Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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#81
As a Palu secondary, I can agree with this. Wario, Ike and Mr. Game and Watch are definitely worse than her. I don't know about Charizard though...
As a charizard main I'll say zard is roughly even or better than her. Like zard palutena's usmash is great (more due to vertical range than framerate) and her aerials are better than zard's but zard has a much better ground game and despite having more commitment on his smashes palutena has a LOT more commitment on her tilts allowing zard to essentially whiff punish any of palutena's tilts for free except for utilt.
Zard's flamethrower beats palutena's reflect and exchanges well with her autoreticle though palutena can dodge it with warp though that sometimes leaves her helpless.
It turns into a game of ground versus sky where charizard is the ground and palutena is the sky.
 

Lord Dio

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#82
While Bayonetta and Cloud have made Villager's life more difficult, it's still funny to see how much Villager's perception lives or dies with Ranai. Is there any character that's so reliant on a single person supporting their results?
Pit, Wii Fit, to some degree Shulk, a lot of the mid and low tiers.
 
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#83
While Bayonetta and Cloud have made Villager's life more difficult, it's still funny to see how much Villager's perception lives or dies with Ranai. Is there any character that's so reliant on a single person supporting their results?
ESam with Pikachu. He gets a huge majority of Pikachu's results, and while people like Captain L put in some work, theres not really anyone else aside from those two. Samsora with Peach, at least at the top level of play. There is probably a few more out there.
 

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#84
Move Ryu down. Forget results which he does not even have.

He does not even have the match-ups to be a top tier. He has volatility due to rage.

That is it.
I totally agree. Ryu has a lot of bad match ups in the top tier and even in the high tier. ( His only good match ups against Fox and Mario ). He has a bad approach and his overall results and representation is not good for a top tier. Even some high tiers do better tha

I can agree with Emblem Lord on moving Ryu down, but who would replace his spot? Pikachu, Lucina maybe?
Ehh no one. Just leave Ryu's old spot blank. No one in the high tier is good enough for top tier ( yet ).
 

Lord Dio

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#85
ESam with Pikachu. He gets a huge majority of Pikachu's results, and while people like Captain L put in some work, theres not really anyone else aside from those two. Samsora with Peach, at least at the top level of play. There is probably a few more out there.
Ridae prolly does more work than Captain L imo.
Peach at top level has a lot more than you'd think. Kie, Umeki, Razo, SlayerZ. We just hear the most about Samsora.

Tbh Mega Man and Lucas probably fit into this category, I think Kodystri's done, and Kameme's been brought up, so iirc it's more or less on Scatt and Taheita to rep their mains.
 
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#86
Ridae prolly does more work than Captain L imo.
Peach at top level has a lot more than you'd think. Kie, Umeki, Razo, SlayerZ. We just hear the most about Samsora.

Tbh Mega Man and Lucas probably fit into this category, I think Kodystri's done, and Kameme's been brought up, so iirc it's more or less on Scatt and Taheita to rep their mains.
Oh yeah thats right, forgot about all of the Peach mains lol. Surprised I forgot that many. Captain L was just the one that came to mind first.
 
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#88
As a charizard main I'll say zard is roughly even or better than her. Like zard palutena's usmash is great (more due to vertical range than framerate) and her aerials are better than zard's but zard has a much better ground game and despite having more commitment on his smashes palutena has a LOT more commitment on her tilts allowing zard to essentially whiff punish any of palutena's tilts for free except for utilt.
Zard's flamethrower beats palutena's reflect and exchanges well with her autoreticle though palutena can dodge it with warp though that sometimes leaves her helpless.
It turns into a game of ground versus sky where charizard is the ground and palutena is the sky.
I would agree that Zard is probably better, I wasn't trying to say that he was worse than Palutena. Also why would a Palutena use any of her tilts on purpose? I can see up tilt being the best of them but still not great to use, and ftilt and dtilt seem too laggy to be useful at all. Wouldn't she rather just space fair and bair than stay grounded?
 
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#91
Have a discussion we can start up. Do you think Marth and Lucina should share a spot. Personally I don’t think they should while yes, they are quite similar, there are characters (such as Corrin) who have done better than Lucina in tournaments and debatably has better theory and tools. I feel the 2 character difference (while Ryu could easily go below Lucina and make it just Corrin between them) is a good distance. What do you guys thinks?
 

