Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Peppermint1201]

Welcome to Competitive Impressions, where you're not allowed to have opinions or a small shred of optimism for low/bottom tiers.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but inadequate tools are inadequate. If you want to argue for a low-tier, explain how their pros can outweigh their cons / how they are incorrectly perceived by the community instead of pointing at a bad move and saying "this is a good move".

 

[TheGoodGuava]

How is this even happening? Defending Ganon's utilt is like saying Falco is a low high tier.. "It can break shields though" isn't enough to justify it, if you can't react to a whole 1.3 seconds of startup with no mixups you might as well quit smash altogether.

 

[Shaya]

Ganon's up tilt is the gambler's way of saying to the opponent "this is my hand / next move" and through the interactions thus far they've already broken them down to the point that they can force whatever they want through sheer will </anime>.
If Diddy had ganon's up tilt, you'd probably see it used to hilarious affect, sometimes LOL.

But
another point

Every human being is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to say it without repercussion. Many in this modern world feel entitled to say whatever comes to mind (silly or nonsensical things) without scrutinizing the idea in the first place (every human being ever is guilty of this); and then when retorted essentially respond with "you should respect my opinion, my feelings are important" which serves very little purpose other than to avoid detriment to one's own ego while attempting to make others feel bad, LOL? I find the tendency hard not to see it at the very least as selfish, tbh.
When you get hit down and choose to get up again, you come back stronger.

Also another reminder that this thread is meant to be competitive level analytical discussion, the anecdotes you base your opinions off should be from a suitable level of play (note: no, that doesn't mean top level play only).

But, there is a valid train of thought that the general section could afford to have a thread for character impressions, free of the more rigid standards happens here :thinking:


But oh, not ALL SERIOUSNESS BUSINESS from me today, I come bearing a gift!!!

Spoiler: A TRUE LITMUS TEST FOR SMASH4 HONESTY:

Your character is honest if all the following things apply:
1. You don't automatically punish Falco's jab on hit for free
2. You don't have guaranteed damage from throws all the way until ko% and beyond.
3. (wifi only) your character doesn't have exceptional amounts of hit lag (modifiers, high damage, too many multihits) that completely destroy the game's netcode, denying inputs to your opponent so you can almost pretend ganon and the like have guaranteed block strings.

This might mean Mewtwo is honest, half the time (he doesn't always get to fair falco for jabbing IIRC).

 

[money1246]

Emblem Lord I may be late or you may have wrote about it already but how did you view Nairo's Ryu vs Zero at Zero Saga? I feel like it did pretty well barring that game on duck hunt (which is to be expected vs. a character with good mobility). What did you like and what didn't you like?

 

[KenMeister]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but inadequate tools are inadequate. If you want to argue for a low-tier, explain how their pros can outweigh their cons / how they are incorrectly perceived by the community instead of pointing at a bad move and saying "this is a good move".

Whoever said I agreed? I just hate when people shut down other's say on things without giving it a proper counterargument and proper reasoning behind why it's bad. Instead we just close it down all-together without giving it proper closure. This kind of bull**** is exactly where misinformation comes from, and why character knowledge across the entire cast (especially the lower half) is still not all too clear even coming into 2017.

Now if I had a say on things, up tilt is an okay ledge frame trap move and has ways of pressuring people off of it if they time it right, but again, it's more or less a stylish read and Ganon has better options anyway (like upsmash pressure or nair). Plus it doesn't help that the reward on the move alone doesn't even justify its worth. =/

 

[FeelMeUp]

Emblem Lord I may be late or you may have wrote about it already but how did you view Nairo's Ryu vs Zero at Zero Saga? I feel like it did pretty well barring that game on duck hunt (which is to be expected vs. a character with good mobility). What did you like and what didn't you like?

Not a Ryu expert, but didn't he fail to do anything special but managed to snag a game solely on nickle and dime aerials+Shoryuken?
All that showing did was reveal that top 10 is even more arbitrary than I thought. Player skill gaps overinflate how much certain characters seem to dominate others.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

On a side note I've already brought this up on the character board but what would seriously help zard as a solo character versus the rest of the On the character board we all agreed zard needs better traction but when I brought up better air speed I was told it would give zard a dthrow to sweetspot bair true combo. Anyone agree with this?

