Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LRodC]

r/smashbros Voted Diddy Kong Match Up Chart
http://imgur.com/Y514h0c

I'm in no way trying to vouch for Jigglypuff winning, but did they even attempt to lab this match up with her, or did they say "lol Jiggs is bad" and just stick her at 70? Because it seems like that's what they did.

 

[freeziebeatz]

I'm in no way trying to vouch for Jigglypuff winning, but did they even attempt to lab this match up with her, or did they say "lol Jiggs is bad" and just stick her at 70? Because it seems like that's what they did.

This is most likely what they did. It was a 1 vote difference though between 65-35 and 70-30 at least.

 

[TDK]

Update on Umebura 25:

Ke-ya uses and Jill uses

 

[FeelMeUp]

It seems like Jiggs really can't do anything in the MU when I play it. Banana-less Diddy doing reaction Fairs/Bairs OoS and killing her at 90 over and over doesn't really allow for much counterplay. Hell, even Diddy trading with her for 70% of the game leaves him at a massive advantage.

 

[Drifting]

1st Kamemushi
2nd Abadango
3rd Kirihara
4th VoiD
5th Umeki
5th taranito
7th Nietono
7th Shogun
9th KEN
9th Keya
9th Brood
9th Earth
13th Jill
13th Some
13th Lea
13th Gakuto

AHH I always knew substitute doll was a top tier, look at his results!

Jokes aside, Isn't it known by now Sheik beats Rosa? she can just fair luma foreverand then combo rosa for a while. Rinse-Repeat.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When Sheiks finally move past the stigma of runaway style play and are willing to do what it takes to win as true competitors, we will see how dominant she truly is as a character.

But as of right now...Sheik community...

You are all a bunch of *******.

 

[FeelMeUp]

When Sheiks finally move past the stigma of runaway style play and are willing to do what it takes to win as true competitors, we will see how dominant she truly is as a character.

But as of right now...Sheik community...

You are all a bunch of *******.

Biiiiiiiiiig agree here.
More than 60-70% of the roster has no answers to needle camping, and this single projectile that does 1-11% almost singlehandedly forces every character in the game to play at her pace.

And on that subject, seems like Trela has awakened to the truth.
https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/co...d7ekske?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true

 

[Emblem Lord]

Can I ask a question?

Why do you people constantly bring Ryu up? Ryu players don't even talk about him much in this thread. I know I don't.

Why you all so obsessed about a char that at BEST goes even with top tiers?

Talk about relevant **** plz thnx.

 

[Ethan7]

Can I ask a question?

Why do you people constantly bring Ryu up? Ryu players don't even talk about him much in this thread. I know I don't.

Why you all so obsessed about a char that at BEST goes even with top tiers?

Talk about relevant **** plz thnx.

Can I ask a question?

When was the last time someone said Ryu was top tier here? When was the last time Ryu was even brought up here? Are you saying we should only talk about top tier characters here?

I don't understand what you are so frustrated about.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seems like he is brought up once every other page. Maybe I have selective vision.

Anyways to answer your question, truthfully the majority of the discussion should probably be about chars that shape the meta or are anti meta.

You know...stuff that matters.

Not charizard. Don't even think about it.

Also...lol@frustrated. That is amusing.

 

[Drifting]

Seems like he is brought up once every other page. Maybe I have selective vision.

Anyways to answer your question, truthfully the majority of the discussion should probably be about chars that shape the meta or are anti meta.

You know...stuff that matters.

Not charizard. Don't even think about it.

Also...lol@frustrated. That is amusing.

What's wrong with charizard? He's been buffed quite a bit, and he's not bad right now. to be honest, It makes me question how much you actually care about the integrity and playerbase of the game, and rather just on everybody playing top high tiers :/

Sorry for mini rant (Ryu is high tier btw, around MK tbh)

 

[FeelMeUp]

Can I ask a question?

