Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Strong-Arm]

I do think as of now a lot of the cast has a lot of untapped potential, or is just being underplayed. This smash is easily the most balanced yet.
I also think we shouldnt be shouting for nerfs.

 

[Das Koopa]

Even more relevant to Pit discussion: Earth out at 33rd, losing to Takera (Ryu).

also Abadango and Umeki are out too lmao (33rd and 49th)

 

[Quantumpen]

Aba out, lost to a villager. What is this tournament?

Choco, Aba, Earth , Umeki already out

 

[FullMoon]

Aba out, lost to a villager. What is this tournament?

Choco, Aba, Earth already out

It's a Japanese tournament

 

[Aaron1997]

Also Aba, Umeki and Earth where out placed by a Zelda and Zard

 

[Kofu]

Aba out, lost to a villager. What is this tournament?

Choco, Aba, Earth , Umeki already out

Mewtwo vs. Villager is likely even or slightly in Villager's favor.

Also Japan tends to have better Villagers than the West. I can only name two notable Villager players (BC. and Villyness) IIRC.

 

[Quantumpen]

Taiheita is so hype. I was upset that Aba lost because I love watching Mewtwo, but I think this'll do just fine =p

They have so much character variety... such a different meta. They don't seem to have Sheik players lol

 

[Das Koopa]

Mewtwo vs. Villager is likely even or slightly in Villager's favor.

Also Japan tends to have better Villagers than the West. I can only name two notable Villager players (BC. and Villyness) IIRC.

MJG, SS, and Aarvark

 

[Megamang]

Hmmm, good question Das Koopa . I would hazard a guess that Roy doesn't have a winning MU with those, and maybe Bowser Junior.

On the other hand, lots of times you have a character that does surprisingly well given relative power level, but it isn't even. From my examples, Roy does good enough vs some of those and Bowjow actually does better than you'd think. Like most people, my Bowser Jr knowledge is severely lacking. Given the timing of this tournament right now, is there a high profile Bowser Jr that I'm unaware of?


Also, doing a little investigating on Taiheita on youtube, it seems Lucas is forcing Kamemushi off of Megaman. PK Fire is pretty damn annoying to deal with, his grab game is powerful enough to contest leaves + OoS metal blade meaningfully, so it makes sense. He is also much harder to edgeguard than ness.

KuroganeHammer mentioned that he thinks Lucas is a straight upgrade to Ness. It certainly feels like it in this MU, because I believe Mega comfortably beats Ness but Lucas is a much more fearsome opponent.


Ryu is totally fine right now, but TSRK does stand out as stupidly powerful. He 'feels' right with his hard hits when his aerials do ridiculous damage, and the high hitlag really feels SFesque. TSRK feels dumb when you barely die, since almost nothing is as powerful as it without MAJOR drawbacks, ie charged bowser Fsmash. You just keep going up lol. Its not a major balance issue, but it does really blow some characters out of the water.


I'd guess that Japan's apparent lack of shiek might have to do to the higher skill density? Shiek has more close games, and close games aren't as good as just shutting someone down, and as Shiek you can lose to rage power way before you can win with rage, so she probably has a hard time with consistency. This is something Zero would say about prepatch shiek, where he conflated his personal struggle with his character with balance.

 

[Kofu]

MJG, SS, and Aarvark

Heard of MJG and I believe SS (don't know their regions though) but Aar[d?]vark is new to me.

The point still stands that none of them are a threat at a high/top level (AFAIK). Japan has had better success with the character, most obviously with Ranai but recently with a few others. I think the highest a western Villager has ever placed was Capt. Awesum when customs were enabled (where Villager is a notably better character even without ledge camping).

 

[FullMoon]

Shiki is out and Lea has to go through Taiheita and managing that either Ken or Rain

Yeah I think this is as far as Greninja is going in this tournament. Shame Some couldn't attend.

 

[Megamang]

Considering the amount of times I'm referred to as MegaMan, I'd guess that Aarvark resents people for thinking a letter difference is a typo and not the result of the very strange thought process that goes into most smasher's names.


