Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lord Dio]

First of all, CDK was actually playing Sheik that set, and secondly, unless you meant to say this season and not this year, what about Xzax at Civil War?

That is what I meant by secondaries.
forgot about the xzax one, but tbf......eh, point still stands overall.

 

[Crooked Crow]

*In Brawl, and only Zelda, Ganondorf, and Bowser seemed to have -4 MUs.

Well, Donkey Kong got obliterated by Dedede. 90:10. Mario, Samus, Luigi, also got wrecked like 85:15.

I remember when Ook beat MikeHaze's DDD. Man that was so hype, Ook was amazing. You get grabbed once and DDD just standing...infinite'd you. With one grab. Bye bye.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I don't think Shiek has the best perfect pivot options, just the character we see perfect pivot the most with. I think Void popularized it with her and other Shiek players are starting to do the same. Besides Shiek, the only other character I see on stream with perfect pivots is Marth, from MKLeo.

I think other characters can use perfect pivots, it may just has to gain stream or community popularity.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Every character can benefit from perfect pivoting even characters that don't go anywhere with it like Ness. He doesn't go very far but it's still a decent microspacing tool that can assist landing tipper bats against aggressive falling aerials for example, he also can extend low percentage up tilt strings with it. No character doesn't benefit from added movement options.

 

[PJB]

I feel like we as a thread don’t really discuss diddy as much as the other top tiers for whatever reason, so I’d like to bring him up for a bit.

At this point, it seems that diddy is considered a clear #3 on the tier list; definitely below the DLC rulers but firmly above everyone else. What’s interesting about this is how few top players seem to agree on diddy’s high placing. Zero himself placed diddy 5th below sheik and Rosa, esam put him at I believe 6th, and in general very few top players bring up diddy as a top 3 character.

Now, I’m no top player, but when I look at diddy’s tools I see an absolute powerhouse. Banana is ridiculous, fair and dtilt are awesome, he has consistent easy to use damage racking throw combos, some of the most consistent kill confirms in the game, a command grab, and a perfectly respectable recovery that is AT WORST average.

His matchup spread is excellent, and I think will only improve over time as the meta becomes more centralized around the top tiers. Diddy has arguably the best matchup with bayo of any character (other than maybe cloud?) and goes even with cloud. His only losing matchup in the top tier is Rosa, and he goes even or better with rest unless you think he loses to Mario (I personal would say even). He also is very difficult for ZSS and Mewtwo to deal with. Now, diddy does have tricky matchups in the lower tiers like megaman, olimar, Luigi, lucario, and maybe a few others. But I think the further we get into Smash 4’s lifespan, the harder it will be to main these characters and thus diddy will likely face them less and less often.

So what gives? Is diddy really super top tier incredible, or is zero just way ahead of the curve that he’s overrated? Why the difference of opinions between the top players and the rest of us?

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like we as a thread don’t really discuss diddy as much as the other top tiers for whatever reason, so I’d like to bring him up for a bit.

At this point, it seems that diddy is considered a clear #3 on the tier list; definitely below the DLC rulers but firmly above everyone else. What’s interesting about this is how few top players seem to agree on diddy’s high placing. Zero himself placed diddy 5th below sheik and Rosa, esam put him at I believe 6th, and in general very few top players bring up diddy as a top 3 character.

Now, I’m no top player, but when I look at diddy’s tools I see an absolute powerhouse. Banana is ridiculous, fair and dtilt are awesome, he has consistent easy to use damage racking throw combos, some of the most consistent kill confirms in the game, a command grab, and a perfectly respectable recovery that is AT WORST average.

His matchup spread is excellent, and I think will only improve over time as the meta becomes more centralized around the top tiers. Diddy has arguably the best matchup with bayo of any character (other than maybe cloud?) and goes even with cloud. His only losing matchup in the top tier is Rosa, and he goes even or better with rest unless you think he loses to Mario (I personal would say even). He also is very difficult for ZSS and Mewtwo to deal with. Now, diddy does have tricky matchups in the lower tiers like megaman, olimar, Luigi, lucario, and maybe a few others. But I think the further we get into Smash 4’s lifespan, the harder it will be to main these characters and thus diddy will likely face them less and less often.

