Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fenny]

Another tier list with Greninja over Pit... And Marth and Corrin a tier ahead of him assuming Zero didn't just forget them. Seriously, why?

Because they're better...?

 

[blackghost]

its so obvious that shulk is the character ero actually wants to play. but he never will. he only plays top tiers in each game. not attacking him its just an obvious truth. the guys has made multiple shulk videos and plays him on stream a lot.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/770213628033236993

Dabuz's Match-up Chart for Olimar

@Dabuz I would like a explaintion on Pac vs Olimar beucase every Pac I've talked to on the Discord thinks Pac beats Olimar. Even Results point to that. Zage is like 20-1 vs Logic's Olimar in Tourney set's.

 

[bc1910]

Another tier list with Greninja over Pit... And Marth and Corrin a tier ahead of him assuming Zero didn't just forget them. Seriously, why?

A quick gander at Koopa's rankings will show you that all three are comfortably above Pit in results.

Marth and Corrin have more "obviously" strong tools and have performed well in the hands of many players. For the most part, Pit only looks special when piloted by Earth.

Greninja players are improving and the character's top tier traits are beginning to shine through. ZeRo (who has gone back and forth on his opinion of the character) is singling him out as more than just an upper/high tier with a few valuable MUs.

Times have changed from when Pit got free top 15 placements on tier lists for... no reason at all. And I think that trend already lasted a lot longer than it should have.

Really, the onus is now on you to explain why Pit should be above those three characters (and many more besides).

 

[Ulevo]

@Dabuz, what is it about the Meta Knight vs Olimar match up that you attribute it to being even. What makes this different when compared to Rosalina?

 

[Yikarur]

Das Koopa

Spoiler: Battalion (26th-28th August) (Germany) (100 Entrants)

1st: Longouw
2nd: Boomuki
3rd: WiiAse
4th: Yoh
5th: Sodrek
5th: Tsunayoshi
7th: Eddy
7th: Schligger
9th: Haeschen
9th: SdN
9th: Yikarur
9th: Kweet
13th: Plategoron
13th: Repus
13th: Sabaca
13th: Miles

 

[Das Koopa]

So, I guess I think this is good to ask. Is Yoshi actually just an extremely overrated lower-mid tier or even straight-up low tier character? Results are hardly everything, but Yoshi hardly has any accomplishments to his name, few Yoshi players seem to have remarkable set wins of big-name players, etc. Like, all of these characters seem to have better accomplishments:

Obvious ones:


Less obvious characters with a better track record or greater accomplishments:


With Yoshidora busting out at 17th and neither Raptor nor The Wall having much to their name in terms of super-impressive accomplishments, I don't see where Yoshi is the kind of character that "just needs the right playstyle/main".

The biggest indicative of a positive towards the character seem to be his regional results. Yikarur and JFK both do well, but major results and accomplishments for the character seem absent.

tear apart this post as you will, I just wanted to share my thoughts

 

[Trunks159]

Yes since she can be put in disadvantage states, she'd be the best character or a bit higher if she truly has no disadvantage states but it was just worded wrong lol




Ah okay my b I was confused because it looked like you compared her and mk in that regard but yea I see what you mean! You can read her getaways once the juggles start and stuff (OR BE DIDDY KAPPA). Never thought about it but would be interesting some kind of list to see who would have the least worry being in disadvantage states

I wouldn't say it was worded wrong. Its a figure of speech, an exaggeration. The disadvantage stage obviously exists...

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is just very very hard to play at High to Top Level play.
There are infinite ways to improve him that are very hard to implement while getting only this much better.

He doesn't really have any free win tickets and is inconsistent for that reason over the long course of a tournament.
You don't have any reliable way to kill a shielding opponent which results in some stocks dragging on forever. If that happens in a game the game is pretty much over. (more so in a 2 stock environment I'd guess, but I'm only used to 3 stocks and you can get comebacks in 3 stocks with Yoshi really well)


You have to play very neutral heavy while your tool to beat shielding in neutral is either 22 frames long or 60+ frames of lag + you get no reward out of it. So you have to play very patient and you try to put a hole in your opponents shield through spaced aerials' shield damage.

Lacking a grab is probably his biggest weakness. You can't throw out grabs without taking a huge risk. Any whiffed grab could cost you the stock. You can't punish bad spaced lagless aerials with a grab because it's too slow. It's pretty fundamental stuff that he is lacking and finding the ways arround it is the challenge.

The positive thing is that Yoshis confirms are ridiculous. You easily get 50+% of a single hit confirm so you have to play very patient and conservative until your opponent drops his guard for you to get your confirm.
Additionally Yoshi has a really high raw killing potential and his upsmash has range + strength no one would expect. You get punished really hard if you do a mistake against Yoshi.
E: and Yoshi is fat and living forever!


I think Yoshi has the potential to still be high tier but I don't see players reaching that potential yet so I'm okay with him being some kind of mid tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Das Koopa

Spoiler: Battalion (26th-28th August) (Germany) (100 Entrants)

1st: Longouw
2nd: Boomuki
3rd: WiiAse
4th: Yoh
5th: Sodrek
5th: Tsunayoshi
7th: Eddy
7th: Schligger
9th: Haeschen
9th: SdN
9th: Yikarur
9th: Kweet
13th: Plategoron
13th: Repus
13th: Sabaca
13th: Miles

If you all want to know what Ikes to watch now that Ryuga and Ryo aren't using him as much: Yoh is a pretty good one. As is Waldo. Yoh got 4th as you see here, Waldo was top 32 at Shine.