Why do you people constantly bring Ryu up? Ryu players don't even talk about him much in this thread. I know I don't.

Why you all so obsessed about a char that at BEST goes even with top tiers?

Talk about relevant **** plz thnx.

Because no one had posted it and it's important to take note when a character's best representative/most enthusiastic user says that they don't have the potential to be anywhere near as good as people think.
It's the equivalent of ESAM suddenly saying he was wrong. Except less, yknow, surprising.

OT: What's the basis for people constantly saying Mario is top 5? I personally feel he's closer to #8 and dropping, but from what I see the supporters of "haha Mario top 3" always seem to be the ones that ignore his 55:45(or worse) matchups like:
Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Corrin, Marth, Mewtwo, Rosalina, Luigi, Peach, Sonic, and probably more I'm missing.

 

[Ethan7]

OT: What's the basis for people constantly saying Mario is top 5? I personally feel he's closer to #8 and dropping, but in my opinion the supporters of "haha Mario top 3" always seem to be the ones that ignore his 55:45(or worse) matchups like:
Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Corrin, Marth, Mewtwo, Rosalina, Luigi, Peach, Sonic, and probably more I'm missing.

Top players say he beats both Sheik and Diddy. I'm sure you don't believe that, though. Also, EVO, CEO and GOML of 2016 were won by Marios. It is not rare to find a Mario in top 16 of a big tournament. But you also don't give results much weight either, so I see why you think Mario is definitely not top 5, but I disagree with that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What's wrong with charizard? He's been buffed quite a bit, and he's not bad right now. to be honest, It makes me question how much you actually care about the integrity and playerbase of the game, and rather just on everybody playing top high tiers :/

Sorry for mini rant (Ryu is high tier btw, around MK tbh)

Charizard is overrated AND not good fam.

Prove me wrong.

 

[C0rvus]

So... what is the meta right now? Sheik and Diddy seem to be a half clip above the rest, probably because they are low risk characters with dominant neutral. They are the best tools for a player who is serious about winning. But who else is doing well? There's a mix, and that's a good thing. Before it used to be pretty easy to point out desirable meta traits, but since patches have reduced the amount of grab kill combos among top tiers, things have gotten... muddier?

You could argue neutral is most important game state, but Cloud isn't taking big events, and characters like Mario are. Perhaps disadvantage is most essential to survival in bracket? Bayonetta has a pretty good track record despite her lousy Diddy matchup and decidedly average neutral. Her disadvantage might be the best in the game, between her basically ungimpable recovery, Bat Within and Dive Kick. But she's not on top... yet. She very well may get there imo.

Mario may not be top 5 or whatever but he won EVO and is clearly a good character. His disadvantage is also quite good. He is hard to combo because of his two combo breakers (nair and up special) and his floaty nature. His neutral is pretty good and so is his advantage. His lack of disjoint may be his downfall, but his risk-reward is quite good. He will never fall off much.

Being able to mitigate risk as much as possible is what matters in this meta. Everyone says "Smash 4 is so inconsistent" and it seems like top players are able to fall prey to "randoms". Blame that on whatever you want. Being safe is nice, but you're going to get hit, and many characters can make that hit count.

Safety is king; neutral and disadvantage are most important for top level play. But characters like Fox, Cloud, Bayonetta, and Ryu who lack in one, tend to make up for it with reward. Idk if you'd call them anti-meta but they play a different game than Sheik and Diddy, and that works for many players. But it isn't winning majors.

...Anyway that's my take on things. Feel free to tell me why I'm wrong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^^

You are not wrong.

Also I think Mewtwo is a neutral king and can do alot of work just hanging back with dtilt, command grabs, shadow balls and spaced fairs.

But peeps wanna go IN wit dem UNSAFE NAIRS!!!!!

 

[Nobie]

I got the chance to play some friendlies the other day after a long time of not really doing so, and it made me realize how much I enjoy the neutral game. As someone who uses Mewtwo and Mega Man (Umebura 25 finals hype), maybe I should have realized this sooner.