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#93
Have a discussion we can start up. Do you think Marth and Lucina should share a spot. Personally I don’t think they should while yes, they are quite similar, there are characters (such as Corrin) who have done better than Lucina in tournaments and debatably has better theory and tools. I feel the 2 character difference (while Ryu could easily go below Lucina and make it just Corrin between them) is a good distance. What do you guys thinks?
I personally rank them together but do feel Marth's the better of the 2. It is kind of weird to have 2 characters between them. I would have ranked Ryu above and Corrin below Marcina.
 

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#94
As if having Greninja mains knock each other out in his own saga was enough , the voting ended after the frog army gave their best showing. Still, I believe in the frog man and will one day rise to his rightful place.
Also I feel that Mario will never leave the top 10 no matter how much guff we give him. It's too ingrained in the public conscious that he's apart of the sacred ten and Ally (along with Zenyou and Anti) are his noble champions. Also there's the fact there is not a singular character who can take Mario's place. Unless Ally never comes back to smash and the other Mario mains move on, he probably going to stay top 10. If he drops off next list, I will eat my hat.
 
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#96
I can agree with Emblem Lord on moving Ryu down, but who would replace his spot? Pikachu, Lucina maybe?
Lucina 100%. Outside of Smashboards & Reddit, you'll see Marth and Lucina being treated as equals and that they'll apply together pretty much everywhere. Just stroll through the PGR Twitter and look at their MU charts & tier list. Pretty much all grouped together with the worst violator being ESAM who has since admitted ignorance.
 

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#98
Melee and Project M Kirby is haunting Smash 4 Kirby, huh? I kind of feel bad for Kirby; Kirby is now bottom six. I just hope someone can use Kirby to boost his overall performance and get him into the lower mid tier to fully show his potential. I do not know any major Kirby main sadly. I just hope he does not end up in bottom tier. Though Kirby has huge disadvantages and he might end up in bottom tier in the future. Eh, we will see. Also Corrin continues to stay in top of high tier; I am happy.
 
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#99
This tier list looks...okay! Not too shabby or too bad that. Ness and Lucas were placed so close to each other and it makes sense. Although Lucas have the better potential to be outplace Ness in the future (In which gives the reason why Lucas rose up), Ness in 2017 is pretty good.

Ness have some noticable players such as FOW (He'll come back...for sure), TGG, NAKAT (Recently he used more Ness than I ever seen before), S1, and recently Gackt! Ness placements, although inconsistent, have some high placings. FOW placing 25th at Civil War, FOW placing 13th at Nairo saga, TGG placing 5th at Royal Flush, NAKAT placing 13th at EVO (while mostly going Ness, especially during top 32), S1 placing 5th at B.E.A.S.T. 7 and 7th Syndicate 2017, and Gackt placing 17th at The Big House 7. Not only that, these Ness mains got sweet wins: Larry Lurr, Marss, CaptainZack, ANTi, Abadango, WaDi, Mr. E, Locus, Rich Brown, and Mistake (Not PGR yet but he is dominant throughout second-half of 2017).

Although Ness will obviously be dethroned as the best Earthbound character by Lucas the near future, right now in 2017, with good results and wins, Ness gets the edge over Lucas...slightly.

Edit: Gackt nearly defeated Ally though. Impressive since there are not many Mario mains in Japan (Ron and FILIP being the only two noticable Mario mains)
 
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I would agree that Zard is probably better, I wasn't trying to say that he was worse than Palutena. Also why would a Palutena use any of her tilts on purpose? I can see up tilt being the best of them but still not great to use, and ftilt and dtilt seem too laggy to be useful at all. Wouldn't she rather just space fair and bair than stay grounded?
Palutena's d-tilt is very good, the startup is a bit long but it has a long lingering hitbox and the same endlag as Mario's up smash. You can use it to cover ledge options and certain neutral options like dash in and roll in.
 
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Other than results from 2016 and the legacy effect, why is Toon Link as high as he is when he hasn't impacted the metagame for more than a year now?
 
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Other than results from 2016 and the legacy effect, why is Toon Link as high as he is when he hasn't impacted the metagame for more than a year now?
Toon Link is considered one of the best zoners in the game yet his results were...eh.. Not many Toon Links placed good on NA majors post-Hyuga, but I guess the reason why he is that high in the meta game is because he is a strong counterpick to certain MU such as DK and his potential is still held strong in Japan largely thanks to Sigma winning some stacked Japan tournaments.
 