So what gives? Is diddy really super top tier incredible, or is zero just way ahead of the curve that he’s overrated? Why the difference of opinions between the top players and the rest of us?

The thing about Diddy Kong is I think his results are slightly diminishing and his air mobility is very weak. His nerfs and air mobility hold him back and that might be why top players place him lower than SmashBoards did. Nairo put him in top three though in his earlier tier list, but that might not be true.

 

[Routa]

I personally used to think that Diddy was the best. but the more I think about it I could see him behind some other top tiers like Fox, Sheik and Rosa. Why do I think this way? First we have to look at Diddy as a character and then look how he does against other top tiers and common characters.
We know that Diddy's neutral is absurd and his ability to shut down ground games with banana is something to fear, but we have to remember that this character doesn't have as strong of a advantage state as the other top tiers. Also his "weak" recovery and hard time with landing do harm him quite a bit. Diddy is said to have troubles with Mario, Olimar, Pac-Man, MM, Rosalina, Lucario and Luigi (I have heard people claim Villager to give Diddy some trouble, but not sure if it is so). Having that many troublesome MUs along with not really "countering" anyone doesn't make Diddy look that great.
Now we have to compare to other top tiers and ask the age old question: "What Diddy can/cannot do which other Top tiers cannot/can?"
Look at Fox. A character with amazing juggle game and one of the best ground games and pressure options to have. He shuts down "many" of the lower tier characters and does decently against the common threats. Then there is Rosa. Character with ability to wall out almost anything and has deadly juggles and ability to deny the ability to recover from some characters. Add to that, just like Fox, her countering some characters in the lower tiers and her positive MUs against many other top tiers and high tiers.
While I do think that Diddy is great character that does well overall... he kinda does lack that "X factor" which Zero talks about.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Diddy is said to have troubles with Mario, Olimar, Pac-Man, MM, Rosalina, Lucario and Luigi

i'd actually be super interested if someone could go into these matchups and talk about why diddy goes even/loses in them

i've heard someone say pac-man doesn't have as much trouble setting up his gimmicks against diddy but that's about all i know

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ayFZtBhImk

31-40 of the PGR is out!

Spoiler: if you don't have time to watch the video

31: Zinoto
32: Raito
33: NAKAT
34: Tsu-
35: Charliedaking
36: Choco
37: JK
38: Fatality
39: Dyr
40: Tyroy

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Diddy's X Factor is banana, yes it can be used against him, has counter play and limits his options in hand but the options he does have while in hand (or used as a stage control tool) are incredibly oppressing. Diddy just holding the banana and center stage against an opponent he has a lead on is very difficult for most characters to safely play around. I also would not say his advantage isn't as strong as the other top tiers, he has some obnoxious hitboxes, his Dtilt sets up combos, throws (which are all pretty good as well) and kill setups. His damage output might not be very high but it's still enough given how long he can keep an opponent in disadvantaged or uncomfortable situation with these mentioned tools and banana.

Can't neglect his ledge trapping either, banana at the ledge with Diddy behind it allows him to cover every single option with no commitment on his part so well the best thing to do is just stay on the ledge which can be dangerous with a read on this option.

 

[Lukingordex]

*In Brawl, and only Zelda, Ganondorf, and Bowser seemed to have -4 MUs.

I'm pretty sure MK used to have 7 +4 MUs or something in brawl. Jigglypuff also used have a -4 against G&W but i think it was changed to -3 in the last brawl mu chart in smashboards.
Ness and Lucas also had -4 mus against DK due to an infinite cg too

 

[Deleted member]

I could see Diddy Kong slowly desend in the next tier list. He should be A in my opinion, he is nowhere near Cloud at this point despite those two being separated by 0.2 points in the Backroom point results. In @Das Koopa 's score sheet, Cloud is much much higher than Diddy Kong. If Diddy Kong were to all again the lowest I can see him being is in eighth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ayFZtBhImk

31-40 of the PGR is out!

Spoiler: if you don't have time to watch the video

31: Zinoto
32: Raito
33: NAKAT
34: Tsu-
35: Charliedaking
36: Choco
37: JK
38: Fatality
39: Dyr
40: Tyroy

It is nice to see my men Raito and Tsu getting good placings! Is T going to be on this list?

