Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

However it's flaw is that it has an enormous 24 frames of startup making it impossible to use in most punish situations. It's only really good as a hard read and GnW has to hope they run into it. Whereas Olimar's (which is stronger) can be used both as a hard read and in common punish situations.

It's still a pretty great move overall, I'd put it in top 10 up Smashes but idk about top 5.

Would anti-airing or land trapping be considered a common punish situation? If so, then its high startup might not really matter since from frames 4-25, 22 I-frames, most of Mr. G&W's body is completely invincible. If anything, the high startup is to balance out its low recovery, good invincibility placements, and high I-frames. Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/where-is-the-invincibility-on-up-smash.436998/.

Spoiler: Mr. G&W's Up Smash invincibility location

TheUndeadReturns's estimate of invincibility.

Lavani's in-game showing of it.

While Up Smash ranking does seem suited for another thread which hasn't gotten to Smashes yet, I'd throw in Little Mac's as well. Someone -- was it Zapp? -- put it as Fox's Up Smash that is slightly slower, but just as if not stronger, especially its late hit. Also, while it lacks invincibility which Fox's isn't that great since Fox's Up Smash only has invincibility on his head for some reason -- carried over from at least since Melee -- instead of head and body or legs considering it's a backflip, a kick attack, a Flash Kick, Little Mac's has armor at frames 8-11, 4 armor frames -- 5 less compared to Fox's 1-9 I-frames --, and it starts 2 frames before its 10 startup and ends on the first active late hit. Little Mac's also has lower recovery at 34 frames to Fox's 45. The only downside outside of Little Mac not having the numerous and reliable setups Fox's has is that Little Mac's might be shorter vertically, but he makes up by having possibly more horizontal reach. Anyway, I bet Fox would kill for Little Mac's Up Smash. Pretty much anyone would.

I also stand by that Fox might want Falco's Up Smash, but this one's going to be iffier; Falco's would be weaker and more unreliable like any multi-hit, but boasts much higher active frames, especially compared with its strong hit to Fox's, better invincibility placement -- his legs rather than his head --, higher I-frames, lower recovery -- 30 frames to Fox's 45 --, and a lower starting hitbox. Like Little Mac, Falco's main downside is the lack of reliable setups; Fox rocking either of theirs would be able to setup theirs easily while also gaining the benefits like higher damage and armor of Little Mac's or the better anti-air and meatier hit, higher active frames, of Falco's.

 

[williamsga555]

If we're going to play the "Luigi up smash, but it's on Luigi so who cares" card, Doc needs some serious attention with his up smash. That move is pretty nutty.

Worst up smash might be Dedede. Slow, terrible hitbox, wildly unsafe, and doesn't kill. No reason to use it over up tilt basically anywhere.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd say best usmash goes to Mario, mostly due to the combination of high character pick rate, raw power, and ease of use. I'll take it as a given that Olimar's purple usmash is also good, I simply don't use him enough to judge.

Other notable usmashes I can think of are Luigi/Dr. Mario (face it, they're pretty similar to Mario's), Rosalina (similar in function, if not power; Luma helps), and Ganondorf (stupidly safe for its power). Lucas, ZSS, Bayonetta, and Palutena go into the "novelty" category for their size and, in Lucas's case, raw power.

Sheik and Diddy can score kills off of their usmashes too, but Sheik needs a sweetspot and a read while Diddy confirms out of a banana, which means he can do basically any move he wants so I'm not sure the smash itself is anything special.

 

[EternalFlare]

Would anti-airing or land trapping be considered a common punish situation? If so, then its high startup might not really matter since from frames 4-25, 22 I-frames, most of Mr. G&W's body is completely invincible. If anything, the high startup is to balance out its low recovery, good invincibility placements, and high I-frames. Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/where-is-the-invincibility-on-up-smash.436998/.

Spoiler: Mr. G&W's Up Smash invincibility location

TheUndeadReturns's estimate of invincibility.

Lavani's in-game showing of it.