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Toon Link is considered one of the best zoners in the game yet his results were...eh.. Not many Toon Links placed good on NA majors post-Hyuga, but I guess the reason why he is that high in the meta game is because he is a strong counterpick to certain MU such as DK and his potential is still held strong in Japan largely thanks to Sigma winning some stacked Japan tournaments.
Duck Hunt has all of what was mentioned plus the results to back it up. Duck Hunt is quite literally one of the best counterpicks to Donkey Kong, as noted by both sides of the coin. Yet despite this, they are two tiers apart.
 
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Duck Hunt has all of what was mentioned plus the results to back it up. Duck Hunt is quite literally one of the best counterpicks to Donkey Kong, as noted by both sides of the coin. Yet despite this, they are two tiers apart.
The difference is one has rep in Japan in sigma and R-ma winning things, and the character's Ding Dong range is tremendously small
The other is Duck Hunt Doggo
 

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Wow, Palutena is bottom eleven. How so, she has an excellent up air that can kill at early percents and has a lingering hitbox. Is Palutena just that bad or does nobody play her? Thoughts?

Also I said this before, but Rosa top 5. That is where she belongs, especially with Dabuz's strong performances.
 
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The difference is one has rep in Japan in sigma and R-ma winning things, and the character's Ding Dong range is tremendously small
The other is Duck Hunt Doggo
I do believe that Duck Hunt will rise in the future though. But I guess the reason why Duck Hunt isn't high tier is because maybe Raito didn't place well compared to Toon Link's in Japan. But at the same time, Raito definitely have more noticable wins...I don't know. What I know is that Duck Hunt is underrated and that the more representation he have, he may have the potential to be top 25 or even top 20!
 
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I do believe that Duck Hunt will rise in the future though. But I guess the reason why Duck Hunt isn't high tier is because maybe Raito didn't place well compared to Toon Link's in Japan. But at the same time, Raito definitely have more noticable wins...I don't know. What I know is that Duck Hunt is underrated and that the more representation he have, he may have the potential to be top 25 or even top 20!
I would go that far...like at all. Duck Hunt is a good character as we have seen from Raito and Brood. However, I do not ever see him reaching top 25 due to limitations he has. One is his kill power which is just awful. His smashes are also bad because you can fall out of them. He is an amazing zoners yes, but these with other flaws will keep him from ever reaching top 25 imo.
 

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While the possibility of a lower tier winning a national while being the primary main (redundant but you know what I mean) is kind of slim, we're still seeing them do damage in select instances.

Pac-Man still has a decent Diddy matchup.
SuperGirl Kels pulled out a Kirby to take a set off of Blacktwins' Cloud.
Little Macs taking sets off of Bayonettas, somehow.
Speaking of Macs, did you see Hero (aka //) take Kirihara's Rosalina to the limit? If every Mac played like that, they'd be salting up brackets like nobody's business.

One thing I'm starting to think is that character loyalty as a product of a desire to be liked or admired is the wrong way to go. Tweek mentioned it in a tweetlonger post. For a while after he switched to Cloud, he still would pull out Bowser Jr. because he knew it was a fan favorite, but it only gave him losses.

On the other hand, character loyalty as the result of genuinely wanting to push a character as far as possible seems to bring fairly positive results. I think this is why Japan has so many of the top character specialists. At the end of the day, the US seems to have the strongest of the strong players, but you sense in guys like T, the Duck Hunt crew, etc. a desire to be something more. They seem fueled less by ego and more by discovery.
 
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Okay let's talk about two high tier characters that have dropped dramatically in the current tier list: Villager and Megaman. I mean, yesh that is a really harsh drop. Villager dropping 7 points and Megaman dropping in a WHOOPING 11 points!! How could this happen? I've never see a drop so hard than Ness in the last tier list.
 
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Okay let's talk about two high tier characters that have dropped dramatically in the current tier list: Villager and Megaman. I mean, yesh that is a really harsh drop. Villager dropping 7 points and Megaman dropping in a WHOOPING 11 points!! How could this happen? I've never see a drop so hard than Ness in the last tier list.

Cloud and Bayonetta happened that's what . Both of them give Villager and MM bad times. Cloud laughs and thier typical zoning playstyle and Bayonetta eats them alive in disadvantage
 
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You know, is it a coincidence that Fox was consistently placed 7th throughout many tier list and Larry consistently being 7th on X-Factor in every PGR? Is 7 the Fox lucky number??

Edit: Also, Larry Lurr mosly placed 7th in many tournaments throughout 2016.. Coincidence??