 

[epicnights]

I doubt T will get any PGR placing this season if he hasn’t already been given a spot. His only PGR wins from S+, S, and A tier tournaments is on Elegant at West Side Saga, and he has only 3 placements at S+, S, and A tier PGR tournaments with 9th at west Side Saga, 33rd at 2GGC MKLeo Saga, And 16th at 2GGC Championship. He doesn’t have the placements nor the PGR wins to really make it on unless he’s got a lot of B and C tier PGR wins that I don’t know about.

 

[Laken64]

We know that Diddy's neutral is absurd and his ability to shut down ground games with banana is something to fear, but we have to remember that this character doesn't have as strong of a advantage state as the other top tiers.

The way I see it Diddy's design values consistency at the cost of a high damage advantage. He can convert off up throw, down throw, (depending on the situation) fthrow at very low %s, down tilt, banana confirms and the rarely used nair. That's 6 ways to convert into damage in almost any situation, 3 which can be used as a kill confirm or 50/50. And if somehow all of those fail to get a stock he has a low committal frame 5 anti air in uptilt which can kill at high %s. The only other characters that can rival the multiple amount of ways to convert into damage like this in my head (could be wrong) is for sure with all his tools and and (though the latter two begin to lose this when % gets too high)

he kinda does lack that "X factor" which Zero talks about.

I do slightly agree with this the closest thing to an "X Factor" Diddy has is his banana or in detail banana into fsmash for a potential early kill. The only other one I can think of is his down air which is a top 5 spike I believe but honestly I'm not sure I would count that. Building off what I said earlier, Diddy trades off a "X factor" in terms of burst like for constant consistency in conversions at nearly all %s with a "weaker" advantage state and low output damage per conversion.

I also would not say his advantage isn't as strong as the other top tiers, he has some obnoxious hitboxes, his Dtilt sets up combos, throws (which are all pretty good as well) and kill setups. His damage output might not be very high but it's still enough given how long he can keep an opponent in disadvantaged or uncomfortable situation with these mentioned tools and banana.

I agree with all of this his ledgeguarding is one of the best but if its one thing I want to draw from this is that I believe that Diddy's advantage state in terms of combo/damage output is underdeveloped imo. For example Mr R started dabbling in footstool combos a year ago in tournaments after seeing sheiks like blank do it consistently and over time it when from "O I wonder if I can do this as a small mixup" to a firm staple in his 's gameplay and a better conversion tool overall at low %s, extending sheik's already oppressive advantage state and racking up damage at low % a little bit faster.
One thing mains have found (and shown by BSD) out is down throw footstool into a possible reset with nair or even using barrels to rack up 50% off one dair reset and the ONLY time I've seen this was at MM9 where Zinoto used it against Ally and Zero doing it to Ned or Zinoto (I cant remember).
Unlike Mr R both seem content (Zero more Zinoto occasionally tries it from time to time) in not getting a massive 50% in one stroke and making the number of times needs to win neutral less tedious overall, they prefer doing upthrow double back air and getting 18% which I just don't get (though perhaps fthrow to fair and pinning them to the ledge for 30%+ could justify it but eh idk). Theres also nair which is very underused imo and while it cant lead into Fox like strings, it has some nice combo potential.

Overall Diddy is a Strong Character but he can be developed much more to slightly mitigate his low damage output and advantage.

 

[|RK|]

ZeRo does the Geo combo when he's really feeling himself, tbh.

In either case, Diddy - like Sheik struggles a bit from behind. Banana isn't really an X-Factor in the traditional sense. His dair is the closest thing, but there's no consistent way to get it right now.

 

[Myollnir]

Unpopular opinion here : I'm actually convinced that is the best character at the highest level of play.

His match-up spread against the top tier is just too good, beating soundly //// & going at least even with the rest, except (which is his hardest match-up I believe).
He can have some trouble with obscure characters such as , but nothing too bad at all actually.
As the metagame progresses, anything below top tier is becoming less & less relevant. Diddy benefits a lot from this.

However, your definition of best character / #1 on the tier list can differ from mine.
If you think the best character is the character that can easily dispose of mid to high level players and net you a good placing, then yeah, that would be Bayonetta, followed by Cloud.

 

[JB333]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ayFZtBhImk

31-40 of the PGR is out!