And of course San but that goes without saying.

 

[meticulousboy]

The only thing holding Lucas back is having too many moves that can be SDI'ed: Nair, usmash, dsmash, and PKT 2. This is the main issue behind multihits, even though dsmash cannot hit more than once.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sdi up Smash? Explain this

 

[SaltyKracka]

Sdi up Smash? Explain this

IIRC it's possible to maximum SDI down and away and tech it.

 

[PK Gaming]

So, I guess I think this is good to ask. Is Yoshi actually just an extremely overrated lower-mid tier or even straight-up low tier character? Results are hardly everything, but Yoshi hardly has any accomplishments to his name, few Yoshi players seem to have remarkable set wins of big-name players, etc. Like, all of these characters seem to have better accomplishments:

Obvious ones:


Less obvious characters with a better track record or greater accomplishments:


With Yoshidora busting out at 17th and neither Raptor nor The Wall having much to their name in terms of super-impressive accomplishments, I don't see where Yoshi is the kind of character that "just needs the right playstyle/main".

The biggest indicative of a positive towards the character seem to be his regional results. Yikarur and JFK both do well, but major results and accomplishments for the character seem absent.

tear apart this post as you will, I just wanted to share my thoughts

Nah, I think you're onto something.

I wouldn't call Yoshi straight up low tier, but I think it's a combination of Yoshi being thoroughly joyless as a character to play and some obvious holes that plague him at higher levels play. Like, he might seem better better than several characters on paper, but that nonexistent grab game REALLY holds him back. Looking at the current tier list, I can't really justify placing him over many of the characters in mid tier. He seems like a clear cut, lower mid tier character.

It's totally anecdotal, but the one guy I know who played Yoshi at my local switched over to Mewtwo. I asked him if he did that for a better chance of winning, but he just told me he wasn't really concerned with winning and was merely tired of playing as the character. He's apparently just incredibly unfun to use in a competitive environment and I can see why players would pass on him. I might be grasping, but I think the reason why guys like Dath or LordMix do well with their respective controversial characters is due to the fact they're incredibly fun to play as. Passion is important.

 

[Y2Kay]

Is that because Lucario literally trades his own blood for power?

Incorrect, those women were innocent.

Only this time, burning you at the stake would probably kill the village folk at 5%

At least the Lucario bashing was funny this time . . . .

 

[Luco]

IIRC it's possible to maximum SDI down and away and tech it.

In theory, but I've never seen this done in practice (and it's not like this move is important in that regard seeing as no-one uses it at competitive levels of play except me accidentally all the time gerddengit).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Nah, I think you're onto something.

I wouldn't call Yoshi straight up low tier, but I think it's a combination of Yoshi being thoroughly joyless as a character to play and some obvious holes that plague him at higher levels play. Like, he might seem better better than several characters on paper, but that nonexistent grab game REALLY holds him back. Looking at the current tier list, I can't really justify placing him over many of the characters in mid tier. He seems like a clear cut, lower mid tier character.

It's totally anecdotal, but the one guy I know who played Yoshi at my local switched over to Mewtwo. I asked him if he did that for a better chance of winning, but he just told me he wasn't really concerned with winning and was merely tired of playing as the character. He's apparently just incredibly unfun to use in a competitive environment and I can see why players would pass on him. I might be grasping, but I think the reason why guys like Dath or LordMix do well with their respective controversial characters is due to the fact they're incredibly fun to play as. Passion is important.

Yoshi is absolutely a blast to play. I dont know what your friend's deal is but between that hilarious projectile, unique aerial mobility options, fair spikes, and his general lovability as a character I can't get enough of him. He's more fun than either of my dedicated mains and if I ever have a chance to play as him, I do so. In other words, I play as Yoshi whenever I'm not trying to win. Which brings me to my next point.

Yoshi is like, bad. Pretty bad. He's far from awful, believe me. But nobody who seriously wants to win anything outside of laggy unranked matches is going to pick up this character. See, if Yoshi weren't such a goddamn fun ************ to play as, I would never bother with him at all, just like I never play any of the other bad but exponentially more dull and boring characters like Wii Fit, Wario or Pac (partially joking here and being subjective but I am slightly baffled as to how any of you mains of those three characters actually go on playing this game without draining your souls, no hard feelings though).

I've come to understand Yoshi as a mixup-based punish character not because that's how he was designed to play but because that's kind of the only thing he really does well at top level. Anyone who tells you this character is a rush down character is lying or misinformed. When Yoshi gets in your zone, he will Nair you, dash attack you, possibly dair or grab you if he reacts to your shield, and that's like it. You know why Yoshi struggles against swords, despite having excellent mobility? It's because his approaches are pitifully linear and he has to dance and weave in and out of your range before he can attack, waiting for you to overcommit, and this desired range happens to be where a lot of disjoints (Diddy fair, swordie aerials) want you to be. A good number of Yoshi's tools are basically useless in the neutral or extremely risky to do so (ftilt, downb, grab), some are flat out useless altogether (side b). Couple this with an annoying foxtrot duration (dance trotting with this character is annoying coming from someone who mains Diddy and Mewtwo) and you have a kind of awkward neutral. Yoshi is a mixup-based punish character because none of his tools are that scary and he doesn't have many of them so in order for anything to work and not be predictable, you have to commit a lot. ZSS is sort of like this because her only safe options in the neutral are short hop nairs and zairs, paralyzer, ftilt and jab maybe. Beyond that, everything (dash attack, dash grab, dsmash, rising aerials) is a commitment.