 

[Das Koopa]

Database is completely up to date with the methodology announced in late November. Here's the weekly results compiled together:

Spoiler: January, Week 1

Mega Smash Mondays 79 (January 2nd) (Southern California) (201 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: VoiD
2nd: Rich Brown
3rd: Charliedaking
4th: Nicko
5th: SaSSy
5th: Ant
7th: Elegant
7th: Mr. ConCon
9th: Scizor
9th: Aarvark
9th: K9
9th: Das
13th: NotLast
13th: XYosher
13th: Razo
13th: Sura

S@X 01/03/17 (January 3rd) (MD/VA) (110 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Vex Kasrani
2nd: Pink Fresh ,
3rd: Black Yoshi
4th: WaDi
5th: Dexter
5th: ZD
7th: Zephyr
7th: Biddy

Kumite in Tennessee (January 6th-8th) (Southeast) (111 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Dabuz
2nd: ANTi ,
3rd: Pugwest
4th: Wrath
5th: Sonido
5th: Ketsen ,
7th: TheReflexWonder
7th: Dog W/ Hips

PPT Winter (January 6th-8th) (Germany) (133 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Cyve ,
3rd: Sodrek,
4th: Destany
5th: Wusi
5th: Luigi_Player ,
7th: RobinGG
7th: Luis ,

Midwest Mayhem 6 (January 7th) (Midwest) (285 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: Zinoto
2nd: James ,
3rd: Elegant
4th: Tyrant
5th: Rich Brown
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Ally
7th: Xane
9th: Tyroy
9th: Zenyou
9th: K9
9th: MJG
13th: Aarvark
13th: Ned
13th: DarkShad
13th: Ozone

Smash Conference LXIX (January 7th) (Florida) (225 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: Salem
2nd: Samsora ,
3rd: ESAM ,
4th: Mew2King
5th: Myran
5th: WormyNugget ,
7th: Mr. E
7th: Nick Riddle ,
9th: Manny
9th: MuteAce
9th: Child
9th: Zurak
13th: MVD
13th: Day
13th: RoguePenguin
13th: Cashmere


GUMS 12 (January 7th) (New England) (71 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Marss ,
2nd: Light
3rd: Pelca ,
4th: Raffi-X

SGC 2017 (January 7th-8th) (Japan, Tokyo) (193 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: KEN
2nd: 9B
3rd: Choco
4th: Kirihara
5th: Nyanko
5th: Umeki
7th: Mao
7th: Atelier
9th: Kishi
9th: Tsu-
9th: Pichi
9th: Abadango
13th: Lea
13th: T
13th: Yuzu
13th: Tosshi

SurGGe (January 7th) (South, Texas) (142 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Twi
2nd: Megafox
3rd: Karna
4th: Hakii ,
5th: Jerm
5th: iFox ,
7th: Lucy
7th: GrimTurtle

Smash the Resolution (January 8th) (Canada) (88 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Holy
3rd: Deathorse
4th: Stroumbert
5th: Fairlines
5th: BreaD
7th: Khal
7th: Smokk

 

[ARGHETH]

Smash Conference LXIX (January 7th) (Florida) (225 Entrants) (Category 3)
4th: Mew2King

I'm assuming this isn't intentional?

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm not very expert on Diddy tech discoveries, but isnt Zero the first person to edgeguard using: Monkey flip spike on Ness and strong monkey flip to b-reverse pop gun cancel bair offstage (i.e vs locus)? He might not be the closest to optimising his character but he still is an innovator.

Saying Zero revolves around 5 moves is an exaggeration but I do agree with the idea. Zero plays around what he knows are the most powerful options and dominates people using these options.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Look at all the
It's beautiful ^_^

Also who did Samsora use Rosa against? I'd imagine Bayo?

 

[bc1910]

Every human being is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to say it without repercussion. Many in this modern world feel entitled to say whatever comes to mind (silly or nonsensical things) without scrutinizing the idea in the first place (every human being ever is guilty of this); and then when retorted essentially respond with "you should respect my opinion, my feelings are important" which serves very little purpose other than to avoid detriment to one's own ego while attempting to make others feel bad, LOL? I find the tendency hard not to see it at the very least as selfish, tbh.
When you get hit down and choose to get up again, you come back stronger.

