Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

How about Cloud vs Ryu? How does that matchup go? Sounds like both of them can just destroy each other.

He said Cloud's relevant matchups. :eyes:

But to be serious, Emblem Lord said a while ago it was slightly Cloud's favor I think.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I don't know, the v MU is an interesting one. Megs is one of the few characters that can hold his own against Cloud fairly comfortably, but at the same time, Cloud can juggle Megs pretty badly. I've seen it as 55:45 in Megs's favor, but the MU can be potentially debated.

 

[Megamang]

Clouds gameplan just isnt suffocating for Mega like most characters. Ill happily shield your aerial approach, roll out when its safe, then start pelleting or grab a metal blade.

All of your aerials hitting my shield is an instant advantage if I have metal blade to OoS glide toss. If i get a bair off of this you can end up offstage, the blade can be a true combo to bair, which is bad news.

Bair in general is scary AF for Cloud, combined with Mega's amazing air accel its hard to not get gimped. recovering low can be pestered with dair, metal blade zdrop, or leaf shield on stage of bair again (really easy to hit untechable zone)

Since you have to rise to use most options, getting stuffed with a pellet sucks.

My dash to shield is a amazing amazing pressure tool with metal blade. You want a good aerial > landing poke, or strong grab game, to deal with this, neither of which Cloud particularly excels at.


But, its not that bad because if you land a uair you do 80%, you have best airspeed, and general Cloud stuff.


But not having to compete with you in CQC ever is a blessing, and unlike Villager i dont trade good zoning for horrific mobility that Cloud corners and murders.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't know about that. In theory, Cloud has some pretty strong tools to deal with ZSS. One major thing you forgot to account for is that ZSS almost always has to use falling aerials as her rising aerials will whiff, and she can't hit Cloud with a rising Zair either. Since she HAS to fall a bit to hit Cloud with these moves, this makes her very vulnerable to his D tilt (honestly, this move is godlike against SH aerials and more Cloud's need to focus on countering aerial approaches with this). She also has kinda bad OoS options. Frame 4 Boost Kick is scary and respectable, but Cloud's up air, bair, and fair are still able to effectively pressure her shield due to the pushback and range of these moves.

Cloud is also one of the few characters that can fall out her up B pretty often. And not like the "get pushed off the top and die earlier" fall out either. KuroganeHammer made a ZSS commentator card recently which staates that the 7th hit of her Boost Kick can weakly meteor Cloud. If she whiffs a Boost Kick and is too high up, ZSS can die to a revenge Up air/Finishing Touch.

If it counts for anything, I personally think that the MU is even. I've played it several times with a good ZSS in my state, and we usually go back and forth in sets. Whoever gets momentum first usually takes it.

Zero Suit Samus doesn't have to rush Cloud down and run in with falling aerials. In fact, that's not even what she's designed to do. ZSS is not a rushdown character, no matter what anyone says. Her falling nair and dash grab are not great approaches in the neutral. What Zero Suit Samus does is she uses her mobility to get in her opponent's space and forces them to "do something" in response that she can then punish with either a grab or a falling nair when she finds an opening. In Cloud's case, Zero Suit likes to get into the range where charging limit is an unfavorable and unsafe option, while also keeping just enough outside of Cloud's disjoint range so that she can react to whatever he throws out. OOS upb isn't all she has either; she has a frame 1 jab that can immaculately punish Cloud misspacing aerials on her shield, and she's mobile enough to put Cloud in those positions. Then she just blows him up in disadvantage.

I don't see how this matchup can be favorable Cloud. Obviously he still has an advantage in raw kill power and has a better neutral in a vacuum, but ZSS is just so much better at punishing his stuff and then gets punished less for making mistakes.

 

[Locke 06]

All of your aerials hitting my shield is an instant advantage if I have metal blade to OoS glide toss. If i get a bair off of this you can end up offstage, the blade can be a true combo to bair, which is bad news.

In order to jump cancel item toss forward>BAir with Mega, you need to drop shield, run forward, jump>throw. You can't do it directly from shield, so MB item toss OoS>BAir does not link nearly as well from that situation as it does in others.

Megaman's item toss is f11. This gets abused by Clouds who can space and time landing aerials outside of footstool OoS range.

 

[blackghost]

There's also a ton of things you can do to Bayo because her ground dodges are so trash and no moves to make up for it. First properly invincible frame is 5, compared to most characters's 3.