Now take away ZSS's great rewards, slightly nerf her ground mobility and buff her aerial mobility, give her a sex kick nair and buff her weight, replace her recovery with a linear and predictable one, and remove all her nice stun gun kill confirms. Congratulations, now you have Yoshi.

Pains me to say this as a huge Yoshi fanatic and lifetime Yoshi enthusiast but Das Koopa is right on the money. has little reason to be better than slightly above low tier.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Passion is important.

Very.
Passion was the sole thing that drove me forward when I felt like the entire Smash community was against me playing Lucina back in the 1.1.0 days. Nowadays, passion is a big part of why I want to succeed as her.
Having fun with what you do and doing it well is important in more than just Smash, you know.

 

[Rizen]

Adding to the Ness vs Lucas discussion, Ness has deceptively good hitbubbles around his body.
https://smashboards.com/threads/ness-hitbox-visualization.438757/
https://smashboards.com/threads/lucas-hitbox-visualization.436464/
Lucas has good disjoint too but compare Ness' Uair, Fair, Nair, DA to Lucas'. Ness has big meaty hitbubbles, Lucas has more ridged smaller bubble placements that require you to be at a 'compass direction' from the opponent (up/down/left/right). Lucas' Nair has no disjoint.
Of course there's a lot more to it than hitbubbles but they're food for though.

 

[Ffamran]

Adding to the Ness vs Lucas discussion, Ness has deceptively good hitbubbles around his body.
https://smashboards.com/threads/ness-hitbox-visualization.438757/
https://smashboards.com/threads/lucas-hitbox-visualization.436464/
Lucas has good disjoint too but compare Ness' Uair, Fair, Nair, DA to Lucas'. Ness has big meaty hitbubbles, Lucas has more ridged smaller bubble placements that require you to be at a 'compass direction' from the opponent (up/down/left/right). Lucas' Nair has no disjoint.
Of course there's a lot more to it than hitbubbles but they're food for though.

Ness's dash attack, Utilt, all Smashes, Fair, Bair, and Dair are all disjoints to begin with. For Lucas, it's dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt, all Smashes, Fair, Bair, Dair, and Zair. Not the typical weapon disjoints, but magic disjoints. Rosalina?, Peach, and Zelda have this too. Kind of Mewtwo too. Between Lucas and Ness, they're a bit similar, but there are of course, differing functions. Lucas's dash attack is basically a running Ftilt while Ness's is a different move where it's kind of like a "force push"; the hitbox of Lucas's is static while Ness's moves forward. The only weird thing is their Uair. For whatever reason, Lucas's is a static hitbox unlike in Brawl and Ness's Uair where the hitbox is attached to the head. Brawl Uair apparently was a bit crazy since it was frame 5, did 13%, and had an arcing hitbox, but they upped its startup and it doesn't have Ness's vertical angle or knockback -- these 2 were unchanged from Brawl as Ness always had the stronger Uair between the two. Oh well.

 

[Das Koopa]

Very.
Passion was the sole thing that drove me forward when I felt like the entire Smash community was against me playing Lucina back in the 1.1.0 days. Nowadays, passion is a big part of why I want to succeed as her.
Having fun with what you do and doing it well is important in more than just Smash, you know.

Passion is indeed super important, people need the drive to lab and discover new things.

I won't let nobody tell me is bad.

Spoiler

life hurts

 

[Luco]

Ness's dash attack, Utilt, all Smashes, Fair, Bair, and Dair are all disjoints to begin with. For Lucas, its dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt, all Smashes, Fair, Bair, Dair, and Zair. Not the typical weapon disjoints, but magic disjoints. Rosalina?, Peach, and Zelda have this too. Kind of Mewtwo too. Between Lucas and Ness, they're a bit similar, but there are of course, differing functions. Lucas's dash attack is basically a running Ftilt while Ness's is a different move where it's kind of like a "force push"; the hitbox of Lucas's is static while Ness's moves forward. The only weird thing is their Uair. For whatever reason, Lucas's is a static hitbox unlike in Brawl and Ness's Uair where the hitbox is attached to the head. Brawl Uair apparently was a bit crazy since it was frame 5, did 13%, and had an arcing hitbox, but they upped its startup and it doesn't have Ness's vertical angle or knockback -- these 2 were unchanged from Brawl as Ness always had the stronger Uair between the two. Oh well.

Keep in mind Lucas' Uair has 2 hitboxes in this game which send you at slightly different angles, and trying to DI well for one of them if the other hits will send you flying straight up. But yeah this is good.

Also Das Koopa minor tidbit but in your results list, Wave should also be under Nuevo as sponsored.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Passion is indeed super important, people need the drive to lab and discover new things.

I won't let nobody tell me is bad.

Spoiler

life hurts

Man...
Everyone that knows me is probably tired of hearing my story about how I became a Lucina main.
But I'm a good example of how badly character shaming can affect someone. The amount of crap people gave me for wanting to try out Lucina during the 1.1.0 days as a Mario main at the start was absolutely astronomical and unjustified. It got to the point that I was even scared of playing the game or saying I wanted to like Lucina because I was just tired of getting judged. I even got slightly depressed for it. It was irl friends, internet friends, and everywhere I went to look for Lucina stuff, there were the people being nothing short of mean.
Most people stopped giving me crap for it after I played Awakening, but yeah, most. I still to this day have to endure a lot of unecessary comments towards Lucina from a lot of parties.