Also another reminder that this thread is meant to be competitive level analytical discussion, the anecdotes you base your opinions off should be from a suitable level of play (note: no, that doesn't mean top level play only).

But, there is a valid train of thought that the general section could afford to have a thread for character impressions, free of the more rigid standards happens here :thinking:

He wasn't really offering an opinion either. At best, it was an opinion built off incorrect fact.

But yeah, I wonder if there is a cutoff point for punishing Falco's jab on it. Some combination of weight and fall speed would likely tell us which characters definitively can and can't punish it on hit. Though there are some anomalies, for example I don't believe D3 can punish it on hit (could be wrong) despite having a very fast fall speed.

 

[ARISTOS]

Look at all the
It's beautiful ^_^

Also who did Samsora use Rosa against? I'd imagine Bayo?

Went Rosa vs Bayo in Grands. Lost 3-1

 

[Illusion.]

SurGGe (January 7th) (South, Texas) (142 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Twi
2nd: Megafox
3rd: Karna
4th: Hakii ,
5th: Jerm
5th: iFox ,
7th: Lucy
7th: GrimTurtle

Twi and Megafox agreed to split after Megafox reset bracket.

Technically, neither got 1st. I don't know how you plan on handling this though.

 

[|RK|]

Not a Ryu expert, but didn't he fail to do anything special but managed to snag a game solely on nickle and dime aerials+Shoryuken?
All that showing did was reveal that top 10 is even more arbitrary than I thought. Player skill gaps overinflate how much certain characters seem to dominate others.

100%.

Best Bowser main? Knows every move Bowser has for every situation, uses appropriately.

Most successful Bowser main? Grab into whatever, whenever, because he can.

 

[Das Koopa]

Twi and Megafox agreed to split after Megafox reset bracket.

Technically, neither got 1st. I don't know how you plan on handling this though.

I was aware and decided to have Twi be counted as 1st since he entered GFs through winners side

 

[TDK]

Database is completely up to date with the methodology announced in late November. Here's the weekly results compiled together:

Spoiler: January, Week 1

Mega Smash Mondays 79 (January 2nd) (Southern California) (201 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: VoiD
2nd: Rich Brown
3rd: Charliedaking
4th: Nicko
5th: SaSSy
5th: Ant
7th: Elegant
7th: Mr. ConCon
9th: Scizor
9th: Aarvark
9th: K9
9th: Das
13th: NotLast
13th: XYosher
13th: Razo
13th: Sura

S@X 01/03/17 (January 3rd) (MD/VA) (110 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Vex Kasrani
2nd: Pink Fresh ,
3rd: Black Yoshi
4th: WaDi
5th: Dexter
5th: ZD
7th: Zephyr
7th: Biddy

Kumite in Tennessee (January 6th-8th) (Southeast) (111 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Dabuz
2nd: ANTi ,
3rd: Pugwest
4th: Wrath
5th: Sonido
5th: Ketsen ,
7th: TheReflexWonder
7th: Dog W/ Hips

PPT Winter (January 6th-8th) (Germany) (133 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: Cyve ,
3rd: Sodrek,
4th: Destany
5th: Wusi
5th: Luigi_Player ,
7th: RobinGG
7th: Luis ,

Midwest Mayhem 6 (January 7th) (Midwest) (285 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: Zinoto
2nd: James ,
3rd: Elegant
4th: Tyrant
5th: Rich Brown
5th: Captain Zack
7th: Ally
7th: Xane
9th: Tyroy
9th: Zenyou
9th: K9
9th: MJG
13th: Aarvark
13th: Ned
13th: DarkShad
13th: Ozone

Smash Conference LXIX (January 7th) (Florida) (225 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: Salem
2nd: Samsora ,
3rd: ESAM ,
4th: Mew2King
5th: Myran
5th: WormyNugget ,
7th: Mr. E
7th: Nick Riddle ,
9th: Manny
9th: MuteAce
9th: Child
9th: Zurak
13th: MVD
13th: Day
13th: RoguePenguin
13th: Cashmere


