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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Das Koopa

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September Results Write-up, aka, the first quarter of Phase 3. By Das Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero_Destroyer.




From August, the changes were...

Bayonetta +2.7%
Mewtwo +2.4%
Other +1.3%
Fox +1.2%
Ryu +0.5%
Cloud +0.4%
Ness +0.4%
Captain Falcon +0.4%
Mega Man +0.3%
Greninja +0.2%
Marth +0.2%

R.O.B = 1.9%
Meta Knight -0.3%
Mario -0.4%
Sonic -0.5%
Zero Suit Samus -0.8%
Rosalina & Luma -2.0%
Diddy Kong -2.5%
Sheik -3.0%


OFF: Toon Link, Villager, Peach
NEW: Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Corrin

The only characters suffering from a loss in this iteration were high-tiers, sans Meta Knight. Sheik and Diddy suffered from staggering losses, with Sheik plummeting from trading 1st and 2nd to a far-back 7th. While Mr. R's lack of recent attendance undoubtedly has an effect on this, his share of 16% applied to this wouldn't give Sheik a significant enough boost to put her back. Thus, it's likely that Sheik is simply performing worse on a regional level, Sheik mains are not in attendance, or the tournament pile this month used a lot of regions where Sheik isn't prominent. VoiD's poor placement at Abadango Saga didn't help this.

Rosalina & Luma also suffered from significant losses, however, Dabuz accounts for a massive 38% of Rosalina's results, clocking in over 100 of her 269 points in the Summer of Smash/1.1.6 iteration. This is likely why she's ranked in the same position as Donkey Kong and Falcon.

Bayonetta saw a significant rise over the month, almost assuredly due to the continued efforts of Salem, with small pushes being from a re-invigorated Tyroy and 9B, alongside a good showing from Pink Fresh at Glitch 2. This is Bayonetta's best month in a while.

Cloud takes first in the weighted system for the (first?) time, at least, in a while, and with a solid 15-20 point lead on the closest competitors. Komorikiri's efforts in the U.S. alongside an increased density of Cloud users seen in the results chart are likely responsible. It's hard to say if this will persistent, but I detailed extensively how Cloud is likely overscored proportionate to the character's accomplishments. Tweek's return to form and Komorkiri proving himself at MSM and 2GGT:AS are two openings for Cloud to make himself a meta-relevant force at the upcoming Supermajor, The Big House 6.

Probably the most surprising gain, however...



Fox pretty much blew up, with a narrow second place finish on the September list. Continued performances from Fox players worldwide helped propel him into this position, including an incredibly Loser's Bracket run by Larry Lurr at 2GGT, SH and Shogun placing back-to-back at the most recent Sumabato in 3rd and 4th place respectively, and so on. His strong regional presence capped by a second place at a major has helped further solidify Fox as one of the most relevant and dangerous characters in the current meta game.



The Upper Category chart continues to be a bit of a fun one. These are the total tournaments used:

C2, 1-8:
2GGT FOW Saga
OutFoxx’d
The Arena 2016
Midwest Mayhem
Super Smash on the Hill
Sumabato 9
Umebara 22
Midwest Mayhem 2
EGLX
2GGT Fresh Saga
NEW FISH
Battle Arena Melbourne 8
LEVEL UP EXPO
Umebura 23
Momocon 2016
Sumabato 10
2GGT Mexico
Midwest Mayhem 3
KTAR XVIII
Smash n’ Splash 2
Sumabato 11
Apex 2016
Low Tier City 4
WTFox 2
Midwest Mayhem 4
PPT Summer
Umebara 24
Sumabato for the Big House
Smash Factor 5
Clutch City Clash
Rebirth VIII
Endgame
Sumabato 12
Collision XIV
Umebura 25
Syndicate 2016
Mega Smash Mondays 67
Sumabato 13
Smash Conference LXVII
Glitch 2

C3, 3-10:
Pound 2016
Get on my Level 2016
2GGT KTAR Saga
Umebura SAT
Shine 2016
2GGT: Abadango Saga

C4, 7-14:
CEO 2016
EVO 2016
Super Smash Con

This demonstrates multiple things.

1: Marth has really stepped it up.


While most people are perfectly aware of how much better Marth has fared as of late, Mr. E's win at Glitch 2 is probably the best solo-Marth run ever and places Mr. E as the definitive best solo-Marth and possibly the best Marth as a whole. This is after months of dedication, and the scores are really starting to reflect this, with a very respectable 13th, ahead of a declining character (Toon Link) with his next biggest threat being more inconsistent top-level threats like Peach or Donkey Kong. With this, he's effectively crossed the threshold and should probably be referred to as a high-tier, assuming we separate "Top" from "High".