I still think Nicolas Rage would have been a great tag.

 

[Ffamran]

What's on another level is how over nerfed Bayonetta was. Not how players react

Whats worrying is that this is the trend now. See: MK, ZSS. Who's next?

I'd argue that Meta Knight and ZSS along with Diddy, Luigi, Sheik, and even Bowser -- remember how his U-throw was re-tuned? --weren't "over nerfed" like how Bayonetta was. What they could do, they can still do, but in a much, much toned down way. They kept something. Call it a game plan, a tool, a style, or a niche. Whatever they had that was very powerful, was kept, but toned down -- re-tuned if you want to be nice or if you want to be blunt, nerfed in a way that they still kept a part of their identity. Bayonetta didn't. What she had wasn't toned down. What she had wasn't reduced in "range" like how Luigi can still use D-throw to setup his "Luigi combos", his "Luigi thing", but within a stricter range where he can't combo whenever and also setup for KO percents at the same time. What Bayonetta had was a nerf that damaged, removed, a part her identity. She can combo, but it's just not like how she combos anymore, especially when 2 of her prominent setups and followups are made to be unreliable. They could have been re-tuned to have stricter ranges, but they were not. They were made to not be things that say, "Bayonetta". She lost something that defined her, her niche.

Without a niche, there's really no point in playing a character other than for the character itself. Take Marth. Unrewarded for his spacing, the mechanic he was based around on. When characters who space normally or even sloppily, but get rewarded just as much or even more than Marth, what's the point of Marth? People play Marth for his tippers; for that something that nobody else has. That was Marth from his transition from Brawl to Smash 4. Marth now? Holy ****, he is fun to play because his tippers do something; his niche does something. It's defining, it's satisfying, and it's just Marth. Before that, absolutely frustrating. You'd do everything in your power to play Marth, but people would just outdo him. You'd try to make up shortcomings by working on areas Marth is capable of, but does not excel in. Marth can edgeguard, but that's not his specialty. That's not his shtick. Edgeguarding would go to someone like Jigglypuff or the Pits. You end up spreading Marth thin.

Annnnd... I just reiterated what Emblem Lord just said a few posts after yours. Sorry, Emblem Lord, I didn't want to steal your thunder. I just write and stuff comes out of my head.

Rosa. She's the only character I can see that the devs would nerf to the extent of mk/zss nerfs. Maybe cloud as well.

That happened in 1.0.4. Greninja also was a recipient. Key thing here: they didn't lose their niche. Rosalina's still a defensive wall and Greninja's still this ambush, "ninja character". They're just not that crazy anymore even if Rosalina is that crazy for some people.

I do feel balance is overrated, but Brawl's metagame was in shambles and MK/IC's being completely borked was part of it. My issue with Smash 4 is everyone getting weaker. It's why I get hype for Mewtwo because he gets stronger and stronger, the way I feel patch cycles should be.

I feel like people, and I'm not exempt from this, are confusing balance with something... I feel like what people think of balance is where there's no bad MUs, everyone has access to all tools, and that it's all about skill. That ends up making a really boring game. It becomes monotonous when there nothing crazy happening. And I think this comes from the fact that Melee and Brawl were extremely imbalanced. Hypocritically, people ask for over-tuned and broken tools while asking for those that aren't on their characters to be nerfed severely without regard to what defines the character, but that's another story.

Anyway, what I think people "want" is a game where people are on "equal" footing. Going to be difficult to word this, but it'd be a game where there are bad, but not severely bad, borderline unwinnable MUs; there would be common tools characters have access to, but characters specialize in them differently e.g. everyone can anti-air, but some characters have much more potent or reliable anti-airs; and that there is a focus on skill -- why wouldn't there be? --, but MUs do have an affect e.g. you can't expect say, a grappler to not have trouble against a zoner. As there's imbalance, you end up with a game where things are never the same e.g. where it's never jack of all trades who happens to be kind of a rushdown vs. jack of all trades who happens to be kind of a zoner. Basically, it's never Mario vs. Mario or Mario vs. Pit. It's something like Fox vs. Marth or Sheik vs. Bowser. It'd be unpredictable and exciting since you'd never know. That suspense is what makes it fun

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

Heard of MJG and I believe SS (don't know their regions though) but Aar[d?]vark is new to me.