GUMS 12 (January 7th) (New England) (71 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Marss ,
2nd: Light
3rd: Pelca ,
4th: Raffi-X

SGC 2017 (January 7th-8th) (Japan, Tokyo) (193 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: KEN
2nd: 9B
3rd: Choco
4th: Kirihara
5th: Nyanko
5th: Umeki
7th: Mao
7th: Atelier
9th: Kisha
9th: Tsu-
9th: Pichi
9th: Abadango
13th: Lea
13th: T
13th: Yuzu
13th: Tosshi

SurGGe (January 7th) (South, Texas) (142 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Twi
2nd: Megafox
3rd: Karna
4th: Hakii ,
5th: Jerm
5th: iFox ,
7th: Lucy
7th: GrimTurtle

Smash the Resolution (January 8th) (Canada) (88 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Holy
3rd: Deathorse
4th: Stroumbert
5th: Fairlines
5th: BreaD
7th: Khal
7th: Smokk

Yay, I get to do one of these again ^_^

Spoiler: Total Amount of top 16/8s

10 in top 16, 8 in top 8
10 in top 16, 6 in top 8
9 in top 16, 7 in top 8
8 in top 16, 7 in top 8
7 in top 16, 6 in top 8
7 in top 16, 4 in top 8
6 in top 16, 5 in top 8
5 in top 8, 5 in top 16 [100%]
5 in top 16, 4 in top 8
5 in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 in top 16, 4 in top 8 [100%]
4 in top 16, 4 in top 8 [100%]
4 in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 3 in top 8 [100%]
3 in top16, 3 in top 8 (100%)
3 in top 16, 3 in top 8 [100%]
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 [100%\
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 [100%]
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8

Winners:
Losers:

Luigi and Peach both made huge strides this week, with every single Luigi making top 8 and more Peaches than I've ever seen make top 16/8. Rob did well this week though not as well, and this might be the best week for Rosalina in a long time. Sheik and Cloud still did well, although seeing Cloud not be top 2 in this threw me off a little, and Sheik below Luigi seems strange to me, though whatever Sheik does show up does top 8.

So yeah, don't kick Rosa out of the top 10 just yet.

Spoiler: top 16 but it's an image

Spoiler: Top 8 but it's an image

I think this pretty accurately represents the meta with just a few outliers. Luigi, ROB, and Peach are surprisingly high (With Luigi and Peach hitting the top 10) and there are a few other outliers:

- Wario and Little Mac aren't really that relevant but are two characters you can't really ever count out.
- The Links (Yes, Both of them) seem to have decently high top 16 placements but very few Top 8 placements. Maybe it's their character design?

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm not very expert on Diddy tech discoveries, but isnt Zero the first person to edgeguard using: Monkey flip spike on Ness and strong monkey flip to b-reverse pop gun cancel bair offstage (i.e vs locus)? .

Pretty sure not. Just the first to be on stream doing it, or having done it in tournament.

I do agree ZeRo pushes metas and plays more complex than "5 moves" though he really does have a strict gameplan depending on the player/char so I understand why people might think that.

 

[Omastar]

ZeRo considers Bowser at the top of high tier and possibly top tier soon. What is everyone's thoughts on the matter? I personally think people are overhyping the character and aren't playing anti-grab/lame enough.

Video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eEj5vIvOOg

 

[ARISTOS]

ZeRo considers Bowser at the top of high tier and possibly top tier soon. What is everyone's thoughts on the matter? I personally think people are overhyping the character and aren't playing anti-grab/lame enough.

Video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eEj5vIvOOg

ZeRo does this kind of thing after every big character showing.

It's interesting to see but I wouldn't look too much into it.

EDIT: Funny tidbit that ZeRo made me remember was the nerf Bowser got to up-throw immediately after he got it

 

[SaltyKracka]

People are confusing Nairo for Bowser.

We'll see what happens when and if he ever pulls it out again, and what other Bowsers do in the meantime.

 

[T4ylor]

There are plenty of good Bowsers around. We'll probably be seeing more of him this year since Mix did say he is wanting to going out to more of the larger events. And Kisha has been doing exceptionally well as of late, including 2 recent wins on Ranai.