Partly because of her physics Jab > grab should be an option for plenty of characters. Meanwhile moves that'd force a spotdodge or roll on shield she can only hope you don't grab.

that also explains why matches of her vs zss are so explosive. zss when able to grab her canreally end her stock in a quick boost combo.
but bayo had had almost the exact inverse effect that fox (bayo rise putting a ceiling on fox)has recently experienced with the vanishing of ness. while i dont think ness counters bayo the bthrow of ness is everything a bayo main/player hates. its a kill option that witch time cannot be used as a deterrent. ness air mobility and double jump can make it hard for bayo to chase as well. pk fire is very effective at keeping her out and upair just plain hurts. Chasing bayo into the air with a kill move is safer than doing it on the ground most of the time. even if she witch times she USUALLY cannot confirm major damage of a witch time activated in midair. lucas to a smaller extent also has this but he lacks the pure vertical combo threat of zss and his grab is just a worse than ness' most of the time.
overall bayo has been lucky that these characters are mostly gone because of more common top tier that essentialy have pushed them from the metagame.
also shiek is still a thing even to bayo players:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhJymF898y0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3L0T3s3xG8

 

[verbatim]

Anecdotal evidence via Kameme beating Komorikiri. Nothing major.

I think, at least in the Megaman Cloud matchup, that that has more to do with Kameme's skill as a player rather than the matchup, kind of how he's undefeated against Mr R. and Void across 3 sets even though people consider Sheik to be one of Megaman's worst matchups. That being said, Megaman probably does pretty well against Cloud in a vacuum. I would lean closer to even or slightly losing, but I can see why people would say that he wins.


Tangent:
Generally speaking, when people are talking about characters that they think beat Cloud, they all follow more or less the same pattern (Diddy Kong, Sheik, etc). They play the neutral primarily to push him offstage and ledgetrap or edgeguard him. The under-looked component here is pushing him offstage. There are a lot of characters that have really potent edgeguard games against Cloud that lose pretty badly to him because they can't consistently get him offstage (Villager, Luigi, etc).


In that regard, one obscure character that I'd argue does well (not beat) against Cloud is Pit. For otherwise being a rather average character, his disjoints give him a decent neutral game against Cloud and his Down Smash is an incredibly effective way to edgeguard him.

Case in point, Tweek and Earth's 5 minute set from EVO 2016

 

[Nathan Richardson]

If I could say that zard vs. cloud is actually pretty decent, yes zard is at a disadvantage but it's more like 45/55 cloud's favor. Reason being is that zard has a longer grab range than cloud, cloud beats zard in the air and his d-grab to cross slash is a guaranteed hit but once zard builds up rage AND manages to grab cloud he easily gimps him due to flamethrower. I'm gotten a ton of early stock locks by simply edgeguarding cloud with flamethrower that I don't really remember the last time I lost to a cloud player in a FG fight (which SHOULD be cloud's specialty as zard can't use platforms to reach him)

 

[irokex13]

Zero Suit Samus doesn't have to rush Cloud down and run in with falling aerials. In fact, that's not even what she's designed to do. ZSS is not a rushdown character, no matter what anyone says. Her falling nair and dash grab are not great approaches in the neutral. What Zero Suit Samus does is she uses her mobility to get in her opponent's space and forces them to "do something" in response that she can then punish with either a grab or a falling nair when she finds an opening. In Cloud's case, Zero Suit likes to get into the range where charging limit is an unfavorable and unsafe option, while also keeping just enough outside of Cloud's disjoint range so that she can react to whatever he throws out. OOS upb isn't all she has either; she has a frame 1 jab that can immaculately punish Cloud misspacing aerials on her shield, and she's mobile enough to put Cloud in those positions. Then she just blows him up in disadvantage.

I don't see how this matchup can be favorable Cloud. Obviously he still has an advantage in raw kill power and has a better neutral in a vacuum, but ZSS is just so much better at punishing his stuff and then gets punished less for making mistakes.

That's just it. Cloud forces her to approach. ZSS can't really camp Cloud. She has to get in and do "something". I disagree with your breakdown of this MU because I don't see how ZSS can force Cloud to make the first move. Even if she gets close, how does she force Cloud to make a move first? While she has a strong punish for everything he does, he has an answer for everything she can do.

ZSS dashes in? SH nair, pivot f tilt/grab.
ZSS jumps in with an aerial? D tilt.
ZSS dash grabbed? Spot dodge Cross Slash/Finishing Touch.
ZSS used the Paralyzer to approach? Shield and then react to one of the three options above.