While Up Smash ranking does seem suited for another thread which hasn't gotten to Smashes yet, I'd throw in Little Mac's as well. Someone -- was it Zapp? -- put it as Fox's Up Smash that is slightly slower, but just as if not stronger, especially its late hit. Also, while it lacks invincibility which Fox's isn't that great since Fox's Up Smash only has invincibility on his head for some reason -- carried over from at least since Melee -- instead of head and body or legs considering it's a backflip, a kick attack, a Flash Kick, Little Mac's has armor at frames 8-11, 4 armor frames -- 5 less compared to Fox's 1-9 I-frames --, and it starts 2 frames before its 10 startup and ends on the first active late hit. Little Mac's also has lower recovery at 34 frames to Fox's 45. The only downside outside of Little Mac not having the numerous and reliable setups Fox's has is that Little Mac's might be shorter vertically, but he makes up by having possibly more horizontal reach. Anyway, I bet Fox would kill for Little Mac's Up Smash. Pretty much anyone would.

I also stand by that Fox might want Falco's Up Smash, but this one's going to be iffier; Falco's would be weaker and more unreliable like any multi-hit, but boasts much higher active frames, especially compared with its strong hit to Fox's, better invincibility placement -- his legs rather than his head --, higher I-frames, lower recovery -- 30 frames to Fox's 45 --, and a lower starting hitbox. Like Little Mac, Falco's main downside is the lack of reliable setups; Fox rocking either of theirs would be able to setup theirs easily while also gaining the benefits like higher damage and armor of Little Mac's or the better anti-air and meatier hit, higher active frames, of Falco's.

Unless they are doing full jump approaches, I don't see GnW's up Smash anti-airing on reaction. Against short hops, it'd have to be a read. When it comes to catching landings, GnW would have to already be in position. If he has to follow DI and run up Up Smash last second just before they land, it's probably too slow for this purpose. Whereas most other Up Smashes would work.

Little Mac's up Smash is definitely up there. It's just as safe on block as Olimar's and based off my tests it's around the same power (so definitely much stronger than Fox's up Smash) without rage and slightly worse with rage (40 BKB on it vs Olimar's 50).

Only flaw really is as you said, Little Mac's lack of setups into it and Little Mac can't force any character to approach the way Olimar can making it arguably more situational.

But Little Mac does have fantastic ground mobility which in theory should mean it's an excellent whiff punish move.

 

[LRodC]

If we're going to play the "Luigi up smash, but it's on Luigi so who cares" card, Doc needs some serious attention with his up smash. That move is pretty nutty.

Worst up smash might be Dedede. Slow, terrible hitbox, wildly unsafe, and doesn't kill. No reason to use it over up tilt basically anywhere.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It still kills at reasonable percents and has good range. I think Jigglypuff has the worst up smash due to an almost complete lack of disjoint or range at all past her body. It also has high cooldown and poor power that doesn't compensate enough for it. It's just a completely inferior version of Wario's up smash with no invincibility.

 

[EternalFlare]

I'd say best usmash goes to Mario, mostly due to the combination of high character pick rate, raw power, and ease of use. I'll take it as a given that Olimar's purple usmash is also good, I simply don't use him enough to judge.

Other notable usmashes I can think of are Luigi/Dr. Mario (face it, they're pretty similar to Mario's), Rosalina (similar in function, if not power; Luma helps), and Ganondorf (stupidly safe for its power). Lucas, ZSS, Bayonetta, and Palutena go into the "novelty" category for their size and, in Lucas's case, raw power.

Sheik and Diddy can score kills off of their usmashes too, but Sheik needs a sweetspot and a read while Diddy confirms out of a banana, which means he can do basically any move he wants so I'm not sure the smash itself is anything special.

Yeah I was reluctant to mention Diddy for that reason. As his confirms are what makes the move stand out, not really the move itself which is average at best in neutral.

Plus even if you do count it due to the confirms, it kills significantly later than the other mentioned examples and is highly unsafe on block or whiff. So it's less threatening in that sense.

Edit:

While we're on the topic Ness's up Smash is one of the worst in the game. The hitbox isn't bad but it won't start killing until 190+ without rage. And the space it covers, Ness has far better options for.

In front of him Ness has grab. Behind him he has bair. And right above him he has SH uair or uptilt. So the only use I can see for the move is when you don't know which side they'll end up on when they hit your shield and want an OOS option that covers all around him.

