Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Greward]

Tournies compiled for the weekend.

Spoiler: Umebura 25 (September 10th) (Japan) (212 Entrants) (Category 2)

Spoiler: Syndicate 2015 (September 10th-11th) (320 Entrants) (Category 2)

Spoiler: Smashadelphia II (September 11th) (Tristate) (127 Entrants) (Category 1)

Spoiler: DI Another Day 2 (September 10th-11th) (Australia) (103 Entrants) (Category 1)

Spoiler: TGL Monthly 9 (September 11th) (Florida) (97 Entrants) (Category 1)

Spoiler: Don’t You Dair 3 (September 11th) (NorCal) (90 Entrants) (Category 1)

Spoiler: Mid-South Championships (September 10th-11th) (South) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)

EDIT: correct any errors etc

(Syndicate 2016) I played mostly Olimar, Bowser and Mega just for one set each.

 

[Dabuz]

I'd like to note for Bayo vs. Rosa results, I 2-0ed Saj with Olimar, no Rosa.

I also played Pink Fresh at evo and we went 1-1 with Rosa-Bayo and 1-0 Olimar-Bayo

Could you put set counts for each player/ matchup when making those posts? It makes the data a lot more clear, since a matchup might be inflated or deflated because of player matchups. For examples Sheik vs. Fox will look very different if you look at Void vs. Larry and then any other fox vs. any other Sheik.

 

[NegaNixx]

I'd like to note for Bayo vs. Rosa results, I 2-0ed Saj with Olimar, no Rosa.

I also played Pink Fresh at evo and we went 1-1 with Rosa-Bayo and 1-0 Olimar-Bayo

Could you put set counts for each player/ matchup when making those posts? It makes the data a lot more clear, since a matchup might be inflated or deflated because of player matchups. For examples Sheik vs. Fox will look very different if you look at Void vs. Larry and then any other fox vs. any other Sheik.

Thank you for the clarification! I'll put it in, I do have the set counts on hand I just don't put it in the finalized data. I'll find a way to add it in and still make it look pretty.

 

[Das Koopa]

I think I've fixed all the errors now. Dunno how I missed the Mr. E/Mr. R mixup lol thanks for pointing it out

 

[Ethan7]

Das Koopa do you think online qualifiers like Key to The PG H... | Details should be included in your rankings? Since these events are much more accessible for people to get in to these events, they can have the attendance numbers of category 4 tournaments, but the number of top level players are few so they definitely can't be considered that high. What do you think?

 

[san.]

If you are playing a cloud is whiffing ingredients air attacks the cloud player is awful. that isn't evidence that jiggs doesn't do poorly vs cloud. jiggs is an air based character clouds elite moves of nair and up air are nightmares for jiggs to deal with.

I think you don't really have much understanding of any high level jiggs play. Her gameplay is focused around quick bursts of movement from ground to air with good autocancels and small size. Even though her shield is bad, her traction is still pretty good. Poor air dodge frame data, poor trades, poor hitboxes below her, and floatiness don't mix well if she's in the air too much in neutral, since she lacks ways to deal with pressure from that area.

Cloud's poor grounded pokes essentially forces Jigglypuff (and most other characters in general) to that style of play regardless.

Everyone whiffs attacks since 2 players are moving around in an attempt to seize openings. The Cloud player also can't be too predictable with landing aerials since that is easily powershieldable.

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa do you think online qualifiers like Key to The PG H... | Details should be included in your rankings? Since these events are much more accessible for people to get in to these events, they can have the attendance numbers of category 4 tournaments, but the number of top level players are few so they definitely can't be considered that high. What do you think?

I grappled with this over Road to Shine 2016 a month ago and my personal conclusion is that lag interferes too much. This was definitely the case at RtS, and I can't imagine it didn't pop up a few times at Key, and lag/choppiness is an external factor that heavily affects gameplay. I'd rather not include it.

 

[blackghost]

I think you don't really have much understanding of any high level jiggs play. Her gameplay is focused around quick bursts of movement from ground to air with good autocancels and small size. Even though her shield is bad, her traction is still pretty good. Poor air dodge frame data, poor trades, poor hitboxes below her, and floatiness don't mix well if she's in the air too much in neutral, since she lacks ways to deal with pressure from that area.