She has a strong punish game on him, that much is certainly true. But you cannot ignore his punish game on her. At early percents, up tilt/up air can build damage quickly. Having a frame 10 anti air that does 19% also helps build damage. Once she hits about 80-85%, she can die center stage to LCS. And any whiffed grab past 65% is instant death thanks to Finishing Touch. Cloud can devastate ZSS in disadvantage as well. If she is recovering and Cloud has limit, she has to carefully choose a recovery option.

Recover high with Flip Jump? Nair/Bair/LCS catches her.
Swing low with a tether? Drop zone LCS and B reverse LBB into the ledge catches her.
Trying to ledge snap with Flip Jump? Reverse Nair clips it AND pushes her back out.

ZSS can edge guard the crap out of Cloud, but again, you cannot forget his potent ledge guarding. And even more fearsome is his ledge trapping ability. He can cover all of her escape options from the ledge with Dair, LCS, LCH, and Nair.

One thing I see a lot of people do when they look at their MU vs Cloud is think about how hard they can exploit his disadvantage state. I think that people fail to realize that in order to punish someone in disadvantage, you have to FIRST get them in disadvantage by beating them in neutral. That's why the only two characters I see beating Cloud are Sheik (better neutral and strong edge guards) and Bayonetta (weaker neutral, but insane punish game and edge guards). I would like to put Pikachu in that list, as his edge guards are ridiculous on Cloud, but he doesn't really beat Cloud in neutral. Despite his poor disadvantage state, Cloud goes even or beats most of the cast simply because of how strong he is in the neutral.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

ER again noob question but these acronyms are annoying me, what does LCH,LCS stand for? Ledge cancel something?

 

[irokex13]

ER again noob question but these acronyms are annoying me, what does LCH,LCS stand for? Ledge cancel something?

LCH = Limit Climhazzard.
LCS = Limit Cross Slash
LBB = Limit Blade Beam

 

[Nathan Richardson]

No wonder, I googled those and got nothing er but doesn't cloud need to get limit first before he can exploit those options? Also using acronyms not typically used on the boards...not cool man.

 

[Yikarur]

Those acronyms are pretty standard.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Sorry like I said I punched those into google search and nothing like that came up. Not even on the smash encyclopedia on these boards.

 

[Knife8193]

:

40/60:
45/55:
50/50:
55/45:
favorable, not sure to what extent:


This is what I think Cloud's relevant matchups are currently looking like :3

What do you think Greninja:Cloud is?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

N Nathan Richardson

Yeah Cloud has to get limit first but this is also one of his advantages. In limit he gains acces to his Limit specials and even better Mobility that makes Limit scary.
Cloud can just force a approach by pressing downb and then can punish(or just get away) you for trying to approach him after that he can just charge again until he gets the limit.

Also a smart Cloud will hold into limit until he can actually kill you with it, can get really big damage out of it or is forced to use it for recovery. So you can assume that Cloud will have acces to his charged limit for a great portion of the game.
His downb is practically no risk, high reward which is stupid.

 

[The-Technique]

That's just it. Cloud forces her to approach. ZSS can't really camp Cloud. She has to get in and do "something". I disagree with your breakdown of this MU because I don't see how ZSS can force Cloud to make the first move. Even if she gets close, how does she force Cloud to make a move first? While she has a strong punish for everything he does, he has an answer for everything she can do.

ZSS dashes in? SH nair, pivot f tilt/grab.
ZSS jumps in with an aerial? D tilt.
ZSS dash grabbed? Spot dodge Cross Slash/Finishing Touch.
ZSS used the Paralyzer to approach? Shield and then react to one of the three options above.

She has a strong punish game on him, that much is certainly true. But you cannot ignore his punish game on her. At early percents, up tilt/up air can build damage quickly. Having a frame 10 anti air that does 19% also helps build damage. Once she hits about 80-85%, she can die center stage to LCS. And any whiffed grab past 65% is instant death thanks to Finishing Touch. Cloud can devastate ZSS in disadvantage as well. If she is recovering and Cloud has limit, she has to carefully choose a recovery option.

Recover high with Flip Jump? Nair/Bair/LCS catches her.
Swing low with a tether? Drop zone LCS and B reverse LBB into the ledge catches her.
Trying to ledge snap with Flip Jump? Reverse Nair clips it AND pushes her back out.

ZSS can edge guard the crap out of Cloud, but again, you cannot forget his potent ledge guarding. And even more fearsome is his ledge trapping ability. He can cover all of her escape options from the ledge with Dair, LCS, LCH, and Nair.

