proof of a character’s tier list position/viability is unreliable?(Woo that’s a mouthful)

Pretty much everyone thinks this.

Time and time again we’ve seen questionable reasoning from excellent players regarding how good (or bad) their character’s MUs are . Like, remember Lord Mix’s MU chart where Bowser beat pretty much everyone?

Yeah, that MU chart was waaaay optimistic. I don't think many people take MU charts at face value though, quite often you see discussion about various MUs and such.

I’d at least try to question why they came to their conclusions before using it as justification for a position.

Yeah, I agree.

 

[Minordeth]

Soooo, here’s the thing. When you are on stream at a major tournament, and you infamously lose to a single tactic, wouldn’t it make sense for you to lab the hell out of that tactic/MU so you don’t end up getting played again?

Well, MVD doesn’t seem to have done that. And Captain Zack quickly figured it out after MVD took the first game.

Captain Zack 3-1 over MVD.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Can we appreciate for a moment that the only one who took a single set from Cosmos at Pax Arena was Dabuz. Cosmos is such an incredible player. He seems to have a Dabuz problem though (which is understandable, Dabuz is crazy good and has a good shot at top 3 this season).