Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jaguar360]

http://challonge.com/Tgl9smash4singles
http://twitch.tv/doghouseesports
TGL Monthly #9 Top 16 (97 entrants, FL)

1. PG | ESAM ()
2. Zinoto
3. MVG | dyr
4. True Blue
5. PPG | Wormynugget
5. Master Raven
7. PG | MVD ()
7. TGL | DJ Jack
9. EVB | Dath
9. Saj
9. ATR | Xaltis
9. ~MuteAce~
13. VS | NickRiddle
13. 8bitman
13. Streetshark
13. GXG | Duffo

 

[Radical Larry]

I'll have to derail this a little bit and have to state this about Diddy Kong. There are some instances where players seem to hit Diddy Kong's Up B and send him flying at an extreme velocity, and while this could be concluded as a glitch, this is not really a glitch that can't be understood. So I went through the labbing phases myself and found out that Diddy Kong will fly an absurd amount of velocity when hit with a highly powered electric move, such as Samus and Mega Man's Charge Shot or Ganondorf's Down Aerial. Samus's Charge Shot in particular is something that people should keep in the event Diddy goes under at around 40% to 60% damage, where he's guaranteed to die.

Now the crazy thing is, is that the attacks with the most velocity are the ones that are hardest to hit, e.g. Warlock Punch (reverse), Rest, KO Punch and various other ones. But there are two instances of odder glitches with Rocketbarrel, which are that KO Punch actually doesn't go through it like every other attack and that Mr. Game and Watch's Judge 8 will not freeze Diddy Kong at all!

With all of this in mind, Rocketbarrel Boost might be even more of a liability for Diddy Kong's recovery. If an opponent reads Diddy's recovery and hits right, Diddy might die very early in comparison to how he dies now.

Anyone else know about this or has more info about it? Currently looking around the threads and finding nothing about it.

(And understand, not everyone will automatically know about it.)

 

[Wintermelon43]

http://challonge.com/Tgl9smash4singles
http://twitch.tv/doghouseesports
TGL Monthly #9 Top 16 (97 entrants, FL)

1. PG | ESAM ()
2. Zinoto
3. MVG | dyr
4. True Blue
5. PPG | Wormynugget
5. Master Raven
7. PG | MVD ()
7. TGL | DJ Jack
9. EVB | Dath
9. Saj
9. ATR | Xaltis
9. ~MuteAce~
13. VS | NickRiddle
13. 8bitman
13. Streetshark
13. GXG | Duffo

......Esam played consistatnly? Biggest upset in this tournament kappa.

But for real, I'm surprised Esam beat Zinoto. When did Esam use Mewtwo though?

 

[TriTails]

I'll have to derail this a little bit and have to state this about Diddy Kong. There are some instances where players seem to hit Diddy Kong's Up B and send him flying at an extreme velocity, and while this could be concluded as a glitch, this is not really a glitch that can't be understood. So I went through the labbing phases myself and found out that Diddy Kong will fly an absurd amount of velocity when hit with a highly powered electric move, such as Samus and Mega Man's Charge Shot or Ganondorf's Down Aerial. Samus's Charge Shot in particular is something that people should keep in the event Diddy goes under at around 40% to 60% damage, where he's guaranteed to die.

Now the crazy thing is, is that the attacks with the most velocity are the ones that are hardest to hit, e.g. Warlock Punch (reverse), Rest, KO Punch and various other ones. But there are two instances of odder glitches with Rocketbarrel, which are that KO Punch actually doesn't go through it like every other attack and that Mr. Game and Watch's Judge 8 will not freeze Diddy Kong at all!

With all of this in mind, Rocketbarrel Boost might be even more of a liability for Diddy Kong's recovery. If an opponent reads Diddy's recovery and hits right, Diddy might die very early in comparison to how he dies now.

Anyone else know about this or has more info about it? Currently looking around the threads and finding nothing about it.

(And understand, not everyone will automatically know about it.)

Can confirm. A Lucina F-smash struck my Up-B and sent me flying at 800 miles/hour. Not because I was sent in tumble, Diddy just ****ing rockets out to nowhere.

