Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

Anyone else feel like is pretty underwhelming nowadays?

Ramen hasn't been doing much outside of CFL weeklies and TLTC's results have also dropped off overall to the point where he decided to pick up Diddy as a co-main.

Looking at her toolkit again she just has a really linear, one-dimensional gameplan that has great room for counterplay to it. I acknowledge moves like bair and uair are absolutely great (invincible moves in general are a big boon) along with how much she gets off jab and grab, plus good mobility stats overall, but that's pretty much all the character has going for her and it doesn't lend to a character having longevity in this meta. Her approach isn't good, most of her MUs against relevant characters aren't good.. could go on. I feel like the hype over her being mid tier has pretty much died. Hell I feel like characters such as are more solid and have been getting way more notable results recently.

 

[Dinoman96]

Anyone else feel like is pretty underwhelming nowadays?

I thought she was generally acknowledged to be bad around here now.

To me, Palutena died in competitive play when customs were banned nearly two years ago.

 

[Rashyboy05]

If only Palutena had a better set of special moves then she probably would be a lot better. Back in the days where custom moves were legal, most Palutenas I see would normally run Superspeed and Lightweight to fix her damage racking and killing issues as well as give a huge boost to her mobility. Her current set of special moves which are counter and reflect feels completely useless and I can't recall a single game where those two moves actually did something useful. Doesn't help that she has the worst set of tilts in the game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Palutena was designed to have changeable specials. The main reason why she seems so bad is because we're using an incomplete version of her.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Pls don't start the discussion about her using her customs in competitive again. It won't be allowed because smash Community doesn't like changes.

 

[Rizen]

Palutena was designed to have changeable specials.

Did Sakurai or a designer actually say that?

 

[Dinoman96]

Did Sakurai or a designer actually say that?

Well, one can infer it that way, considering the way her customs were presented in her trailer, the fact that they all come unlocked from the start, the fact that her customs (Miis aside) are the only ones they even bother to mention in the in-game loading screen tips, and the fact that her trophy description says:

 

[bc1910]

Did Sakurai or a designer actually say that?

Can't provide a concrete source but I'm pretty sure he did, yes.

And as said, it's practically stated in her trophy description.

 

[Rizen]

^That's fare. Anyway there is a customs thread for custom talk.

 

[L9999]

Anyone else feel like is pretty underwhelming nowadays?

Ramen hasn't been doing much outside of CFL weeklies and TLTC's results have also dropped off overall to the point where he decided to pick up Diddy as a co-main.

Looking at her toolkit again she just has a really linear, one-dimensional gameplan that has great room for counterplay to it. I acknowledge moves like bair and uair are absolutely great (invincible moves in general are a big boon) along with how much she gets off jab and grab, plus good mobility stats overall, but that's pretty much all the character has going for her and it doesn't lend to a character having longevity in this meta. Her approach isn't good, most of her MUs against relevant characters aren't good.. could go on. I feel like the hype over her being mid tier has pretty much died. Hell I feel like characters such as are more solid and have been getting way more notable results recently.

@Gheb wasn't wrong when he listed Palutena's worst aspects in vivid detail way back. Speaking of hype, I'm not very sure about DH's future. I mean, he has solid results from the Duck Hunt Dog trio and Trick Shot shenanigans, but he has horrid killing and an exploitable recovery mixups or not, which may lead to figure him out (even if the trio are actually improving on that).

 

[ARISTOS]

Pls don't start the discussion about her using her customs in competitive again. It won't be allowed because smash Community doesn't like changes.

I mean it's true.

She was built around her changeable specials. Without those, she's terrible.

We crippled her by our design of the ruleset. It isn't starting some kind of big uproar to admit that.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yea considering Palutena was a character specifically designed around mixing her interchangable moves in customs. So in tournament where customs are now allowed, it seems pretty obvious her overall potentiall would be greatly limited in the meta.

 

[The-Technique]

Anyone else feel like is pretty underwhelming nowadays?

Ramen hasn't been doing much outside of CFL weeklies and TLTC's results have also dropped off overall to the point where he decided to pick up Diddy as a co-main.

Looking at her toolkit again she just has a really linear, one-dimensional gameplan that has great room for counterplay to it. I acknowledge moves like bair and uair are absolutely great (invincible moves in general are a big boon) along with how much she gets off jab and grab, plus good mobility stats overall, but that's pretty much all the character has going for her and it doesn't lend to a character having longevity in this meta. Her approach isn't good, most of her MUs against relevant characters aren't good.. could go on. I feel like the hype over her being mid tier has pretty much died. Hell I feel like characters such as are more solid and have been getting way more notable results recently.