The point still stands that none of them are a threat at a high/top level (AFAIK). Japan has had better success with the character, most obviously with Ranai but recently with a few others. I think the highest a western Villager has ever placed was Capt. Awesum when customs were enabled (where Villager is a notably better character even without ledge camping).

Aarvark is the best villager main here in Socal.

 

[LancerStaff]

best Lucas worldwide

Hmm, that's an interesting one. Odd matchup on an obscure character...

Pit's really good at midrange, just outside of Zair and PK Fire range. Since Pit's way faster and he has arrows, he can just play at a long range, though it's not effective because the low damage + PSI Magnet healing. Magnet doesn't actually shut down arrows though,,, For example you can shoot around Lucas to stuff or slow down approaches while avoiding Magnet, though I don't think it's sane to snipe him around Magnet. Pit can charge arrows and I think react to Lucas dropping Magnet, though it's more important offstage because you can wait until he absolutely has to recover.

Pit kinda treats him and Ness the same way, though Ness has the Fair of doom while Lucas namely has Zair for recovery. Ness I think is good matchup to consider Dark Pit because he can hang offstage and wait for Ness to PK Thunder and Electroshock it, Lucas less so because of the aforementioned Zair. Lucas has his own problems, like that PK Thunder's so laggy he's getting shoved off with GOs into helplessness lol. Not entirely sure how it plays up close and I hate ratios so w/e.

Ryu's a bit of a question mark since finding people who don't just throw out random SRKs are a rarity, but Pit's obviously got enough to compete. Seem to remember EL saying that much... Focus Attack is basically a non-issue, Hadokens aren't even useful against Dark Pit, SRK combos are very escapable, and Tatsu's very gimpable. Probably even Electroshock gimps. Ryu's range isn't great for the most part and his mobility isn't special either, so there's going to be a lot of Pit outspacing him. If Pit is good enough at avoiding SRK then it really could be in his favor.

 

[Kofu]

Considering the amount of times I'm referred to as MegaMan, I'd guess that Aarvark resents people for thinking a letter difference is a typo and not the result of the very strange thought process that goes into most smasher's names.


I still think Nicolas Rage would have been a great tag.

I didn't know if it was a misspelling on Das Koopa's part or the actual tag. That's why I stuck a ? in there, lol.

Villager not having much rep over in the West intrigues me but as I play the character I can kind of understand it. The character is very strong at first glance but his weaknesses become very apparent if you can't mix up your playstyle. Having a frame 3 jab and NAir (as well as Lloid) essentially give him options to deal with his weaknesses but it takes a smart player to get a lot out of him. Ranai is such an intelligent player that it's fascinating to see him play and use Villager's tools so specifically.

 

[KamikazePotato]

So why not nerf Ryu to make him more difficult to get the kill confirms or that if he fails to connect the kill confirm he is punished more severely??? why nerf Ryu advantage state that would make him more boring to play, when you can make him so he need to win neutral more often to connect the kill confirm??

There is no one-size-fits-all solution to game balance. You have to look at each case accordingly and decide what is out of hand, and how it would affect the rest of the game if it was changed.

Take Ryu's Shoryuken, for example. It's true that hit-confirm-into-Shoryu is Ryu's big thing right now. It's pretty much his signature trait. Here's the thing though - even if that hit-confirm was nerfed to kill a whopping 20% less in most cases, Ryu would still be a very good character and fun to play. Hit-confirm-into-Shoryu would still kill very early for what it is - just not ridiculously early like it does now. Currently, murdering people at 50% with something like that is absurd.