Kinda similiar to what happens when Diddy hits a wall while recovering, he bounces back at high velocity. The difference is though, he is put in free fall, whereas getting hit does not.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'll have to derail this a little bit and have to state this about Diddy Kong. There are some instances where players seem to hit Diddy Kong's Up B and send him flying at an extreme velocity, and while this could be concluded as a glitch, this is not really a glitch that can't be understood. So I went through the labbing phases myself and found out that Diddy Kong will fly an absurd amount of velocity when hit with a highly powered electric move, such as Samus and Mega Man's Charge Shot or Ganondorf's Down Aerial. Samus's Charge Shot in particular is something that people should keep in the event Diddy goes under at around 40% to 60% damage, where he's guaranteed to die.

Now the crazy thing is, is that the attacks with the most velocity are the ones that are hardest to hit, e.g. Warlock Punch (reverse), Rest, KO Punch and various other ones. But there are two instances of odder glitches with Rocketbarrel, which are that KO Punch actually doesn't go through it like every other attack and that Mr. Game and Watch's Judge 8 will not freeze Diddy Kong at all!

With all of this in mind, Rocketbarrel Boost might be even more of a liability for Diddy Kong's recovery. If an opponent reads Diddy's recovery and hits right, Diddy might die very early in comparison to how he dies now.

Anyone else know about this or has more info about it? Currently looking around the threads and finding nothing about it.

(And understand, not everyone will automatically know about it.)

What about Pikachu's Thunder? If you were to hit the barrels not Diddy with it on ledge guard attempts?

 

[Radical Larry]

Can confirm. A Lucina F-smash struck my Up-B and sent me flying at 800 miles/hour. Not because I was sent in tumble, Diddy just ****ing rockets out to nowhere.

Kinda similiar to what happens when Diddy hits a wall while recovering, he bounces back at high velocity. The difference is though, he is put in free fall, whereas getting hit does not.

Actually, what it is is most likely the knockback output is being multiplied significantly (even more than Rage) as Diddy Kong is using his Up-B and when he's in motion. Again, test it with Samus's Charge Shot. It'll kill 20% to 30% earlier when Diddy Kong is in motion in Up-B. I was in a match with a Diddy player when I first noticed this; and it looked like he teleported since I had and he was around 90% (me being at over 110%).

As for the hitting the wall, it is indeed similar, but it's significantly weaker than what I've seen. And again, getting an 8 with Judge won't freeze Diddy Kong; that must be a weird glitch.

What about Pikachu's Thunder? If you were to hit the barrels not Diddy with it on ledge guard attempts?

The projectile of Thunder does hit Diddy's Rocketbarrel, but not at a significant velocity like Charge Shot (Samus's).

However, hitting Diddy during motion with Pikachu + Thunder will send him a bit of distance, but not as much as Samus's Charge Shot. So basically the conclusion is that the Rocketbarrel takes priority over Diddy when he's hit.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'll have to derail this a little bit and have to state this about Diddy Kong. There are some instances where players seem to hit Diddy Kong's Up B and send him flying at an extreme velocity, and while this could be concluded as a glitch, this is not really a glitch that can't be understood. So I went through the labbing phases myself and found out that Diddy Kong will fly an absurd amount of velocity when hit with a highly powered electric move, such as Samus and Mega Man's Charge Shot or Ganondorf's Down Aerial. Samus's Charge Shot in particular is something that people should keep in the event Diddy goes under at around 40% to 60% damage, where he's guaranteed to die.
Anyone else know about this or has more info about it? Currently looking around the threads and finding nothing about it.

I've known about this for some time, and yes, it's enormous fun. Shoot the charge shot into the stage and even if they tech the stage spike they fly like a 999% damage hit. They can fly off in funny animations too, like in the middle of a move. I may have some video somewhere.

 

[Fenny]

http://challonge.com/Tgl9smash4singles
http://twitch.tv/doghouseesports
TGL Monthly #9 Top 16 (97 entrants, FL)

1. PG | ESAM ()
2. Zinoto
3. MVG | dyr
4. True Blue
5. PPG | Wormynugget
5. Master Raven
7. PG | MVD ()
7. TGL | DJ Jack
9. EVB | Dath
9. Saj
9. ATR | Xaltis
9. ~MuteAce~
13. VS | NickRiddle
13. 8bitman
13. Streetshark
13. GXG | Duffo

RIP Saj, he came 9th but lost to ESAM and Zinoto lmao

 

[Radical Larry]

I've known about this for some time, and yes, it's enormous fun. Shoot the charge shot into the stage and even if they tech the stage spike they fly like a 999% damage hit. They can fly off in funny animations too, like in the middle of a move. I may have some video somewhere.

