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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Ziodyne 21

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It kind of doesn't help when your character has yet to be able to break into Top 8 of a major ( Good results from Trela & Locus yes, but not top tier results either , that'd be such a large overstatement ) and for good reasons:
I think it's been mentionned enough times but Ryu's matchup spread is a*s. This character's ways of breaking into the higher scales of a major is only by abusing most players' overextensive nature. Aside from that, the character is usually losing to most top tier he's facing, as well as being the character with by far the hugest upset potential out there, when most high tiers & zoners hapen to have an even matchup at the very least. It's very clear that Ryu's future will only worsen over time, as people adapt to the many characters of this game: Ryu isn't exactly an hard character to figure out, but the choking factor that comes from his clutch factor is quite big. For the time being, Ryu may or may not be able to clutch out some fights ( Not all of them even, the character still sucks against Rosalina, against Diddy, against the better zoners a la Villager & Megaman, and so on ) , but i'm almost certain the Top side of players will sooner or later adapt to this character & his limiations.

So yeah, Tl;Dr, I do not see how Ryu should be featured anywhere near The Top 11/12 characters of this game. ( Clones & Miis should be unranked entirely imo, even Doc. The amount of people who can share their opinion rightfully about the character is way too small for them to be featured in any list )
Trela mentioned in his long discussion/rant about Ryu's viability is that, if a character does not have to approach Ryu, his enitre gameplan ,his potential, theory, power. It just about falls apart at the seams
Unfortunately most of the top tiers do not need to approach him at all.
:4sheik::4diddy::4bayonetta::rosalina::4marth: :4mewtwo:along with many high and mid tiers all have ways to lame him out the entire fight.

To be a bit controversial, the only reason why :4ryu: is not considered worse than he is why :4sonic: is not considered better than he currently is.
The reason being that playing campy and lame is seemingly almost silently considered taboo in competitive play, at least for more than 1-2 matches

I mean how many top Sonic mains really play him at this most annoyingly campy?
 
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Laken64

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i really don't think zss is as great as people claim, simply if we look at the character's matchups. most importantly zss loses to the top 4 characters in the game solidly, those being some combination of bayonetta, cloud, diddy kong, and sheik.
While we're talking about ZSS can someone tell me all the major Zero Suits out there? All I know is Nairo, Marss, Remzi, and Choco, which I feel are the only players bringing those major results to the table (Well just Nario and Marss tbh though not discounting Choco).
 
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The-Technique

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Nairo has a large lifetime win rate over Ally, including his most recent win over Ally at Tokaigi. I'd say that ZSS solidly beats Mario
 
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Lord Dio

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Some predictions:
Moving up: :4marth::4lucina::4bayonetta::4luigi::4bowser::4shulk::4charizard::4link::4duckhunt::4olimar::4lucas::4peach::4feroy:
Moving down: :4kirby::4myfriends::4ness::4pit::4yoshi::4falcon::4ryu:
Out of curiosity, what would cause Falcon to go down?
If marth and lucina are separated by 7-9 spots or less I'll be very happy. 17 spots, 2 tiers apart, did not seem reasonable, and I really hope people understand that the tier and spot difference between the two should definitely be smaller.
Imo, Cloud will go down one or two spots, 5 max.
If Ganondorf can break out of bottom 5 I will be very happy. If through soem miracle he breaks out of bottom ten I will scream for joy.

Predictions:
Going down (not necessarily by a whole tier, just moving down 2-3 spots minimum)::4ryu::4ness::4tlink::4yoshi::4pit::4ryu:
:4lucario::4greninja: are ones I'm unsure about but I feel the possibility is there (could well be wrong with greninja though)

Going up (again not whole tiers necessarily, just moving up a spot or two minimum)::4bowserjr::4shulk::4robinf::4bowser::4lucina::4marth::4luigi::4peach:
:4pacman: is a maybe.
 

Ziodyne 21

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ZeRo newest analysis vid on "the funnest character in the game " Falcon (man has he been cranking these out)



Maybe its because ZeRo is such a Falcon fan, but I do think he is kinda downplaying how big of an issue his bad MU's vs Sheik and Bayo really are in the meta .Results have shown he gets utterly wrecked by them.Anyone that struggles so much vs those two (and Pikachu to a lesser extent) is going to have a hard time rising in the current meta.

I don't play Marth or Lucina so I cant comment myself, but does anyone think that Falcon does well in that MU? Because if it happens to be true that could be something in his favor.
 