Cloud and Bayonetta happened. Both of them give Villager and MM bad times
Yesh, so DLC ruin them. :{ FeelsBadMan
 
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Onua

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Ok I honestly do not understand why Palutena is still considered low tier and is near the bottom.
She has strong tools, a good neutral, a stupid grab game, a powerful bair that shuts down a lot of characters, good mobility, a decent MU spread, and has gotten decent results from her dedicated players.
I just dont understand why she is sill considered to be so low. I dont see how characters like GnW, Zard, Mac, Ike and Roy can all be considered stronger characters than her when theyre weaknesses and mu spreads are arguably worse than hers. Like I just dont understand why people put her so low still.
My only guess is that no one plays her and people still sleep hard on her. Cause I honestly have no idea.
IMO she should be right behind yoshi.
 
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Ok some thoughts

:4cloud2: I'm starting to think that Cloud may not be Top 2. All of his Top 3 mains don't even play him Solo (MKleo, Komo, Tweek)
When was the last time they won a major with just Solo Cloud? Major's almost always comes down to secondaries for them. The best Solo Cloud right now is MattyG and he may not even get PGR. The only place that Solo Cloud is truly been
dominant is Japan. A character that doesn't seem Solo mainable at top level usually doesn't indicate a top 2 character.

:4villager: This character might be approaching Low tier/Bottom 15 next year if Ranai doesn't do something. I don't think I even remember seeing a Villy other than Ranai break top 32 at a Major. Has some of the Worst DLC MU's in the game down there with some Bottom tier's and his poor mobility is really killing him right now. His fall is very similar to:4pacman:after Aba threw him into the trash.

(Speaking of.....)

:4pacman: The sad truth is, until someone starts putting up similar results to 2015 Aba, he will never escape bottom 10. Everyone is so tunnel visioned on Aba that they don't realize that he never was even close to playing Pac to his fullest potential. Don't believe me? Just watch Tea/Sinji. They have much more character knowledge then he ever had. Yes I know it was 2015 but he was still using Pac a Diddy Counter pick well into 2016 and there was 0 improvement. Tea is stuck in Japan and will probably not change for a while. Tbh the highest I see him is Bottom of Mid tier but Sinji's results should of been enough to escape Bottom 10.

:4samus:Is to low, but that will never change till a Solo Samus place's well at a Major. Outside of Icymist and Pyreeze Samus has only done well as a Counter pick. YB is going to Umebara TAT so big opportunity there.

:4wiifit:Going to leave it short here. She's not bottom 5. Yes she's Bottom 10 but Bottom 5 is just to much.
 
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Ok I honestly do not understand why Palutena is still considered low tier and is near the bottom.
She has strong tools, a good neutral, a stupid grab game, a powerful bair that shuts down a lot of characters, good mobility, a decent MU spread, and has gotten decent results from her dedicated players.
I just dont understand why she is sill considered to be so low. I dont see how characters like GnW, Zard, Mac, Ike and Roy can all be considered stronger characters than her when theyre weaknesses and mu spreads are arguably worse than hers. Like I just dont understand why people put her so low still.
My only guess is that no one plays her and people still sleep hard on her. Cause I honestly have no idea.
IMO she should be right behind yoshi.
keep in mind that the tier lists factor in results as well as viability. besides TLTC there haven't been very many prominent palutena mains competing at majors, especially in 2017.
 
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Wait....

If E tier is mid tier...

Then this only means one thing.

My prophecy that Charizard would rise to the bottom of mid tier has happened!

Huzzah! It feels good being right!


That said, while I can see Charizard rising a few spots, maybe to the top of E if we're lucky. I think this is about as far as he'll get.

Still, not a bad resting place for what many considered to be the worst character at launch.
 

Yonder

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Wait....

If E tier is mid tier...

Then this only means one thing.

My prophecy that Charizard would rise to the bottom of mid tier has happened!

Huzzah! It feels good being right!


That said, while I can see Charizard rising a few spots, maybe to the top of E if we're lucky. I think this is about as far as he'll get.

Still, not a bad resting place for what many considered to be the worst character at launch.
I'd say half the roster was considered bottom 5/the worst the worst at launch. Ok, hyperbole. But off the top of my head, DK, Doc, Robin, 3DS Olimar, WFT, Ike, Samus, Megaman and Zard were also claimed to be the worst.

Luigi (I know, right!?), MK, Marth, Lucina and later Mewtwo were almost always in low/bottom tier also. Patches did wonders! Vectoring mutilated Luigi big time during launch.

Meanwhile, Yoshi, Wario, Pac, and later Roy are the characters that took the biggest falls...

Ahh,the nostalgia of a 3(?) Year old game.