 

[LRodC]

Speaking on the subject of Jigglypuff... What exactly is the point of Rollout supposed to be? It's not powerful at all, it doesn't help recovery because it gimps you if you hit an opponent with it, it's unbelievably punishable on hit at low percents, and it has high start up. The only plus for this move that I can see is the ability to cross up shields for traversing the stage quickly, and even that is stopped by simply getting hit or repositioning. Is there any use for this move at all? It's one of the few moves that I think are useless in every single situation.

 

[Sinister Slush]

This is literally the ENTIRE match.

Hey now
It's Eggs AND dair.

Also to the Sky MU chart discussion last page, any of his Yoshi opinions he says should be ignored for now until he enters tournies or posts vids. He posted a snippet or two to some of us on Discord a couple months back but it wasn't anything fantastic tbh.

 

[meleebrawler]

Speaking on the subject of Jigglypuff... What exactly is the point of Rollout supposed to be? It's not powerful at all, it doesn't help recovery because it gimps you if you hit an opponent with it, it's unbelievably punishable on hit at low percents, and it has high start up. The only plus for this move that I can see is the ability to cross up shields for traversing the stage quickly, and even that is stopped by simply getting hit or repositioning. Is there any use for this move at all? It's one of the few moves that I think are useless in every single situation.

Rudimentary landing traps and scrub-stomping.

 

[Funen1]

Edit:

While we're on the topic Ness's up Smash is one of the worst in the game. The hitbox isn't bad but it won't start killing until 190+ without rage. And the space it covers, Ness has far better options for.

In front of him Ness has grab. Behind him he has bair. And right above him he has SH uair or uptilt. So the only use I can see for the move is when you don't know which side they'll end up on when they hit your shield and want an OOS option that covers all around him.

B-air behind Ness is 15 frames, not even as fast as N-air (10 frames). The one thing B-air does have over U-smash behind him is a bit longer range, but if people are spacing themselves where that's the only thing that would reach them, they're probably safe from it anyway. On the other hand, the one thing U-smash has over everything else is its speed behind him - technically 7 frames, not just 6, since you need to go through at least one jumping frame before you can cancel into U-smash, but otherwise it's just as fast as a shield drop and faster than any other OoS option Ness has.

So yeah, it's not a kill move, and that's a major point against it. But since it is Ness' fastest OoS option, it'll inevitably end up having some niche for that. I treat it like a poor man's Shoryuken - no invincibility to speak of, obviously, but fast enough to act like a reversal in the right circumstances, and it leaves Ness super open if he misses lol. Though on a separate note, I've also found use for U-smash as a way to reset juggles against people who are trying to land just outside of grab range (its long active hitbox helps here).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

B-air behind Ness is 15 frames, not even as fast as N-air (10 frames). The one thing B-air does have over U-smash behind him is a bit longer range, but if people are spacing themselves where that's the only thing that would reach them, they're probably safe from it anyway. On the other hand, the one thing U-smash has over everything else is its speed behind him - technically 7 frames, not just 6, since you need to go through at least one jumping frame before you can cancel into U-smash, but otherwise it's just as fast as a shield drop and faster than any other OoS option Ness has.

So yeah, it's not a kill move, and that's a major point against it. But since it is Ness' fastest OoS option, it'll inevitably end up having some niche for that. I treat it like a poor man's Shoryuken - no invincibility to speak of, obviously, but fast enough to act like a reversal in the right circumstances, and it leaves Ness super open if he misses lol. Though on a separate note, I've also found use for U-smash as a way to reset juggles against people who are trying to land just outside of grab range (its long active hitbox helps here).

Doesn't Ness's usmash start in front of him before arcing over his head? Does your 6 (7) frame number take that into account?

 

[L9999]

Doesn't Ness's usmash start in front of him before arcing over his head? Does your 6 (7) frame number take that into account?

When the swing starts from behind, the yo-yo has a hitbox. The opponent has to be right behind to hit though.

 

[Kofu]

Unless they are doing full jump approaches, I don't see GnW's up Smash anti-airing on reaction. Against short hops, it'd have to be a read. When it comes to catching landings, GnW would have to already be in position. If he has to follow DI and run up Up Smash last second just before they land, it's probably too slow for this purpose. Whereas most other Up Smashes would work.