2: Mega Man does better when regionals are excluded.



At an impressive 11th, Mega Man's accomplishments are laid bare for all to see. Kamemushi's continued good performance (a 2nd, 4th, and 1st at significant tournies) continue to demonstrate the character's capacity and that certain oft-dreaded matchups like Sheik aren't stopping him or his rise at high-level tournaments, with both a pre-TBH6 local and TBH6 itself being potential places for Kamemushi to further demonstrate how far the character can go.

3: Ryu doesn't do so well at the top level.



While you have occasional testaments of Ryu's relevancy like Trela's run at EVO, you might find that Ryu's good scores on top 16 weighted lists are likely due to strong regional performances more than a national-level prevalence. I've touched on this before, but it really sticks out like a sore thumb that Ryu plummets 8-9 places when only high-skill pool tournaments are up for consideration. Venom, DarkShad, and other regional mains are helping this character's meta chug along, but Trela's rather unfortunate (read: disastrous, sans EVO) Summer performance caused a lot of questioning towards Ryu's impressive Top 16 weighted scores in spite of a bad run by the best national Ryu.

4: Olimar is apparently good I guess.



With Olimar's Unweighted Scores demonstrating a strong capacity for the character, the Upper Category list does much the same... albeit, with the asterisk of a lot of the score coming from Dabuz using the character as a secondary. This doesn't account for Shuton's dominance in his own region, although it does include Shuton's 9th at Umebura SAT.

Top 8 Weighted and the long-term tracking from March 15th to now:



Not much to say on either of these. The former has a lot of correlation with the Top 16 list with a few small move-arounds. Mr. Game & Watch having 32 points in the Top 16 iteration is something to note, with mild discrepancies allowing him to edge his way in to the tail end of the Top 8 weighted. Thank Extra for this, and the increasing number of decent regional G&W performances. Notably, he also had a significant gain in the long-term Tracking, now clocking in at 79 points over a near-7 month period.

Even more profound? Both Link and G&W, with a score of 79, beat out Pit's 78. Pit is in a very unique situation where very few incidental mains even exist. As in, characters like Link or G&W will randomly get bumps from one-off 13ths or 9ths, and this can add up, while Pit doesn't even have much of that. His life sorta sucks.

Oh, and you may notice something... different.

THE DEATH OF THE UNWEIGHTED SYSTEM

The primary reason for me dropping the unweighted charts is due to it being an additional time investment for no significant additional information, as anything statistically relevant in this regard is usually apparent without examinung number. High incidence of pocket Clouds, or characters like Olimar being boosted heavily due to Dabuz using him as a secondary, etc. I have to manually write in all of the numbers, and this takes a lot of time (especially with a massive number of tournaments during September) so even when a discrepancy exists it'd probably be easier to just investigate the raw data in the database.

BOTTOM LINE

September is a transitional month between months of results a new meta blast. We'll see how things level out in a month, as Phase 3 runs until the end of the year (where you'll get an end-of-year retrospective <3) but for now you should come to expect a lot of weird anomalies and oddities on a short time scale, like certain characters having abnormally low/high scores. This likely has to do with attendance of certain mains, which typically levels itself out unless certain characters simply see little-to-no usage.


Full results for every format:

Cloud: 167
Fox: 145.5
Diddy Kong: 143.5
Bayonetta: 140
Sonic: 127
Mario: 110
Sheik: 108.5
Mewtwo: 103
Ryu: 73
Zero Suit Samus: 72
Captain Falcon: 59.5
Rosalina & Luma: 59
Donkey Kong: 58.5
Marth: 56.5
Ness: 52.5
Greninja: 50
Mega Man: 45
Meta Knight: 44.5
R.O.B: 43.5
Yoshi: 36
Corrin: 35
Lucas: 32.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 32
Luigi: 31.5
Bowser: 31.5
Peach: 29
Pikachu: 28
Olimar: 28
Villager: 26.5
Toon Link: 25
Wario: 25
Robin: 23.5
Little Mac: 23.5
Link: 16
Lucina: 16
Lucario: 15.5
Charizard: 15.5
Palutena: 15
Pac-Man: 15
Samus: 14
Shulk: 13
Wii Fit Trainer: 13
Pit: 10
Bowser Jr.: 10
Duck Hunt: 8
King Dedede: 7
Ike: 6
Roy: 6
Kirby: 4.5
Mii Brawler: 3
Falco: 3
Dr. Mario: 1
Jigglypuff: 1
Dark Pit: 1
Mii Gunner: 1