Spoiler: if you don't have time to watch the video

31: Zinoto
32: Raito
33: NAKAT
34: Tsu-
35: Charliedaking
36: Choco
37: JK
38: Fatality
39: Dyr
40: Tyroy

It's tough seeing Fatality drop off from his previous 15th place in the PGR. 38th is most certainly not bad, but I feel that he can do better. He had some unfortunate set losses throughout the second half of the 2017, but I think he has a chance to bounce back this year.

Otherwise, it's nice to see Choco this high on the PGR without going to one U.S. tournament. He has wins on basically all the Japanese PGR players, and he's incredibly consistent with high placings in a place where many top Japanese players finish below top 16 regularly. I think it's about time for him to come to the U.S.

 

[.zmid]

Hoping this is the right place to ask, is there a reason the https://smashboards.com/tiers/#WiiU page isn't updated?

 

[Rizen]

Unpopular opinion here : I'm actually convinced that is the best character at the highest level of play.

His match-up spread against the top tier is just too good, beating soundly //// & going at least even with the rest, except (which is his hardest match-up I believe).
He can have some trouble with obscure characters such as , but nothing too bad at all actually.
As the metagame progresses, anything below top tier is becoming less & less relevant. Diddy benefits a lot from this.

However, your definition of best character / #1 on the tier list can differ from mine.
If you think the best character is the character that can easily dispose of mid to high level players and net you a good placing, then yeah, that would be Bayonetta, followed by Cloud.

I agree Diddy does better at high level play. I used to think diddy was #1, now I write out the top tier with he, cloud and bayo being even. They're all great in their own way and so different it's hard to compare them.
[]

A lot of what I said about Sonic applies to diddy too; don't underestimate him because he doesn't have crazy things like witch time or limit cs. Diddy is a neutral monster with amazing kill confirms and very solid all around.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Zero's playstyle of Diddy Kong reminds me of the way players in Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom and Marvel Vs Capcom 2 play.

They all play teams or characters that are very oppresssive. To me it feels like they are min-maxing the game and milking it for all of it's worth. In short to make the hardest match on the planet every match and give their opponents a very small window to counterattack.

The marvel games are filled with blockstun loops and crossups that last a long time. Meanwhile in Smash 4, Zero's playstyle is to cover all or as many defensive options at once and once he opens you up, he won't stop.

I think if we want to talk about ways to beat Diddy or rather Zero, we should talk about ways we can stop banana pulls or punish them in some way before his banana game comes together. Rather than talk about Diddy's positives and only punishing Monkey Flip.

To me it seems like players talk so much about his positives that it even stunts defensive/counterplay conversation about Diddy because the positives are always brought up as a reference point.

 

[Deleted member]

I said this earlier, but top tier should be from first to eighth ( Bayonetta to Sonic ). I just do not see characters like Mairo, Mewtwo, Marth and Ryu being in the same tier as Sonic and Fox. I am all in favor with @Shaya 's point scoring being the new tier list. I mean Mario, Mewtwo, Marth and Ryu all have slightly worse flaws and match ups than the top eight.
So people are saying Diddy Kong is the best at top play and Sonic is very good at top play? Interesting. I feel like Cloud gets a lot of his results from mid level play rather than top play, but I may be wrong. Does the same apply to Bayonetta?
Also nice to see Olimar and Duck Hunt making large rises from the first tier list.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I feel like Cloud gets a lot of his results from mid level play rather than top play, but I may be wrong.

From what I've seen, Cloud still gets some great results at the top level. However, I do agree with you that he's especially popular in mid and low levels. I believe this is because Cloud is the easiest character in the game to master bar none, and since mid and low level play is less likely to develop and optimize other characters...then many more people flock to Cloud because it's the easiest thing to do. From what I can tell, top level is different because it's an environment that pushes each character to the limit more than other levels, and thus characters with harder difficulty curves become more popular and thus the results balance out more...a prime example is comparing Cloud vs. Sheik. Concerning results and popularity on the mid and lower level, Cloud dominates and Sheik can't even contend with him in results. On the top level though, while Cloud still has better results, the margin is much smaller and there are more Sheik mains in comparison to lower levels because the top level players have experience and thus can handle a more difficult character, and are more WILLING to handle a difficult character.

That's my theory, anyway.