USmash is used as a landing trap and an easy, safe punish for excess aerial pressure. It's also great as a baiting move since it only has 13 frames of endlag. It can also be used out of shield to stuff certain jabs and counterattack. It's a really great USmash, though its use is slightly atypical.

The only thing about it that really bothers me is its pitiful range.

 

[EternalFlare]

B-air behind Ness is 15 frames, not even as fast as N-air (10 frames). The one thing B-air does have over U-smash behind him is a bit longer range, but if people are spacing themselves where that's the only thing that would reach them, they're probably safe from it anyway. On the other hand, the one thing U-smash has over everything else is its speed behind him - technically 7 frames, not just 6, since you need to go through at least one jumping frame before you can cancel into U-smash, but otherwise it's just as fast as a shield drop and faster than any other OoS option Ness has.

So yeah, it's not a kill move, and that's a major point against it. But since it is Ness' fastest OoS option, it'll inevitably end up having some niche for that. I treat it like a poor man's Shoryuken - no invincibility to speak of, obviously, but fast enough to act like a reversal in the right circumstances, and it leaves Ness super open if he misses lol. Though on a separate note, I've also found use for U-smash as a way to reset juggles against people who are trying to land just outside of grab range (its long active hitbox helps here).

Fair enough. However at 6 frames, grab is 1 frame faster so that's still the best option in front of Ness. And behind Ness as previously mentioned, it will only hit fast if they are right behind him, otherwise it won't reach until the slower hitbox comes out.

USmash is used as a landing trap and an easy, safe punish for excess aerial pressure. It's also great as a baiting move since it only has 13 frames of endlag. It can also be used out of shield to stuff certain jabs and counterattack. It's a really great USmash, though its use is slightly atypical.

The only thing about it that really bothers me is its pitiful range.

When it's used to stop aerial pressure that's a read, not a direct punish. A punish would be if on reaction you up smashed an aerial approach. It's a decent landing trap versus characters with very limited air options and mobility. But most good characters won't have to land into it.

I agree it's a great Up Smash overall but I think it's outshined by at least 5 other Up Smashes in the game when it comes to usability in high level play where player's are respecting it and not just running into it.

 

[Lavani]

technically 7 frames, not just 6, since you need to go through at least one jumping frame before you can cancel into U-smash

You can input jump and the attack on the same frame, you don't need to wait.

 

[EternalFlare]

You can input jump and the attack on the same frame, you don't need to wait.

Are you sure?

I was under the impression you have to wait until at least 1 jump squat frame hence the name "jump cancel" .

Has it always been like this in all Smash games?

 

[Lavani]

Are you sure?

I was under the impression you have to wait until at least 1 jump squat frame hence the name "jump cancel" .

Positive. I wouldn't be posting if I wasn't.

 

[Nobie]

Not to steal Ffamran 's thunder further, but for whatever reason I've been thinking more about Falco lately. It's possibly because of what I mentioned, that he's a character with good frame data that's geared towards effective footsies, but that his lack of mobility and lack of "it" factor are what holds him back from being a stronger and more played character.

Falco has fantastic tools for footsies. He has a really good initial dash speed, top 10 walk speed, a frame 2 jab with decent reach, a frame 6 f-tilt that is fantastic for poking, and a frame 7 d-tilt that is not only fairly long range (longer than f-tilt) but also acts as a reliable kill move. Ask yourself how many characters actually have a poke that quick and deadly, and you'll find yourself coming up with a very short list.

On top of that, his Reflector's frame 1 reflect (fastest in the game) means that he can get away with reflecting projectiles in more situations than other characters. If the opponent reads a Fox roll, and the Fox tries to reflect it in time, there's a fair chance he might get hit before getting the Down B out. Falco can reflect at the very last possible moment, and because of the weird way it works, he can often win Reflector battles against even someone like Mewtwo.

But at the same time, he has to win neutral to get those reliable kills at later percents, which means having to get the opponent into his ideal zone of close-range footsies, and this is easier said than done. Either that, or he has to rely on some read-heavy tactics like spikes and f-smashes to get earlier KOs, and mobility still plays a role in that he often has to reset to neutral if knocking an opponent too far away.

