Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[thehard]

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Leo got his visa! So expect more "Meta Knight is top 15/Meta Knight is not top 15" arguments coming your way in the near future!

But seriously I'm so happy

 

[JayE]

Arguments suck....

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hey. I'm going to come back here for a while, since I would be interested in talking about the tournament we will witness in a few hours.
As always, I am glad Kogarasuma is attending, however, I must admit I am slightly nervous he is supposedly fighting Rich Brown as his first fight?...
May luck be on Koga's side. I'm sure he'll pull through.
However, I wish everyone that attends the tournament very good luck, and I hope they will all give it their best shot.

 

[adom4]

On the topic of incredible hitbubbles don't forget 's rings. 's Uair is crazy but she so rare and flawed in other ways that nobody notices.

I'll try to phrase this as a gameplay statement rather than a hypothetical buff statement. has surprisingly good footsies because his range is huge and powerful attacks do better in SSB4 due to the shield mechanics. A big downside he has that other super heavies don't is his terrible recovery. I'll die at 130% with him because the distance is so short. He can get dragged down easily by simple Nairs or projectiles if they know how to avoid his upB/sideB hitbubbles and dies very early. A better recovery wouldn't make him great but would help him keep up with the other heavies. Ganon would also do better on a stage list of only small stages; chasing down an agile opponent on DH or T&C is hell.

has some surprisingly good and (dare I say) underrated options at close range. Her big problem is she doesn't have a way to force opponents to respect her and relies on them messing up. Her air game is worse than her ground game in this sense. If she had a good spacing Fair that was weaker but safe it would really help. Her projectiles were designed around walling with phantom and sending din's or her upB through but both are slow and easy to shield/avoid. Phantom can't be held indefinitely (like Link's arrows) or shield canceled so you can simply wait it out then return to the stage or whatever. It's a good defensive move but that describes her entire kit. Din's is pretty worthless and seems to be made for multiplayer party matches. A quick offensive projectile instead would have done her wonders. Even a weak thing like Mario's fireballs to force action.

They're currently not as bad as past low tiers but bottom tiers none the less. It's a shame a few fundamental changes like the ones outlined would have done them wonders.

Duck hunt is weirdly good for Ganon is a surprising amount of MUs.
The Bush and the tree really help him with landing & he can escape ledge traps more easily on the left side because of his great ledge jump, unless it's against really heavy campers or characters that can abuse the tree well for timeouts like .

 

[Justinian]

Arguments suck....

Not necessarily. Blind arguments, or ones where both sides aren't as well equipped for the argument as they should be, do suck, but ones that lead to action that betters a character, the meta, or even one person's abilities are totally worth it.

 

[JayE]

Not necessarily. Blind arguments, or ones where both sides aren't as well equipped for the argument as they should be, do suck, but ones that lead to action that betters a character, the meta, or even one person's abilities are totally worth it.

Lol yeah I know that there can arguments with positive outcomes. I'm referring to arguments that are just bad. I was waiting for someone to say that, lol
I should clarify then. Negative conflicts suck

 

[Megamang]

He can play how he wants!

Yea well... dude can say what he wants. I want San to win against Wrath. Certainly we can say this. Everyone knows you can play however you want within the rules.

I for one hope KEN style is more optimal than spinshield. For viewership, meta, stagnation, and yes personal reasons.

 

[JayE]

Yea well... dude can say what he wants. I want San to win against Wrath. Certainly we can say this. Everyone knows you can play however you want within the rules.

I for one hope KEN style is more optimal than spinshield. For viewership, meta, stagnation, and yes personal reasons.

Yeah! Thank you

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming

Little Big House 2 is happening now. Komorikiri, Kamemushi, Zinoto, Nairo, Abadango, Rich Brown, and maybe Mr. R are all attending. It's a pre-TBH6 thing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So... many Sonics lol
6WX and Craftis are fun to watch. But Wrath? Lamest Sonic main. I'm pretty sure he's PROUD of his playstyle. Smh

Don't hate on the guy for playing intelligently with his char and abusing what makes Sonic...Sonic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People hating on Wrath as if the kid ever did anything wrong. How many tournaments outside of his own region did he win with his playstyle again?

 

[JayE]

Don't hate on the guy for playing intelligently with his char and abusing what makes Sonic...Sonic.

I don't hate the guy... I'm not saying he's playing wrong, I don't think there's a complete wrong way to play. I just don't like his playstyle. Just like how any other person can dislike certain playstyles or players. I'm not taking any of his wins from him, I'm not slandering the kid. Sorry for having an opinion.

 

[Megamang]

Sonic made me, me. If only that one guy that timed me out, knew... what id become!

Seriously though, nothing is more satisfying than timing out sonic on the SV platform with leaf shield.

