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I can't say I agree all that much. There's no reason to not abuse D3's horrible data and slow frontal hitboxes(being wary of Dsmash, of course...) up close. Needles aren't very good vs him because of how long it takes for him to be sent into tumble and how much more of a reward you get for sticking in his face
Flare blade comes out on frame 23 and is active until frame 26. You can powershield it on reaction and punish it with anything that comes out before frame 21/20/19 (usually 21 but you could powershield it out of a dash). If you were actually talking about Blazer, you dont have to wait for him to land to actually punish him
As far as I can tell, it's only those two plus Pacman's Fair (FAF 26, Autocancel 43, 42 frame SH, 16 frames of landing lag) and Ryu's Nair (FAF 28, Autocancel 34, 31 frame SH, 6 frames of landing lag).
Is this legit? I need to try that out sometime.
Palutena's UAir as well, though only from a full hop.
Captain Falcon does well versus all the characters you mentioned, Yoshi being the worst of them. Not saying he destroys those or does as well as Cloud does against them but he definitely doesn't really struggle with them either.
Marth does I guess, M2 too if you still consider him a high tier *cough*hestop5*cough*
It seems more like you can cancel the landing lag with a special for whatever reason, since Side B does the ground animation.
I think the key difference would be sonic. Cloud does better in that MU right? Cap may juggle sonic really well, but that disadvantage, combined with dealing with spindash with no projectile must be rough. Spindash must be used well of course, he can pivot grab bad attempts but its more like a reactive SH approach punish with it's invincible startup. I don't know the MU that well, above are my assumptions based on basic character stuffs. Its definitely not a fun time for captain in disadvantage though. Being combo food just means you'll probably be behind at some point vs sonic, then you have to get it back and if you get hit again... yea. Sonic stuff, but cap's weight and aerials arent helping much after spindash combos.
It does hit below the ledge, I'm pretty sure it stage spikes too (my memory could be failing me though).
Luigis dsmash can hit people on the ledge but like DunnoBro said you have to space them really well. It's really annoying tbh. The front hit also stagespikes them which isn't too great since they can tech that. Downward angled fsmash can hit too but again, it needs good spacing. :/ Sometimes (grounded) downB can hit as well, but it depends on the character. "Semispiking" them a little bit but the hitstun shouldn't be long enough for them to have trouble coming back (and it'll only do a few %). Dtaunt exists, but is too slow unless they have to regrab and you have the time and get the timing right. Will almost never happen but it's there I guess.
1. Me and komo are like 5-1 my favor. I have NO idea where that example came from, that's not even close to positive(and I just beat him right before big house too).
Awesome for Elegant and everything but...
Marth does decently well against Rosalina and Mewtwo, does pretty well against Cloud himself, as well as Mario.
heard we was talkin ****
The difference is, counter has counterplay, PKT stalling is viable and very likely to get you killed / as well.
Nope, it's a kill confirm on most (if not all) characters and it's a good way to catch regular ledge get up, get up attacks and rolls with the right read. It's actually a pretty old confirm and the fact that nobody has seen it be used at high level play is actually disappointing, especially when I see fellow Luigi mains go on about how we have trouble killing :/. In the video Elegant put on Twitter, it showed that it could kill Sheik around 80ish% and I don't think that was with rage. It's a really good ledge punish if you can read it. Very easy to do on characters like superheavies once you force them to the ledge.
You don't necessarily need a projectile to deal with Sonic. Having a disjoint is just as useful (Cloud just happens to have both as well as Limit camping). Spindash doesn't have a very big hit box, and Sonic's hurt box is larger. So once Sonic gets past the mini jump at the start up of Spindash's movement and the invincibility is gone, if Sonic stays on the ground Falcon can just hold jab. If Sonic jumps you can either shield expecting an attack or hit him first. Plus, Spindash combos don't tend to have very many hits to them, they just do a good amount of damage, so Falcon getting comboed isn't as much of a problem unless you're getting uair > spring jump uair-ed. Sonic's not a very great edge guarder either. He tends to be rather linear with his edge guards so they're not the hardest things to avoid, you should pretty much always be expecting spring or an attack from Sonic in some fashion.
Of course, all that what you say is 100% true. I was just making reference to the fact that, if you Counter PKT2, Ness will usually die; it's no where near as good as Gravitational Pull, I know.
Forget mobility, I've played matches riding entirely on garbage Sonic players just spin dashing into jabs
FOW still attends locals in Vegas, and Shaky just now attends locals as well. I assume they're both taking breaks.
On the Kirby point, I really don't think Kirby gets shut down by Marth. Marth's landings are too poor for that. I also want to note when the three big Marth mains made MU charts most recently (Mr. E, Pugwest, and... sadly, I forgot who else), they listed the MU as slight advantage. From my experience in the MU, I agree with that.
Shut down in the fact that Marth's (disjointed) range gives Kirby a lot of trouble, walling him out basically. If Kirby gets in, yes, he can do some damage, but Marth can, and will keep Kirby at bay with his range, and there's not a whole lot he can do to get around that safely. Marth makes a poor choice and Kirby gets in? That's when things can get a little more annoying.
DunnoBro
, do you know who is fairly good against a lot of those characters (barring Sonic and Villager/possibly Yoshi and Ness)?Kirby getting Shield Breaker is a nice buff in this matchup, though it's nothing to push it over the edge. Gives him better offensive pressure (which he already has a lot of) and a mobility/landing mixup.
The landing mixup is one I didn't think of, so that is useful I suppose.
Are people calling it hugely in Clouds favor again or something? What did I miss?
That's fair.
MK and Villy?
I'm really hesitant to ask this since it tends to lead to a **** show but it is in the green topics and it has been on my mind. With Sheik and Bayo doing well in theory and in practice (though Das Koopa's post at the top of this page shows Sheik has been dropping a bit, if only due to lack of attendance) with at least a few posters calling one or the other the best character in the game, I ask, does anyone think or feel either character needs another nerf? Not really caring for specific details if yes but I'm wondering what the general opinion is. Or heck, maybe for a lot of people it's not a 'yes, I want a nerf' but a 'I don't WANT one persay but I'd appreciate or wouldn't mind if one came'
Even if either character ends up having no bad mus, that's not doom and gloom for anything as Melee has shown with Fox and Falco. And them completely invalidating characters like
I'm personally on the fence. I don't know enough about Bayo to give an opinion and with Sheik...I just honestly hate needles...like, a lot. **** needles.
Because every character in need of nerfs in the history of smash won majors, right?
v is pretty volatile once the latter character gets Monado Arts, but I'd say Shulk wins the matchup otherwise. Just chiming in with my own thoughts. They're a great team in doubles because of this as well, it's a shame it's so little-seen.