Underwhelming? Absolutely. But even still I don't consider her bad as she is regarded here. A character that's fast on the ground and the air, has decent mid-range pokes, good landing options and mixups, and boasts a good grab game is a character that likely won't rise nor fall very much.

As for TLTC dropping her as a main, things like that always happen. Then you also have to keep in mind that Raziek also dropped Robin for Cloud, and Dath eventually ended up taking 3rd at Shine, so nothing is certain in the meta.

 

[chaos11011]

Duck Hunt kills much in the way of Diddy Kong. He needs those set ups to kill (or throw out a utilt if it gets rly bad). Funny enough, Banana is Can and Gunmen packaged into one.

One thing the trinity isn't using yet that the American dogs are already on is set ups like Ftilt/Dtilt into a Can [thats facing you into] into UAir (easy to do, and worst case scenario, Can is holding center stage or the ledge). That kills at 80-110 depending on the variables.

There's also other Can set ups. Have a percent advantage? Self Destruct Can to Up Air/Back Air is true if you are in close percents to your opponent. You can set this up with jab, Clay Pigeon, Gunmen, or even OoS.

There's also his frame traps and ledge traps, along with his solid edgeguard game.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Yes i'm all in for Palu customs but don't start the discussion here where you want to discuss about the metagame and customs aren't part of the metagame.

It was a good choice for tltc to get a sec to Palu because she has some awful toptier mu's but outside of this(expect little mac) she has a pretty nice spread. with mostly even and some advantage mu's. Diddy covers that.

btw i'm probably the only one but i can't see Bayo worse than even for Palu.

 

[TDK]

Characters with good reward off of grab have a better chance vs Bayo then those who don't, IMO.

 

[MistressRemilia]

@Gheb wasn't wrong when he listed Palutena's worst aspects in vivid detail way back. Speaking of hype, I'm not very sure about DH's future. I mean, he has solid results from the Duck Hunt Dog trio and Trick Shot shenanigans, but he has horrid killing and an exploitable recovery mixups or not, which may lead to figure him out (even if the trio are actually improving on that).

Please tell me how many time Brood or You3 got edgeguarded at Genesis 4.
If the answer is indeed rather low ( and it is ) , it's because of the fact that, while DH's recovery is bad:
- Using Can while UpB-ing at the same time is among the most efficient of way of recovering low.
- Recovery as a whole is among the most overrated flaws a character can have. It requires a character being in a special kind of disadvantage, only for you to edgeguard said character afterwards, which even against the worst recoeries out there isn't free.

Don't worry, i can hear you " But Ness! " or " But Bayo/Villager/Pikachu! ":
- Ness has more than just a bad recovery: He has bad range, isn't threatening from below, and has among the most reactable double jumps out there. All of these elements make it so that Ness will not only struggle to get back onto the stage, but also struggle to get past this disadvantage, as frame trapping & disjoints are very efficient against him.
- I said overrated, not bad. Edgeguarding can truly turn a few matchups upside down, but the key word here is " a few matchups ". A major flaw is a flaw that a majority of the relevant characters can actualy punish, not a matchup specific issue.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Characters with good reward off of grab have a better chance vs Bayo then those who don't, IMO.

That is a factor too. Thing also is that Palu's neutral is like anti bayo in my opinion. Jab beats heelslide, bair beats everything like always, big part of her neutral is being more defensive which is good vs Bayo, AR can actually be useful in the mu(outside of heelslide range), anti air options that beat her dair and dabk and her grab of course which has super good range.
Bayo actually can't get from ledge for free. If she tries to abk from ledge she eats a bair or even a upsmash which kills her at earlier percents, bair is actually able to hit her out of witchtwist offstage and with uptilt and rapid jab on the ledge she can catch many things outside of abk you have to be aware of witchtime of course. Bayo can't easily gimp palu because of warp(she can still throw out long lasting hitboxes to catch you reappearing but most of the time that gets a stagespike which you can tech or you can get around it)
Bayo's laggy airdodge is a huge plus for palu in that mu. Nair and upair are long lasting hitboxes and it kills her at decent percents.

Palu doesn't have much options but all of her options can beat Bayo's things. What Bayo has in the mu is her insane reward if she gets what she wants. I have to play that mu in depth more with good bayo's but in my mind the theory at least should be about even.