I think the more we investigate into this and the more light is shed on this, we might definitely find a point of real counterplay against Diddy Kong's recovery, which could improve MUs for characters here and there.

And I want to see that video.

 

[FeelMeUp]

No one's been paying it any mind, but ESAM has been pulling extremely good results lately. Guess he was right in saying his results dropped because of lack of good practice.

 

[sedrf]

I feel the meta will start to go for slower pace games.
You guys think so too?

 

[Radical Larry]

I might be coming up with a list of reliable moves to use on Diddy if he recovers with Rocketbarrel. This list will contain both horizontal methods of his travel (some players do it) and under-the-stage methods, too.

 

[C0rvus]

Edgeguards are an area that can still be pushed, but imo ledge coverage is more efficient in most matchups. Maybe that's me speaking as a Corrin player, but still. Take Fox as an example. With his Illusion, he can cover a lot of horizontal ground pretty damn fast, and it tends to go through a lot of moves. He can mix it up between going for stage or the ledge, and often times you will not be in a position to cover both options on reaction. What do you do? If you commit to a read and guess wrong, Fox gets back for free.

So, it's best to cover high recovery to the stage via positioning; then if he opts for the ledge, move into ledge coverage. It's a free mixup situation in your favor. Corrin has lots of meaty or long range moves that can cover ledge options, but is kind of lacking in terms of offstage gimping tools. So again, maybe it's my cognitive bias. I've seen Sheik gimped in a high level match before, so it's very much possible, but keeping with the theme of mitigating risk, ledge pressure > edgeguarding.

 

[Jaguar360]

......Esam played consistatnly? Biggest upset in this tournament kappa.

But for real, I'm surprised Esam beat Zinoto. When did Esam use Mewtwo though?

ESAM was using Mewtwo a bit in his earlier matches in bracket. On his channel, he says he wants to make Mewtwo his secondary, probably for Mario and Ness mainly. He didn't need him for the harder matches because the last few matches he had were all Diddies.

ESAM also beat Zinoto at Combo Breaker a few months ago btw.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ledge traps are generally better if your character has a busted ledgetrapping kit and the opponent has really bad off ledge options(blablabla Fox Diddy Sheik, same spiel as always) but edgeguards are better if you can secure a stock and/or your character isn't amazing at ledge trapping(MK, Pika, M2).

 

[NairWizard]

Ninj4pikachu
Advantage is the worst of the 3 gamestates in Smash 4. The priority should be:
Neutral>Disadvantage>Advantage..

The reality is that all of the gamestates are equal in importance, and the balance question of "who is a better character" is decided by a game of numbers. For example, Pikachu is a character with top 5 disadvantage, top 10-15 neutral (seriously, he's so good/underrated in neutral), but bottom-half-of-the-cast advantage and yet, despite ESAM's performance lately, he's obviously not as good as a character like Mario. It's not enough to say that neutral and disadvantage are more important than advantage, therefore Mario is worse than X character with better neutral and disadvantage, because that doesn't hold up in practice.

If disadvantage seems disproportionately strong to you relative to advantage, it's because you're deflating the numbers for advantage before doing the comparison. Don't compare the value of Sheik's Bouncing Fish in disadvantage to Mario's up-tilt chains. Try comparing it to Diddy's prenerf hoo-hah instead. Would you rather have the ability to escape strings with BF or the ability to kill characters at 80 from a d-throw or up-throw into up-air, and to accumulate 15-25% from a grab? The choice is obvious.

Neutral, disadvantage, and advantage are artificial lenses we impose on the game to be able to understand what's going on in a match and how to play a matchup--the concept that you should really care about when evaluating characters is risk-reward tradeoffs, i.e. the whole package.

 

[freeziebeatz]

r/smashbros voted Cloud Match Up Chart. Now with Miis!