But let's say that you like the fact that it's absurd, and want to nerf other parts of Ryu. Let's make it so that it's harder to get the confirm, it's more difficult to win neutral, ect. Would that actually leave Ryu in a state where he's still fun to play for his fans? I don't think so. It would turn Ryu into an exremely gimmicky character - underwhelming except when landing the one tool that makes him viable. Jigglypuff is like that with Rest, and we see how that turned out.

Oh, so you want to just buff other characters instead, and not nerf Ryu? Sure. Suddenly Ganondorf is killing at 50% mid-stage with an uncharged Fsmash because it's the only way to let him keep up with Ryu, who has superior frame data/recovery/projectile. Shoryu doesn't seem so unique and cool anymore now, does it? People would just start complaining that other characters can do the same thing more easily.

 

[Man Li Gi]

This is pathetic.

No other word for it really. No adaptability whatsoever. Tyroy showing his true colours.

He was picking up Mewtwo and other characters in preparation of the nerfs. He knew it was BS. He personally told me. That being said, casting shade on someone who wants to progress and win, shouldn't be condemned lest you're spiteful. Are you spiteful?

 

[BunbUn129]

This is pathetic.

No other word for it really. No adaptability whatsoever. Tyroy showing his true colours.

Tyroy is playing to win, after all. Nothing morally wrong with dropping a character right after they're gutted.

 

[Appledees]

To be honest there is no reason to use Bayo at all over other high/top tiers unless you really like the character and even then I find it really hard to even use the character considering how much of her design is outright gutted and dysfunctional.

Like seriously can you really blame him for dropping Bayo here

 

[KamikazePotato]

There's nothing wrong with a dropping a character period, ever, in any situation. They're fictional characters, for christ's sake. Bayonetta's feelings aren't exactly going to be hurt if people stop playing as her. Ike is one of my favorite characters of all time, but I still dropped him during Smash 4, version 1.0.0, because he was so atrociously bad that it was tough to get any enjoyment out of him.

And if someone prioritizes winning over everything else, so what? Winning is fun. People like winning. There would be no competition if people weren't trying their best to win. And while we all root for the low-tier underdogs, no player is ever under any obligation to play them. Playing a certain character is fun, but winning is also fun and important, and it's up to each player to decide who they feel like playing at any given moment.

 

[Das Koopa]

Umebara 23 Top 8/16

FILIP
vs.
Kamemushi > Kamemushi wins

Nietono ,
vs.
Kie

Raito
vs.
Rain

Yuzu
vs.
YOC


9th: Nyanko
9th: Tsu-
9th: Fuwa
9th: Kappamaki
13th: Kuro
13th: Kept
13th: Taiheita
13th: Brood

 

[Megamang]

Bayo let Tyroy punch above his weight for her reign as a ridiculous character. She was beginning to show weakness already, and now she probably won't provide the same service for him.

I mean, he was in a private game with ESAM and Dabuz doing labwork. Characters are tools, and he used this one to his advantage. If he will continue to show strength, we will see. He wasn't beating JJRockets before Bayo, so I'd imagine JJ will be the strongest player in this region for the forseeable future, but maybe not.

 

[KamikazePotato]

There are 15 unique characters in that Top 16. The only repeated character (used as a main and not a secondary) is Duck Hunt. Japan's meta is fun to see.

 

[Aaron1997]

Yet again DH gets top 8 at a Japanese tourney with top players. This time it wasn't even Brood or Yusan. But yet this character is still bottom 10 because of recovery and kill problems. DH strengths might be good enough to out weight the weaknesses when you get a really good player that understands him.

BTW fun fact: DH has more top 8 placings in Japan then Fox lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

Umebara 23 Top 8/16

FILIP
vs.
Kamemushi > Kamemushi wins

Nietono ,
vs.
Kie

Raito
vs.
Rain

Yuzu
vs.
YOC


9th: Nyanko
9th: Tsu-
9th: Fuwa
9th: Kappamaki
13th: Kuro
13th: Kept
13th: Taiheita
13th: Brood

LMAO the only truly repeated character is Duckhunt (Nietono only used MK against Yuzu's Rosa for games 1 and 2, then switching back to Diddy).
I still have no idea how they do it.