One thing I see a lot of people do when they look at their MU vs Cloud is think about how hard they can exploit his disadvantage state. I think that people fail to realize that in order to punish someone in disadvantage, you have to FIRST get them in disadvantage by beating them in neutral. That's why the only two characters I see beating Cloud are Sheik (better neutral and strong edge guards) and Bayonetta (weaker neutral, but insane punish game and edge guards). I would like to put Pikachu in that list, as his edge guards are ridiculous on Cloud, but he doesn't really beat Cloud in neutral. Despite his poor disadvantage state, Cloud goes even or beats most of the cast simply because of how strong he is in the neutral.

You act as if being forced to approach is the worst thing in the world. It really isn't. Like someone else stated before, ZSS has the right tools such that charging limit actually puts Cloud in an unfavorable position. Cloud's generally earn wins against ZSS by going aggressive and gaining momentum, but the main reason why ZSS has a very large win rate over Cloud's is because many tend to play defensively and reactively, which ZSS absolutely loves. Game 1 in the below set is what happens when a Cloud only tries to "answer back" to ZSS in neutral.

Oh yeah and like someone mentioned before, there was that one set where Earth beat Tweek 2-0 with Pit. I'd also like to add on Nairo's Dark Pit beating Tweek 3-0. Pit's matchup against Cloud, kind of un-explored but probably an even one given their current record.

A problem a lot of the community has I think is that they only look at how good Cloud is and think he shuts down the entire cast, not taking into account how the cast actually interacts with Cloud in gameplay using their own tools. I mean **** just recently Zenyou got 2 stocked by a Duck Hunt while he was playing Cloud, most people would mark that as a 6:4 matchup in Cloud's favor just because its Duck Hunt and hes perceived as a low tier.

 

[sups48]

I think, at least in the Megaman Cloud matchup, that that has more to do with Kameme's skill as a player rather than the matchup, kind of how he's undefeated against Mr R. and Void across 3 sets even though people consider Sheik to be one of Megaman's worst matchups. That being said, Megaman probably does pretty well against Cloud in a vacuum. I would lean closer to even or slightly losing, but I can see why people would say that he wins.


Tangent:
Generally speaking, when people are talking about characters that they think beat Cloud, they all follow more or less the same pattern (Diddy Kong, Sheik, etc). They play the neutral primarily to push him offstage and ledgetrap or edgeguard him. The under-looked component here is pushing him offstage. There are a lot of characters that have really potent edgeguard games against Cloud that lose pretty badly to him because they can't consistently get him offstage (Villager, Luigi, etc).


In that regard, one obscure character that I'd argue does well (not beat) against Cloud is Pit. For otherwise being a rather average character, his disjoints give him a decent neutral game against Cloud and his Down Smash is an incredibly effective way to edgeguard him.

Case in point, Tweek and Earth's 5 minute set from EVO 2016

Scatt also m2k has lost to scatt multiple times and ive been saying cloud loses for a while now go back in my post history.

 

[irokex13]

You act as if being forced to approach is the worst thing in the world. It really isn't. Like someone else stated before, ZSS has the right tools such that charging limit actually puts Cloud in an unfavorable position. Cloud's generally earn wins against ZSS by going aggressive and gaining momentum, but the main reason why ZSS has a very large win rate over Cloud's is because many tend to play defensively and reactively, which ZSS absolutely loves. Game 1 in the below set is what happens when a Cloud only tries to "answer back" to ZSS in neutral.

Oh yeah and like someone mentioned before, there was that one set where Earth beat Tweek 2-0 with Pit. I'd also like to add on Nairo's Dark Pit beating Tweek 3-0. Pit's matchup against Cloud, kind of un-explored but probably an even one given their current record.

A problem a lot of the community has I think is that they only look at how good Cloud is and think he shuts down the entire cast, not taking into account how the cast actually interacts with Cloud in gameplay using their own tools. I mean **** just recently Zenyou got 2 stocked by a Duck Hunt while he was playing Cloud, most people would mark that as a 6:4 matchup in Cloud's favor just because its Duck Hunt and hes perceived as a low tier.

I don't think we were watching the same game 1 there. Stock 1, Komo drops his shield trying to punish ZSS nair and eats a jab. He then immediately DJs and gets stuffed out and dies. Stock 2 he dies because he tries to be aggressive, DJ Fairs back to the ledge, and then dies when Nairo calls it out. Throughout that entire set, you can see Komo do many questionable things like dropping his shield after ZSS nair/d smash. And when he got aggressive with fair/bair, it worked for a while, then Nairo adapted and just bair'd him. Komo was just making a lot of wrong decisions, both when he was playing defensively and offensively.