 

[TDK]

Syndicate 2016 (320 Entrants):

1st: Mr. R
2nd: Rich Brown
3rd: iStudying
4th: IxisNagus
5th: Jbandrew
5th: Gluttonny
7th: Purple~H
7th: Griffith
9th: S1-14
9th: Greward
9th Sodrek
9th: quiK
13th: Afro Smash (!!)
13th: Cat (!!)
13th: LoNg0uw
13th: Light


total number of different characters: 16

This counts towards your rankings, Das Koopa ?

 

[Deleted member]

Syndicate 2016 (320 Entrants):

1st: Mr. R
2nd: Rich Brown
3rd: iStudying
4th: IxisNagus
5th: Jbandrew
5th: Gluttonny
7th: Purple~H
7th: Griffith
9th: S1-14
9th: Greward
9th Sodrek
9th: quiK
13th: Afro Smash (!!)
13th: Cat (!!)
13th: LoNg0uw
13th: Light


total number of different characters: 16

This counts towards your rankings, Das Koopa ?

Don't know why you're surprised at Afro Smash's placing. He's been putting in the work for a while now. One of the main people putting Samus on the map tbh. Same goes for Cat when it comes to Link.

Good **** to Gluttony too, especially in his matches against Mr. R. Even if it was a 3-0, all the games were very close considering how unfun the Sheik matchup is for Wario.

 

[Das Koopa]

yeah, Cat is either the 3rd or 4th best Link atm and Europe's best by far. Not a shock to see him or Afro do well

 

[FamilyTeam]

r/smashbros voted Cloud Match Up Chart. Now with Miis!

Cloud definitely does not go even with Marth while winning against Lucina, I'm sorry.
I legit want to ask the people who made this what exactly goes on in a game that makes Cloud win this matchup. I don't see it and Komorikiri who uses Lucina specifically against Cloud probably doesn't either.
I am also convinced Mario is either even or in Mario's favour.
Actually, why do I care anymore? Seriously, I need to take a cold, long shower and legit ask myself who do I still care to judge these things.
Didn't Reddit actually have Cloud in 1st place once in their tier lists, too?

 

[TDK]

Reddit is dumb

 

[Deleted member]

Why do people still post most things here from Reddit thinking it will generate any conducive discussion? Yes some good things can come from there but more often than not it ends up being a waste of time.

Besides that, I kinda wanna talk about .

The character has seen to have dropped off hard and doesn't seem to be very relevant in the meta anymore. Dude dropped 14 spots between the two 4BR lists, and I can honestly see why. His weaknesses are too heavily exploited by a good amount of characters (even ones considered to be low tier i.e. ), only way I see him being afloat is a decent counterpick (not a pocket, an actually well-trained secondary) to some higher tiers like , but why do that when you have arguably better options for all those characters?

With that said, what position do you guys think Luigi is in the meta right now?

 

[Aaron1997]

Mid South Championships Little Rock Ar. 85 entrants
Top 16

1. Angel Cortez
2. MJG
3. Brawlman1000
4. iiGGY
5. JaySon
5. DKwill
7. Cyan Can
7. Cheezeballer
9. Jaehbock
9. AeroLink
9. Makibaz
9. Konga
13. Wolfei
13. Sage
13. RedTux Tk
13. Elrox

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

r/smashbros voted Cloud Match Up Chart. Now with Miis!

Puff doesn't lose that badly! ...wait LOL PUFF INSTANT -3

 

[|RK|]

I think it's more of the latter.
When looking at Zenyou, the lab monster, you see that aside from some rage stuff(reverse Super Jump Punch, some of the dair/fludd stuff) and new kill setups(reverse fadeback nair dsmash, the 50/50s from Dair, etc) a lot of Mario's discovered setups and cool tricks are just that; tricks. Useless gimmicks.
I honestly can't see Mario going very far. The character is one that doesn't have the tools to deal with certain qualities like massive disjoints, camping, and being outzoned. Mario isn't a Sheik, Diddy, Fox, Rosa, or Sonic. The character just can't adapt to a lot of situations, which is why you see Ally trying to "impose his will" on other players instead of playing the matchups.
Just wait until people finally learn they should be fighting him like this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I've started looking at how Mario approaches certain MUs in order to understand how Kirby can. Because the conclusion I've come to (and many people may disagree) is that Kirby and Mario are two sides of a coin. Mario is the offense, and Kirby is the defense. The thing is this - it's harder to keep people out with poor range than it is to get in on them (especially with mobility as good as Mario's). They share some of the same bad MUs because of their range.