 

[Nemesis561]

I could see Diddy Kong slowly desend in the next tier list. He should be A in my opinion, he is nowhere near Cloud at this point despite those two being separated by 0.2 points in the Backroom point results. In @Das Koopa 's score sheet, Cloud is much much higher than Diddy Kong. If Diddy Kong were to all again the lowest I can see him being is in eighth.

It is nice to see my men Raito and Tsu getting good placings! Is T going to be on this list?

Yeah sorry but I can’t agree with this. There’s no reason for Diddy to drop that much, he still has great theory backed by great results. While Diddy does have some problem matchups, they are mostly a few random high tiers who do not have a lot of rep in this meta, and they’re arguably even or slight losses (Luigi, Megaman, Olimar). He also does very well vs the top tiers (loses to Rosa however) and might be Bayos hardest matchup.

Even if you want to take Zero out of it (IDK why you would but I see the ridiculous notion sometimes that he is carrying Diddy), Diddy still has good rep in Zinoto, JJRockets, Dyr, K9, MVD, Wormynugget, etc. And while I agree that Diddy doesn’t have as much top level rep as some other top tiers (aside from Zero), Diddy still dominates at a regional level.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm pretty sure MK used to have 7 +4 MUs or something in brawl. Jigglypuff also used have a -4 against G&W but i think it was changed to -3 in the last brawl mu chart in smashboards.
Ness and Lucas also had -4 mus against DK due to an infinite cg too

Perhaps that is the case, and if so, that would only strengthen my argument.

Unpopular opinion here : I'm actually convinced that is the best character at the highest level of play.

His match-up spread against the top tier is just too good, beating soundly //// & going at least even with the rest, except (which is his hardest match-up I believe).

"Soundly" sounds like an exaggeration, most of these seem to have developed into slight wins for Diddy (and isn't Bayonetta considered even?). I could see him being potentially second though, although several people have made a case for him having more than one bad MU. I could see Mewtwo, Ryu, and Marth being high tiers rather than mid tiers, so while beating them is nice it's not exactly super nice. He's still a really good character, potentially #2 even. I don't think he's better than Bayonetta, though.

If you think the best character is the character that can easily dispose of mid to high level players and net you a good placing, then yeah, that would be Bayonetta, followed by Cloud.

This tier list (and most tier lists) mainly concern top level play. The tier list also assumes that people know the MU, several characters (such as King Dedede or Zelda) becomes quite scary if you don't know the MU.

I said this earlier, but top tier should be from first to eighth ( Bayonetta to Sonic ). I just do not see characters like Mairo, Mewtwo, Marth and Ryu being in the same tier as Sonic and Fox.

Yeah, it seems to me that more and more people are moving towards "Top tier might not even be top 10, it might be top 8 or top 9". Which seems reasonable to me, all things considered.

While Diddy does have some problem matchups, they are mostly a few random high tiers who do not have a lot of rep in this meta, and they’re arguably even or slight losses (Luigi, Megaman, Olimar). He also does very well vs the top tiers (loses to Rosa however) and might be Bayos hardest matchup.

According to ZeRo, Diddy might lose to Rosalina, Bayonetta, Cloud, Lucario, Pikachu, Sheik, and Luigi. If ZeRo is correct, Diddy might actually be lower than top 8. According to ZeRo, Diddy doesn't win against a single top tier, and he slightly wins against Meta Knight, Corrin, and Greninja in high tier (going even or losing against the rest). Diddy Kong could actually be "just" a high tier character, if we are to believe ZeRo's MU chart.

I don't think we should, though. I would be very surprised if Diddy Kong dropped lower than #8 (I would be pretty surprised if he dropped lower than #5, even). ZeRo's MU chart is probably somewhat incorrect and too pessimistic.

 

[The-Technique]

From what I've seen, Cloud still gets some great results at the top level. However, I do agree with you that he's especially popular in mid and low levels. I believe this is because Cloud is the easiest character in the game to master bar none, and since mid and low level play is less likely to develop and optimize other characters...then many more people flock to Cloud because it's the easiest thing to do. From what I can tell, top level is different because it's an environment that pushes each character to the limit more than other levels, and thus characters with harder difficulty curves become more popular and thus the results balance out more...a prime example is comparing Cloud vs. Sheik. Concerning results and popularity on the mid and lower level, Cloud dominates and Sheik can't even contend with him in results. On the top level though, while Cloud still has better results, the margin is much smaller and there are more Sheik mains in comparison to lower levels because the top level players have experience and thus can handle a more difficult character, and are more WILLING to handle a difficult character.