Really, everyone: Just please play whatever character you want at the end of the day no matter what the tier list says. It's character diversity that makes this game so beautiful, and the game is always more fun if you play someone you legit enjoy, even more so if you have an actual goal like I do.

 

[outfoxd]

Passion brought me back to Duck Hunt. But pragmatism makes me a Rosalina comain.

Although i wonder if going only DH period l, no matter what, may be more beneficial. But the feeling of upairing someone to death at 40% is intoxicating.

 

[TDK]

I flipflopped between characters a lot because I couldn't play any of my old brawl mains well. Eventually I picked up Link because I wanted another character to sandbag with besides Puff and Zelda and something clicked. I still keep my old mains that I actually did good with around (Rosalina and Corrin) but Link is the first character that feels like I'm not done growing with him yet.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I just play so many characters because its hard to find one I want to call a main. Not that there are many that are not fun, but there are so many I enjoy. I am probably playing my best as sonic, but I play many characters. Passion is so important, which is why I'm glad at least 70% of the roster is viable.

 

[Aaron1997]

Komo gets yet another chance in the US. They will announce more players later. Hopefully we get someone new in the US because these guys deserve it

 

[Funtroon]

Try being a main. The sheer amout of ridcule and critisisim I get from maining the worst character in the game (which I don't necessarily disagree with) is absured. "Pick a real character" is a comment I get a lot.

But with Puff, something just clicked. From my days of playing her as a 6 year old back in the 64 days that's been with me since. The aerial mobility, the rest reads, the edge guarding; it all fits my playstyle.

Despite the criticism, I'm ranked 10th in my country with Jigglypuff and I look forward to rising in the ranks as the rest of the year progresses.

Do tier list matter? Absolutely. But it shouldn't be the only factor for picking up a character.

 

[Ffamran]

Keep in mind Lucas' Uair has 2 hitboxes in this game which send you at slightly different angles, and trying to DI well for one of them if the other hits will send you flying straight up. But yeah this is good.

Also Das Koopa minor tidbit but in your results list, Wave should also be under Nuevo as sponsored.

It has one hitbox, right? The hitbox viewer only shows one hitbox and while it's messy -- one site is down, so I'm reliant on raw data at the moment --, Lucas's Uair only has one hitbox listed. Outdated, but Lucas's Uair wasn't touched as far as I know: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/lucas. Reminder: damage, angle, and knockback are in hex.

This is listed under 06B which is where all other Uairs are listed. Still, fact-checking, Lucas's Uair does do 13%, send at an 80 degree angle -- well, that changed from Brawl's 62 degrees --, 10 base, and 100 growth, right? Lucas's Brawl frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitLucas.php#aerial.

Spoiler: Lucas's Uair

AsynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 2
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(7.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x50, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x0, BKB=0xa, Size=5.200000, X=0.000000, Y=14.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.100000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(10.000000)#frame 10
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(38.000000)#frame 38
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Bone 0, the cause of why Lucas's Uair is just weird. Why of all moves to have a static hitbox? It's not going to be insane if it arced. Has 1 less active frames than Ness's to begin with already, so it could have been the Mario Up Smash to Lucas's Doc and Luigi Up Smash in terms of active frames. Just messes with people seeing the animation, an arcing headbutt and oh, it only hits in one spot... Bowser, Charizard, and DK all have their headbutt Uair hitbox attached to bone 13 which is presumably the head like Ness and arguably, Bowser, Charizard, and DK's Uairs are much stronger not to the mention safer considering all three have their heads made invincible during them. Yes, they're not as fast or whatever, but even then, they're not broken or overpowered. Lucas's Uair set-ups aren't even guaranteed. If it was, then sure, but hey, look at Bowser, DK, and Robin's.

Since the data's pulled up...

The only thing holding Lucas back is having too many moves that can be SDI'ed: Nair, usmash, dsmash, and PKT 2. This is the main issue behind multihits, even though dsmash cannot hit more than once.

Spoiler: Giant check of Lucas's moves with SDI

Lucas's Nair loop hits are known to have a x2.0 SDI multiplier. First off, why since it's not really any different than Falco or Zelda's where Falco's has a property that forces his opponent to be launched wherever he's facing along with Falco being a fast-faller that helps with frame-syncing his Nair so he can chain them quickly and Falco's "normal" aerial jump allowing him to just leap at you with either another Nair or Fair and where Zelda's as of 1.1.5, does 15% with the all front hits and 11% with back hits. Lucas's Nair doesn't do much of a damage difference to Falco or Zelda's. Nothing about Lucas's Nair screams, "We screwed up and don't want to take the time to tweak its frame data, so let's slap on a x2.0 SDI onto its loop hits". Anyway, I digress, but one thing is that compared to previous games, SDI isn't as strong, so while x2.0 is of course, high, it might not be as potent as if was in Brawl or Melee. That and people might not be SDI'ing in the first place... For those who want to check, it's listed under 068.

From MasterCore, it's messing labels past "Y="; I added them in following the format. Also, I don't know what parameter deals with re-hit rates since Lucas's Nair definitely does not do 1% and have a massive frame gap until the 4% finisher.

Spoiler: Lucas's Nair

?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(7.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16f, BKB=0x46, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x14, Size=5.300000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=2.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x5, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(24.000000)#frame 24
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(26.000000)#frame 26
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0x8c, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x28, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.500000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 27
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(37.000000)#frame 37
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

For his Up and Down Smash, SDI is marked, so it won't be as annoying to find compared to Nair. Up Smash listed under 063, x1.0 SDI multipliers on all of hits -- that being the set-up hit and the main hit plus its late hit. So, no real problem there and Up Smash often hits with the main hit, especially if used as an anti-air / against airborne opponents.