 

[ARISTOS]

- Recovery as a whole is among the most overrated flaws a character can have. It requires a character being in a special kind of disadvantage, only for you to edgeguard said character afterwards, which even against the worst recoeries out there isn't free.

Recovery, across games, is one of the biggest deciders of good vs bad characters

 

[Funbot28]

Recovery, across games, is one of the biggest deciders of good vs bad characters

except for Cloud

 

[Wintermelon43]

Please tell me how many time Brood or You3 got edgeguarded at Genesis 4.
If the answer is indeed rather low ( and it is ) , it's because of the fact that, while DH's recovery is bad:
- Using Can while UpB-ing at the same time is among the most efficient of way of recovering low.
- Recovery as a whole is among the most overrated flaws a character can have. It requires a character being in a special kind of disadvantage, only for you to edgeguard said character afterwards, which even against the worst recoeries out there isn't free.

Don't worry, i can hear you " But Ness! " or " But Bayo/Villager/Pikachu! ":
- Ness has more than just a bad recovery: He has bad range, isn't threatening from below, and has among the most reactable double jumps out there. All of these elements make it so that Ness will not only struggle to get back onto the stage, but also struggle to get past this disadvantage, as frame trapping & disjoints are very efficient against him.
- I said overrated, not bad. Edgeguarding can truly turn a few matchups upside down, but the key word here is " a few matchups ". A major flaw is a flaw that a majority of the relevant characters can actualy punish, not a matchup specific issue.

I was noticing this too at Genesis. I don't think You3, Brood, and Raito got gimped at all on stream. Duck Hunt's recovery issue is defitenly overblown, it's still bad but it's not on Roy or Robin's level, like people try to say a lot.

 

[blackghost]

what characters do top bayos usually lose to?

wadi more campy mewtwo does well also. mewtwo isnt really scared of getting witch timed in general.
ness and lucas i can see doing well but there isnt enough matches to analyze on in at those two characters are no shows in the meta.

 

[meticulousboy]

If we're talking about low tiers, I'm quite curious about how has been doing lately. Like I said earlier, a fighter with a godlike Up Air and great stage control thanks to Charge Shot deserves some metagame talk.

 

[outfoxd]

It's not Duck Hunts recovery that's rough so much as its his disadvantage when his resources are down. It's like being caught in a rough game of street fighter with no DP and no meter or V trigger to burn. His normals just don't have enough stank or coverage and he has no escaping burst option.

I think i usually get merked from being juggled or chased down with no can.

 

[chaos11011]

It's not Duck Hunts recovery that's rough so much as its his disadvantage when his resources are down. It's like being caught in a rough game of street fighter with no DP and no meter or V trigger to burn. His normals just don't have enough stank or coverage and he has no escaping burst option.

I think i usually get merked from being juggled or chased down with no can.

Even worse when they have a disjointed aerial it just knocks Can back, and sometimes, right back at you into a combo!

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Please tell me how many time Brood or You3 got edgeguarded at Genesis 4.
If the answer is indeed rather low ( and it is ) , it's because of the fact that, while DH's recovery is bad:
- Using Can while UpB-ing at the same time is among the most efficient of way of recovering low.
- Recovery as a whole is among the most overrated flaws a character can have. It requires a character being in a special kind of disadvantage, only for you to edgeguard said character afterwards, which even against the worst recoeries out there isn't free.

Don't worry, i can hear you " But Ness! " or " But Bayo/Villager/Pikachu! ":
- Ness has more than just a bad recovery: He has bad range, isn't threatening from below, and has among the most reactable double jumps out there. All of these elements make it so that Ness will not only struggle to get back onto the stage, but also struggle to get past this disadvantage, as frame trapping & disjoints are very efficient against him.
- I said overrated, not bad. Edgeguarding can truly turn a few matchups upside down, but the key word here is " a few matchups ". A major flaw is a flaw that a majority of the relevant characters can actualy punish, not a matchup specific issue.

Many players aren't willing to go off stage to edge guard to begin with, because they feel if they miss now they're in a bad spot. They don't really consider the risk vs reward, they'd much rather stay on stage and ledge trap where they feel nothing can go wrong than go out off stage and pressure their opponent there. Really makes a recovery not seem nearly as bad as it is when it's not being exploited often enough. But even if it isn't being exploited, it's still a flaw that some other characters don't have to deal with.

 

[ARISTOS]

With stage lists coming back on the agenda it would be good to have a conversation on how the different popular revisions would each impact our meta.