I think what hammered the point home for me was that my opponent had clearly a ton of practice into combos, and was more mechanically adept than my dumb fingers, that I could still win a good amount of the matches by just out-thinking the opponent at multiple turns in the neutral. Maybe that's why I get a tad annoyed when I see people talk about the neutral game like it's something they want over as fast as possible (not here, but in other boards, Twitch chat, etc.).

Re: Mewtwo nair, I've said it before but that move only really works when you've got the opponent pinned down or afraid to press buttons. In fact, I bet you could roughly gauge the condition of your opponent's mindset by seeing how they react to nairs.

I'd also say how good a character is at navigating disadvantaged states is crucial to the meta. I'm not just thinking about flip jump and bouncing fish or whatever, but also those characters who rely on a strong advantage game above all else, like Dedede and Bowser Jr. They're not exactly tearing it up, and I think if characters had a harder time getting out of stuff they'd be a bit higher up on tier lists.

 

[DunnoBro]

OT: What's the basis for people constantly saying Mario is top 5? I personally feel he's closer to #8 and dropping, but from what I see the supporters of "haha Mario top 3" always seem to be the ones that ignore his 55:45(or worse) matchups like:
Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Corrin, Marth, Mewtwo, Rosalina, Luigi, Peach, Sonic, and probably more I'm missing.

Well, in addition to his results, Mario also holds the #1 spot on more PRs than any other character. For mostly average/weak areas though, so it could just speak for his accessibility rather than viability.

I don't really think much on Mario's placing, but the most notable Mario's (Ally, and Anti) remarking about how little they practice mario might suggest his potential has yet to be truly unlocked. Or, that he's so simple he doesn't really have potential to unlock.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Well, in addition to his results, Mario also holds the #1 spot on more PRs than any other character. For mostly average/weak areas though, so it could just speak for his accessibility rather than viability.

I don't really think much on Mario's placing, but the most notable Mario's (Ally, and Anti) remarking about how little they practice mario might suggest his potential has yet to be truly unlocked. Or, that he's so simple he doesn't really have potential to unlock.

I think it's more of the latter.
When looking at Zenyou, the lab monster, you see that aside from some rage stuff(reverse Super Jump Punch, some of the dair/fludd stuff) and new kill setups(reverse fadeback nair dsmash, the 50/50s from Dair, etc) a lot of Mario's discovered setups and cool tricks are just that; tricks. Useless gimmicks.
I honestly can't see Mario going very far. The character is one that doesn't have the tools to deal with certain qualities like massive disjoints, camping, and being outzoned. Mario isn't a Sheik, Diddy, Fox, Rosa, or Sonic. The character just can't adapt to a lot of situations, which is why you see Ally trying to "impose his will" on other players instead of playing the matchups.
Just wait until people finally learn they should be fighting him like this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Ethan7]

I think it's more of the latter.
When looking at Zenyou, the lab monster, you see that aside from some rage stuff(reverse Super Jump Punch, some of the dair/fludd stuff) and new kill setups(reverse fadeback nair dsmash, the 50/50s from Dair, etc) a lot of Mario's discovered setups and cool tricks are just that; tricks. Useless gimmicks.
I honestly can't see Mario going very far. The character is one that doesn't have the tools to deal with certain qualities like massive disjoints, camping, and being outzoned. Mario isn't a Sheik, Diddy, Fox, Rosa, or Sonic. The character just can't adapt to a lot of situations, which is why you see Ally trying to "impose his will" on other players instead of playing the matchups.
Just wait until people finally learn they should be fighting him like this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That game looks like a pretty low level match if you ask me. Better Marios wouldn't just run in and take damage. You know, find openings, space your attacks, adapt, or whatever.

The more I look at this clip the more of a joke I think it is.