Spoiler: Lucas's Up Smash

unk_F0D25BDA(0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(5.000000)#frame 5
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
unk_F0D25BDA(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(15.000000)#frame 15
unk_F13BFE8D(0x13, 0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(28.000000)#frame 28
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x6e, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x6e, BKB=0x0, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=-8.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x6e, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x6e, BKB=0x0, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 29
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(30.000000)#frame 30
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=19.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x30, Size=12.000000, X=0.000000, Y=14.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
AsynchronousTimer(33.000000)#frame 33
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=18.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x2a, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=19.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(38.000000)#frame 38
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=16.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x25, Size=10.000000, X=0.000000, Y=25.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(43.000000)#frame 43
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x20, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=30.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(48.000000)#frame 48
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=12.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x1b, Size=6.500000, X=0.000000, Y=38.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x2, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x3)
AsynchronousTimer(53.000000)#frame 53
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Next, Down Smash listed under 065, also, x1.0 SDI multipliers. As a unique move that only hits once despite having 3 hits, it wouldn't really matter, but it could definitely screw up the move if it had high SDI multipliers on any of its hitboxes. Still, it's not a multi-hit and could be considered closer to Melee Falco and Fox's Fair where the multi-hits acted as late hits, but you could still connect them all if you're lucky.

Spoiler: Lucas's Down Smash

AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
AsynchronousTimer(20.000000)#frame 20
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=17.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x2b, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=2.500000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 22
unk_7698BB42(0x0, 0x2a)
AsynchronousTimer(29.000000)#frame 29
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x1e, Size=9.800000, X=3.300000, Y=2.500000, Z=8.500000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 31
unk_7698BB42(0x0, 0x2a)
AsynchronousTimer(39.000000)#frame 39
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x14, Size=12.000000, X=-5.600000, Y=2.500000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 41
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Lastly, PKT2, the tricky part... I think it's listed under 255. This is what it looks like.

Spoiler: Lucas's PKT

AsynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 1
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x6e, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x3c, Size=9.000000, X=-2.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.300000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x6e, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x3c, Size=9.000000, X=3.000000, Y=-3.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.300000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 2
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 3
LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 2.000000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 4.300000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x1, 0x0, 0x3, 2.000000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 6.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
unk_B09F03B2(0x0, 0x1)
unk_B09F03B2(0x1, 0x1)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 6
LoopEnd(-0x63)
?SetBit(0x21000010)
LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 1.500000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 4.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x1, 0x0, 0x3, 1.500000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 5.700000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 9
LoopEnd(-0x5d)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x32, BKB=0x4a, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=12.000000, X=1.000000, Y=-1.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.300000, 0.500000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 11
RemoveAllHitboxes()
?SetBit(0x2100000f)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
End()

I'm basing this on SSBwiki where it says PKT1 does 8% and PKT2 does 2% for 5 hits, 1.5% for 5 hits, and 10% for the last hit. So, first part, the 8% is probably PKT1. Where it says, "LoopStart(0x5) is probably where PKT2 starts. Going to cut it out and label them according the format of MasterCore.

Spoiler: Lucas's PKT2

LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=4.300000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=6.000000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
unk_B09F03B2(0x0, 0x1)
unk_B09F03B2(0x1, 0x1)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 6
LoopEnd(-0x63)
?SetBit(0x21000010)
LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=4.000000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=5.700000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 9
LoopEnd(-0x5d)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x32, BKB=0x4a, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=12.000000, X=1.000000, Y=-1.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.300000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 11
RemoveAllHitboxes()
?SetBit(0x2100000f)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
End()

Basically, the loop hits do have a x2.5 SDI which is... kind of fine. PKT2 does a total of 27.5% if all hits connect; (2% * 5) + (1.5% * 5) + 10%. That's kind of insane. There's also the deal with Lucas will be traveling far enough and fast enough where it seems like the main purpose of Lucas's PKT2 is to recover and escape similar to Fire Wolf compared to Fire Fox where in Lucas's case, it's through much higher distance traveled than Ness's PKT2 which doesn't travel as far, but packs a wallop. There's also the fact Lucas doesn't need to rely on PKT2 to recover unlike Ness. For Lucas, PKT2 dropping people which, I will add seems less likely to happen compared to Fire Bird and Fire Wolf, is fine since the hitbox placement is fine -- it covers Lucas well -- and he's doing enough hit stun while moving to just get out. For Ness, if his PKT2 was a multi-hit and it dropped people, it would be terrible as he doesn't really have another option to recover with. Ness doing a ton of damage and knockback is his safety net to Lucas's distance and I have another option. Just my thoughts on this.

Also, once again, I don't know if people regularly SDI out of stuff, especially if don't know about it or don't face it often -- Lucas tends to not use PKT2 unless he really needs to, so even if people knew, they might not care since it's not going to happen often.

The rundown is that of the moves Lucas has that have above normal, x1.0, SDI multipliers, it's only really Nair that would be a problem and even then, if people aren't SDI-ing for whatever reason or if they do and it doesn't do much, it might not really matter.

Oh, and I think there needs to be a SDI list somewhere... Just sayin'.