That's my theory, anyway.

Makes sense. Another thing about low mid level play is that the majority of players either don't know the Cloud matchup or straight up refuse to learn, letting him get away with things most top players (with how refined their punish games usually are) kill Cloud from 0 percent for. They look at his uair and can't actually see that Cloud is also very unforgiving to make mistakes with the higher level you play at.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm pretty sure MK used to have 7 +4 MUs or something in brawl. Jigglypuff also used have a -4 against G&W but i think it was changed to -3 in the last brawl mu chart in smashboards.
Ness and Lucas also had -4 mus against DK due to an infinite cg too

I recall them having a bad match-up vs Marth due to their grab release animation.

As for Zero's charts and opinions, I like to think that he intentionally undersells his character and other popular characters to try and encourage players to do better. That's my take from when he did the character series on almost the entire cast with the positive click-bait titles and the information in those videos.

If top level play preferred hard to play characters, I would love to see Shulk up there.

In case someone wants to respond to the Shulk part, I'm aware that his attacks have bad start-up frames.

 

[Deleted member]

Are,, and one of those characters that do much better in high play than low and mid play? It is probably that they are harder to pick up than the rest of the top tiers. A list of how well all of the top tiers and some high tiers do in high and level play and what they do better at.

Yeah sorry but I can’t agree with this. There’s no reason for Diddy to drop that much, he still has great theory backed by great results. While Diddy does have some problem matchups, they are mostly a few random high tiers who do not have a lot of rep in this meta, and they’re arguably even or slight losses (Luigi, Megaman, Olimar). He also does very well vs the top tiers (loses to Rosa however) and might be Bayos hardest matchup.

Even if you want to take Zero out of it (IDK why you would but I see the ridiculous notion sometimes that he is carrying Diddy), Diddy still has good rep in Zinoto, JJRockets, Dyr, K9, MVD, Wormynugget, etc. And while I agree that Diddy doesn’t have as much top level rep as some other top tiers (aside from Zero), Diddy still dominates at a regional level.

I was just speculating to see if Diddy Kong could drop. His match ups are good but top players are putting him lower as tier lists are made.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Are,, and one of those characters that do much better in high play than low and mid play? It is probably that they are harder to pick up than the rest of the top tiers. A list of how well all of the top tiers and some high tiers do in high and level play and what they do better at.

Diddy Kong seems common enough. Sheik is a fairly complex character, and she can be mentally draining to play in tournaments. Both Sonic and Rosalina & Luma carry some stigma (especially Sonic) as well as being fairly different from most other characters, which might hurt their usage. Still, I see little reason why these characters wouldn't be able to perform well at mid-level tournaments, if played by a reasonably good player.

 

[WiFi]

Going back to the whole thing about Marth falling into high tier, I just don't see why people think of Marth so negatively. A top tier should feel strong, and Marth feels strong. I still feel that Marth is better than Corrin and Lucina (albeit, slightly better) and is one of the few characters that goes even with Bayonetta and Cloud. While Marth loses to Fox and Sonic, he does notably beat Mario, Ryu, Luigi, Peach, and Olimar. I'd go so far to say that Marth beats all of high tier save Pikachu and Meta Knight. Marth also goes even with DK (very hard even, probably slight loss), and loses to Bowser and Sheik. This is a pretty optimistic MU chart that I scrambled together, but it is the matchup chart of a top tier. Marth is probably in the best spot for now, his edgeguarding is very good, and he has tippers. Marth is a character that is very skill reliant, especially when it comes to spacing, and the only top-level Marth that I see get tippers more than non-tippers is MkLeo, who has the most positive outlook for Marth. After all, a 60:40 MU isn't so bad when you can kill them at 40% at the ledge with barely any rage. The X-factor of tipper is just as strong as aura, but Marth, unlike Lucario, has good frame data, good Oos options, a disjoint in the form of his sword, and the threat of Jab. Overall, I feel Corrin and Ryu should switch spots and Lucina should be the gateway to top tier character above Ryu.