My opinion of Bowser has gone up quite a lot recently, though it was before Nairo ever pulled him out, guess I'm hipster. I think he's potentially high tier and that the only match ups that are notably bad for him are ZSS and Rosa (Sonic and Duck Hunt to a lesser extent).

 

[ShadowCalibur]

After actually playing koopzilla i view him to be high on the tier list but one character i view to be high would be Roy why do so many people rank him so low

 

[TDK]

After actually playing koopzilla i view him to be high on the tier list but one character i view to be high would be Roy why do so many people rank him so low

Because he's bad.

EDIT: Short Explanation: A fast strong character isn't enough to compensate for a horrible disadvantage, light weight, and one of the worst recoveries in the game. His Range isn't amazing, either.

 

[DunnoBro]

ZeRo considers Bowser at the top of high tier and possibly top tier soon. What is everyone's thoughts on the matter? I personally think people are overhyping the character and aren't playing anti-grab/lame enough.

Video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eEj5vIvOOg

You can't "just play anti-grab" vs bowser unless you have super lame tools to do so. His ability to net a raw grab is probably the best in the game, only beaten out by those who can trap for grabs. (Diddy, Sheik, Etc)

Furthermore, unlike DK his ledge trapping is AMAZING. Easily among the best in the game. THIS is why it might seem like people aren't playing lame enough. Because they're avoiding grabbing the ledge when landing, cause that can get them killed too.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo considers Bowser at the top of high tier and possibly top tier soon. What is everyone's thoughts on the matter? I personally think people are overhyping the character and aren't playing anti-grab/lame enough.

Video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eEj5vIvOOg

It's hard to play Anti-grab when your opponent's pivot grab is the size of one Battlefield platform and can additionally grab you on the ground while you are on said platform. Just saying.

 

[Rizen]

ZeRo has said Rosalina and Ryu were the best character in the past. Take it with a grain of salt. :/

Bowser certainly is good, not top tier imo but his survival rate and kill game will keep him in the meta even at high level play. I see anti-bowser tactics being more aggressive towards bowser. When I watch Bowser games like ones with Lordmix I think 'you're playing at arm's length from Bowser which is right where he wants you! Stay on him; his frame data is terrible.'

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord I may be late or you may have wrote about it already but how did you view Nairo's Ryu vs Zero at Zero Saga? I feel like it did pretty well barring that game on duck hunt (which is to be expected vs. a character with good mobility). What did you like and what didn't you like?

If anything it was a very REAL reminder of what Ryu's limitations are in the meta and vs one of the two best characters in the game is. Look at how much baiting and empty jumping Nairo was doing. He had to play so far ahead just to even hope to win an exchange. He was never in control. He never limited Diddy. He played for single powerful hits and then had to do all that work again.

And even THEN, what clinched a game was a shoryuken-read based on habits and patterns. But this kind of gameplan just is not sustainable. As we have seen time and time again. Plus Diddy with just two buttons alone can hold his own against a myriad of Ryu's options. It actually makes me chuckle.

ZeRo also did what ALOT of players need to start doing, but they don't because it either doesn't occur to them or they are just freaked out by Ryu's power. He exploited Ryu's commitment. He NEVER challenged anything he didn't have too. Ryu jumped at me? Roll towards him. Ryu running at me? Jump back or do an action that he cannot intercept on pure reaction or is at least difficult to do so (Monkey Flip). The reason why most players do not do this is because they respect and fear the character so much even though data has shown this is a real flaw in his gameplan. I can see it because duh I play other games so I can see Ryu's weaknesses as he has transitioned from one engine to this one.

ZeRo can see it and abuse it because he is ZeRo. The difference between a champion and 99% of the community.

So yeah I liked it because it was intelligent play. I disliked it because in the end it was more or less what we have seen Ryu do vs good characters.

Never be in control
Lose in footsies generally, even though HE IS A FOOTSIE BASED CHARACTER (This is beyond frustrating)
Specials be mostly useless
Forced to guess to get anything done

Then get stage counter picked, camped out and lose

GG

 

[Omastar]

ZeRo is like M2K when it comes to character placements and of course should always be taken with a grain of salt. Let me elaborate a little as to what I mean. Most of the top tiers can play very lame and have the tools to do so and if not exploit his inability to land. He can be a great counterpick character, but currently people are conflating player skill with what the character is capable of. I can't see solo Bowser getting far in larger tournaments because of poor matchups and people learning the mu. He will always have a place at higher levels of play because of players like Nairo and his strengths, but I don't see him eventually being at top tier or being the best high tier either.