 

[Bobert]

I think it's more of the latter.
When looking at Zenyou, the lab monster, you see that aside from some rage stuff(reverse Super Jump Punch, some of the dair/fludd stuff) and new kill setups(reverse fadeback nair dsmash, the 50/50s from Dair, etc) a lot of Mario's discovered setups and cool tricks are just that; tricks. Useless gimmicks.
I honestly can't see Mario going very far. The character is one that doesn't have the tools to deal with certain qualities like massive disjoints, camping, and being outzoned. Mario isn't a Sheik, Diddy, Fox, Rosa, or Sonic. The character just can't adapt to a lot of situations, which is why you see Ally trying to "impose his will" on other players instead of playing the matchups.
Just wait until people finally learn they should be fighting him like this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

...Is that For Glory? That Mario wasn't even playing well. As a matter of fact, he was extremely impatient and dropped shield early on side-b multiple times. That match doesn't really support your argument.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think it's more of the latter.
When looking at Zenyou, the lab monster, you see that aside from some rage stuff(reverse Super Jump Punch, some of the dair/fludd stuff) and new kill setups(reverse fadeback nair dsmash, the 50/50s from Dair, etc) a lot of Mario's discovered setups and cool tricks are just that; tricks. Useless gimmicks.
I honestly can't see Mario going very far. The character is one that doesn't have the tools to deal with certain qualities like massive disjoints, camping, and being outzoned. Mario isn't a Sheik, Diddy, Fox, Rosa, or Sonic. The character just can't adapt to a lot of situations, which is why you see Ally trying to "impose his will" on other players instead of playing the matchups.

Hmm, you say that but typically mario's worst MUs are the ones his reward is neutered, not the ones he struggles in neutral. Most chars beat him in neutral.

Just wait until people finally learn they should be fighting him like this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

While the point may still be valid, that mario did literally nothing but dash grab/shield to approach. (Only used aerials when landing out of being hit) Seems like a very poor example of counterplay to me, one that would be as valid vs diddy, sheik, or any other character if that's all they did.

 

[FeelMeUp]

That game looks like a pretty low level match if you ask me. Better Marios wouldn't just run in and take damage. You know, find openings, space your attacks, adapt, or whatever.

The more I look at this clip the more of a joke I think it is.

Yeah, you're not understanding. There's nothing Mario can actually do about being outspaced.
He's outranged by most of the good characters and doesn't have the forward approach options most good characters have to safely poke and/or start combos. His approaches are......shop nair.....rar bair...run up shield and dash grab?
No dash attack, no good fair, no good safe rising aerials, no specials to help with approaching, etc.
Like I've been saying for 2 threads now. Play to not get grabbed and Mario can't win the game. His success is directly proportionate how often you get your defensive options hard read or how scared you get, which is why Anti is one of the best Mario players in the business. He's absolutely amazing at reading defensive habits and capitalizing on them.
Watch an Ally match and look at the average amount of grabs he goes for every game. The number will astound you.

 

[Illusion.]

Unknown tourney in McAllen, TX that hit 92 entrants:

Spoiler: South Texas Gamer's Expo

1st. SU | BC
2nd. Magik
3rd. Fizz
4th. Culix
5th. BluStriker
5th. Cali
7th. Red9
7th. iFox
9th. Walter
9th. J-Boss
9th. Gaarc
9th. Kamen
13th. Isidro/Ividal
13th. JLZ
13th. AG | Fish
13th. Sergio

"Bracket:" http://i.imgur.com/U2NVtfz.jpg
(I had to ask for the blanks)

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Yeah, you're not understanding. There's nothing Mario can actually do about being outspaced.
He's outranged by most of the good characters and doesn't have the forward approach options most good characters have to safely poke and/or start combos. His approaches are......shop nair.....rar bair...run up shield and dash grab?
No dash attack, no good fair, no good safe rising aerials, no specials to help with approaching, etc.
Like I've been saying for 2 threads now. Play to not get grabbed and Mario can't win the game. His success is directly proportionate how often you get your defensive options hard read or how scared you get, which is why Anti is one of the best Mario players in the business. He's absolutely amazing at reading defensive habits and capitalizing on them.
Watch an Ally match and look at the average amount of grabs he goes for every game. The number will astound you.[/QUOTE