Cloud: 87.5
Diddy Kong: 75.5
Bayonetta: 75.5
Sonic: 64.5
Fox: 63.5
Mewtwo: 60.5
Sheik: 45
Mario: 44.5
Zero Suit Samus: 42
Ryu: 33
Rosalina & Luma: 29
Captain Falcon: 26.5
Greninja: 26
Donkey Kong: 24.5
Marth: 24
Mega Man: 22
Ness: 21
R.O.B: 19
Meta Knight: 19
Mr. Game & Watch: 16
Pikachu: 15.5
Luigi: 14.5
Toon Link: 13
Yoshi: 13
Bowser: 12.5
Wario: 12
Olimar: 12
Villager: 11
Lucas: 10.5
Robin: 10.5
Corrin: 10.5
Lucina: 9
Peach: 8
Palutena: 7
Charizard: 7
Wii Fit Trainer: 6
Little Mac: 5.5
Pac-Man: 5
Link: 5
Shulk: 5
Ike: 4
Lucario: 3.5
Samus: 3
Roy: 3
Kirby: 2.5
Duck Hunt: 2
King Dedede: 2
Samus: 1
Mii Brawler: 1

Sheik: 316
Diddy Kong: 311.5
Cloud: 243.5
Mario: 210.5
Sonic: 203
Fox: 199.5
Zero Suit Samus: 194
Rosalina & Luma: 166
Bayonetta: 159
Mewtwo: 136
Mega Man: 103
Meta Knight: 90.5
Marth: 88.5
Toon Link: 88
Donkey Kong: 68
Peach: 59.5
Captain Falcon: 59
Olimar: 59
Ryu: 57
Ness: 47.5
Corrin: 47.5
Villager: 46.5
Luigi: 44.5
Pit: 42
Greninja: 42
Pikachu: 40.5
Lucario: 39.5
R.O.B: 31.5
Lucas: 30
Yoshi: 21.5
Pac-Man: 20
Bowser: 19.5
Ike: 18
Wario: 18
Wii Fit Trainer: 18
Link: 17
Mr. Game & Watch: 17
Duck Hunt: 17
Palutena: 17
Little Mac: 16
Lucina: 13
Robin: 12
Samus: 9
Kirby: 6.5
Roy: 6
Bowser Jr.: 6
Shulk: 3
Charizard: 3
King Dedede: 1

Diddy Kong: 938.5
Sheik: 814.5
Cloud: 742
Bayonetta: 622.5
Fox: 611
Sonic: 610.5
Mario: 551
Zero Suit Samus: 448.5
Rosalina & Luma: 427
Mewtwo: 335.5
Ryu: 299
Captain Falcon: 273.5
Ness: 269
Meta Knight: 257.5
R.O.B: 247
Marth: 236
Toon Link: 229.5
Mega Man: 214.5
Peach: 208
Greninja: 204.5
Donkey Kong: 197.5
Corrin: 188
Luigi: 183
Yoshi: 182
Pikachu: 168
Villager: 158
Olimar: 154
Lucario: 134
Bowser: 128.5
Robin: 116
Lucas: 110.5
Ike: 98.5
Wario: 92
Little Mac: 86.5
Link: 79
Mr. Game & Watch: 79
Pit: 78
Palutena: 72
Pac-Man: 70.5
Samus: 61
Duck Hunt: 55
Wii Fit Trainer: 47
King Dedede: 38.5
Shulk: 38
Kirby: 34
Roy: 32.5
Bowser Jr.: 32
Charizard: 30
Lucina: 29
Falco: 18.5
Mii Brawler: 18
Zelda: 14
Jigglypuff: 14
Ganondorf: 11.5
Dr. Mario: 11
Mii Gunner: 5
Dark Pit: 5
Mii Swordfighter: 0



Methodology: (This will updated next month)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m_3mnTm2CUhlxzi-vlN29OwEbQlUcJN6V1em2cX8aAw/edit

Results Thread:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Previous Month:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...tive-impressions.440784/page-38#post-21431798

I will be updating the Results thread soon™. First week of October was lax of data, so I took the time I'd spend filling in scores to make this stuff, but I've been bad about updating the results database itself.
 

DunnoBro

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Actually, it's more like 8 extra frames of vulnerability to DJ airdodge out of hitstun. (You can airdodge 5 frames before you can jump) So it definitely works. There's a few factors why uthrow kill confirms on m2.

1: His size
2: His slow DJ sealing off this escape option which pretty much any other character can utilize. (the main reason it works though others have slow DJs too)
3: His light weight leaving sheik in less endlag (kind of significantly)

However, it isn't a 50/50 all through the 90-140 range. At many points you need to guess the direction of their airdodge for vanish/uair/bf.
 

meticulousboy

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I still need to see those mid tiers and their matchups. Let me post one that I got off of Discord. Samsora and Slayerz made it.
downloadfile.png

What are your thoughts?
 