 

[ShadowCalibur]

Because he's bad.

EDIT: Short Explanation: A fast strong character isn't enough to compensate for a horrible disadvantage, light weight, and one of the worst recoveries in the game. His Range isn't amazing, either.

Jist because of lightweight doesnt mean hes bad look at fox or pikachu granted they are more combo oriented and jont have very good range outside of the projectiles and f smashed (yes pikachu has thunder) obviously the recovery can be a problem but roys second jump is pretty good at least it isnt littlemac roy does have combos which need to be spaced properly for the sour spot so you dont launch them too far (ps roy is a lightweight? i figured he was middleweight)

 

[AusJJV]

Jist because of lightweight doesnt mean hes bad look at fox or pikachu granted they are more combo oriented and jont have very good range outside of the projectiles and f smashed (yes pikachu has thunder) obviously the recovery can be a problem but roys second jump is pretty good at least it isnt littlemac roy does have combos which need to be spaced properly for the sour spot so you dont launch them too far (ps roy is a lightweight? i figured he was middleweight)

Don't know everything about Roy but I'll try my best.

Roy isn't lightweight, his weight is 95, he's right in the middle, as the 30th heaviest, a pure middleweight. BUT with a bad recovery it kinda worsens this because that doesn't matter that much when your recovery is that bad. Robin is equal in weight to Roy, but he has a better recovery, by a fair margin, overall increasing his survivability. It doesn't matter only if your weight plays a factor, but falling speed, gravity, recovery all play a part into survivability. Roy's a fast faller with a bad recovery as well as slow air acceleration, so yeah, that's not good.

Just compare Ganon and Dedede. Similar weights, but who has a superior recovery?

Also, Roy doesn't have projectiles, so we can't really compare that to Fox and Pikachu, but most of Roy's moves are disjointed, which helps. Its just a shame that unlike normal swords, Roy's tipper is as weak as a pool noodle (I believe someone else has made this joke so credit to them).

And yes, even though the sourspots can be used for combos, you'll eventually have to get in close, which kinda negates the sourspots at higher percents. So even though he technically has good range, it's the reason why Marth is successful. Marth has good range, with good damage at the TIP, therefore encouraging players to space, Roy can't do that. His design forces him to get in close, making that range simply average in reality, not something you want from a swordsman.

I'm not the most knowledgeable of Roy so please correct me if I'm wrong. Hopefully this can give a better insight into not just Roy but Smash in general.

 

[Nobie]

A while back, someone asked how Ryu's Hadouken frame data in Smash 4 compared to SF games.

Turns out, in just about every SF game Ryu's fireball is faster in terms of first active frame.

It's likely that Hadouken was made less good on purpose, and that Ryu's difficulty getting in is a very intentional weakness (maybe to compensate for his combos?).

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...it's pretty clear that the dev team feared a Ryu at his full potential.

If Ryu was even closer to his SF roots he would run and walk faster. Hadouken would be transcendent and recover faster. Jab shoryuken would not go as high making it a far less risky AA option. He would be able to special cancel out of up smash and down smash too. He would have been crazy.

Nintendo was right to fear that kind of potential.

 

[ShadowCalibur]

Don't know everything about Roy but I'll try my best.

Roy isn't lightweight, his weight is 95, he's right in the middle, as the 30th heaviest, a pure middleweight. BUT with a bad recovery it kinda worsens this because that doesn't matter that much when your recovery is that bad. Robin is equal in weight to Roy, but he has a better recovery, by a fair margin, overall increasing his survivability. It doesn't matter only if your weight plays a factor, but falling speed, gravity, recovery all play a part into survivability. Roy's a fast faller with a bad recovery as well as slow air acceleration, so yeah, that's not good.

Just compare Ganon and Dedede. Similar weights, but who has a superior recovery?