I also think that Mario is going to drop once they realize that many of the tactics that work on Kirby also work on Mario, in terms of running away.

All IMO, natch.

 

[my_T]

Would you rather have the ability to escape strings with BF or the ability to kill characters at 80 from a d-throw or up-throw into up-air, and to accumulate 15-25% from a grab? The choice is obvious.

Neutral, disadvantage, and advantage are just artificial lenses we impose on the game to be able to understand what's going on in a match and how to play a matchup, but the concept that you should really care about when evaluating characters is risk-reward tradeoffs, i.e. the whole package.

umm...DK and Bowser would like to have a word with you...they're kinda trash

These characters are a prime example of how neutral and disadvantage are more important. And yes, the choice is obvious, i'll take the bouncing fish

Neutral is clearly the most important. I think disadvantage and advantage are very close with disadvantage having a slight edge over advantage. If you look at all of the well established top tiers they are all at least average if not above average in both neutral and disadvantage.

As for pika, I've always felt that he is very underrated. He's too good at neutral and disadvantage for him to be as bad as some people say (mid-tier?!). Other than ESAM he has no other top level rep and ESAM is only like top 15 or top 20 as a player. And Sheik is basically a better Pikachu as she struggles and excels in the same areas and as a result Pikachu becomes less appealing. I wouldn't use his results as an argument for this neutral/disadvantage/advantage debate.

Also, It's not really his advantage state that's bad (not saying it's great); it's his lack of reliable and strong kill options. He can put on a lot of pressure once he gets in through various means. If his fsmash and thunder got a significant knockback buff he would be a lot more appealing. Even when Pika hits people with these moves it's not uncommon for people to survive even as late as 120% which is kinda sad. Despite all this, even with his mediocre results he's still considered pretty good (top 20) by many because his neutral and disadvantage is so good. If ESAM or some random player starts getting good consistent results im sure he will move up

 

[Y2Kay]

Mid South Championships Little Rock Ar. 85 entrants
Top 16

1. Angel Cortez
2. MJG
3. Brawlman1000
4. iiGGY
5. JaySon
5. DKwill
7. Cyan Can
7. Cheezeballer
9. Jaehbock
9. AeroLink
9. Makibaz
9. Konga
13. Wolfei
13. Sage
13. RedTux Tk
13. Elrox

Good Job BrawlMan1K and Wolfei

Memphis boyzz~

And why is DKwill and Angel in Arkansas? o_O

 

[NairWizard]

When people are talking about Mario's neutral they seem to conveniently forget that roll, spotdodge, airdodge, and shield are actual options in this game. Mario doesn't need to win neutral against characters who can outrange or camp him. His lack of burst mobility can be addressed by careful use of defensive mixups that get him into an uncomfortable range for the opponent. And his weight class, combo game, and disadvantage options/recovery/drift speed takes care of the rest, so that he wins or goes even in most matchups. I'd be very surprised if Mario actually turns out to lose any matchups, even Sonic or Corrin.

umm...DK and Bowser would like to have a word with you...they're kinda trash

These characters are a prime example of how neutral and disadvantage are more important. And yes, the choice is obvious, i'll take the bouncing fish.

"Not having Bouncing Fish"

is not the same as

"being tall and wide with bad ledge getups and alright airspeed while also lacking any sub-f6 aerial, and also not having Bouncing Fish"

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. When people talk about disadvantage vs. advantage or neutral, they make ridiculously uneven comparisons. You have to pick similarly weighted options, not "Bowser's n-air compared to Mewtwo's airdodge."

Of course you wouldn't take Bouncing Fish lol. Sheik would easily give up BF (at least in disadvantage; it has merits in advantage too, so the comparison gets trickier) for guaranteed kill confirms at 80 off of grab.

Also, It's not really his advantage state that's bad (not saying it's great); it's his lack of reliable and strong kill options. He can put on a lot of pressure once he gets in through various means. If his fsmash and thunder got a significant knockback buff he would be a lot more appealing. Even when Pika hits people with these moves it's not uncommon for people to survive even as late as 120% which is kinda sad. Despite all this, even with his mediocre results he's still considered pretty good (top 20) by many because his neutral and disadvantage is so good. If ESAM or some random player starts getting good consistent results im sure he will move up

Not being able to kill is a result of a bad advantage state. He also just doesn't have damaging combos past low %.