Cloud's poor grounded pokes essentially forces Jigglypuff (and most other characters in general) to that style of play regardless.

Everyone whiffs attacks since 2 players are moving around in an attempt to seize openings. The Cloud player also can't be too predictable with landing aerials since that is easily powershieldable.

jiggs gets crushed in this mu becuase she cannot approach and she is forced to simultaneously due to a combination of limit and disjoint. and i really dont see how you counter that argument. yes jiggs has strong air attacks if she gets past the massive sword but it doesnt change the fact that once cloud has limit his gorund and air speed increase to a ridiculous level and LCS doesnt care about jiggs ducking or in some cases shielding. what exactly is jiggs supposed to do to beat cloud or even comete assuming the players on equal skill level?

 

[my_T]

Taranito taking the set over Tsu~ is like the only notable win ness has had in a while.

How do the lucario players feel about this match-up? I think ness has atleast a slight advantage (55/45).

Long story short, PSI magnet decreases the utility of aura sphere in neutral. Ness dsmash at the ledge is really good because Lucarios' ****ty ledge snap. Ness has good kill options so he wont be living too long in most cases. Lucarios neutral isn't that great in general so Ness won't struggle in neutral as much as he does in other match-ups. Aura and rage are still a thing

Thoughts?

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Don't underestimate how much the seemingly small fair buffs transformed a decent move into a ridiculous one. It went from being a strong attack that was safeish to one of the safest, most versatile attacks in the entire game, and something capable of directly challenging Sheik's pre-patch fair in combat.

Another fun aspect of why Mewtwo is different from its Melee counterpart is actually the fact that they went with the more modern Mewtwo design. In Melee, Mewtwo had a frame 5 d-tilt that was also really good, but the character was also much squatter in terms of proportions, meaning a shorter tail. Now Mewtwo has this gigantic appendage in line with its more humanoid appearance. Same thing goes for fair. Now, Mewtwo lunges its entire body forward, giving the move more range. You can see them struggle with how to balance Mewtwo out, originally trying to mitigate Mewtwo's new proportions with proper frame data changes, and overcompensating as a result upon first release.

As an aesthete (read: shallow person), I think this was the biggest buff Mewtwo got since Melee. His old model looks so weird, especially when combined with Melee's occasionally ugly textures. Look at the size of his head! The 2001 (only 5 years after Pokemon debuted, if you recall) Mewtwo model is noticeably from the era of "Mewtwo is a genetic abomination designed in a lab." He's still man-made, but Nintendo has since downplayed the abomination aspect.

Actually, now that I think about it, I kind of like the old design, but the Melee model was not great. On top of that, his animations were kind of creepy and jerky. He lunges and twists his whole upper body for his F-Air, barely even extending his arm. Shadow Ball also seems noticeably less smooth to me. I wonder if that was all by design, to make him more unsettling and evil. Or perhaps my memory is exaggerating the differences. I haven't had the chance to play Melee for a while.

 

[Yonder]

(Syndicate 2016) I played mostly Olimar, Bowser and Mega just for one set each.

Know who I see a lot of here? Bowser. Maybe not top 8, but at least in the standings as a secondary or solo in all of these tournies.

I still feel as he has more potential then people realize and will clash with DK a lot for #1 heavyweight in the game.

Funny how both these characters have incredibly good tilts, so that's ruled out as the tie breaker...

Bowser has much better specials than DK overall, DK has the edge aerial attack wise (Bowser has that unappealing dair, DK can kinda set up into his garbage fair at least)and DK has the holy mother of god bair. but Bowser can rack damage with nair well too. Their smashes are pretty even, although I think Bowser's u smash is the best of them all between the two, I've seen it catch so many players on the edge, even at high play (Lord Mix has this as a go to kill move).

DK I think takes it mobility wise overall thanks to his top 10 air speed.

Bowser has a better OOS game.

Frame data...idk who has the better numbers overall.

I'm torn.

Edit: meant to quote the results but didn't can't fix now im in a rush

 

[|RK|]

Quick question (and I know this may not be the perfect place to ask it) - is there a list of initial dash speeds somewhere?