Right now, there seems to be three main revisions:

• 3 Stage List (SV/FD/BF)- T&C has been offered as a potential switch-in for SV, but I find it unlikely that that would happen
• 5 Stage List- This is the most common I've seen, with the stages going being a mix of DH, LC, and DL. It seems the most popular is either one of LC and DH leaving, with DL being the 2nd(due to its similarities to BF)
• 6 Stage List- Drop either DL or DH, it seems.

How would these changes affect your mains?

 

[FeelMeUp]

3 stage list(BF/SV/FD), 7 stage+2 bans no DSR, and 5 stage(Lylat included, no DL) are the main options I see.
3 stage is superb, but for diversity and game health 5 stage with no bans would be best.
Sheik/Diddy stay mostly the same. Diddy doesn't have to play Lylat as much but doesn't get his borderline broken DH counterpick. Sheik doesn't mind losing either stage, as she's good on all of them.

 

[Yikarur]

Lylat is one of Diddys best stages.
The rules should be kept like they are. They are perfectly fine.
7 Stages, 1 Ban, DSR
The stages we have right now are balanced pretty perfectly.

Overall
BF < - > DL
FD < - > DH
SV < - > TnC
are seen as "similar" with Lylat being the "very unique one".
If you remove any of the stages we get an imbalance which leads to a shift in meta, giving characters an advantage that are still favored by the pairs left over. (Those are not the only possible pairs, DL and TnC would be a pair as well, but the idea is clear)

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lylat is a pretty average stage for Diddy. It increases the random barrel deaths and he doesn't have the best platform pressure for a top tier. If I'm playing most of the other top tiers with Diddy I'd not necessarily ban it, but it wouldn't be my counterpick.
It's no FD/DH/T&C and isn't a BF either, but to call it one of the best is a little reach-y. Isn't MVD the only Diddy that has this opinion?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Stage discussion is interesting and all, but should we maybe take it elsewhere? In the stickied Stage Legality/Discussion Thread, perhaps?

https://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-discussion-thread-mk-iii.443701/

 

[ARISTOS]

Stage discussion is interesting and all, but should we maybe take it elsewhere? In the stickied Stage Legality/Discussion Thread, perhaps?

https://smashboards.com/threads/stage-legality-discussion-thread-mk-iii.443701/

I wanted to know less about what stages should/should not be legal, and more about how each given solution would affect the meta of a character played.

 

[Mario766]

Recovery, across games, is one of the biggest deciders of good vs bad characters

Melee wants a word with you.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Melee wants a word with you.

What, you mean the game where almost every top tier has a good recovery compared to the cast as a whole?

 

[TDK]

Unless you're Puff, Peach, or Samus, in Melee your recovery is meh, it's just about how meh.

 

[soniczx123]

Unless you're Puff, Peach, or Samus, in Melee your recovery is meh, it's just about how meh.

Basically this. About every top tier besides maybe Puff can be edgeguarded with relative ease. Spacies are one of the easiest.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What, you mean the game where almost every top tier has a good recovery compared to the cast as a whole?

Not to start a Melee discussion as this isn't the thread for it but isn't great, is easily ledge hogged and punished if they land on stage, is woeful, is linear and useless without Nana. Recovery in general isn't that hot in Melee due to ledge mechanics and higher gravity and the refined off stage and punish game of many players.

Relating it back to S4 though, characters have lower gravity overall, ledge trumping, magnetic ledges and some really absurd distances they can cover () for example be it multiple special moves, long distance Up specials or multiple jumps. Now while recoveries are so great in this game many players off stage punish game is still lacking letting thier opponents get back to ledge too easily. When off stage games continue to get more refined as the meta progresses the recoveries in Smash 4 won't seem as strong as they currently are.

 

[Routa]

Less stages would decrease Gunner's MU specific stage counterpick. Gunner enjoys FD, SV and T&C. These stages share the same open space with slight differences. The difference blastzones make the stage picking very MU depend.
For example against Cloud you want to go to SV due to closer side blastzones for killing Cloud earlier and for surviving longer due to Cloud's horizontal kill options being rather limited. And for Pit MU you want to go to T&C due to your better killgame vertically.
Stage counterpicking is very important for Gunner overall. Having less stages would do more harm than good

 

[The-Technique]

For example against Cloud you want to go to SV due to closer side blastzones for killing Cloud earlier and for surviving longer due to Cloud's horizontal kill options being rather limited.

waaaaait...cloud has bad horizontal kill options, wut? are you sure about that?

 

[Guido65]

waaaaait...cloud has bad horizontal kill options, wut? are you sure about that?

He didn't say cloud's horizontal kill options were bad he said they were limited.