 

[Mr. Johan]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This has been known for a while by the Robins, but when a spikebox collides on a character currently in an attack or in the hitstun of an attack, Smash 4 defaults the spike's straight down trajectory into a horizontal/semispike angle. The angle becomes even steeper around ten percent until it caps off, and reverts back to the regular spikebox trajectory due to knockback growth. In Robin's case, it stops working about 5% before Checkmate starts killing, and can itself kill clean off the side at 70 on the ledge, without rage.

With max rage, it kills Lucario off the side of Smashville from the ledge at 38%. With Up and In DI. Same thing kills Sheik at 33.

This can done reliably in doubles - A Falcon Knee followed by a Megaman Hard Knuckle will produce the same effect - but I think Robin's the only character that can consistently force this in singles. Maybe Bayonetta can do it too with a Smash + Dair under Witch Time? Maybe other characters can do it too that I'm not thinking of?

 

[ARISTOS]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This has been known for a while by the Robins, but when a spikebox collides on a character currently in an attack or in the hitstun of an attack, Smash 4 defaults the spike's straight down trajectory into a horizontal/semispike angle. The angle becomes even steeper around ten percent until it caps off, and reverts back to the regular spikebox trajectory due to knockback growth. In Robin's case, it stops working about 5% before Checkmate does, and can kill clean off the side at 70 on the ledge, without rage.

With max rage, it kills Lucario off the side of Smashville from the ledge at 38%. With Up and In DI. Same thing kills Sheik at 33.

This can done reliably in doubles - A Falcon Knee followed by a Megaman Hard Knuckle will produce the same effect - but I think Robin's the only character that can consistently force this in singles. Maybe Bayonetta can do it too with a Smash + Dair under Witch Time? Maybe other characters can do it too that I'm not thinking of?

I don't have footage but I can confirm Bayo can do this as well.

Probably anyone who can force a long enough hitstun into a spike can do this- Maybe ZSS?

EDIT: Here you go

 

[my_T]

When people are talking about Mario's neutral they seem to conveniently forget that roll, spotdodge, airdodge, and shield are actual options in this game. Mario doesn't need to win neutral against characters who can outrange or camp him. His lack of burst mobility can be addressed by careful use of defensive mixups that get him into an uncomfortable range for the opponent. And his weight class, combo game, and disadvantage options/recovery/drift speed takes care of the rest, so that he wins or goes even in most matchups. I'd be very surprised if Mario actually turns out to lose any matchups, even Sonic or Corrin.



"Not having Bouncing Fish"

is not the same as

"being tall and wide with bad ledge getups and alright airspeed while also lacking any sub-f6 aerial, and also not having Bouncing Fish"

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. When people talk about disadvantage vs. advantage or neutral, they make ridiculously uneven comparisons. You have to pick similarly weighted options, not "Bowser's n-air compared to Mewtwo's airdodge," that's just ridiculous.

Of course you wouldn't take Bouncing Fish lol. Sheik would easily give up BF (at least in disadvantage; it has merits in advantage too, so the comparison gets trickier) for guaranteed kill confirms at 80 off of grab.



Not being able to kill is a result of a bad advantage state. He also just doesn't have damaging combos past low %.

SMH i think you missed the point of my post

If you want to compare which states are better look at the DK vs Sheik match-up. This match-up pretty much sums it up...neutral>disadvantage>advantage

 

[Baby_Sneak]

SMH i think you missed the point of my post

If you want to compare which states are better look at the DK vs Sheik match-up. This match-up pretty much sums it up...neutral>disadvantage>advantage

Sheik: amazing in neutral, disadvantage, and solid in advantage. Overall: very all-around.

DK: decent in neutral, garbage in disadvantage, and ridiculous in advantage. Overall: polarizing

Gee, I wonder why.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

umm...DK and Bowser would like to have a word with you...they're kinda trash

These characters are a prime example of how neutral and disadvantage are more important. And yes, the choice is obvious, i'll take the bouncing fish

Neutral is clearly the most important. I think disadvantage and advantage are very close with disadvantage having a slight edge over advantage. If you look at all of the well established top tiers they are all at least average if not above average in both neutral and disadvantage.