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Das Koopa

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Wii U Crews at TBH6 have been announced. 4 teams:

Midwest
Ally :4mario:
Zinoto :4diddy:
Rayquaza07 :rosalina:
Ryuga :4corrinf:
Ned :4cloud2:

West Coast
ZeRo :4diddy:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
VoiD :4sheik:
Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
NAKAT :4ness::4fox:

East Coast
Nairo :4zss:
Dabuz :rosalina:
Salem :4bayonetta:
ANTi :4mario::substitute:
Marss :4zss:

Japan
Abadango :4mewtwo:
Kamemushi :4megaman:
Komorikiri :4sonic::4cloud2:
Kie :4peach:
Shogun :4fox:

i feel like East Coast will absolutely destroy everybody
 

Wintermelon43

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Wii U Crews at TBH6 have been announced. 4 teams:

Midwest
Ally :4mario:
Zinoto :4diddy:
Rayquaza07 :rosalina:
Ryuga :4corrinf:
Ned :4cloud2:

West Coast
ZeRo :4diddy:
Larry Lurr :4fox:
VoiD :4sheik:
Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
NAKAT :4ness::4fox:

East Coast
Nairo :4zss:
Dabuz :rosalina:
Salem :4bayonetta:
ANTi :4mario::substitute:
Marss :4zss:

Japan
Abadango :4mewtwo:
Kamemushi :4megaman:
Komorikiri :4sonic::4cloud2:
Kie :4peach:
Shogun :4fox:

i feel like East Coast will absolutely destroy everybody
.....Isn't ZeRo east coast now? Why is he in west coast?
Please tell me what you agree and disagree with! :)
Um................
 

TDK

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Please tell me what you agree and disagree with! :)
Lucina is about 30 characters too low, Kirby isn't bottom 2, Cloud isn't top 5, ZSS isn't better than Rosalina, Ryu is not better than MK, Fox, and Marth, Falcon isn't better than Marth, Falco is about 25 places too high, no way in **** sonic is that low, Pac Man is way too high, Villager is near Toon Link and Mega Man, Lucario and the Pits are absurdly low, Palutena and Wii Fit aren't bottom 5, Mii Gunner is the best Mii, and Bowser should be near DK.

That's all I can think of. Let's move on.
 

Swamp Sensei

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That moment when Charizard has more results than the Pits. :secretkpop:


Seriously, why are the Pits so underused? They're better than a lot of the cast and they get... almost nothing. I know the Pits aren't considered boring to play or annoying to fight against so... why?

They should have at least three times the results they do now.
 

Wintermelon43

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Lucina is about 30 characters too low, Kirby isn't bottom 2, Cloud isn't top 5, ZSS isn't better than Rosalina, Ryu is not better than MK, Fox, and Marth, Falcon isn't better than Marth, Falco is about 25 places too high, no way in **** sonic is that low, Pac Man is way too high, Villager is near Toon Link and Mega Man, Lucario and the Pits are absurdly low, Palutena and Wii Fit aren't bottom 5, Mii Gunner is the best Mii, and Bowser should be near DK.

That's all I can think of. Let's move on.
Not to mention Marth is way too high as well.

Also Pac-Man isn't "way" too high, just a little bit too high, but whatever.
why is nakat west coast?
LOL wow 2/5 of the people in the west coast crew are east coast.
 
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Das Koopa

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ZeRo has stated before he won't side with East Coast (idk why lol) and NAKAT moved to California

The best place to start with examining crews is the basic concept of defining each by their weakest players;

West Coast: NAKAT
East Coast: Either Salem or Marss
Japan: Shogun
Midwest: Rayquaza, Ned, or Ryuga

East Coast has the advantage of their worst players both being arguable top 15 contenders compared to the Midwest's weakest links being any of 3 30-40 ranked players. More than half their team would likely get demolished by more than half of every other team, and neither Ally or Zinoto are distantly better enough to make up for it. Clear 4th place.

West Coast's weakest is really weak but they make up for it with Rich (who's been on a roll as of late) combined with the triad of Larry, VoiD, and ZeRo. Can't really go wrong here, but I'll address how they could falter in a bit.

Japan is loaded with 3 fantastic players and 2 decent players probably stuck in the same boat as the midwest.

East Coast is clearly the most stacked. Dabuz, Nairo, and ANTi are really strong as a trio, but then you back-cap that with Salem (who's running a massive hype train right now) and Marss, who's slight decline still doesn't put him out of the top 20 range.

Japan is the wildcard, Midwest has no real shot, West Coast is the underdog, and East Coast is the favorite. Japan could theoretically dismantle West Coast pretty efficiently. I'm confident that any of Japan's crew could probably beat NAKAT, Kameme counters ZeRo, Komorikiri or Abadango would likely been a good roll vs. VoiD, but Larry could end up being a problem. I feel like most of Japan's players would fold under his pressure, and he has the potential to take a lot of stocks if he goes on a roll.