All you have stated here just implys Mario's neutral is ass, not news. What you don't seem to understand is that once Mario is in advantage he can force your options and punish accordingly. You are also grossly oversimplifying "just don't get grabed". I don't think you have an understanding of how strong grab is in smash 4.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah, you're not understanding. There's nothing Mario can actually do about being outspaced.

Actually there is. Spaced aerials mean weaving away, i.e fludd will push back extra far.

I double 2-stocked remzi at smashcon and was about to do the same to Marss until i sd'd twice in a row. (was at 50% on my first stock, he was 120% on his last. Kept trying to punish his regrabs with sjp but i failed to breverse)

That mu is largely fireballs and fludd until she loses the ground to space said aerials. Same with any short hop happy mu.

Fludd also pushes harder during special animations and vs floaties. Dark wizzy iirc was the one who changed Dabuz's mind on the Rosa MU. If you try to play too safe, mario can claim stage control with fludd.

I'm not saying fludd is a direct counter to spaced aerials but if you dedicate yourself entirely to just doing that then mario can just fludd you off and you keep losing that ability until you approach.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ninj4pikachu Thank you for reiterating what I have been stating this entire time.
Advantage is the worst of the 3 gamestates in Smash 4. The priority should be:
Neutral>Disadvantage>Advantage.
A character with a decent disadvantage, good advantage(combo wise. his ledge trapping isn't amazing and his edgeguarding sucks), and a trash neutral(for a top tier, obviously) cannot be top 5.
All I'm arguing is that Mario is an overrated character that won't see much growth. Not that he's not good, lmfao.

 

[NegaNixx]

I think you guys are latching on too much to the fact that AnTi's video featured a ZSS.

ZSS's neutral largely incorporates spaced Aerials to poke and get things started. We've established that really it's not all that great.

Now what if say... A Marth incorporates this? Spaced aerials are still threatening. But can be best by FLUDD as DunnoBro said. But D-Tilt? Or Pivot F-Tilt? Jab? On top of having a reliable way to beat shield (Grab as opposed to ZSS').

That would also account for Corrin, Mewtwo etc. Characters with ground games that function on all facets as well as those with good Aerial games.

How's Mario getting in reliably on a ***** Mewtwo?

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you guys are latching on too much to the fact that AnTi's video featured a ZSS.

ZSS's neutral largely incorporates spaced Aerials to poke and get things started. We've established that really it's not all that great.

Now what if say... A Marth incorporates this? Spaced aerials are still threatening. But can be best by FLUDD as DunnoBro said. But D-Tilt? Or Pivot F-Tilt? Jab? On top of having a reliable way to beat shield (Grab as opposed to ZSS').

That would also account for Corrin, Mewtwo etc. Characters with ground games that function on all facets as well as those with good Aerial games.

How's Mario getting in reliably on a ***** Mewtwo?

Fludd still pushes tilts, they can just shield sooner. A grounded floaty gets pushed almost as hard as a short hopping fast faller. Fireball helps too.

And mario gets in fine on mewtwo, he's big and easily cornered due to his poor roll. The issue with that mu is mario's reward is neutered since mewtwo's disadvantage is soooo insane. Mario goes from true 30%+ combos to hopefully 11% if the mewtwo doesn't get him with fair.

Mario has a harder time getting in on sheik and megaman, but his reward is insane there so it's fine.

If you watch ally vs abadongo you'll see ally wins neutral the majority of the time. But abadando gets almost as much from ally trying to get his landings as ally does damage.