I never once said that playing passively is the only way that Cloud can beat ZSS. BUT he does have a response to anything she does. Does that mean he beats her? Not sure. I personally think the MU is even. But I can say with confidence that going aggressive against ZSS is the quickest way to die. Given her punisher playstyle, she's more than happy to let you do the work for her and give her openings.

Also, considering how this thread seems to believe that Cloud is barely top 10, despite his ridiculously high results (often claiming something along the line of "no solo Cloud wins major things", ignoring the fact that an overwhelming majority top players don't solo main characters), I don't think many people are actively thinking about how Cloud interacts with the cast.

That Zenyou match is an example of what's wrong with how the community views Cloud. Someone is down 2 games. Since they've lost with their mains, maybe they should just switch to Cloud. I mean, he's braindead, right? Everyone has a pocket Cloud, so this will clearly work out. And then it doesn't work out, because you actually have to know what you're doing to win with Cloud. AND THEN when a Cloud loses a set, everyone is all like, "SEE!!!??? X Character does well against Cloud. MU isn't 6:4 or whatever." even though it's just ONE set. You still see this with Charizard vs Cloud.

 

[Vyrnx]

She also has kinda bad OoS options. Frame 4 Boost Kick is scary and respectable, but Cloud's up air, bair, and fair are still able to effectively pressure her shield due to the pushback and range of these moves.

Cloud is also one of the few characters that can fall out her up B pretty often. And not like the "get pushed off the top and die earlier" fall out either. KuroganeHammer made a ZSS commentator card recently which staates that the 7th hit of her Boost Kick can weakly meteor Cloud. If she whiffs a Boost Kick and is too high up, ZSS can die to a revenge Up air/Finishing Touch.

I actually started writing a reply to this with, "ZSS' OOS is utterly top class," until I realized that I was getting those words straight from one of Shaya's posts a long time ago and just decided to find that post instead.

I don't know if it was mentioned here or in the CI, but ZSS' oos options are utterly top class, there's really nothing better in the game bar diddy holding a banana or sheik forward air (without customs).
8 Frame transcended dash attack, up-b, jab, up tilt and -grab- give her a crazy amount of diversity in her out of shield options, she does have aerial options too but not as universal (but if you're in the air and hit our shield that means death). "Did shaya just say zss grab!? what an idiot", well, ZSS grab defensively is perfectly fine, in fact in a lot of match ups it breaks the opponent's ability to do much to her and is a lot more useful than a standard grab would be.

This interaction is a little different in the Cloud MU where Cloud has possibly the most safety against shields of any character with his spacing. All I can say is that from playing this MU a lot, any flounder in spacing from the Cloud can get ZSS a hefty punish.

ZSS has such a mixup heavy neutral that it's tough even for Cloud to have a reliable game plan against her.
Cloud has a more than reasonable chance of catching a ZSS SH preemptively in the air with a rising aerial. If instead ZSS gets a SH at midrange, it really isn't a great scenario for Cloud. Zair can pin Cloud midrange if he is shielding, and falling in with a nair on his shield starts all of her cqc neutral mixups.

Dtilt can be a good mixup, but I doubt that the Cloud player can react in time to what the ZSS does during her SH. If the ZSS doesn't fall towards the Cloud and stays at about zair range during the SH, then a dtilt will get hit by falling nair given the hitbox's angle, or the ZSS can jump away and nothing happens. If the ZSS player does fall towards his shield and nairs, then it will be incredibly hard for the Cloud to time a dtilt out of shield drop. Then there are more mixups with fast falling or not fast falling the nair. ZSS' zair has about equal range with Cloud's dtilt. Any fade back from ZSS or any mixup at all will essentially put Cloud in 40 frames of punishable lag, which ZSS can do a lot with. I think the reason why this is rarely seen in top level Cloud play is because dtilt isn't a very good anti air specifically against ZSS. With ZSS' speed, mobility, and mixups, Cloud's dtilt isn't going to work. It isn't even something I can totally explain. If you watch a ZSS vs Cloud match you will more than likely see the ZSS start off with zair spacing and see that in that situation, the Cloud could not have used dtilt.