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Goombo

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It wouldn't suprise me if (not focussing the next official tier list at all) the overall number of top tiers went down a bit in not too distant future.
There are just some characters of the so long perceived "nearly impossible to get in order" top tier that are now falling off in both theory and results, or to name them: :4mario::4zss::rosalina: (and :4ryu:, if you really think he was top tier at any point)


So the (unordered) top tier could potentially look like this in a while:
:4bayonetta::4cloud::4diddy::4fox::4mewtwo::4marth::4sheik::4sonic:
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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ZeRo newest analysis vid on "the funnest character in the game " Falcon (man has he been cranking these out)



Maybe its because ZeRo is such a Falcon fan, but I do think he is kinda downplaying how big of an issue his bad MU's vs Sheik and Bayo really are in the meta .Results have shown he gets utterly wrecked by them.. Anyone that struggles so much vs those two (and Pikachu to a lesser extent) is going to have a hard time rising in the current meta.

I don't play Marth or Lucina so I cant comment myself, but does anyone think that Falcon does well in that MU? Because if it happens to be true that could be something in his favor.
I feel like I am the only one who doesn't get hype for Captain Falcon or really get the thrills of playing him, granted he's ok to play once and a while just not really even in my top half of characters I would play.

Still I get it, but I'd rather play Ganon between the two.
 

Lord Dio

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Too many losing MUs to stay where he is.

His MU chart is pretty bad, so he probably won't be.
I know, just wishful thinking.


ZeRo newest analysis vid on "the funnest character in the game " Falcon (man has he been cranking these out)



Maybe its because ZeRo is such a Falcon fan, but I do think he is kinda downplaying how big of an issue his bad MU's vs Sheik and Bayo really are in the meta .Results have shown he gets utterly wrecked by them.. Anyone that struggles so much vs those two (and Pikachu to a lesser extent) is going to have a hard time rising in the current meta.

I don't play Marth or Lucina so I cant comment myself, but does anyone think that Falcon does well in that MU? Because if it happens to be true that could be something in his favor.
Fatality lost to VoiD at SSC right? Pretty sure he did, and the most recent win over a sheik I can think of for him is Javi at G4. Aside from that I don't really recall times he played a top or at least well-known sheik or bayo....there's probably some matches against esam on youtube though.
Really not the best, but I kind of want to say it could either be even or 55:45 in falcon's favor. Feels like marcina and falcon have about the same range (could jsut be falcon's height meddlign with me though).
 

Rizen

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:4zss: doesn't have the best top tier MU chart but it's acceptable and IMO ZSS gets some points for crushing heavies lower than her. She's one of those characters (unlike Mario) who is extremely oppressive to certain characters. Her move set is also top tier, Utilt, flip kick, frame 1 jab... come on.
 
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Shulk Discord released the new iteration of their community MU chart.

I'll plop down some thoughts.

- :4bayonetta::4sheik::4fox::4diddy: are all definitely worse than shown, I'd put the latter in -2 and move up Bayo and Sheik to -1.5.
- :4pikachu:being slight disadvantage is heavily confusing to me. MU is hot ass.
- I don't see how we beat :4bowser: or :4dk:. Both are even at best.

Otherwise, pretty agreeable chart.
 
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RIP|Merrick

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Nom just beat (upset?) T 2-1, T SD'd when he was offstage and tried recovering too low, rip.
 

valakmtnsmash4

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Shulk Discord released the new iteration of their community MU chart.

I'll plop down some thoughts.

- :4bayonetta::4sheik::4fox::4diddy: are all definitely worse than shown, I'd put the latter in -2 and move up Bayo and Sheik to -1.5.
- :4pikachu:being slight disadvantage is heavily confusing to me. MU is hot ***.
- I don't see how we beat :4bowser: or :4dk:. Both are even at best.

Otherwise, pretty agreeable chart.
That chart is actually a month and a half old, many thoughts have changed. I still find it mostly agreeable
 

Yonder

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It wouldn't suprise me if (not focussing the next official tier list at all) the overall number of top tiers went down a bit in not too distant future.
There are just some characters of the so long perceived "nearly impossible to get in order" top tier that are now falling off in both theory and results, or to name them: :4mario::4zss::rosalina: (and :4ryu:, if you really think he was top tier at any point)


So the (unordered) top tier could potentially look like this in a while:
:4bayonetta::4cloud::4diddy::4fox::4mewtwo::4marth::4sheik::4sonic:
Mario's results are still pretty solid...Ally, Anti Zenyou off the top of my head placing well and no one has really abused that range problem Mario has despite that being his main weakness. His mobility is on par with most of the other tops...But lacks a burst option. Idk, if Luigi is rising up to high tier, it's hard to not see Mario as top who's (mostly) superior in everyway.
 