Thing is, though, I just can't see the other teams besting East Coast. What do you do against that team composition? It has Japan on lockdown and probably wins over West Coast unless they do something remarkably stupid like sending Nairo after ZeRo. Midwest has really got nothing here. Ryuga could theoretically check ANTi in terms of Matchups and both Ally and Zinoto can handle Dabuz, but both probably lose badly to Nairo.

Seems like East Coast > West Coast > Japan > Midwest.
 

DunnoBro

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I don't think nakat is "really weak"

At worst, he's a CP for marss/nairo, zinoto, and kie/shogun. Also sad to see no md/va in east coast, but Salem is just a clear tier above PF at this point.
 
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ShadowGuy1

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Not to mention Marth is way too high as well.

Also Pac-Man isn't "way" too high, just a little bit too high, but whatever.

LOL wow 2/5 of the people in the west coast crew are east coast.
I wouldn't say way too high. Marth is getting some great results and I think deserves top 15, but is for sure a top 20. Also, how is PAC-man way too high? Just using that list as a reference, PAC-man is for sure not in the same tier as those listed minus G&W. I would also like to ask how marth is way too high. I think that spot is a tad to high but certainty not outlandish.
 

FeelMeUp

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I would not be surprised if NAKAT took out Ally, Komo, or Kame. His style is amazing for the Fox ditto and he could sweep most of Midwest.
Don't underrate the guy.
 

Emblem Lord

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Seeing you guys call my homie NAKAT weak kinda....irks me.

Once again I am reminded of the youth of this community.
 

NegaNixx

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No Team Canada. RIP. Go Ally.

East Coast is monstrous, but having the two best Diddy's on different teams serves as a nice check so things shouldn't get out of control. As long as VoiD doesn't face Nairo the West Coast has a solid chance.
 

L9999

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That moment when Charizard has more results than the Pits. :secretkpop:


Seriously, why are the Pits so underused? They're better than a lot of the cast and they get... almost nothing. I know the Pits aren't considered boring to play or annoying to fight against so... why?

They should have at least three times the results they do now.
The biggest mystery of the game right there. IMO:
1) He doesn't suck ass to appeal to low tier heros or masochists, but he is not good enough for elitists.
2) In a game full of swordfighters he gets lost in the way.
3) He isn't the most popular character out there.
4) His gameplan isn't very appealing. He is neutral, neutral, and more neutral. Nothing flashy or satisfying for putting effort in like :4diddy::4sheik:. This point is the reason I dropped :4darkpit:. He bored me. I couldn't pull out salt inducing gimmicks like :4ness:, and for a hated clone I could pick up :4lucina: who has jank like rage Foward Smash. Hell, 1111 :4miisword: was more appealing to me because he 1) he is disliked and 2) he sucks ass and I like to disrespect people at friendlies with disliked characters.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Nakat and weak dont belong in the same sentence. His playstyle with Fox in particular is amazing, he knows when to sit back and fire lasers and exactly when to go in
 

Megamang

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Void played Nairo on stream (local games tho) in a first to 50.

Void won, then Nairo quipped

"This is why i play you in Bo5"

---

NAKAT is far from weak... i havent seen much of him at all tbh. Unless he's been labbing, playing in a sky house type situation, or i just missed him (not unlikely) he is... a lower ended outlier on that list? I mean, definitely not a weak player to most of us posters lol, but if we were, say, betting on crews...


Pits tilts are decidedly mediocre. That makes him not fun for me, since instead of precise poking he goes in and makes you guess. He just doesnt have much that makes him stand out, be it traits, moves, pokees, projectiles...

Not even the best multi jumper :/


Edit: ill look for the vod. Brb

http://www.twitch.tv/nairomk/v/92543387?sr=a
 
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FeelMeUp

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Him being the closest person to beating Ally at EVO and going to last stock last hit vs Kame in a moneymatch the day before hopefully hasn't left people's minds.
Neeeever sleep on NAKAT. In my opinion, optimal Fox would be a mix between the playstyles of him, Sodrek, and Dugan.

Edit: VOD for first to 50?
 