It sort of feels like Falco is a lesser Ryu, someone who plays the footsies game with a variety of tools, only Falco has fewer tools (but arguably more well-rounded such as that f-tilt), and gets less reward. He's for someone who really, really loves playing in neutral, but in a way that's unfamiliar for many Smashers, as mostf his neutral tools are quite good but not overwhelming in any sense.

I think I may have mentioned this before months ago, but my impression is that Falco's player base also suffers from his very identity changing. Falco in Melee and Brawl was the king of shenanigans. You picked him because you wanted some sweet-ass combos/chain grabs, and he was all about just attacking with tricky options and absurdly powerful tools in advantage and neutral. Now, he's almost the opposite: a character that can fight, but has nothing that feels like an "X" factor. Those who remain are probably not the Falco mains of old.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I s2g Falco's Jab feels incomplete. Numerous times have I Jabbed someone, only for them to get a powershield out before the Rapid Jab kicks in. Is there some specific timing to that?

Funny enough, I also brainstormed ideas about what buffs Falco could gain to get, and my mind always went back to "what if Falco's Laser had Sheik's Gravity Grenade properties?" That single laser would grant Falco instant access to his amazing close range kit on hit due to the knockback and set up for super easy Usmashes and Bairs. Alas.

Ah well, at least his Usmash is incredibly good for what it does. May be one of the best ledge coverage options in the game.

 

[EternalFlare]

Not to steal Ffamran 's thunder further, but for whatever reason I've been thinking more about Falco lately. It's possibly because of what I mentioned, that he's a character with good frame data that's geared towards effective footsies, but that his lack of mobility and lack of "it" factor are what holds him back from being a stronger and more played character.

Falco has fantastic tools for footsies. He has a really good initial dash speed, top 10 walk speed, a frame 2 jab with decent reach, a frame 6 f-tilt that is fantastic for poking, and a frame 7 d-tilt that is not only fairly long range (longer than f-tilt) but also acts as a reliable kill move. Ask yourself how many characters actually have a poke that quick and deadly, and you'll find yourself coming up with a very short list.

On top of that, his Reflector's frame 1 reflect (fastest in the game) means that he can get away with reflecting projectiles in more situations than other characters. If the opponent reads a Fox roll, and the Fox tries to reflect it in time, there's a fair chance he might get hit before getting the Down B out. Falco can reflect at the very last possible moment, and because of the weird way it works, he can often win Reflector battles against even someone like Mewtwo.

But at the same time, he has to win neutral to get those reliable kills at later percents, which means having to get the opponent into his ideal zone of close-range footsies, and this is easier said than done. Either that, or he has to rely on some read-heavy tactics like spikes and f-smashes to get earlier KOs, and mobility still plays a role in that he often has to reset to neutral if knocking an opponent too far away.

It sort of feels like Falco is a lesser Ryu, someone who plays the footsies game with a variety of tools, only Falco has fewer tools (but arguably more well-rounded such as that f-tilt), and gets less reward. He's for someone who really, really loves playing in neutral, but in a way that's unfamiliar for many Smashers, as mostf his neutral tools are quite good but not overwhelming in any sense.

I think I may have mentioned this before months ago, but my impression is that Falco's player base also suffers from his very identity changing. Falco in Melee and Brawl was the king of shenanigans. You picked him because you wanted some sweet-*** combos/chain grabs, and he was all about just attacking with tricky options and absurdly powerful tools in advantage and neutral. Now, he's almost the opposite: a character that can fight, but has nothing that feels like an "X" factor. Those who remain are probably not the Falco mains of old.

The problem is Smash is a game with very effective short jumps and air mobility in general. So trying to play a Street Fighter footsy game is pretty difficult when most characters can just outspace and dance around you with very low commitment jumps/aerials.

It's one reason why Little Mac isn't top tier. He has absolutely insane frame data on the ground, probably the best of any Smash character in history, but that's just not enough.

Btw it's debatable if Falco has a better Ftilt than Ryu considering Ryu's (soft) Ftilt is disjointed on the tip (no hurtbox).