 

[NairWizard]

jiggs gets crushed in this mu becuase she cannot approach and she is forced to simultaneously due to a combination of limit and disjoint. and i really dont see how you counter that argument. yes jiggs has strong air attacks if she gets past the massive sword but it doesnt change the fact that once cloud has limit his gorund and air speed increase to a ridiculous level and LCS doesnt care about jiggs ducking or in some cases shielding. what exactly is jiggs supposed to do to beat cloud or even comete assuming the players on equal skill level?

Jiggs can't approach in the air because she can't get through Cloud's huge aerial hitboxes, but she doesn't need to. Approaching on the ground is easy for most characters against Cloud, and since Jiggs is particularly good at ground to air transitions it works out pretty well for her overall. What's Cloud doing to do if Jiggs stays mostly grounded with foxtrots, dash to shields, empty hops, and dash attacks/jabs?

f-tilt? roll? charge limit? crossslash? All of these are punishable actions and you can bait/punish a Cloud into/for committing to them in different situations.

That's not to say that Jigglypuff goes even with or beats Cloud, but it's far from a slaughter and it's definitely not for the reasons you've described.

 

[Nah]

Quick question (and I know this may not be the perfect place to ask it) - is there a list of initial dash speeds somewhere?

If I understand this right, "Dash Speed" on this spreadsheet should be everyone's initial dash speed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bO7oaM4HLH0xgq3CmGiRTUF2Ftm_00A6u-g7ow220g/pubhtml#

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Also, it's not just FLUDD that Cloud fears from Mario. Mario edgeguards Cloud basically for free with FLUDD, Cape and Back Air, Mario combos Cloud very easily as soon as he conditions him to shield, and Cloud doesn't often do much to reliably get out of them, and as soon as Mario gets in he can overwhelm Cloud very quickly. There's more to the game than just onstage play. Just watch how Mario wins against the best Cloud and you can see why people say this might be in Mario's favour.

At the same time we see Ally losing to M2K or even Neb, and if both situations are happening then that would be more indicative of even, not Mario's favor.

Cloud's not exactly bad at edge guarding himself either. A giant nair that lasts forever coming towards Mario is threatening, Limit Cross Slash is threatening, Limit Blade Beam offstage towards the ledge to catch the 2-frame is under utilized and such an amazing tool. And more often than not nowadays Clouds are either just jumping straight to the ledge or using Climhazzard right as they're next to it so they snap to the ledge. Not to mention he can stall with blade beam and cross slash, so I wouldn't call Cloud's recovery free either.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Some thoughts I've been sitting on that I think would be nice to discuss:
-Luigi/Kirby/MK are probably the best counterpicks in the game when looking at effectiveness vs how easy they are to learn.

Luigi notably does decently/well against:
+Sheiks that don't camp
+Heavies
+Mario
+Fox
+Pikachu
+Diddy
Kirby against:
+Sheik
+Fox(trash matchup)
+Possibly Mario but would need a Kirby main to make sure
MK against:
+lol floaties
+ZSS

-Greninja's neutral is extremely underrated
-Ness sucks
-MKs existence and ease of use almost guarantees most floaties won't break into high tier and a lot of them will only get worsee
-"Just camp" is the answer to 80% of most people's MU issues vs characters like Mario and Heavies but most refuse to do it
-Bayo's dtilt bullets do a ridiculous amount of damage and have fair range, making it much harder to camp her with projectile characters than one would expect.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Was in the lab and did some testing. I still have some things to test with other characters but here is a vid I made for some characters to avoid Meta Knight's death combos.

 

[Y2Kay]

-Greninja's neutral is extremely underrated

What's happened recently that's made you think this? I'm curious.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Some thoughts I've been sitting on that I think would be nice to discuss:
-Luigi/Kirby/MK are probably the best counterpicks in the game when looking at effectiveness vs how easy they are to learn.

Luigi notably does decently/well against:
+Sheiks that don't camp
+Heavies
+Mario
+Fox
+Pikachu
+Diddy
Kirby against:
+Sheik
+Fox(trash matchup)
+Possibly Mario but would need a Kirby main to make sure
MK against:
+lol floaties
+ZSS

-Greninja's neutral is extremely underrated
-Ness sucks
-MKs existence and ease of use almost guarantees most floaties won't break into high tier and a lot of them will only get worsee
-"Just camp" is the answer to 80% of most people's MU issues vs characters like Mario and Heavies but most refuse to do it
-Bayo's dtilt bullets do a ridiculous amount of damage and have fair range, making it much harder to camp her with projectile characters than one would expect.