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Kofu

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The biggest mystery of the game right there. IMO:
1) He doesn't suck *** to appeal to low tier heros or masochists, but he is not good enough for elitists.
2) In a game full of swordfighters he gets lost in the way.
3) He isn't the most popular character out there.
4) His gameplan isn't very appealing. He is neutral, neutral, and more neutral. Nothing flashy or satisfying for putting effort in like :4diddy::4sheik:. This point is the reason I dropped :4darkpit:. He bored me. I couldn't pull out salt inducing gimmicks like :4ness:, and for a hated clone I could pick up :4lucina: who has jank like rage Foward Smash. Hell, 1111 :4miisword: was more appealing to me because he 1) he is disliked and 2) he sucks *** and I like to disrespect people at friendlies with disliked characters.
Rage Electroshock at the edge can be pretty dang salt-inducing but otherwise I agree. They're solid but don't have anything to really help them stand out except for Pit's aimable arrows.
 

Das Koopa

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I'm calling NAKAT weak in a relative sense and his placements (and bracket details, more importantly) back the claim up pretty well outside of a recently decent performance at MSM in SoCal.

Please tell me what you agree and disagree with! :)
falco get down from there you're gonna hurt yourself
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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Uthrow 50/50 works from like 90 to 140 on M2. Maybe even longer. You guys are heavily underrating how Sheik plays once you give her a consistent grab kill option back.
Vanish catches airdodge, Uair catches jump. It's quite simple.
After some testing and discussion with the Sheik discord the 50/50 works on:
Bayonetta, Ness, Lucas, Falcon, and Ike.
Maybe someone else I'm forgetting.
Having a 50/50 means that M2 no longer lives until ridiculous rage %s and kills me at 85 with Uthrow. MU is probably dead even, but over time it'll most likely get closer to Sheik's favour.
Damn man, just when it was looking good for Falcon with the Pikachu match up improving lately, Sheik swoops in and continues to get better and better and slams my boi Falcon back into the ground. Definitely isn't going to be killing until slightly later percents though (I imagine the window lasts longer than 90-140% like with Mewtwo, seeing as Falcon doesn't usually die to uair at 120%) so I can see rage shenanigans (lol @ rage raptor boost, falcon kick, and bair) still being a saving grace for Falcon if he's getting bopped pretty hard.

I've been thinking for a while now that Sheik would likely end up as Falcon's worst match up again though. Pikachu is just too easy to abuse with rage.
 

FeelMeUp

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Sheik Falcon is a trash matchup and as long as she and Bayo are relevant Falcon shouldn't be making top 4 at anything without an extremely lucky bracket.
Uthrow Uair 50/50 starts at about 125% on Falcon.
 

Krysco

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I'm really hesitant to ask this since it tends to lead to a **** show but it is in the green topics and it has been on my mind. With Sheik and Bayo doing well in theory and in practice (though Das Koopa's post at the top of this page shows Sheik has been dropping a bit, if only due to lack of attendance) with at least a few posters calling one or the other the best character in the game, I ask, does anyone think or feel either character needs another nerf? Not really caring for specific details if yes but I'm wondering what the general opinion is. Or heck, maybe for a lot of people it's not a 'yes, I want a nerf' but a 'I don't WANT one persay but I'd appreciate or wouldn't mind if one came'

Even if either character ends up having no bad mus, that's not doom and gloom for anything as Melee has shown with Fox and Falco. And them completely invalidating characters like :4ganondorf: isn't too bad since characters like him would need massive rehauls or buffs to be viable anyways.

I'm personally on the fence. I don't know enough about Bayo to give an opinion and with Sheik...I just honestly hate needles...like, a lot. **** needles.
 

Nobie

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To play Pit, you have to love the neutral. You can't just be good at it, you have to take actual pleasure in the exchange, and not see it as a means to an end. I think it's notable that ZeRo, a player who thrives on neutral, mentioned that he looks to Earth as an example of someone who excels in it.

Also, once on Twitter when Anti was listing characters who beat Mario, he included "Earth's Pit" as opposed to Pit in general.
 
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YerTheBestAROUND

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Sheik Falcon is a trash matchup and as long as she and Bayo are relevant Falcon shouldn't be making top 4 at anything without an extremely lucky bracket.
Uthrow Uair 50/50 starts at about 125% on Falcon.
Sheik can usually end a Falcon stock around that point (we'll say like 130-140%) so it's not like having the 50/50 instantly worsens the match up, at this point it basically just means she has something to fall back on if she feels she's struggling to kill Falcon and he's starting to rack up more percent on her. The main reason why I think Sheik will be/is worse than Pikachu is because:
1. She's much better in every gameplay state than Pikachu.
2. If you just wait and don't immediately try to punish Pikachu's landing options or whiffed moves that make him smaller, bair and down smash for example, and wait for him to not be too short for you to grab then you eliminate much of what Falcon's biggest problem with Pikachu was.
3. Pikachu is just proving more and more to not be all that amazing and that he really, really, really struggles at killing at a reasonable percent.