 

[TDK]

Komo gets yet another chance in the US. They will announce more players later. Hopefully we get someone new in the US because these guys deserve it

If T gets announced I'll lose it. The best in the world in the US, competing with some of the US's top players would be really, really interesting.

 

[Luco]

It has one hitbox, right? The hitbox viewer only shows one hitbox and while it's messy -- one site is down, so I'm reliant on raw data at the moment --, Lucas's Uair only has one hitbox listed. Outdated, but Lucas's Uair wasn't touched as far as I know: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/lucas. Reminder: damage, angle, and knockback are in hex.

This is listed under 06B which is where all other Uairs are listed. Still, fact-checking, Lucas's Uair does do 13%, send at an 80 degree angle -- well, that changed from Brawl's 62 degrees --, 10 base, and 100 growth, right? Lucas's Brawl frame data: http://opensa.dantarion.com/autoframe/FitLucas.php#aerial.

Spoiler: Lucas's Uair

AsynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 2
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(7.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x50, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x0, BKB=0xa, Size=5.200000, X=0.000000, Y=14.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x0, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.100000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(10.000000)#frame 10
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(38.000000)#frame 38
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Bone 0, the cause of why Lucas's Uair is just weird. Why of all moves to have a static hitbox? It's not going to be insane if it arced. Has 1 less active frames than Ness's to begin with already, so it could have been the Mario Up Smash to Lucas's Doc and Luigi Up Smash in terms of active frames. Just messes with people seeing the animation, an arcing headbutt and oh, it only hits in one spot... Bowser, Charizard, and DK all have their headbutt Uair hitbox attached to bone 13 which is presumably the head like Ness and arguably, Bowser, Charizard, and DK's Uairs are much stronger not to the mention safer considering all three have their heads made invincible during them. Yes, they're not as fast or whatever, but even then, they're not broken or overpowered. Lucas's Uair set-ups aren't even guaranteed. If it was, then sure, but hey, look at Bowser, DK, and Robin's.

Since the data's pulled up...

Spoiler: Giant check of Lucas's moves with SDI

Lucas's Nair loop hits are known to have a x2.0 SDI multiplier. First off, why since it's not really any different than Falco or Zelda's where Falco's has a property that forces his opponent to be launched wherever he's facing along with Falco being a fast-faller that helps with frame-syncing his Nair so he can chain them quickly and Falco's "normal" aerial jump allowing him to just leap at you with either another Nair or Fair and where Zelda's as of 1.1.5, does 15% with the all front hits and 11% with back hits. Lucas's Nair doesn't do much of a damage difference to Falco or Zelda's. Nothing about Lucas's Nair screams, "We screwed up and don't want to take the time to tweak its frame data, so let's slap on a x2.0 SDI onto its loop hits". Anyway, I digress, but one thing is that compared to previous games, SDI isn't as strong, so while x2.0 is of course, high, it might not be as potent as if was in Brawl or Melee. That and people might not be SDI'ing in the first place... For those who want to check, it's listed under 068.

From MasterCore, it's messing labels past "Y="; I added them in following the format. Also, I don't know what parameter deals with re-hit rates since Lucas's Nair definitely does not do 1% and have a massive frame gap until the 4% finisher.

Spoiler: Lucas's Nair

?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(7.000000)#frame 7
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16f, BKB=0x46, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x14, Size=5.300000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=2.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x5, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(24.000000)#frame 24
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(26.000000)#frame 26
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0x8c, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x28, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.500000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 27
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(37.000000)#frame 37
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

For his Up and Down Smash, SDI is marked, so it won't be as annoying to find compared to Nair. Up Smash listed under 063, x1.0 SDI multipliers on all of hits -- that being the set-up hit and the main hit plus its late hit. So, no real problem there and Up Smash often hits with the main hit, especially if used as an anti-air / against airborne opponents.

Spoiler: Lucas's Up Smash

unk_F0D25BDA(0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(5.000000)#frame 5
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
unk_F0D25BDA(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(15.000000)#frame 15
unk_F13BFE8D(0x13, 0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(28.000000)#frame 28
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x6e, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x6e, BKB=0x0, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=-8.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x6e, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x6e, BKB=0x0, Size=6.000000, X=0.000000, Y=5.000000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x2, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x0, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 29
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(30.000000)#frame 30
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=19.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x30, Size=12.000000, X=0.000000, Y=14.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
AsynchronousTimer(33.000000)#frame 33
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=18.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x2a, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=19.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(38.000000)#frame 38
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x2, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=16.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x25, Size=10.000000, X=0.000000, Y=25.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x3, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x1)
AsynchronousTimer(43.000000)#frame 43
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x3, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x20, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=30.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x2)
AsynchronousTimer(48.000000)#frame 48
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=12.000000, Angle=0x5f, KBG=0x4d, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x1b, Size=6.500000, X=0.000000, Y=38.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x2, 0x0, 0x10)
RemoveHitbox(0x3)
AsynchronousTimer(53.000000)#frame 53
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Next, Down Smash listed under 065, also, x1.0 SDI multipliers. As a unique move that only hits once despite having 3 hits, it wouldn't really matter, but it could definitely screw up the move if it had high SDI multipliers on any of its hitboxes. Still, it's not a multi-hit and could be considered closer to Melee Falco and Fox's Fair where the multi-hits acted as late hits, but you could still connect them all if you're lucky.