Kirby main here. The Mario MU, at least from my experience, is a -1 at worst. Being able to DI out of his D-Throw into U-Tilt combo string is a major plus if you ask me. As usual, Kirby has a pretty decent combo game at early to mid percents, U-Throw can reliably kill on stages like Smashville (Kirby's safest and best stage IMO), and getting the Copy Ability does help Kirby with spacing Mario than it does as a damage option. Mario can still cause problems, though, especially when it comes to edge guarding. Kirby's pretty easy to edge guard thanks to his slow air speed and predictability (the only good thing about Final Cutter is that it snaps onto the ledge). It also doesn't help that Kirby's really light, meaning that Mario doesn't need much rage to kill Kirby. Mario's debatable amongst Kirby players on whether or not he's only a -1 or -2, but I think it's a very doable MU, even if Kirby's not the best choice to go for when fighting Mario.

Also, I'd like to object to Kirby being easy to learn. He's not the most difficult character to understand and pick up, but Kirby works far better as a defensive (preferably bait and punish) than he does an aggressive character. I'm not sure how many of you guys have experience in the Kirby MU, but notice how some Kirby's won't really come to you. He has awful approach options, and the Kirby players know this. This is why Sheik needs to play this MU patiently if she wants to beat Kirby, because if she plays aggressively, Kirby's going to counter that. If you're talking about Kirby being a solo option, Kirby can't really work as a solo option. While he does pretty decently against characters like Fox and Sheik, characters like Rosalina, Sonic, Cloud, and Luigi can tear him apart really easily. Some Kirby players like myself are considering using Copy Abilities more, because while not all of them can turn the tide of a match the same way Charge Shot, Monado Arts, or Bonus Fruit can, a good chunk of the abilities do give Kirby an option in some way to help him out.

Kirby's a character that has a bigger future being a counterpick character than he does as a solo main. Kirby really does need someone to help him out. Personally, I think Mega Man is a really good pick considering that he can give characters like Sonic, Luigi, DK, Bowser, Cloud, and even Rosalina some amount of trouble, even if Bowser and Rosalina are even MUs. While Kirby is not an awful character, he does have a good number of shortcomings that keep him from making a significant impact in competitive play, though players like MikeKirby and Triple R have gotten some good results with him.

 

[|RK|]

If I understand this right, "Dash Speed" on this spreadsheet should be everyone's initial dash speed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bO7oaM4HLH0xgq3CmGiRTUF2Ftm_00A6u-g7ow220g/pubhtml#

Thank you so much!

Some thoughts I've been sitting on that I think would be nice to discuss:
-Luigi/Kirby/MK are probably the best counterpicks in the game when looking at effectiveness vs how easy they are to learn.

Luigi notably does decently/well against:
+Sheiks that don't camp
+Heavies
+Mario
+Fox
+Pikachu
+Diddy
Kirby against:
+Sheik
+Fox(trash matchup)
+Possibly Mario but would need a Kirby main to make sure
MK against:
+lol floaties
+ZSS

-Greninja's neutral is extremely underrated
-Ness sucks
-MKs existence and ease of use almost guarantees most floaties won't break into high tier and a lot of them will only get worsee
-"Just camp" is the answer to 80% of most people's MU issues vs characters like Mario and Heavies but most refuse to do it
-Bayo's dtilt bullets do a ridiculous amount of damage and have fair range, making it much harder to camp her with projectile characters than one would expect.

Eh, Mario would be a bit of a sore point. Most Kirby players believe the Mario MU is terrible. I'm not sure if the MU is being played correctly, but pairing them against each other - Mario gets in easier than Kirby can keep him out, and his combo game can still be quite damaging. Fireballs help, but...

Out of curiosity, why would you think Kirby could do well against Mario? It's possible there's something we're not seeing (again, I'm not sure the MU is being played as optimally as it could be).

EDIT: Lo and behold hahaha

 

[DunnoBro]

IMO Bowser's better than DK.