I'm really hesitant to ask this since it tends to lead to a **** show but it is in the green topics and it has been on my mind. With Sheik and Bayo doing well in theory and in practice (though Das Koopa's post at the top of this page shows Sheik has been dropping a bit, if only due to lack of attendance) with at least a few posters calling one or the other the best character in the game, I ask, does anyone think or feel either character needs another nerf? Not really caring for specific details if yes but I'm wondering what the general opinion is. Or heck, maybe for a lot of people it's not a 'yes, I want a nerf' but a 'I don't WANT one persay but I'd appreciate or wouldn't mind if one came'

Even if either character ends up having no bad mus, that's not doom and gloom for anything as Melee has shown with Fox and Falco. And them completely invalidating characters like :4ganondorf: isn't too bad since characters like him would need massive rehauls or buffs to be viable anyways.

I'm personally on the fence. I don't know enough about Bayo to give an opinion and with Sheik...I just honestly hate needles...like, a lot. **** needles.
Nope. Sheik requires a lot of work to be good with and I think Bayonetta has more less favorable match ups than the majority would seem to think which holds her back enough in my opinion.
For example, I think it's very likely that Bayonetta would struggle slightly with a ZeRo style Sheik because it's entirely possible to have that gameplan vs her due to the uthrow 50/50. Camp around with needles, only commit to what you know you can land -fair strings, some tilts- and then grab her and kill her.

For the record, my top three right now is Sheik, Sonic, Bayonetta.
 
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Ninety

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Seriously. NAKAT is objectively not on the level of the rest of his team, all of the EC crew, or most of the Japan one. Why get bent out of place over calling him weak in this context.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

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Seriously. NAKAT is objectively not on the level of the rest of his team, all of the EC crew, or most of the Japan one. Why get bent out of place over calling him weak in this context.
I'm hesitant to say he's not at their level, because I think he very well could be at their level, he just hasn't displayed such a performance yet. However, I agree that it really shouldn't matter to us because pretty much everyone who plays this game at the higher levels also played Brawl and they all have a history together so I really doubt that many of them are sleeping on anyone.
 

TheGoodGuava

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I do think M2 could end up in the same boat as Sheik and Bayo, he has every tool he needs to do fine against any character in the game.
The Diddy vs M2 matchup is overexaggerated. Diddy does poorly against camping even when a character has worse mobility than him, so when a character that excels at camping has mobility much better than Diddy's its a problem. If a M2 wants to run away from Diddy, ledge canceling teleports and charging Shadowball, hes going to do it pretty damn well.

On the Sheik matchup, I can't see it becoming worse than a 50:50. Sheik has a 50/50 off of upthrow that only has the potential to kill only ~25% earlier than Mewtwos guaranteed up throw. Considering Mewtwo does more damage per conversion he should be getting Sheik to kill percent faster and thus killing her much faster than she kills him. If the M2 mains start learning the insane 0 - 60s off of dtilt and pulling them off to the same consistency as Greninja mains, we could see Sheik at kill percent in just two or three combos, or you know, outright 0 - deathing her.

The fact Falco's that high. I get it, he's a bird, he jumps high. But that's way too high.
He's not meant to be higher than Link.
Link's not even supposed to be that high to begin with, or is he?
 
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Shady Shaymin

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I'm really hesitant to ask this since it tends to lead to a **** show but it is in the green topics and it has been on my mind. With Sheik and Bayo doing well in theory and in practice (though Das Koopa's post at the top of this page shows Sheik has been dropping a bit, if only due to lack of attendance) with at least a few posters calling one or the other the best character in the game, I ask, does anyone think or feel either character needs another nerf? Not really caring for specific details if yes but I'm wondering what the general opinion is. Or heck, maybe for a lot of people it's not a 'yes, I want a nerf' but a 'I don't WANT one persay but I'd appreciate or wouldn't mind if one came'

Even if either character ends up having no bad mus, that's not doom and gloom for anything as Melee has shown with Fox and Falco. And them completely invalidating characters like :4ganondorf: isn't too bad since characters like him would need massive rehauls or buffs to be viable anyways.

I'm personally on the fence. I don't know enough about Bayo to give an opinion and with Sheik...I just honestly hate needles...like, a lot. **** needles.
No one needs a nerf anymore. The meta is doing exactly what it's been needing to do for a goddamn long time.

For the first time in this game's lifespan, metagame trends are actually occurring as a result of the meta evolving rather than because of drastic patches. It's so fascinating to see things change and techniques developed from our community.

Cloud and Ryu were supposedly the apex predators of our meta after 1.1.6. dropped. But who of us could have expected that instead, today we'd all be here still discussing Sheik and Bayonetta and their absurdly good kits after both were nerfed? Diddy was really annoying for a lot of 1.1.6 but he's been slowing down steadily because counterplay emerged. Marcina are on the rise and only show signs of going up. Mewtwo is steadily picking up the results of a top 10 character.