 

[TDK]

https://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming

Little Big House 2 is happening now. Komorikiri, Kamemushi, Zinoto, Nairo, Abadango, Rich Brown, and maybe Mr. R are all attending. It's a pre-TBH6 thing.

176 entrants, ridiculously stacked. Will you be counting this?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Leo got his visa! So expect more "Meta Knight is top 15/Meta Knight is not top 15" arguments coming your way in the near future!

But seriously I'm so happy

More Marth and Cloud too. Finally, more tournaments with a player who actually uses perfect pivots and every movement tech he's capable of doing at his disposal to make his neutral and spacing so much more solid and dynamic.

 

[DungeonMaster]

But

I feel the pain of the Jiggs mains (I like the puff personally). But it's not the hitbox sizes. they're quite good overall, not sword level but they're disjointed, much more than say a Samus f-tilt. It's how unsafe she is on shield, so a combination of damage and frame data, specifically cooldown.
I will not be the first one to admit: he may just hate this character and think of it as a joke character. Like a Dan from street fighter.
We all know from the combo counter in training mode that this game used to have a very different balance in testing than when it hit the market, it's speculation but as is well documented with Samus last minute nerfs did happen, Jiggs may have had a similar treatment. It took them a looooong time to buff Samus, there may be hope for Jiggs with NX. I sure hope they do buff the puff.

 

[Das Koopa]

176 entrants, ridiculously stacked. Will you be counting this?

yes

 

[Luco]

I have been noticing a general trend that the only pool of mains that consistently place Meta Knight as in their favor for their characrer are either Diddy Kong players, which is justified, and low tier mains.

I find the idea that characters like Lucas and Link have a +1 on Meta Knight to be rather cute indeed.

Lucas isn't a low tier. He also does a fantastic job at exploiting MK's sub-par neutral game. M8888.

It's worth noting that Ghost believes this MU is still MK's favour, but I would like to submit the idea that Lucas' boxing game is really really good and shouldn't be ignored, nor should it be ignored that he can stock cap MK at around the 75% mark in the best / worst cases (more commonly around 90-100) and isn't particularly easy to edge-guard. I don't have *too* much experience with the MU but last I recall it you seemed to think this was a 60:40 MU. Why? :/

I haven't seen any top level sets of this MU, but Ghost and I played it recently so might be interesting to watch that. Relevant for the first 3 games.

 

[The-Technique]

Lucas is hella underrated, I can see him overtaking Ness in the near future if Taiheita and other players step up to keep making waves. His grab game, footstool combos, and relatively less exploitable recovery are nothing to laugh at

 

[L9999]

Is there a universal law that if you don't mention Ness while mentioning Lucas you blow up into a billion pieces?

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas is hella underrated, I can see him overtaking Ness in the near future if Taiheita and other players step up to keep making waves. His grab game, footstool combos, and relatively less exploitable recovery are nothing to laugh at

For the record I believe Lucas is a better and currently more relevant character than Ness, but I find little point to compare the two. They have drastically different playstyles.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

MK's neutral being sub par is a joke tbh

Strong mobility + threatens shield/options against shield + safe spacing options + a projectile are what make a godly neutral *cough* Sheik/M2/Diddy *cough*. All MK lacks is the projectile which could be made up for by his godlike step dash/perfect pivot

The year is 20MK. Everyone has switched to Bidou and dashing is no an option. Instead players just slide across the stage with step dashes and perfect pivots. Floaties are completely unviable solely because of Meta Knights existence.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

In fact, Mk players can't even use bidou because buffering u-airs while following DI and having to turnaround is near impossible with a bidou setup. Secondly, MK's neutral is subpar all he really has is dashing(which no MK is optimizing enough) and short hop/perfect pivot stuff, which aren't as important as the former. Spamming MK short hop isnt really that viable since his options from it are **** aside from OoS. Secondly he cant really abuse his dash speed as far as a tool to control neutral b/c of his lack of an air poke. Thing is, this isnt too important since his advantage state and punish game is too good.

 

[Nobie]

I was actually thinking about Jigglypuff and reflecting on the idea that "undertuned" is the perfect word to describe it.

Consider the following:

-Jigglypuff is an aerial-based character: the floatiest character in the game, multiple jumps, 2nd highest air speed, etc.
-Because Jigglypuff is in the air more often than not, and because it lacks a command grab, this means it can't threaten shield the way most characters can.
-Also, Jigglypuff is bad at tomahawking due to said floatiness
-But Jigglypuff has a move that does a lot of shield damage: Pound. So ideally, if the opponent isn't shielding, you space aerials. If the opponent IS shielding, you use Pound.
-...Except Pound doesn't do quiiiite enough shield damage to regularly break them, and it has huge endlag that's punishable. So, people aren't forced out of shield as often as Jigglypuff would like.