A ZSS can pretty easily bait out options with midrange SH. ZSS doing a midrange SH on a shielding opponent is somewhat akin to a Peach dairing a shield or Diddy glide tossing a banana into your shield, the opponent has already made a mistake getting put in that situation (it just isn't quite that extreme). In top ZSS vs Cloud matches, this situation actually happens pretty rarely because the Cloud players do a successful job preventing this. I would argue that other than obviously getting cheese kills, ZSS' approach game is one of the reasons she is so capable of comebacks. That's also why ZSS players tend to be so aggressive despite the character having the tools for defensiveness.

But of course the neutral game doesn't consist of this one scenario, I'm just arguing that in this specific scenario Cloud, like all characters, has a tough time and dtilt doesn't help much.

ZSS dashes in? SH nair, pivot f tilt/grab.
ZSS jumps in with an aerial? D tilt.
ZSS dash grabbed? Spot dodge Cross Slash/Finishing Touch.
ZSS used the Paralyzer to approach? Shield and then react to one of the three options above.

Not to make this personal in any way, but I really hate seeing neutral reduced to one dimensional terms like this. Any description of neutral that consists of, "If they do a, you do b. If they do c, you do d," is incorrect. Even if you list fifty scenarios like this, it will be fundamentally wrong because neutral can rarely be diminished to a one sided, reaction based neutral like this.

Why does this specifically not work in this MU? We're talking about the neutral game between the overall fastest character in the game and another of the fastest characters than can become arguably the overall fastest character in the game. Both characters have big disjoints (Cloud particularly) and amazing frame data. Both characters can be explosive, but in terms of this specific MU, ZSS is extremely explosive. Both characters can put each other in tough situations that both players are trying to avoid, Cloud can charge limit, and ZSS is known for her deep mixup game.

In short, there is way too much stuff going on in this MU (and almost every MU) for it to possibly be described like the quote. There are nuances like conditioning, reads, mixups, mobility in general, etc that are being left out. If ZSS can put you in a situation where you need to be defensive in one way or another, then that's where she can catch a defensive option and proceed with her crazy advantage state. Situations like this, especially if she gets a stock lead, which is very possible, are one of the reasons why she doesn't get shutout in neutral by any character.

I also don't think that ZSS' advantage state in this MU can be stressed enough. ZSS trashes Cloud off stage. It isn't a situation where ZSS will get a gimp every time of course because even Cloud has options off stage that can't always be reacted to, but it's a very bad situation for him and ZSS players always get a lot of kills on Cloud off stage. Juggling is pretty self explanatory. The positive for Cloud is that as soon as he gets out of disadvantage, it's easy for him to reestablish neutral. Cloud by virtue of being a great character can do stuff to ZSS in advantage, but the advantage:disadvantage disparity in this MU is significant. It's probably the most likely reason that all of the top Cloud players have so much trouble against the two ZSS players.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I have given it some though on why the vs seem so bad for Cloud, and my looking at matches it seems to factor into the overall mindset of the Cloud player. Maybe Cloud mains can shed some light on it The problem is that when facing Bayonetta, Cloud well..cant play like Cloud typically does versus her. Reason is being on how Bayo can so easily use Cloud best attributes and traits against him.

For example all the huge disjoints and lingering hitboxes on his airiels that can overwhelm so much of the roster, well as everyone is aware how easy it is for them to be baited into Witch time.

So now the solution maybe just to play defensively, charge up Limit and maximize its usage. However, even Cloud mighty Limit states can hurt him in this MU. Increased fall speed just means it easier for Bayo to combo him and makes trying SDI out harder for him. So solution would be to use it quickly.

Here the problem now, yea its fact that Bayo edgeguards and gimps Cloud hard if he does not have limit to recover. In some cases this can make the Cloud players "afrid" to use LCS or other moves even when they have the perfect opening to use it which further limits his options

I mean in Salen vs Tweek in Olympus it shows that Salem got in Tweek's head and even the commentators spotted his hesitation to use limit breaks and missed opportunites. It quickly went downhill for Tweek as seen clearly

http

So yea It look like Cloud needs to find a way to change or adapt their playstyle just to face Bayonetta. If Cloud can find some counterplay of his own for the MU, who knows the MU may get a little better for him over time

 

[SaltyKracka]

You act as if being forced to approach is the worst thing in the world. It really isn't.

It really is. Being forced to approach in a matchup is and consistently has been the single greatest determining factor in making sure that matchup is a losing matchup.

 

[DE235]

I just got done reading The Meta's interview with Salem and at the end he said he was training someone named Wounded Dragon and that the character he plays is interesting. Does anyone have an idea who that could be?

https://themeta.killscreen.com/salem-smash-4s-best-bayonetta-success-self-improvement/

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Because being forced to approach means you're playing their game, you're forced to do something instead of being given a choice so you're being played essentially.