I agree that Smash 4 Falco left a bad taste in people's mouth. He lost all the advanced tech is he had in Brawl and Melee, making him initially seem like a shell of his former self.

 

[Nobie]

I s2g Falco's Jab feels incomplete. Numerous times have I Jabbed someone, only for them to get a powershield out before the Rapid Jab kicks in. Is there some specific timing to that?

Funny enough, I also brainstormed ideas about what buffs Falco could gain to get, and my mind always went back to "what if Falco's Laser had Sheik's Gravity Grenade properties?" That single laser would grant Falco instant access to his amazing close range kit on hit due to the knockback and set up for super easy Usmashes and Bairs. Alas.

Ah well, at least his Usmash is incredibly good for what it does. May be one of the best ledge coverage options in the game.

I don't know enough about the character but I think the jab is meant to be a mixup rather than a reliable chain. Jab, jab, rapid jab. Jab jab, shield. Jab, jab, ftilt. Jab, jab, fsmash. Jab, jab, grab. Etc.

 

[EternalFlare]

Also one more thing regarding Falco. What buffs did he really receive in Smash 4?

I mean he's had a great downtilt, ftilt and Up Smash since Melee. He's had an amazing jab since Brawl.

His recovery was buffed significantly from previous games but recoveries in general in Smash 4 are better than they have ever been so this doesn't really make Falco stand out either.

So I think former Falcos are ignoring him not because he's different but because he's simply far worse and the things he's good at he's been good at in previous games as well.

 

[zeldasmash]

Usmashes? Link's is pretty good (not great, but it's good) and Ganondorf's is just beautiful: Has reach, is disjointed, kills, does a lot of damage, can start combos and is safe on shield.

 

[EternalFlare]

Usmashes? Link's is pretty good (not great, but it's good) and Ganondorf's is just beautiful: Has reach, is disjointed, kills, does a lot of damage, can start combos and is safe on shield.

But like GnW's up Smash it has a very slow startup at 21 frames. So it won't work in most common punish situations, it's mainly a hard read tool or good for punishing full jump approaches.

Plus unlike GnW's up Smash, it doesn't have startup invincibility as far as I know.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

You know who's got a nice up smash? Ganon. Ganon has a nice up smash.

It's got range, low cool down, and some great kill power. Seriously, for being at the bottom of every tier list, he's got one of the best up smashes.

On a side note, I have no idea when or why this thread turned into the 4BR Up Smash Tier List but I guess I'll enjoy myself while I'm here.

 

[|RK|]

I believe Olimar's is stronger based off my testing (by about 7 percent. Which might be flawed considering the CPU doesn't DI optimally. Though no one's going to DI perfectly every-time anyway.

Plus it benefits a lot more from rage (Kirby's only has 20 BKB compared to Olimar's 50).

Olimar's is stronger, but Kirby's upsmash has 32 BKB, not 20.

 

[ぱみゅ]

GnW's aerial pressure is ridiculous, his aerial moves are fast and difficult to react to (sans Dair), plus he has an amazing aerial mobility to pair with them.
All of this adds up to GnW being very able to bait reactions, and thus, punishing harder.
These hard punishes include Fair, Uair, Judge, Dair and Smashes. Usmash is particular because it covers almost every disadvantage option: it's safe on jumping/drifting away, destroys airdodges, and most importantly, stuffs the opponents' attacks.
I'd say that Usmash is pretty freaking good, and even better since it's attached to a character whose toolkit makes it very effective (unlike Ganon's; the move is pretty good, but Ganon can't do a lot with it other than baiting approaches, and that won't work against someone who knows the matchup).

 

[EternalFlare]

GnW's aerial pressure is ridiculous, his aerial moves are fast and difficult to react to (sans Dair), plus he has an amazing aerial mobility to pair with them.
All of this adds up to GnW being very able to bait reactions, and thus, punishing harder.
These hard punishes include Fair, Uair, Judge, Dair and Smashes. Usmash is particular because it covers almost every disadvantage option: it's safe on jumping/drifting away, destroys airdodges, and most importantly, stuffs the opponents' attacks.
I'd say that Usmash is pretty freaking good, and even better since it's attached to a character whose toolkit makes it very effective (unlike Ganon's; the move is pretty good, but Ganon can't do a lot with it other than baiting approaches, and that won't work against someone who knows the matchup).