 

[Browny]

I don't even know how I should feel anymore, have people seen this website?

https://struz.github.io/smash-move-viewer/#/v1/mewtwo/AttackAirB/13

For years... YEARS, Mewtwo mains had to put up with so called 'intelligent' people including back room members and moderators telling us that Mewtwos hurtbox was bigger than his body, it covered his tail and he didn't have disjointed attacks. I can still watch streams in 2018 and commentators are STILL GETTING THIS WRONG. I wrote this thread almost 2.5 years ago
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/

and surprise surprise, just about everything I said is true.

Let this be a lesson to people on this forum, don't trust what 'pros' or commentators say about this game because way too often people are ignorant sheep. I'm not talking about commentators saying 'wind monado' or nonsense like that, I'm talking about whether the #1 player in your scene spreads some idiotic lie about X character only having Y true kill set ups. If you think someone is wrong about something and have reasons to believe so, tell them they are wrong. Start a dialogue because if their opinion has merit, they will back it up. No one ever got good at video games by being too afraid to argue over tactics. If they call you dumb, so what, they are the ones who will lose because they don't understand the games mechanics while you get better, quicker.

I don't even know how many infractions I've got on this forum for attacking people who deliberately spread lies but every single one of them was worth it. BTW Zero's current coach is one of those people, massively wrong about a lot of things but it just goes unchallenged so often because of his position.

Or people can just continue doing what they do, be friendly to anyone and never have a different opinion. I hate that it feels good to be vindicated after all these years because there is always such resistance to anyone who disagrees with what 'pros' say.

 

[Onua]

When I look at Ganon where he is currently I often feel rather odd. The character has some great things and some truly stupid things, but he also at the same time has a lot that really holds him back. Largely being his mobility, bad grab game, and bad recovery. I do think his advantage state is completely ridiculous tho. Multiple zero to death set ups with footstools and every time he gets a flame choke there is a chance that that might be it after 30ish percent. Sometimes I wonder if he is better than given credit for. He seems to do fine outside of 5 or so MUs but those MUs are very popular, such as bayonetta.
Ive played Ganon for a while now but still at times I feel he is a very dumb character when he gets the chance to land the things he wants to land. Its just a shame he falls apart when you really exploit his major weaknesses. Raw strength is scary and good in a vacuum.
I do think however if he had a slightly better grab range, his old nair, and dark fists (his armored up b that hits rather than grabs) he would be actually notably better. Dark fists gave him a solid recovery, and a scary out of shield option since it killed so early. Its a shame hes stuck with a terribly designed up b that really doesnt work all that well and can punish him for landing it in the first place.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Browny

Great post, I read the entire mewtwo thread too and loved the post you made near the end.

Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/the...ewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/#post-20074818

I was not aware of that hitbox website, great find.

 

[Rizen]

When I look at Ganon [...] Multiple zero to death set ups with footstools and every time he gets a flame choke there is a chance that that might be it after 30ish percent.

What? I've never heard of 0-death setups with Ganon. Like what? Maybe with a banana?
Flame choke being teck-able on reaction hurts Ganon. He has good reward off reads but no combo potential after low % DA and Dthrow followups, or that was my impression anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like many top players always place Mewtwo at the bottom of top tier because it is "too floaty and too easy to kill" for a top tier. Ahem, Melee Jigglypuff? Well Jigglypuff has it's rest in Melee, but Mewtwo can still kill a stock a little early. Characters that either must approach to Mewtwo and can get their projectiles easily make great match ups for Mewtwo. ( Those good match ups would be ,, and are some notable examples. ). Mewtwo is also almost winning the Mario and Sonic match up. If it meta would develop more and figure out new tricks for it, it could be a threat or some sort. Mewtwo's place in the tier list is debetable ( some think it should be higher in the top tier, some ( most top players ) think Mewtwo is at the bottom side of the top of the tier list or even high tier ), but it is obvious that Mewtwo is a solid charater. I personally think Mewtwo is fine where he is for now.