As for pika, I've always felt that he is very underrated. He's too good at neutral and disadvantage for him to be as bad as some people say (mid-tier?!). Other than ESAM he has no other top level rep and ESAM is only like top 15 or top 20 as a player. And Sheik is basically a better Pikachu as she struggles and excels in the same areas and as a result Pikachu becomes less appealing. I wouldn't use his results as an argument for this neutral/disadvantage/advantage debate.

Also, It's not really his advantage state that's bad (not saying it's great); it's his lack of reliable and strong kill options. He can put on a lot of pressure once he gets in through various means. If his fsmash and thunder got a significant knockback buff he would be a lot more appealing. Even when Pika hits people with these moves it's not uncommon for people to survive even as late as 120% which is kinda sad. Despite all this, even with his mediocre results he's still considered pretty good (top 20) by many because his neutral and disadvantage is so good. If ESAM or some random player starts getting good consistent results im sure he will move up

Pika has more kill options than thunder and forward smash. Other options for cleaning up stocks are ff fair > upsmash (true combo w/rage), and jab locks from dair and down tilt into charged smashs. With the new discovery of the untechable tumble state pika's plethora of jab lock options are no joke.

Pika has a great advantage state, though it's fairly untapped compared to the extent other top tiers are explored. With only one real representative esam 's weaknesses become pikachu's weaknesses. I would love to see more people reping the mouse and finding out what somone other than esam thinks about him or how somone else plays him, because at the moment every pika is inferior to esam. So far nobudy even close to esam's skill attempts to main the mouse and see what might be.

 

[LRodC]

You know a character's keepaway game is busted when freaking Fox has a hard time making it through dtilt / fair / shadow ball.

Considering none of these moves were ever buffed significantly (fair the most, being -4 landing lag and -1 frame), I don't think Mewtwo was ever as bad as people originally thought he was.

 

[my_T]

Sheik: amazing in neutral, disadvantage, and solid in advantage. Overall: very all-around.

DK: decent in neutral, garbage in disadvantage, and ridiculous in advantage. Overall: polarizing

Gee, I wonder why.

Relatively, DK's neutral is ass

This match-up isn't polarizing, DK's success in this match-up comes down to how many mistakes the Sheik player makes. Sheik wrecks DK in neutral and disadvantage so DK's advantage state rarely comes into play. Also, her disadvantage is quite good so it's difficult for DK to put her in disadvantage outside of juggles.

This is pretty much how top level Sheik vs DK works; hence why Larry doesn't really opt for DK when he runs into Sheik players

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly Mewtwo didn't need the buffs, he just needed the playerbase that the buffs brought in. When you only have 10 people labbing things for him and maybe two people playing him he doesn't look that good. Then all of a sudden you get huge mobility buffs. Hundreds of people are labbing things, a top player picks him up and uses those things to win a tournament, and a plethora of high level players start popping up afterwards. Now you have this top tier monster who is only threatened by ~3 characters. The mobility buffs helped of course but the biggest buff was to his playerbase.

 

[DunnoBro]

Uhh no the mobility buff was the bigger thing lol

Abadango had a m2 pre-patch. He just didn't use him much until he became by far the greatest character in his arsenal.

And the biggest m2 discovery was likely nair > footstool > disable which was known pre-mobility buff.

I agree he was overbuffed. The main issue likely stems from them giving ridic hitboxes and reward to mitigate his lack of mobility, then they just said "**** it" and gave him sheik's speed.

 

[my_T]

Ninj4pikachu

Im aware that he has more kill options. I think the biggest issue is how weak his kill moves are. It's just kinda laughable when he does get an up/down throw thunder or an fsmash well past 100% and the opponent still lives. A knockback buff by like 15% on both of these moves could do wonders for him but at least he still has the un-techable stuff; that's a start i suppose

 

[ARISTOS]

Nah the mobility buffs were huge.

Before once you got in on Mewtwo you could pretty much stay there; his defensive options were terrible and he couldn't run away. That's why Mario and Fox used to eat him alive.

Now he can run away to make up for it, and can much more easily position himself to deal with oncoming attackers.

Mewtwo wasn't terrible before but he was still a pretty mediocre character.