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Skeeter Mania

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This isn't how tiering works. Marth being top tier and also better than Lucina has no bearing on whether or not Lucina is top tier or indeed better than any other character herself.


"Marth is better than Falcon,
and Marth is better than Lucina,
therefore Falcon is better than Lucina"

is just straight up bad logic.
I was responding to @Bowserboy3's post in case you were wondering.
 

TDK

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Ryuga 2-1 Shuton, double eliminating him.

That's probably the most bizarre loss from Japan tonight, Tsu- and KEN both got double eliminated by Japan and T lost to Japan and a horrible matchup (Sheik Link is 6-4 Sheik at absolute best).

Note: I don't claim to know the Olimar-Corrin matchup.
 
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valakmtnsmash4

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Olimar corrin is pretty annoying for olimar but it is doable as shuton showed in game 2. Olimar does not have much answers to pin and Corrins juggling can leave olimar in a bad position due to his bad disadvantage state.
 

ARGHETH

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Ryuga 2-1 Shuton, double eliminating him.

That's probably the most bizarre loss from Japan tonight, Tsu- and KEN both got double eliminated by Japan and T lost to Japan and a horrible matchup (Sheik Link is 6-4 Sheik at absolute best).

Note: I don't claim to know the Olimar-Corrin matchup.
Shuton (and personal experience) says that it's losing.
 
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my_T

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Mario's results are still pretty solid...Ally, Anti Zenyou off the top of my head placing well and no one has really abused that range problem Mario has despite that being his main weakness. His mobility is on par with most of the other tops...But lacks a burst option. Idk, if Luigi is rising up to high tier, it's hard to not see Mario as top who's (mostly) superior in everyway.
Mario mains still have the most inconsistent results among the top tiers. Mario mains also have a much higher secondary usage than other top tiers. All of the top tiers except Diddy, Bayo, and Rosa have significantly better mobility. Also, i'm sure his short range and less than stellar mobility are part of the reason why he struggles so much against Sonic, Marth, Rosa, ZSS, Cloud, and to a lesser extent Greninja, Luigi, Bowser, and DK.

As some posters have said, he's just not as oppressive in most match-ups unlike the other top tiers.

This character is a tad bit overrated by some.
 

TDK

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Gamer's Gauntlet Weekly #21 (68 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Kirihara :rosalina:
2nd: Kameme :4sheik: :4megaman:
3rd: Ryuga :4corrinf:
4th: Shuton :4olimar:
5th: Tsu- :4lucario:
5th: Nom :4sheik:
7th: T :4link:
7th: KEN :4sonic:
 
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PJB

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I feel as though zenyou beating elegant to take MSM has flown somewhat under the radar. Obviously zenyou is an amazing player, but is that a normal result? I was under the impression that Mario had a tough matchup with luigi
 

Shaya

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People over exaggerate the power of flip jump; yes it's really good that a character essentially has two jump air dodges in their arsenal for escaping disadvantage compared to most characters' one but that's all it is, for every flip jump away, jump air dodge input correctly would've also worked. At lower levels of play the single inputness of down-b vs buffering jump and timing air dodge baffles people and hence they go OMG BROKEN.
Meanwhile it has the huge draw back of the auto footstool, which people who actually know how to play against zero suit will accept that while it's good and has to be respected, the counter play and resulting reward is significantly more than the base options.

Zero suit isn't particularly great, she has all these 'broken' tools (I will admit they essentially are, but the drawbacks and purposeful dysfunctionality forced into her kit are very noticeable) but when you compare to the consistency of the 'smash definition of a top tier' which we definitely have a few (Cloud, Bayo, Diddy; maybe shek/sonic too), she doesn't match up.
However, every time there's a dip in success for players like Nairo, the naysayers come along to exaggerate things (like her actually losing to actually bad character like Pikachu, lol)
And when those players bounce back the naysayers shut up for a while, although we then have to deal with the "zero suit is super frikken broken" idiots for a while too.
can't win, can we?