Spoiler: Lucas's Down Smash

AsynchronousTimer(6.000000)#frame 6
?SetBit(0x2100001b)
AsynchronousTimer(20.000000)#frame 20
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=17.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x2b, Size=8.000000, X=0.000000, Y=2.500000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 22
unk_7698BB42(0x0, 0x2a)
AsynchronousTimer(29.000000)#frame 29
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=14.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x1e, Size=9.800000, X=3.300000, Y=2.500000, Z=8.500000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 31
unk_7698BB42(0x0, 0x2a)
AsynchronousTimer(39.000000)#frame 39
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x5a, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x14, Size=12.000000, X=-5.600000, Y=2.500000, Z=8.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, Clang=0x0, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x10, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x0, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 41
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

Lastly, PKT2, the tricky part... I think it's listed under 255. This is what it looks like.

Spoiler: Lucas's PKT

AsynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 1
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x0, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x6e, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x3c, Size=9.000000, X=-2.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.300000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10)
Hitbox_B738EABD(ID=0x1, Part=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x6e, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x3c, Size=9.000000, X=3.000000, Y=-3.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=0.300000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10)
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 2
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 3
LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 2.000000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 4.300000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x1, 0x0, 0x3, 2.000000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 6.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
unk_B09F03B2(0x0, 0x1)
unk_B09F03B2(0x1, 0x1)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 6
LoopEnd(-0x63)
?SetBit(0x21000010)
LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 1.500000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 4.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x1, 0x0, 0x3, 1.500000, 0x16e, 0x32, 0x0, 0x1e, 5.700000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 0.500000, 2.500000, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x7, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 9
LoopEnd(-0x5d)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x32, BKB=0x4a, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=12.000000, X=1.000000, Y=-1.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.300000, 0.500000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 11
RemoveAllHitboxes()
?SetBit(0x2100000f)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
End()

I'm basing this on SSBwiki where it says PKT1 does 8% and PKT2 does 2% for 5 hits, 1.5% for 5 hits, and 10% for the last hit. So, first part, the 8% is probably PKT1. Where it says, "LoopStart(0x5) is probably where PKT2 starts. Going to cut it out and label them according the format of MasterCore.

Spoiler: Lucas's PKT2

LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=4.300000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=2.000000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=6.000000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
unk_B09F03B2(0x0, 0x1)
unk_B09F03B2(0x1, 0x1)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 6
LoopEnd(-0x63)
?SetBit(0x21000010)
LoopStart(0x5)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=4.000000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x40000000, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=1.500000, Angle=0x16e, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=5.700000, X=1.000000, Y=0.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=0.500000, SDI=2.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x0, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x7, Direct/Indirect=0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, -0x3f800000, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 8
RemoveAllHitboxes()
SynchronousTimer(1.000000)#frame 9
LoopEnd(-0x5d)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x3, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x32, BKB=0x4a, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x5a, Size=12.000000, X=1.000000, Y=-1.000000, Z=0.000000, Effect=0x3, Trip=0x0, Hitlag=1.300000, SDI=0.500000, Clang=0x1, ?=0x1, SFXLevel=0x0, SFXType=0x2, Ground/Air=0x2, Direct/Indirect0x3, 0x1, 0x10, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 11
RemoveAllHitboxes()
?SetBit(0x2100000f)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
End()

Basically, the loop hits do have a x2.5 SDI which is... kind of fine. PKT2 does a total of 27.5% if all hits connect; (2% * 5) + (1.5% * 5) + 10%. That's kind of insane. There's also the deal with Lucas will be traveling far enough and fast enough where it seems like the main purpose of Lucas's PKT2 is to recover and escape similar to Fire Wolf compared to Fire Fox where in Lucas's case, it's through much higher distance traveled than Ness's PKT2 which doesn't travel as far, but packs a wallop. There's also the fact Lucas doesn't need to rely on PKT2 to recover unlike Ness. For Lucas, PKT2 dropping people which, I will add seems less likely to happen compared to Fire Bird and Fire Wolf, is fine since the hitbox placement is fine -- it covers Lucas well -- and he's doing enough hit stun while moving to just get out. For Ness, if his PKT2 was a multi-hit and it dropped people, it would be terrible as he doesn't really have another option to recover with. Ness doing a ton of damage and knockback is his safety net to Lucas's distance and I have another option. Just my thoughts on this.

Also, once again, I don't know if people regularly SDI out of stuff, especially if don't know about it or don't face it often -- Lucas tends to not use PKT2 unless he really needs to, so even if people knew, they might not care since it's not going to happen often.

The rundown is that of the moves Lucas has that have above normal, x1.0, SDI multipliers, it's only really Nair that would be a problem and even then, if people aren't SDI-ing for whatever reason or if they do and it doesn't do much, it might not really matter.

Oh, and I think there needs to be a SDI list somewhere... Just sayin'.

Check out this thread, if you look very closely at his Uair animation you'll notice 2 distinct hitboxes based on timing, one is slightly to the left of the other but they otherwise have the same shape and size:

https://smashboards.com/threads/lucas-hitbox-visualization.436464/

 

[LancerStaff]

A quick gander at Koopa's rankings will show you that all three are comfortably above Pit in results.

Marth and Corrin have more "obviously" strong tools and have performed well in the hands of many players. For the most part, Pit only looks special when piloted by Earth.

Greninja players are improving and the character's top tier traits are beginning to shine through. ZeRo (who has gone back and forth on his opinion of the character) is singling him out as more than just an upper/high tier with a few valuable MUs.

Times have changed from when Pit got free top 15 placements on tier lists for... no reason at all. And I think that trend already lasted a lot longer than it should have.