 

[Megamang]

In order to jump cancel item toss forward>BAir with Mega, you need to drop shield, run forward, jump>throw. You can't do it directly from shield, so MB item toss OoS>BAir does not link nearly as well from that situation as it does in others.

Megaman's item toss is f11. This gets abused by Clouds who can space and time landing aerials outside of footstool OoS range.

Oh... either im RCTing it, or just pressing buttons needlessly...

But i would still argue that it is more threatening an OoS option than almost anyone has against Cloud. The bair isnt guaranteed, but it is free if he decides to dair and it stuffs fair hard if you come out before he swings, nair can swat you away but also doesnt help if you elect to just pellet after the throw.

If Cloud spends the game tearing your shield to pieces, youll still lose. But when Cloud elects to bair/ac nair your shield, you can let him, then return to your gameplan. This is way less scary than, say, a Mario nairing across your shield or a shiek Fairing it, or fox bair. I think this is because all of these chars can dart in and start something big on the ground, Cloud grabbing me or DAing through pellets is low threat level, comparatively.


Id like to ask m2k why he says its losing.

 

[Fenny]

I just got done reading The Meta's interview with Salem and at the end he said he was training someone named Wounded Dragon and that the character he plays is interesting. Does anyone have an idea who that could be?

https://themeta.killscreen.com/salem-smash-4s-best-bayonetta-success-self-improvement/

Greninja iirc

 

[FeelMeUp]

....?
How are ZSS's OoS options top class?
What am I missing?

 

[The-Technique]

It really is. Being forced to approach in a matchup is and consistently has been the single greatest determining factor in making sure that matchup is a losing matchup.

Yet the data we currently have shows the exact opposite, with a number of characters boasting positive records over Cloud in bracket, and moreover we should be seeing way more solo Clouds taking first place in tournaments than we currently do now. Either Cloud's gameplan isn't as oppressive and foolproof as everyone thinks it is or being made to approach isn't actually the absolute worst position to be in.

 

[Fenny]

....?
How are ZSS's OoS options top class?
What am I missing?

This lmao

Besides Boost Kick (which she's getting punished for if the opponent can block or dodge it in time), her grab sucks and she doesn't really get a lot off of her tilts, with Utilt only killing until really high percents.

 

[FeelMeUp]

When I think top class OoS games I think Sheik and Bayo.
4 frame jumpsquats.
Super fast moves that convert into combos or death.
Good shieldgrabs.
Good aerials out of shield drop(Sheik f/nair and Bayo WT/fair)
Good grab damage or followups.
etc.
ZSS just has Boost Kick. No rising aerials. Rising zair is too situational. Flip Jump out of shield does nothing.
Side B out of shield is underexplored.
Everything else takes forever to come out and isn't remotely viable when looking at true top class options.
Seriously. Dash attack out of shield? The move that leads into nothing and is a 14 frame commitment at the LEAST? How is this good?

 

[Vyrnx]

She has a frame 8 oos jab that has pretty good reach, frame 10 oos utilt that does 12% and puts them in a juggle situation, and up b oos as one of fastest oos options in the game doing 16% and killing very early.

Dash attack is a frame 14 oos with great burst range and her shield grab makes moves that are safe on other characters' shields shield grabbable (whether she would be better without the tether grab is well established, but it does have some benefits in this department).

And boost kick is like the second fastest oos move in the game and does 16% and kills really early? What do you mean by, "besides boost kick," or, "she has nothing other than boost kick," as if it's bad? Boost kick is one of the most optimal ways to punish any move. Being able to do it oos along with her other options gives her a really good oos game.

Even if you don't think it's top class, you can't call it, "bad," like the other guy did. That's just lol.

 

[Pancracio17]

from what i remember, isnt cloud mew2's seccond worst mu? unless you think mew2 only loses to diddy

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja iirc

A Bayonetta main training a Greninja main

Count me interested.

Interesting to hear that Salem considers Greninja the most interesting character though lol

 

[FeelMeUp]

Her OoS game isn't bad.
It just isn't great like Sheik, Bayo or Diddy.
I don't think I need to explain to you why looking at Boost Kick in a vacuum is laughable.

 

[Vyrnx]

Her OoS game isn't bad.
It just isn't great like Sheik, Bayo or Diddy.
I don't think I need to explain to you why looking at Boost Kick in a vacuum is laughable.