Either way, forced dysfunction in her kit means that as time goes on and people get better at the match up, the less she's able to overcome things because players will abuse those things.
But, she's an option rich character (mostly unique options to just her, but when compared to the simplicity of Cloud*/Bayo's strengths in their options, HA HAH), and there's a lot still to be worked and improved on.
* Isn't it great that cloud can bair otg and hit most of the cast on the ground? Yeah he's just that silly. Meanwhile ZSS bair can only hit the tops of shields of the tallest chars. This is dysfunctionality in a kit, and Cloud frankly doesn't have any that matter.. it keeps me up at night pondering whether its accidental these things happen to characters like ZSS, or that in the beauty of sakurai's mind he intended these shortfalls and balanced their strengths to compensate really well, just that he didn't put the same amount of effort into the designing and tuning of DLC [z-axis jank shouldn't exist like it does for cloud/bayo and i'm adamant if Sakurai was actually fully involved in development he wouldn't let those slip]

Her meteoric rise so to speak came after the shield mechanics patch, nair went from really poor on block, a move designed to be a punish and not a neutral-state one (hello, that's back air; hey zero suits, use back air more) and people didn't know how to deal with it despite it being a really simple, ultimately power shield fodder/only something bad players cannot deal with (with enough time/experience in the mu, struggling with it at first is more than fine).
But at the same time she lost all the shield safety of paralyzer and down smash; tools which we look at now as the stuff we need but is now 5-10 frames lees safe on block as they used to be [and people pretend/think down smash is safe on block and complain about it too, but no -17 or worse isn't very cash money).

Complaining and Nairo/Aba escapades resulted in her having her dysfunction enhanced by grab reward being significantly less than it was before (you could live to a 1 whiff vs 1 real grab before, now you rarely can afford more than 1 whiff per stock while still needing several successful grabs to keep people on their toes) and they made it a lot harder for her to grab landings too (now jumping against her brainlessly is generally free). Nair range nerf meant she suddenly required perfect spacing to deal with the sudden over saturation of competent sword characters (thank god for back air though!).

Anyway, this train of thought is somewhat all over the shop, is she good, is she bad?
She's insanely difficult, but she still can achieve great things, losing so many frames of safety and leeway on her tools is pretty devastating but in theory you can still do all the same stuff as before.

Cloud MU suddenly looks horrendous because Cloud's figured out up air does everything a neutral air, up air and forward air [+ an air dodge, :joy:] would do for most other characters, and it's blatantly obnoxious which overtly hurts human height characters to the point that Cloud shouldn't be losing to any of them (part of why I don't think sheik beats cloud anymore).
But, Zero Suits haven't adjusted to play around this yet, and I doubt many other characters have either.
Let's not forget that cloud nairing OtG is also insanely dumb and does everything most characters 5 aerials can do in combination.

Out of top/high tiers, she's mostly running even with everyone except Diddy, and Sheik/Cloud can snowball against her and look disgusting but the reverse is also feasible. She's one tier down from the simpletons, but can still achieve more than everyone else near her otherwise (at least IMO, for the time being, meta development is always a thang).
As my old mentor would put it if he was Jerry Seinfeld, Zero Suit has win conditions coming out of every orifice, and Cloud is the only other character in the cast who can argue similarity to that. The combination of mobility, frame data and hitbox sizes allows her to set pace in many match ups still, and if not right now, there's leeway for that more in the future, even against the likes of Diddy.
 
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L9999

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I feel as though zenyou beating elegant to take MSM has flown somewhat under the radar. Obviously zenyou is an amazing player, but is that a normal result? I was under the impression that Mario had a tough matchup with luigi
Zenyou has a long history of being inconsistent.

Gamer's Gauntlet Weekly #21 (68 Entrants) (Michigan)

1st: Kirihara :rosalina:
2nd: Kameme :4sheik: :4megaman:
3rd: Ryuga :4corrinf:
4th: Shuton :4olimar:
5th: Tsu- :4lucario:
5th: Nom :4sheik:
7th: T :4link:
7th: KEN :4sonic:
I thought Rosa and Corrin's meta died. Since Corrin finally showed up, what's her MU spread? I have heard a lot of people say he/she invalidates their character yet some people say he/she sucks.
 

|RK|

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Since you are the Kirby source of this thread, do you know who mains him? People say MikeKirby but I have not heard a thing from him since the custom moves fiasco.
I know a few, but not too many worth noting. MikeKirby took a break for a little while - used to be PR'd in Tristate a few months back. Komota consistently gets 13th at Midwest tournaments, and he's probably the reason Ned thinks Kirby vs Cloud is only +1 for Cloud. Other than that, there aren't really any consistently placing, active Kirby players. And no one notable goes to any majors.