GnW's aerials don't come out any faster than average.

More importantly, most aerials startup in 10 frames or less making them impossible to react to by most humans making it a moot point. Instead when people "react" to aerials they're mainly reacting to the character's position and then assuming what aerial is about to follow. The exception is late aerials, usually nairs or dairs (as then you aren't reacting to the startup and thus have much more time to react).

And when GnW throws out aerials he better make sure they connect because his aerials have a lot of active frames and don't autocancel which make them pretty punishable on whiff.

So GnW's aerial to ground pressure is actually pretty limited.

 

[Nu~]

I think a better claim would be that G&W's air to air pressure is great.

Air to ground is kinda...awful T_T

 

[Luco]

Ness' Usmash would be broken if it (had priority? Not sure about this term anymore) didn't clank and have its hitboxes deactivated against every single other attack out there. The ability for it to catch landings is surprisingly good and if it went through attacks like Dsmash there'd pretty much be no counter-play against it for characters who can only stall a landing with DJ/upB.

Dsmash would also be fantastic for catching landings except that Ness is so vulnerable from above using Dsmash so retreating aerials would ruin it. Thankfully Dsmash is already godlike on the ledge so yeah.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ness' Usmash would be broken if it (had no priority? Not sure about this term anymore) didn't clank and have its hitboxes deactivated against every single other attack out there. The ability for it to catch landings is surprisingly good and if it went through attacks like Dsmash there'd pretty much be no counter-play against it for characters who can only stall a landing with DJ/upB.

Dsmash would also be fantastic for catching landings except that Ness is so vulnerable from above using Dsmash so retreating aerials would ruin it. Thankfully Dsmash is already godlike on the ledge so yeah.

Tangentially related, but I remember when I mained Ness back during the Brawl days, I always wished his Yo-yos were better. Like, Ness grab release aside, his Yo-yo's being borderline useless was the biggest sticking point for me. They're so much better now and pretty much how I always wanted them to be like (much like the rest of his kit in Smash 4).

Why don't I main this character

 

[MushroomKiller]

Oh geez, I take a break from Smash to splurge on Overwatch for a week (reached rank 60 woot) and talk blows up about two of my co-mains in my absence, of course.

Regarding Ness's design and its inherent strengths and flaws: Why is this thread so darn mercurial about Ness's viability? Seemed only a little while ago when everyone was speaking how overrated he is and how we're approaching the death of the character, and then just a couple posts later people are saying his kit's pretty strong even despite its flaws and that you can never count him out. I mean, I know the two aren't mutually exclusive opinions, but the tone behind the post shifts dramatically from abrasive cynicism to celebrating optimism.

I'm of the consistent belief that Ness will ALWAYS be a threat in tournaments, and will likely never stray from being a low-high tier/Top 20 character. As several people have mentioned by now, Ness has some of the best tools to work with in both his advantage state and his disadvantage state, combo-heavy tools at early-and-mid percents for the former and crazy good moves with raw kill power that can catch the opponent off-guard and set up a surprise comeback for the latter. As long as Ness retains such explosive strengths that can easily switch the momentum of a game in his favor, he'll always remain relevant despite his horrible match-ups against Sheik and Rosalina (the former of which I'm actually starting to reconsider. It's still an uphill battle for sure, but perhaps not the near auto-loss that I assumed it to be).

Regarding Yoshi and Sky's MU chart for him: Utter trash. You don't make special exceptions in MU numbers depending on the player you play against. If that specific player happens to utilize the tools of the character Yoshi is going against such that the MU numbers shift more towards their favor, then you use THAT number, since a MU chart is supposed to reflect how a character stacks up against each other when they're both played at their most optimum. Add to the fact that some of those MU numbers seem weird and highly out-of-place (-2 on Fox? Hell naw, -1 at worst; -1 on Ryu? Even and that's being 1 point generous to Ryu; +1 on Diddy? Since when did this stop becoming our worst top-tier match-up?), and yeah, you have a pretty questionable, if not downright inaccurate, list in itself.