Better landing options(or rather better counterlandings), far better ledge coverage, and far more consistent due to kill throws in both forward AND backward, and a wider percent window for kill confirms off grab.

It comes down to decent fair, command grab, and more consistent reward off grab vs Edgeguarding and Potent kill confirms.

Ignoring DKwill, a character loyalist from brawl, Bowser's results are actually better recently.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What's happened recently that's made you think this? I'm curious.

Nothing's happened recently, actually.
I'm just consistently impressed with the character's mobility, ground game, projectile, kill power out of run, tilts, etc.
For his tier placement his neutral is extremely good. Much better than I previously thought.

good information

I think that the strengths Kirby abuses in matchups where he does well are what take no major effort to learn. I think MK is a fairly difficult character to use, but against floaties? Not so much.
With Kirby it doesn't take much knowledge of the character to annihilate, say, a Fox. It's more like 2+2.
Everything I've said is as a counterpick, however. I think Kirby is garbage as a solo character but amazing as a counterpick. MM is too difficult to use as a counterpick which is why I'd never have mentioned him.

Thank you so much!

Eh, Mario would be a bit of a sore point. Most Kirby players believe the Mario MU is terrible. I'm not sure if the MU is being played correctly, but pairing them against each other - Mario gets in easier than Kirby can keep him out, and his combo game can still be quite damaging. Fireballs help, but...

Out of curiosity, why would you think Kirby could do well against Mario? It's possible there's something we're not seeing (again, I'm not sure the MU is being played as optimally as it could be).

EDIT: Lo and behold hahaha

Kirby is pretty difficult for Mario to combo and a lot of his longer strings have risks attached to them vs Kirby because overextending could mean dying to stone off the top at 60.
Kirby's Utilt is probably one of the best moves in the game at stuffing approaches and when I look at Kirby vs Mario it seems like it'd be a lot of pp shield/pp utilt to stuff approaches or inch your way in. Mario's punish game on Kirby doesn't seem amazing, yet Kirby keeps his consistent punishes up until mid% and at kill %(with bair/usmash) vs Mario. Mario also has the issue of chasing characters that have the lead and Kirby does a good job of playing keep away with said Utilt, reverse inhale, and a few other things.
The way the matchup plays out in my head seems like it wouldn't be so bad for Kirby but the fact that he gets murdered so badly offstage could make it worse than I think.

 

[DunnoBro]

Kirby isn't hard for mario to combo at all. Possibly the easiest floaty to combo. He has poor airspeed and lacks priority on his aerials and jumps. Fthrow > Bair works until 10% (can lead to 40%+ or death if the airdodge is read offstage), dthrow > uair > dair kills from 50-60 percent with rage, dthrow > bair > bair can kill by the ledge due to his ass airspeed and light body. A lot of mario's don't know their floaty specific combos, but if they lack airspeed they're actually more potent than fastfaller combos.

Also kirby's combo game is waaaaay less consistent on mario due to SJP. Dair confirms are a 1/3 chance at best, and completely gone if he has platforms.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

IMO Bowser's better than DK.

Better landing options(or rather better counterlandings), far better ledge coverage, and far more consistent due to kill throws in both forward AND backward, and a wider percent window for kill confirms off grab.

It comes down to decent fair, command grab, and more consistent reward off grab vs Edgeguarding and Potent kill confirms.

Ignoring DKwill, a character loyalist from brawl, Bowser's results are actually better recently.

Also worth noting that DK will also had a Sheik when he was doing well with DK around this time last year and the beginning of this year. And speaking of Sheik, Bowser has a much better Sheik MU. It's still not all that amazing, but it's better than being forced to rely on tilts, nair, the occaisional up special, and a very specifc window for a grab kill confirm whilst also getting completely blown up in neutral and disadvantage.

I can see DK possibly having a better Cloud match up than Bowser though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Also worth noting that DK will also had a Sheik when he was doing well with DK around this time last year and the beginning of this year. And speaking of Sheik, Bowser has a much better Sheik MU. It's still not all that amazing, but it's better than being forced to rely on tilts, nair, the occaisional up special, and a very specifc window for a grab kill confirm whilst also getting completely blown up in neutral and disadvantage.

I can see DK possibly having a better Cloud match up than Bowser though.

Why is bowser better? Just consistency?