Combos are getting longer and more extended follow-ups are happening in top level play. The meta of downthrow->forward air is slowly becoming the meta of sour downtilt->perfect pivot uilt->shff fair->footstool->etc. (that was all just a random amalgamation of combo starting buzzwords and inputs but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox can actually do that against fastfallers). It's just great to see Smash 4 grow finally.
 

Molk

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Alright so, this is a little bit off topic, but i had some time and decided to answer one of FeelMeUp FeelMeUp 's other questions in his post from a few pages back, this time, i decided to go with something that isn't matchup related, and that is....

What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
Of course, just like the last post, this is just my opinion, if you disagree with me that's totally cool.

With that out of the way, i'm going to provide my personal opinion on one area in which G&W mains can improve to get better results with the character and possibly help him be viewed more in a positive light, and that is getting better at setting up for KOs. If i think up more ways i think G&W players can improve i might make a followup post, possibly with some other questions answered as well.

Personally, i feel like a lot of G&W players (myself included) are very reliant on using Toot Toot to take stocks, and while Toot Toot is definitely a good set up, it only works in a certain percentage window, and oftentimes i find that when opponents get out of that window, a lot of players fall apart and have a lot of trouble KOing the opponent. To remedy this, i feel like G&W players want to go into the lab and look for some other confirms outside of Dthrow Uair that can lead into kills on at least certain portions of the cast, if confirms are found, it would make G&W a lot less reliant on landing that one combo during what can be quite a tight window depending on the matchup to effectively kill, if confirms are found that work after Toot Toot stops working, it would mean that G&W players would still have a way to set up for a KO even after that window, and the sort of "miss the Toot Toot confirm, have a ton of trouble sealing the deal afterwards, and lose the game" thing that i (and maybe all of you) notice a lot in G&W play (including but not limited to my own) will happen less often. If kill confirms are found that work before Toot Toot starts working, or confirms into a grab at percents where Toot Toot will KO are found, taking early stocks consistently (aka, not with a gimp, charged smash attack, or 9/bucket) will become much easier.

But Molk, what if these confirms don't exist in reality? What if G&W has absolutely no realistic/reliable KO setups outside of Toot Toot, and no ways to set up into Toot Toot itself?

Well, the good news is that G&W has a few KO setups that are already known, and are arguably realistic to pull off in an actual match! For the purpose of this post i'll give two examples. To start off, there's a hitbox on the first hit of Nair that's capable of comboing into Uair at KO percents after Toot Toot stops working! To put this into perspective, this combo starts KOing DK (note his vertical endurance is amazing, almost every other character in the game is going to get KOed earlier) at just under 130%, the window for this combo to work seems to be quite large as well, as this hitbox of Nair *still* sets up into Uair on DK at the very least at 200%. The first hit of Uair can also set up for KOs (and low percent combos!) in a pretty much identical way. The second setup utilizes a hitbox on the third hit of Nair which sends the opponent downwards and in front of G&W, this hitbox is capable of comboing into a Grab at percentages where Toot Toot will KO, and getting hit by this setup will confirm into kills ~13% before the Toot Toot window starts due to the damage Nair does, i actually have a video of this one, which i'll provide below, there's more info in the description as well

Nair into Grab as a setup into Dthrow Uair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBbF_NZ8KoE

In my opinion, it's up to G&W players to try and find setups like these and implement them (and the ones that are already known of course) into their gameplay, it could make taking stocks a lot easier overall, and depending on how many reliable KO setups are found, the notion of the character having trouble killing might not be a thing in the future, who knows.
 
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Megamang

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As long as there is a competitive scene with players who want to beat eachother, the game is growing.

I agree we have a good stable meta, but it isnt because the developers stopped touching it... its due to their changes we have a diverse meta now. Im not gonna name oppressive tools, but suffice to say we probably wouldnt have kame vs zero or prince ramin vs zero, unless they switched to the centralizing tools we finally get to live (almost completely) free from.


1.1.6. Is a solid foundation for a meta. 1.0.6. Was not.


Not a green topic, but i think we owe the patch makers more credit than now that they're done with that crap we can finally learn this game.

We were learning all along. I promise. Now the meta can settle. But why were we in a rush when the final form of settle is stagnate?

Thank you for balancing this game, devs. Around this time in brawl it was becoming increasingly evident picking MK was my only good path; now i have 3 mains and play most of the cast at a low level, and feel most MUs are doable.
 

NairWizard

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NAKAT is the * only * Fox player to ever play the Mario matchup correctly against either Anti or Ally.

The only one.

That should say a lot.
 
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