 

[L9999]

Oh geez, I take a break from Smash to splurge on Overwatch for a week (reached rank 60 woot) and talk blows up about two of my co-mains in my absence, of course.

Regarding Ness's design and its inherent strengths and flaws: Why is this thread so darn mercurial about Ness's viability? Seemed only a little while ago when everyone was speaking how overrated he is and how we're approaching the death of the character, and then just a couple posts later people are saying his kit's pretty strong even despite its flaws and that you can never count him out. I mean, I know the two aren't mutually exclusive opinions, but the tone behind the post shifts dramatically from abrasive cynicism to celebrating optimism.

I'm of the consistent belief that Ness will ALWAYS be a threat in tournaments, and will likely never stray from being a low-high tier/Top 20 character. As several people have mentioned by now, Ness has some of the best tools to work with in both his advantage state and his disadvantage state, combo-heavy tools at early-and-mid percents for the former and crazy good moves with raw kill power that can catch the opponent off-guard and set up a surprise comeback for the latter. As long as Ness retains such explosive strengths that can easily switch the momentum of a game in his favor, he'll always remain relevant despite his horrible match-ups against Sheik and Rosalina (the former of which I'm actually starting to reconsider. It's still an uphill battle for sure, but perhaps not the near auto-loss that I assumed it to be).

is the new , opinions on him are bound to be bipolar. But I stand by your statement, clutch factor is too good (PKT2/Back Throw/D-Smash 2-frame).

 

[HoSmash4]

I don't think ness OOS needs anything else.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mewtwos upthrow is the very best kill throw in the game.
- It kills from everywhere on the stage in the same manner.
- Can hardly be DI't (90°)
- Has absurd high base knockback, making it exceptional stronger with rage and other multipliers.

Charizards upthrow would be stronger by stats alone most likely, but the angle kills it. Being able to kill slightly earlier in situational scenarios doesn't make it better.

And Charizard "having more rage" is not necessarily true. Mewtwo has the far superior disadvantage state and a very strong spacing and zohning game. Generally Mewtwo can avoid getting killed pretty well. Mewtwo profiting from rage is very likely. They are not that far apart.

I was curious about this so I looked into it.

Uthrow Weight Dependant:No base damage (8, 3) Angle:70 BKB: 50 KBG: 220
Uthrow Weight Dependant:Yes base damage:12 angle:90 BKB:72 KBG: 65

Almost any platform above Zard will make his the better throw from what I have checked even with the Pros Mewtwo's has.

More rage is due to the fact of this,

4 Charizard 116
57 Mewtwo 74

Charizard is the fourth heaviest in the game, Mewtwo is the second lightest in the game.

 

[HoSmash4]

Mewtwo is also a WAY better character than Zard even if you take away both uthrow. Zard uthrow relying on platforms to be better isn't as consistent if your opponent counter picks smart and plays anti grab under platforms.

 

[Luco]

In Charizard's favour, our stagelists do tend to include platforms which make his set-up more consistent. I remember sitting there in a LFs set trying to figure out what the hell to CP after FD was banned, looking at BF, DL, T&C, DH and even Lylat and SV and being like "This is abundantly silly."

If Charizard's wasn't so heavily DI-able it would probably be the best kill throw in the game just by virtue of our stagelist. It might already be. But Mewtwo's is damn strong anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^that is why I auto ban FD almost against every character.

Few exceptions are like Pikachu because I ban Lylat instead or potentially using FD as a counter pick against DK and specific characters.

Most of the time, you want to ban it though.

Mewtwo is a better character, I agree on that. What I am saying though is that I do think Zard has the better Uthrow even with the DI aspects of it given the abundance of platforms out stage list has.

 

[Pazzo.]

Really though, what super heavy character has worked in Smash (other than Snake)?

What are they missing to make them more viable?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Really though, what super heavy character has worked in Smash (other than Snake)?

What are they missing to make them more viable?

Being overtuned with janky hitboxes, it's what made Snake work.

Past that, they need better disadvantageous states. That is one of the largest problems all of them share.

Maybe slightly better neutrals as well but the disadvantageous state is a huge one.