 

[my_T]

Why is bowser better? Just consistency?

Consistency and his defensive options

Consistency in that Bowser is always threatening your shield because of side B doing 18 damage and killing at reasonable percents and kills early with platforms and rage. This makes it so that him missing the window on his uthrow>uair combo isn't a big deal. After DK misses the Ding Dong window his grab isn't scary unless he back grabs you at the ledge, very situational. DK struggles to kill if he misses his window.

DK's shield is pretty much a punching bag for Sheik where as Bowser has up B and a bigger grab range so Sheik has to be more careful when going on the offensive against Bowser.

Those are the only two big differences in their Sheik match-up IMO

 

[FeelMeUp]

DK does do notably worse vs Sheik than Bowser.
Not only can Sheik not carelessly bully Bowser's shield with stuff like crossup nair/bair and rising fair with no risk, but you can ledgetrap DK for half the game while doing the same to Bowser is much much more difficult. Bowser's disadvantage isn't anywhere near as bad as DK's in the MU, and his advantage is comparable if not a good step better.

 

[Illuminose]

Ignoring DKwill, a character loyalist from brawl, Bowser's results are actually better recently.

http://smashrecord.harukisb.net/players/5355

yeah, no.

Consistency and his defensive options

Consistency in that Bowser is always threatening your shield because of side B doing 18 damage and killing at reasonable percents and kills early with platforms and rage. This makes it so that him missing the window on his uthrow>uair combo isn't a big deal. After DK misses the Ding Dong window his grab isn't scary unless he back grabs you at the ledge, very situational. DK struggles to kill if he misses his window.

DK's shield is pretty much a punching bag for Sheik where as Bowser has up B and a bigger grab range so Sheik has to be more careful when going on the offensive against Bowser.

Those are the only two big differences in their Sheik match-up IMO

DK is more threatening to Sheik than Bowser for pretty much one simple reason: back air. Bowser's aerials are bad, unsafe to space and unwieldy due to poor autocancels and Bowser's high jumpsquat. Back air actually gives DK the ability to contend with Sheik's air space, making her scared to space with aerials in neutral near DK. DK also has a better anti-air game with utilt. The fact that DK deals with Sheik's aerials so much better than Bowser makes him better in the matchup. DK is also scarier at the ledge and in general has more options to condition Sheik into situations where he can get grabs or strong hits. In general, Bowser is significantly more linear than DK in neutral which makes him easier to shut down and less scary as a result.

That isn't to say Bowser can't do alright against Sheik, just that DK does better for sure. And DK's greater depth of options in general is why he will always be a better character than Bowser.

 

[DunnoBro]

http://smashrecord.harukisb.net/players/5355

yeah, no.

I don't know what any of this means.

 

[BTVolta]

I don't know what any of this means.

Seems to be a database of Japanese players and that's Hikaru's page showing his wins, set counts, and placings.

 

[DunnoBro]

Seems to be a database of Japanese players and that's Hikaru's page showing his wins, set counts, and placings.

That doesn't really say much about dk vs bowser in the world meta, if so.

 

[Ffamran]

If I understand this right, "Dash Speed" on this spreadsheet should be everyone's initial dash speed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bO7oaM4HLH0xgq3CmGiRTUF2Ftm_00A6u-g7ow220g/pubhtml#

Yes, dash speed means "initial dash speed". I wished people didn't lump dash and run speed together and then have "initial dash speed" to indicate dash speed... Also wished people would refer dashing as dashing and not "foxtrotting". Ugh, redundant terms... Anyway, for those wondering, Doc's initial walk speed, walk acceleration, dash acceleration, and dash deceleration are the same as Mario's unlike his air speed, dash speed -- which is 1.312 as Doc and Mario's dash and run speeds are the same --, run speed, etc., are either affected by the 0.82 multiplier or are just different. Why Doc's been set-up like this instead of having normally entered numbers is beyond me. Would it really be that hard to just slap down 1.312 for his run speed?

Quick question (and I know this may not be the perfect place to ask it) - is there a list of initial dash speeds somewhere?

Kirby-specific: Kirby's dash speed was never changed when his run speed was upped to 1.57. It used to be that, like Doc, Ike, and Mario, his dash and run speed were the same at 1.5. It wouldn't have done much, but it would have still helped for Kirby to have a 1.57 or even higher dash speed along with his 1.57 run speed.