Anyways, a few general thoughts:

Congrats to Luigi for making the cyclone rise with the highest jump yet! He had the biggest trop in V2 so this is nice redemption. Elegant and discovered mashed cyclone spikes, nuff said. I wish these factors were explained in the post though, being the highest rise and all.

ZSS gets a very well deserved rise. It always looked awkward seeing her below Mewtwo. Mewtwo is in the perfect spot. On one hand, I think his full potential hasn't been unlocked. On the other hand, rage and lightweight smash 4'ing him hard.

S and A tiee are pretty great. All the characters that should be in there, are. I think Mario and Ryu,the most controversial top tiers atm, are ok for now. But I can see Ryu below Corrin in the next list if Locus doesn't step up his game.


Pikachu being that high feels wrong for some reason. He just hasn't made much of an impact yet always get placed sky high. On the other hand, I think he should be one spot behind Luigi.

Mk will rise next list. I think he's pretty potent, and should be near Corrin. MkLeo has shown just how potent he can be, especially against Diddy, a top 3 character right now.

Villager will fall like a brick agai next list if things don't change, he's pretty mediocre. Poor Greninja missed the cutoff, he's good.

Game and Watch I feel has had enough random, but strong performances St various tourneys to warrant a bottom of the D tier spot. If Robin is there after all,a character who failed at his own saga miserably with the 2md most reps that day...


Really, I don't have any major complaints. Pretty much 95% of characters are in the right tier, it's just a bit of shuffling that'll occur over the next while for most characters. I can't think of one character that is outlandishly out of place here besides my above nitpicks. Nice work.
 

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This was a pleasant surprise. Been kinda absent for a bit, other things have had my attention (BAYO 3 IS REAL AHAHAHAA!), but this'll rekindle my spirit.

To be honest, I quite like this list. The last few lists, there have been a few "glaring" issues from my standpoint; a few characters being severely underrated, such as ZSS and Lucina etc, and while, like any tier list, I could still go though this one and swap a few characters around, they're all mostly next to eachother give or take a couple of spaces, and there are no real glaring issues for me. Rosalina and ZSS are being given the respect they deserve; both of them are stupid dumb. Bowser, DK and Luigi are on the rise and are in general where I'd place them.

The only real "issue" would be Lucina. However, not only is her going from 18th to 14th a huge step forward, technically, there's only 1 character between Marth and Lucina, with Marth and Ryu being tied. That just puts Corrin in-between them.

And to be honest, we have to remember that this list is likely still draws a lot from top level play. Leo still puts work in with Marth, but Lucina still rarely appears, or at least not in the same instances as Marth. Meanwhile, Corrin has also been showing up more these days, more than Lucina, so if we really break it down, who are we to say it's wrong that Marth and Lucina aren't ranked together? I am honestly pleased with this outcome overall.

Now this isn't to say Marth and Lucina can't be ranked together. I'm just saying that, when she proves it, she'll be next to him in a flash. For now, I think where she is is more than acceptable.

Also Marth technically dropped a space too, of which I'm happy with, because all the characters that deserve to be above him are now above him.

All in all, probably the best and most accurate list thus far. Honestly struggle to pick fault with it.
 
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Ridae prolly does more work than Captain L imo.
Peach at top level has a lot more than you'd think. Kie, Umeki, Razo, SlayerZ. We just hear the most about Samsora.

Tbh Mega Man and Lucas probably fit into this category, I think Kodystri's done, and Kameme's been brought up, so iirc it's more or less on Scatt and Taheita to rep their mains.
Even though Kody (changed his tag to NovaOkami, now he is Nova) has gone on record saying he dropped Lucas, he still plays him at his locals. He just has a handful of other characters he loves to play too. Off the top of my head they are: Rosalina, Robin, and Corrin.

But yeah, Lucas can still fit in the about one main carrying his results category. Currently Mekos is the only travelling Lucas in NA that is known by the general audience, meanwhile Taiheita holds that spot for Japan.

I'm curious why Lucas and Ness are next to each. I read the spoiler tab about them being next to each other due to small point differences which I do not fully understand.

My question is, are they together because they share the same series, have similar special moves that share the same name, or is it because in general, players who do not play either character see them as one and the same?

Rambling now, but this has got me thinking that the Ness and Lucas Discords should merge again like they were in the beginning instead of the April's Fool's Joke that was pulled off this year which upset some members of Ness Discord to the point where they threatnened to leave the server.

Just give us a Marcina acronym for the fun of it.
 
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