I would probably have to revise what I said and say that her OOS is just really good, but by definition not top class. It isn't as good as Sheik's, Diddy's, or Bayo's. Or Mario's or Doc's. Hers is just a very functional and potentially deadly OOS game that's better than a great majority of the cast's.

 

[Das Koopa]

Also, considering how this thread seems to believe that Cloud is barely top 10, despite his ridiculously high results (often claiming something along the line of "no solo Cloud wins major things", ignoring the fact that an overwhelming majority top players don't solo main characters), I don't think many people are actively thinking about how Cloud interacts with the cast.

I think this misrepresents what people say about Cloud. I've personally stated that Cloud is not top 3 because his results at the absolute peak are lackluster, among other things. While it's true that many top players don't solo-main, most major/supermajor winners post-1.1.5 are, in fact, solo mains.

Solo:
2GGT: Abadango Saga (ZeRo, )
2GGT: KTAR Saga (Pink Fresh, )
Shine 2016 (ZeRo, )
The Big House 6 (ZeRo, )
EVO 2016 (Ally, )
GOML 2016 (Ally, )
Umebura SAT (KEN, )
Super Smash Con 2016 (Nairo, )

Not solo:
CEO 2016 (ANTi, )
Pound 2016 (Abadango, )

...So it's a very apt criticism that solo Clouds don't win things, and that his best results* are from MKLeo and Komorikiri, two players who use multiple characters. The common argument I see is that Cloud is too high on the tier list because solo Clouds have very shaky top level records that are not indicative of the #2 rank he has on the current tier list. I'm inclined to agree.


*ANTi won CEO but in context a 3-0 on Zinoto just isn't as impressive as Komo's recent sets with Cloud versus players like VoiD and Nairo.

 

[Deleted member]

Only any somewhat relevant thing I can name a solo Cloud winning was M2K taking 1st at Come to Papa 2, but that's only a decently-sized Florida regional.

My view on how Cloud will progress in this meta is shaky. I feel like pose as large threats for him and will continue to do so, they capitalize on his weaknesses better than any other character. If Clouds took advantage of how busted things like Limit canceling, his dashdance and his movement in Limit Break is in general, then that'd be dope.

 

[Ilikebugs]

Ignore this post

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well in a meta where and are common and have seen continued success I can maybe see how solo could have difficulties because as mentioned in a previous post. They are the best at exploiting his weaknesses, and can even use his best traits against him

Is is just me or are thing flipping around now and Cloud is seeing more success as a pocket than as a solo main

 

[irokex13]

Lots of words lol

I think the first thing to start with is that most people tend to assume that when Cloud is playing defensively, he needs to either be charging Limit or shielding. Let's take into account another option of Cloud standing still. Now all of his options are available to him.

ZSS Zair is a great poking tool and hit confirm for grab/Boost Kick at high %. But what if that move couldn't hit Cloud? What if Cloud's crouching animation was too short to get hit by her Zair? That'd be pretty silly, right?

So just in that entirely fictional, hypothetical situation, ZSS would not be able to carelessly Zair in his space, leaving her SH options to nair, up air, and tomahawk grab (DJ away just resets neutral). Now, let's imagine that Cloud has an INTANGIBLE frame 7 burst option that also lowers his profile. That'd make for a pretty decent anti-air, right??? A move like that would almost be purposely designed to counter SH approaches or something.

Sarcastic responses aside, it is important for most of this community to know that flowchart options are not bad. Knowing what you can do in response to seeing your opponent do something is huge and makes reacting to/punishing said options much easier. If you already know what you can do/are going to do, you spend more time focusing on your opponent rather than thinking about your options.

I think the best example of this is . He has tons of fancy combos and footstool options, but he also has very simple buttons that just beat or punish certain options.

Opponent likes to approach with SH aerials? Heavy up tilt anti airs them clean.
Opponent carelessly touched your shield? Frame 5 d smash that does 17%!
Opponent too shield happy? Heavy F tilt destroys shields.

Yes, there is more to those interactions that just that. There are mind games that can be employed. But when a character has a "DO NOT DO X/PUNISH X WITH Y" button, the opponent can't do much but respect that option. You might be able to play around it, but you're playing a dangerous game.


Also, Das Koopa , you notice anything else about that list? That you know, only 5 players are there? And no other character gets near as much flack as Cloud does for not being on that list. also fails to make that list, but we all know just how good she is. I fail to see how being a secondary/co-main lessens the worth of their victories.