Oh, and everyone, ingrain Fox's 2.4 dash speed into your heads. Marvel at it and realize in shock that next fastest dash speed is only 2.05, Little Mac's (and formerly Captain Falcon's in Brawl). Also, Fox's dash speed has been steadily increasing in each game from 1.9 in Melee to Brawl's 2.1 to Smash 4's 2.4. At this rate, Smash 5 Fox could have a 3.0 dash speed making his Up Smash out of dash even stupider.

 

[L9999]

Oh, and everyone, ingrain Fox's 2.4 dash speed into your heads. Marvel at it and realize in shock that next fastest dash speed is only 2.05, Little Mac's (and formerly Captain Falcon's in Brawl). Also, Fox's dash speed has been steadily increasing in each game from 1.9 in Melee to Brawl's 2.1 to Smash 4's 2.4. At this rate, Smash 5 Fox could have a 3.0 dash speed making his Up Smash out of dash even stupider.

The reason why Fox can't suck. Well, and a lot a lot of raw power, good frame data and a (mostly) unpunishable chip damage option/approach enforcer.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The reason why Fox can't suck. Well, and a lot a lot of raw power, good frame data and a (mostly) unpunishable chip damage option/approach enforcer.

Yeah, to piggyback off of this.
Dash usmash out of shield drop is one of the dumbest and effective punish options and I'm appalled at how many Fox players would rather go for a silly nair/dair instead of straight up killing people for tapping your shield incorrectly.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Fox has a lot of dumb **** and the character is only going to get more ridiculous as time goes on. Pivot ftilt out of dash can combo into almost anything. At mid percents he can get 30% out of it and at ~90 hes going to kill with it. Oh and don't forget the ~80% combos, last hit of dair > footstool > nair lock > ftilt x2 > up air > footstool > nair lock > whatever you want is two thirds of your stock. On the split side hes the fastest falling character in the game while being one of the lightest. His recovery is also an issue, the startup is slow and predictable.. There are thousands of ways for Fox to be gimped just because of it. For instance, both Diddy and DK can get spike confirms if they catch his side b with dtilt. I have no clue where he is or where he is going to be on the tier list. He has every tool he needs to be no. 1 but everything needed to hold him back.

 

[BunbUn129]

Was in the lab and did some testing. I still have some things to test with other characters but here is a vid I made for some characters to avoid Meta Knight's death combos.

Something I should mention: the MK in this video wasn't performing the combo at the right percentages. For example, he hit Peach with a dash attack at 10%, which is still too early for the combo to work. The ladder combo is still a guaranteed KO on FD against Peach if she gets hit by a dash attack at 16-18%; at that percent window, any DI and SDI can be followed, which becomes easy to do with practice considering there are ~30 frames between each up air.

 

[dean.]

Tournies compiled for the weekend.

Spoiler: DI Another Day 2 (September 10th-11th) (Australia) (103 Entrants) (Category 1)

EDIT: correct any errors etc

Hi,
Zivhayr is Ryu/Ganondorf. Invisi went mostly Rosalina & Luma. Duon only went Little Mac in his set vs. Ignis which he lost, I don't know if you include that in your analysis. Don't think Ignis used much Corrin at all.

 

[Greward]

I don't know what any of this means.

He's basically saying that Hikaru has amazing results in Japan and he does play mostly DK. So it's not just DKWill (and Hikaru's results could easily be considered better atm).

 

[Yikarur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKJCSNlQPyQ&index=15&list=PLZKJ_ZoNrtq-N6D64vkvNL2Q9LSs0Vi0q

This is one of the best sets I've ever experienced. It's sad that people are not talking about Syndicate more. It was the biggest european smash 4 tournament so far!
This is the first Cloud I see utilizing shield drop upair like this. It's so strong..

 

[Luco]

Hi,
Zivhayr is Ryu/Ganondorf. Invisi went mostly Rosalina & Luma. Duon only went Little Mac in his set vs. Ignis which he lost, I don't know if you include that in your analysis. Don't think Ignis used much Corrin at all.

Ignis used Corrin in his set with me and won a game with her, but otherwise yeah this looks accurate. :D