 

[WiFi]

I actually agree with Esam on Mewtwo's placement, however, Mewtwo probably has one of the best matchup spreads in the game. All of Mewtwo's bad matchups can be overcome, as shown by Wadi beating Diddy Kong at top level play and numerous Mewtwo's beating Cloud. Mewtwo just has a lot of even matchups in top tier, which he often loses because Mewtwo dies 20-30% earlier than most characters. Mewtwo does beat Mario and Sonic though. Mario is outranged and isn't as mobile as Mewtwo, while Sonic's spindash loses to a charged Shadow Ball and downtilt. It is also important to mention that Mewtwo is one of the best damage dealers in the game, even small combos can very dangerous. Mewtwo is a lot like Peach, there is a lot of untapped potential that isn't utilized at this point.

 

[Browny]

Browny

Great post, I read the entire mewtwo thread too and loved the post you made near the end.

Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/the...ewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/#post-20074818

I was not aware of that hitbox website, great find.

Thanks.

The hitbox website only came out yesterday, the hurtbox is what I was interested in the most though.

 

[HoSmash4]

Going to drop some of my opinions

1. Sheik isn’t top 5, 6th best. Despite this doesn’t lose any matchups.
2. Corrin is potentially top 10
3. The game is more balanced than brawl or melee but overall as a proportion of the cast only the top 20-25 are truly viable.
4. Mewtwo would be top 5 if it wasn’t for cloud
5. Camping shouldn’t be brought up so much as a tactic. Safe pressure and option coverage/situation flowcharting is and always will be the most consistent tactic
6. Low tiers are still bad but can do work especially with a lack of mastery in the mu which will always be prevalent
7. You can beat anyone in the world if you master the matchup (unless that mu is -2/3 then... good luck

Feel free to pick my brain on any of these opinions

 

[Deleted member]

Going to drop some of my opinions

1. Sheik isn’t top 5, 6th best. Despite this doesn’t lose any matchups.
2. Corrin is potentially top 10
3. The game is more balanced than brawl or melee but overall as a proportion of the cast only the top 20-25 are truly viable.
4. Mewtwo would be top 5 if it wasn’t for cloud
5. Camping shouldn’t be brought up so much as a tactic. Safe pressure and option coverage/situation flowcharting is and always will be the most consistent tactic
6. Low tiers are still bad but can do work especially with a lack of mastery in the mu which will always be prevalent
7. You can beat anyone in the world if you master the matchup (unless that mu is -2/3 then...)

1. That can actually be agreed upon. Sheik may be dropping in the tier list as every tier list is made. The thing is, her results are still strong and her match up spread is arguably better than Cloud's, despite Sheik struggling to make a KO.
2. I really do not see that. One thing that Corrin has better than some high tiers is Corrin's match up spread is really good. It could even be considered better than Mario's and Marth's match up spread. Corrin just does not have the status for a top tier, I mean she has good results but not that of a top tier. ( EDIT: When I mean top tier I mean top 10! ).
3. I highly disagree with this one. You are saying that Greninja and Mega Man are not truly viable? I think every character has potential to be viable, even Jigglypuff. You are correct about Smash 4 being more balanced than Melee and Brawl.
4. Sure, that match up is a little bit difficult for Mewtwo, but that is not what is keeping him from top five. The top five have better representation and results than Mewtwo, as well as better match ups than him. His flaws are also a little bit too pronounced ( being too frail ). The highest I could see Mewtwo going to potentially is top nine.
5. That is an interesting opinion. I am not an expert in Smash brothers, but camping is also a good tactic to win. Camping can make you win easier and be harder to hit, but it has some flaws. Interesting.
6. I agree with this. Low tiers can put up hard work, I mean in Smash 4, you do not have to fear the top tiers as much in Melee and especially Brawl. Some of them have potential, but the Smash community just refuses to play them.
7. I am going to say one thing: It all depends on skill. If you understand the match up very well but another player arrives and is much more skilled than you, then you can not beat anyone in the world.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The game is more balanced than brawl or melee but overall as a proportion of the cast only the top 20-25 are truly viable.

I’m having memory loss, viable is defined as the ability to win a S tier major right? Or the ability to just place high in the S tier major?

I’m most likely using wrong definitions, but if it’s the latter, then that number goes up to more like more than half the cast,

 

[Browny]

IMO if a character has multiple wins against the highest level caliber of multiple tournament winning players, that character is viable.

So if you got say, the top 20 of the PGR. If at least 5 of those people have lost to any given character, it is perfectly feasible someone using that character could win a major. It takes a lot of luck with brackets but there is a realistic chance it could happen based on evidence.