KidGoggles does put in a LOT of work with his Kirby secondary, as everyone is aware. Falln has a Kirby he rarely ever touches, SGK has a Kirby, but she doesn't seem to use him too well (or too often) save for certain MUs.

There are more, but they're not active enough on a large scale for me to mention here.
 

Emblem Lord

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Mario will always be the most inconsistent top tier because overall in terms of options, he is not actually top tier. But he has the most important top tier trait in the metagame.

Solid and reliable conversions in his burst zone because of his grab game.

If you really want to understand how important this is, you only need to look at Metaknight. A character that lives and dies by his ability to convert and....I mean...just THAT. Period.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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I guess I must be one of the few people who actually believe that ZSS has become severly underrated. Like, who's truly and irrefutably better than her right now? Diddy, Sheik, Bayonetta, alright. But that's it. Everything else is very much arguable at this point so for all we know ZSS could very well still be the 4th best character in the game and that wouldn't even be much of a stretch to think about.

Honestly, I'm just hoping that Nairo manages to dodge Zero in bracket and win Frostbite just to see people's reactions. ZSS is still insanely powerful and after the rampage Nairo pulled off in Japan - somehow his incredible achievements there have managed to slip under people's radars almost completely - nothing would surprise me.

:059:
 

Emblem Lord

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ZSS is def underrated.

I just do not get it. There is no situation she cannot respond too.

Is she super oppressive? Well, no. But she has all the tools. It just takes knowledge and unlike say Sheik or Diddy who have really one dimensional tools that cover alot of scenarios, she takes more knowledge and understanding. She DOES have a neutral, tho it's very SH based so you more or less know what to expect. But what she does have works very well.

Seriously tired of you people talking like Bowser is secret god tier and ZSS is worthless.

Be serious guys.

Also Shaya Shaya I must disagree. ZSS bair for example clearly functions as intended. Can't hit grounded opponents? Perhaps the move is not meant to work that way. Cloud is OVERTUNED in terms of his normals as several sword characters are. ZSS has alot of things about her that are overtuned as well. Do not confuse dysfunctional with a niche role. Dysfunctional would mean it clearly SHOULD work a certain way, but it doesn't. Or it does not fulfill it's intended purpose. You can't say that about ZSS's...well anything. BUT...as a fellow Brawl Marth main I understand why you said that. I feel in smash as a whole we are really used to just being spoiled with tools that to do SO much for very little investment or thought. So its easy to take a surface level glance at a character's buttons for example and make a direct comparison with little context, and just call nonsense.
 
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ぱみゅ

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I also agree that ZSS is underrated.
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that not a whole lot of people use her.

But anyway, Nairo has popularized a High-risk, high-reward style; it means you sometimes bet it all for a combo (or a grab) to connect and get the gold with an explosive conversion. It sometimes doesn't work. It baffles me how a character with so many low-cooldown moves and plethora of movement and mixup options is widely always played like that.
But at least I noticed that, while in Japan, Nairo did play a more patient ZSS game (but still as swift as ever, just incurring into less risks); he might improve his results again if he keeps that up.
:196:
 
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FeelMeUp

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You can't play low risk ZSS against the characters in top 5.
I discussed this with the ZSS players during the Diddy/ZSS JMU a few days back(they agree it's 6:4 Diddy, btw).
If you're playing safely, the punishes you earn aren't meaningful enough to outreward characters like Diddy(+2), Sheik(+1/2) and Bayo(+1) that dominate you in all three gamestates. Nairo's current style works extremely well for the meta we have.
A passive and safe ZSS can't beat other tip-top tiers reliably.
unlike say Sheik or Diddy who have really one dimensional tools that cover alot of scenarios, she takes more knowledge and understanding.
takes more knowledge and understanding.
You usually make pretty agreeable posts, but this is easily one of the craziest and most ridiculous things said so far.
 
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Guido65

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Nom just beat (upset?) T 2-1, T SD'd when he was offstage and tried recovering too low, rip.
I don't think this is much of an upset as sheik is links 2nd worst matchup behind fox(having -2 matchup against sheik and fox is a huge dent to his solo viability) so him losing to a sheik really shouldn't be much of a surprise. Not only that but this is also the first sheik he's fought and he hasn't faced any other sheik player to my knowledge. Whenever he faced nietono he went diddy.
 
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