There are a few other odd quirks of the character worth noting, like having really solid traction that allows it to land grabs that other characters wouldn't...except Jigglypuff also has tiny, tiny arms, which makes grabs difficult in the first place.

If patches were possible, more shield damage on key attacks might do the trick. Without them, though, the main angle of development I see possible is getting better at understanding when the opponent does and does not want to shield and wearing them down accordingly.

 

[Deleted member]

Well... I guess I'm taking a very big risk here. This is basically what it says on the tin. Considering that matchup charts are a yellow topic I may as well try to explain some things about this first, and hopefully it can lead into some interesting discussion (even if it's short-lived).

I abstained from just using numbers to describe each of the matchups on this list, and I apologize if it's a bit wordy/messy. Also left out characters where I legit don't know the matchup or haven't really come to clear thoughts regarding them. I tend to dislike the trend of people guestimating so I guess I wanted to be more honest. Shulk's matchups aren't discussed very often neither is the character in general, so I hope this isn't a vapid effort.

 

[TDK]

Add Kamemushi to Salem's win list.

EDIT: "Komorikiri knows his way around a banana"

EDIT2: Add 6WX to Salem's win list too.

 

[Megamang]

Add that MU to your 'WHY MIDWEST, WHY U SEED THAT?' playlist.

To make this post useful:

Perhaps jiggly should focus more on ground 2 air conversion? Her throws AND pummels do lots of damage, so if you get thrown she doesnt have to worry about a followup (therefor char physics, 5050s, etc) to know it was worthwhile. Her dash attack mixes you up if you try to stop the grabs, her rising fair is quick, nair covers crossups and airdodges well... weak rising fair can combo to rest.

Which, lets be honest... shes gotta hit that rest OR a gimp or shes playing from a disadvantage.

 

[Das Koopa]

Nairo got 7th going solo Lucina. Not terrible, beat Komo with her and had a decently close set with Kameme

 

[L9999]

And this is why we should rate characters on their own merits instead of doing pointless comparisons. Good stuff to Nairo.

 

[The-Technique]

God damn it Dath was so close. He had a great lead on Salem but Bayo's punish game is so good.

I still maintain that Robin is top 20. Most slept on high tier in the game.

 

[Nu~]

And that beautiful display right there...is why lemons are stupid as a gimp tool lol

Robin just couldn't keep up with mega man's pressure and lost a stock nearly every time he was forced to recover.

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah Kameme is like a clockwork, so many gears turning at once, and Robin can't do her usual thing because Mega Man controls space so well. To make mattters worse, Mega Man has some of the best aerial mobility in the game so not only is it harder for Robin to land grabs, her Checkmate can even be DI'd away from.

Ugh I'm still reeling from Dath's previous match, he totally could have beaten Salem. Maybe he'll get the runback like he did with ESAM.

 

[TDK]

Apparently Salem beat Aba too...

 

[Das Koopa]

Little Big House 2
1st: Salem
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Rich Brown ,
4th: Kamemushi
5th: Dath
5th: 6WX
7th: JJROCKETS
7th: Nairo
9th: Shogun
9th: Komorikiri
9th: Kie
9th: FILIP
13th: Ksev
13th: WaDi
13th: Remzi
13th: Sodrek

 

[TDK]

Ignore this

 

[Jjab430]

Bayonetta and Mewtwo are both extremely stupid characters. Honestly, they're my picks for #1 and 2 respectively with only Diddy rivaling their level of stupidity.

 

[blackghost]

after salem does well at big house get ready for ban bayo all over again.
abadongo has no idea how to sdi her.
dath does.
also dont confuse salem's skill with bayo and claim she has no weaknesses salem is just truly amazing at masking her weaknesses like any high tier player.

 

[Das Koopa]

Bayonetta and Mewtwo are both extremely stupid characters. Honestly, they're my picks for #1 and 2 respectively with only Diddy rivaling their level of stupidity.

no

 

[TDK]

Little Big House 2
1st: Salem
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Rich Brown ,
4th: Kamemushi
5th: Dath
5th: 6WX
7th: JJROCKETS
7th: Nairo
9th: Shogun
9th: Komorikiri
9th: Kie
9th: FILIP
13th: Ksev
13th: WaDi
13th: Remzi
13th: Sodrek

I got ninja'd hard by you this time...

On another note: Salem only dropped 4 games this entire tournament. One to Shogun, one to Abadango, one to Dath, and one to 6WX.

That's insane.

 

[Das Koopa]

Salem dropped games to Dath and 6WX too

Shogun and JJ had really good showings today