 

[my_T]

Hmm, you say that but typically mario's worst MUs are the ones his reward is neutered, not the ones he struggles in neutral. Most chars beat him in neutral.



While the point may still be valid, that mario did literally nothing but dash grab/shield to approach. (Only used aerials when landing out of being hit) Seems like a very poor example of counterplay to me, one that would be as valid vs diddy, sheik, or any other character if that's all they did.

What about characters that keep him out. DK and Bowser give him a pretty hard time. Mario wrecks both of them HARD when he gets in, but there in lies the problem. How does he safely get in? DK's down/up tilt, and Bowsers jab/grab range do dumb work in the mario match-up because of Marios lack of range/disjoint and his average ground speed. You pretty much have to wait for the opponent to **** up to get anything going, thus allowing them to control the match more or less.

I think both of these characters as well as characters like Marcina, Corrin, and Rosa emphasize Marios weakness of getting walled out

Thoughts?

 

[DunnoBro]

What about characters that keep him out. DK and Bowser give him a pretty hard time. Mario wrecks both of them HARD when he gets in, but there in lies the problem. How does he safely get in? DK's down/up tilt, and Bowsers jab/grab range do dumb work in the mario match-up because of Marios lack of range/disjoint and his average ground speed. You pretty much have to wait for the opponent to **** up to get anything going, thus allowing them to control the match more or less.

I think both of these characters as well as characters like Marcina, Corrin, and Rosa emphasize Marios weakness of getting walled out

Thoughts?

Same thing. The issue isn't that they keep him out so much as his reward is neutered. Due to the weight dependent dthrow, dk's upb, bowser's dair, and their weight, mario's general combo/frame trap game is severely neutered. Not to mention, they get waaaay more off grab than him and I'd say the bigger issue is mario can't keep them out than the converse.

Their grab game is just better, and mario is still forced to play at that range. That's a big issue. (Landing vs bowser's stressful too. And grabbing the ledge is almost as bad as getting grabbed)

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

What about characters that keep him out. DK and Bowser give him a pretty hard time. Mario wrecks both of them HARD when he gets in, but there in lies the problem. How does he safely get in? DK's down/up tilt, and Bowsers jab/grab range do dumb work in the mario match-up because of Marios lack of range/disjoint and his average ground speed. You pretty much have to wait for the opponent to **** up to get anything going, thus allowing them to control the match more or less.

I think both of these characters as well as characters like Marcina, Corrin, and Rosa emphasize Marios weakness of getting walled out

Thoughts?

As someone who used to main dk, I hate the Mario MU, your right that we defiantly out space him. The problem lies in his fire balls. They can lead into grabs and falling nairs that combo into more crap and before you know it were at death percent from a single fireball. His frame data is annoying as well, I hate his frame 4 Nair. It's also not hard to land down throw to fair on our rather large hurt boxes. The fireball is what breaks neutral and really allows Mario to get in.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nair is frame 3. And yea, dk's slow jab means fireball actually set up for grabs unlike most mus. Bowser's a harder mu imo since DK's ledge coverage is worse. With mario's airspeed, retreating to ledge is almost always possible. But bowser's ledge coverage is insane so it's not that appealing.

 

[my_T]

Same thing. The issue isn't that they keep him out so much as his reward is neutered. Due to the weight dependent dthrow, dk's upb, bowser's dair, and their weight, mario's general combo/frame trap game is severely neutered. Not to mention, they get waaaay more off grab than him and I'd say the bigger issue is mario can't keep them out than the converse.

Their grab game is just better, and mario is still forced to play at that range. That's a big issue. (Landing vs bowser's stressful too. And grabbing the ledge is almost as bad as getting grabbed)

I gotta disagree here

Aside from there weight enabling them to just live longer than most, I don't see how his reward is neutered. Marios strongest state is advantage where DK/Bowsers weakest state is disadvantage. Usmash, cape, flood, and his faster frame data allows him to do a ton of damage, maintain advantage, or just close out stocks against these characters.