Really, the onus is now on you to explain why Pit should be above those three characters (and many more besides).

Where are the results you're looking at?

The heck is "obvious" power? It's more "obvious" most people don't have a clue how to fight Corrin and Marth.

Earth, Kuro, Plastic Poptart, a few others... That's not just Earth. Kuro got top 8 at Sumbato just a week ago.

Speaking of last week, people were definitely with me on Greninja and Corrin's placement so I don't know why that's any different. Marth's top level results aren't much better then Pit's as far as I can tell and everybody flees when I try and debate it out so I literally have no reason to think otherwise. It's less about Pit's placement and more about how far apart these characters are relative to him. Corrin a tier ahead of Pit is dumb, especially when arguably one of Corrin's best players quickly demoted him to a blue-moon counterpick in favor for Pit. Marth a tier ahead of Pit doesn't make sense to me.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Marth's top level results are much better than Pit's. Sorry to say, but one has 3-4 amazing players backing him and Pit has 1-2.
But results aside, I'll be frank with you.
Pit doesn't have a bunch of stupid **** in his gameplan. To be a good character, you need to have dumb stuff that can outright win games or seal out matchups. Pit is too fair, therefore he is not amazing. Character's just okay, and there's nothing wrong with that.
You shouldn't be fighting to improve people's opinion on your character. Let people think they're trash then get the wins because they were too dumb to study the MU.

 

[Rizen]

https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
Based on Das Koopa's awesome thread, 's results are lacking. He's under Mac in the top 8/16s. I'm not saying results are the end-all decider but I'm not seeing why Pit's better than mid-tiers like .
What makes Pit a high tier?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Also, Dark.Pch , I always really like your posts! I always like seeing you around here.

Thanks dude.

Do tier list matter? Absolutely. But it shouldn't be the only factor for picking up a character.

A tier list does not matter to me. What is it doing for me? If there was not a tier list, results would not change. It be the same thing. People would play the same way. And people will still complain about the same characters. You will see the same over used characters in tournament. People should just play who they want. if you are being manipulated or pressured to pick a character due to a tier list, you are not playing on your free will. You are just trying to be one with the crowd. You are not thinking for yourself.

As for this tier list. I can't take it seriously for how this was made. The fact there characters have to be voted on for a spot on the list is not a legit way and I never understood why. If there were people that vote Zelda for mid tier (when she clearly isnt), she would be mid tier on this list no questions ask. If you have a team in the backroom. There should be people who can give good insight on said character. From there you can measure that up with tournament performance and the character as a whole. Unless there is a good reason for this system used to make a tier list, I think its just lazy work. This list contradicts itself way too many times.

 

[Nobie]

I find it interesting that Hungrybox approaches Melee and Smash 4 differently in terms of playing to win.

In Melee, he's all about striving to be the best in the world, using the character that suits him best.

In Smash 4, he's all about being the best in the world for his character, despite Jigglypuff being low to bottom tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

T beating Ranai

 

[Baby_Sneak]

T beating Ranai

T has a ridiculous punish game

Destroyed retreating Nairs, ranai's disadvantage game, got through ranai's arsenal of weapons with his own, was edgeguarding ranai pretty well...

After T got his hits in, he went in after-wards. He also sports a pretty good juggle game too.

 

[FullMoon]

Where are the results you're looking at?

The heck is "obvious" power? It's more "obvious" most people don't have a clue how to fight Corrin and Marth.

Earth, Kuro, Plastic Poptart, a few others... That's not just Earth. Kuro got top 8 at Sumbato just a week ago.

Speaking of last week, people were definitely with me on Greninja and Corrin's placement so I don't know why that's any different. Marth's top level results aren't much better then Pit's as far as I can tell and everybody flees when I try and debate it out so I literally have no reason to think otherwise. It's less about Pit's placement and more about how far apart these characters are relative to him. Corrin a tier ahead of Pit is dumb, especially when arguably one of Corrin's best players quickly demoted him to a blue-moon counterpick in favor for Pit. Marth a tier ahead of Pit doesn't make sense to me.

Come on, just look at Das Koopa's rankings:

Top 16 Weighted:

Marth: 112.5
Greninja: 94.5
Corrin: 86.5
Pit: 34

Top 8 Weighted:

Marth: 50.5
Greninja: 41.5
Corrin: 39
Pit: 10

Hell, as far as Marth and Greninja are concerned, the weekend's results are also pretty telling.

5th: Oishiitofu
5th: Waveguider ,
9th: DooM ,
9th: Ludi
1st: iStudying
7th: Eddy

9th: Mr. E
9th: KillLock
5th: Plastic Poptart
9th: Anderson
13th: Sabaca

4th: Earth

Greninja and Marth just have way more representation getting good placings overall than Pit does. Most of Pit's results can be attributed to Earth which says more about how good Earth is than Pit.

Marth especially has been consistently going strong at top level for a long time now with multiple players getting results with him constantly, while Greninja's results are mostly on a mid/high level with the occasional good result at top level I believe.

The same can also apply to Corrin who also has more widespread representation getting stuff done than Pit does, although like Greninja I think that happens less in top level, though EVO sure gave Corrin a good boost.

I get that you think Pit is really good and all but at this point you're just going against all evidence. Pit is a good character but he really doesn't have much a case going for him being higher than Greninja, Corrin and especially Marth.

 

[Ninety]

Passion is indeed super important, people need the drive to lab and discover new things.

I won't let nobody tell me is bad.

Spoiler

life hurts

is straight up bad mate.