Also, Roy doesn't have projectiles, so we can't really compare that to Fox and Pikachu, but most of Roy's moves are disjointed, which helps. Its just a shame that unlike normal swords, Roy's tipper is as weak as a pool noodle (I believe someone else has made this joke so credit to them).

And yes, even though the sourspots can be used for combos, you'll eventually have to get in close, which kinda negates the sourspots at higher percents. So even though he technically has good range, it's the reason why Marth is successful. Marth has good range, with good damage at the TIP, therefore encouraging players to space, Roy can't do that. His design forces him to get in close, making that range simply average in reality, not something you want from a swordsman.

I'm not the most knowledgeable of Roy so please correct me if I'm wrong. Hopefully this can give a better insight into not just Roy but Smash in general.

lets not forget that his speed is very high and all his attacks have almost no start up or ending lag plus Ryo beat abadango's mewtwo with roy

 

[Fenny]

Roy's killing potential is diminished by the fact that he has no safe ways of actually setting up for kills.

He has a terrible disadvantage state and yet he's forced to commit to get anything worthwhile, which is his fatal flaw.

Compare to Marth and Lucina who for the most part have the same moveset as Roy and yet they are rewarded for spacing out opponents (especially Marth), which allows them to exploit their disjoints as a swordie should. Their better recoveries also make them terrifying to fight off stage.

Also compare to Falcon who has a problem in disadvantage like Roy (though not to the same extent) but has a great advantage state that he can get off of his amazing grab and superior mobility.

Roy seems decent on paper but in actuality he's awfully limited. He's meant to be a rushdown character but gets punished so hard for being one.

 

[Ulevo]

What are the match ups within the Top 15 that Bowser wins or goes even with?



Without having extensive knowledge on these match ups, this is what I would say looks to be his more favourable ones.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy's killing potential is diminished by the fact that he has no safe ways of actually setting up for kills.

He has a terrible disadvantage state and yet he's forced to commit to get anything worthwhile, which is his fatal flaw.

Compare to Marth and Lucina who for the most part have the same moveset as Roy and yet they are rewarded for spacing out opponents (especially Marth), which allows them to exploit their disjoints as a swordie should. Their better recoveries also make them terrifying to fight off stage.

Also compare to Falcon who has a problem in disadvantage like Roy (though not to the same extent) but has a great advantage state that he can get off of his amazing grab and superior mobility.

Roy seems decent on paper but in actuality he's awfully limited. He's meant to be a rushdown character but gets punished so hard for being one.

Roy seems to be moreso bait-and-punish than rushdown, if you ask me.

i will agree he is pretty underwhelming, I have a pretty low opinion of the character myself.

 

[T4ylor]

What are the match ups within the Top 15 that Bowser wins or goes even with?



Without having extensive knowledge on these match ups, this is what I would say looks to be his more favourable ones.

From my experience I think he goes even with, if not beats, all but Sheik and Bayonetta. Bayonetta is doable, but that more so depends on the Bayonetta not being on point with their combo game and fair chaining you offstage. If the Sheik isn't playing exceptionally well and letting you get in on her, then Bowser's going to do fine. I also believe Diddy is close to even, Bowser has been my counterpick to him the past month.

 

[Fenny]

What are the match ups within the Top 15 that Bowser wins or goes even with?



Without having extensive knowledge on these match ups, this is what I would say looks to be his more favourable ones.

Bayo and Shiek are characters who can reduce him to a punching bag most days but get Smash 4'd by him on others. Shiek shouldn't really be getting touched by him in general, but it's counteracted by the fact that Bowser often lives to absurd percents against her and the times he does touch her put her in a life or death situation. Bayo's main issue is that she can either kill him really early or really late outside of gimping, and Bowser's grab game is particularly lethal on her so rage is even more of a factor (although she can Bat Within out of his grab combos pretty effectively). She can also whittle his shield down with SH Fair mix-ups but in general you don't really want to play too aggro against him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I was aware and decided to have Twi be counted as 1st since he entered GFs through winners side

I don't know. If Megafox got the bracket reset he should be treated as 1st imo, unless Twi was the one who put him in losers bracket in the first place.

What are the match ups within the Top 15 that Bowser wins or goes even with?



Without having extensive knowledge on these match ups, this is what I would say looks to be his more favourable ones.

Bowser vs Fox is even :3