DK vs Mario:

Once mario gets in Usmash ****s on all of DK's landing options. Using up B to break combos can possibly lose him a stock because of cape and flood; i've seen this happen even at top level. The utility of up B as a combo breaker is also stage dependent. Even on hit it's hard land even safely without platforms to help him; if you read it it's pretty much a guaranteed hard punish or total loss of stage control for retreating to the ledge. Once you have him at the ledge you can get a lot because of his trash ledge options. While DK is getting combo'd by Mario his only get-off-me options is up B and bair to some extent (if his back is turned).

DK and Bowser will take a ton of damage most times that Mario gets in so i think there reward is pretty even or slightly in the heavies favor but it's definitely not neutered.

It may seem like he doesn't get a lot because they do such a good job at keeping him out. Also, I agree that Mario also somewhat struggles to keep them out as well and this a huge factor in the match-up which pretty much circles back to his lack of range and disjoint being a weakness

 

[DunnoBro]

I gotta disagree here

Aside from there weight enabling them to just live longer than most, I don't see how his reward is neutered. Marios strongest state is advantage where DK/Bowsers weakest state is disadvantage. Usmash, cape, flood, and his faster frame data allows him to do a ton of damage, maintain advantage, or just close out stocks against these characters.

Hmm, it's not as big a deal vs dk except at low percents. (pre-30%) But not having grab combos to break that first 30 sucks (Uthrow combos dont work on either of them)

Vs bowser, him being floaty helps a lot. Though the big issue isn't doing damage to bowser, it's killing him.

Observe how many grabs ally gets vs lordmix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSshel1fPs

It's about 3-1, mario deeefinitely gets in better than bowser. But bowser only needs to get in a few times, or just once at the right percent after taking some trades (which will always be favorable vs mario who has no killing aerials)

Ally largely relies on abusing his poor recovery and ledge get-up options. Just throwing him offstage.

 

[Y2Kay]

^^^^^

You are not wrong.

Also I think Mewtwo is a neutral king and can do alot of work just hanging back with dtilt, command grabs, shadow balls and spaced fairs.

But peeps wanna go IN wit dem UNSAFE NAIRS!!!!!

BRUUHHHH


Everytime I see someone approach with Neutral Air I want to stab myself with the nearest pointy object.

Down Tilt, Forward Air, and shadow ball can literally shut down neutrals but you over here trying to land a foot stool combo? Boy, sit down!

These Newtwos are killing me bruh . . .

 

[DunnoBro]

Nair is a legitimate cross-up approach though, it isn't unsafe it can just be stuffed. Every move can. As long as mewtwo mixes it up (charging shadowball / stuffing) to make them scared to try stuffing, it's a perfectly optimal approach.

M2 might have the overall safest kit, honestly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You know a character's keepaway game is busted when freaking Fox has a hard time making it through dtilt / fair / shadow ball.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not certain, but it sounds like "gimmick" is being used to mean "things that aren't guaranteed or aren't super safe/overwhelming." Which is kind of weird, because being able to exploit people's mental weaknesses with a nimble character that does well in a lot of categories doesn't seem terribly gimmicky to me.

Also it's not like Fox has a harder time getting through dtilt/fair/shadow ball than any other high/top tier neutral, it's just that his price for NOT making it through is much more severe than vs. someone like Sheik. Against, Sheik, he gets comboed some and then that's that. Against Mewtwo, he risks dying hard, especially given how light and fastfally Fox is.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hello, people!
This is a bit of an addendum to my massive post about Lucina in the 40th page of the thread.
I'm here to say that I was finally able to muster the time to record the WebMs of Lucina being able to hit people on Battlefield's platforms, and here they are:

Something worthy of note is that both Marth and Lucina can hit their opponent in the platform much more consistently if the enemy is laying down.

Yes, the Lucina guide is being worked on, don't worry! I think I might post it someday later this week.