 

[BunbUn129]

@Amadeus9

MK was not over-nerfed. A reliable confirm that worked at 30% and KOed the entire cast was stupid, and removing it was the right thing (even if it still exists in a weaker form).

Whether you think he's top-, high-, or mid-tier, he works just fine and his kit is overall functional, even if he's significantly weaker and can be frustrating at times. You have a solid neutral game thanks to his mobility and frame data, an amazing recovery, flexible landing options, good combo potential, and excellent KOing ability. An optimized MK can take you from 0-50% after incorporating footstools and pivots, and while the mid-game may feel somewhat lacking with his reduced reward, a read or two can fill the gap, and then your opponent has to avoid everything from dash attack, SL OoS, up smash, f smash, d tilt set-ups, and his whole edge-guard kit to survive.

Saying he's over-nerfed sounds entitled IMO. Yeah, having an unconvincing MU spread against the top-tiers isn't nice and all, but newsflash, he isn't the only character with this problem.

Right now the only character who may be over-nerfed--time will tell--is Bayonetta.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fwiw, the amount of 'upsets' is completely out of control at this tournament, even by japanese standards.

 

[Nobie]

Here's a thought:

Perhaps Witch Twist is supposed to be a Get Off Me move more than a combo starter now. It's still Frame 4.

I think the original intent of Bayo was to have strong combos that were difficult to start up, but Witch Twist kind of negated that.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Nobody

Bayo getting the only changes after 2 months should be indicative that this was probably the last balance change.



I wouldn't be fine because neither of my preferred characters (R.O.B, Fox) would be very good. Fox might have a leg up since he'd have his stupid jab infinite, but the point remains that the game would've collapsed under the weight of becoming a repetitive and boring spectator sport. Less viewers, less incentive to sponsor, less entrants, less majors, less exposure, etc.

Melee's lack of diversity is made up by the movement options and tech that make it engaging and allow for a diverse meta and constantly changing matchups/matchup perception. Smash 4 does not have the same depth in movement, meaning it'd take less time to "Figure out" the meta.

I don't see how Diddy grabbing is comparable to Shine at all. Shine requires skill and precision to use effectively. Against Diddy, it's a matter of "Don't get grabbed!" against a character with an astoundingly good neutral game that would've been quickly made apparent if players had been left time to not just coast by on Dthrow>Uair. The Shine is a versatile move applicable in numerous situations for numerous purposes, and Fox in general is extremely hard to use well in spite of how good his options are, but Diddy basically gets by free on grabbing > up airing you into oblivion. Players would start playing to avoid getting grabbed because of how devastating the consequences wold be. What does that spell? Less aggression.

The fact that a lot of gameplay would come down to "Don't get grabbed by Diddy/Sheik", "I'm going to run&gun with Sonic, "I'm gonna wall out and time out with Rosa", "Don't get hit by Bayo's combo starters", etc, the game would've inevitably become very defensive because displaying much of any aggression can be a death sentence and the game lacks the movement options for you to be extremely aggressive.

like I guess maybe it's "more fun" to you but the imbalance this game would've had would be very Brawl-esque, not Melee-esque. We aren't talking infinites, freestyle movement options, etc, we're talking about characters with oppressively good defensive toolsets and damage building

Brawl is its own thing and I'm not going to act like it's skill-less or uncompetitive but I'd really like to see Sm4sh thrive as a game and slowing the game's pace to a crawl and butchering its diversity are very good ways to kill the competitive scene. Brawl had many problems, but it's hard to deny that the speed and lack of diversity where two very huge issues, with little that's flashy to compensate for it.

Mind you I detest the idea of no patches even more because I don't even agree with the idea that Smash 4 is homogeneous. There are examples of certain character being worse versions of existing ones, but... most of the widely used cast is pretty distinct visually and in playstyle.

I said pre nerf diddy's Uair = shine. You're taking the comparison too far though. It's not entirely 1:1.

The fact that a lot of gameplay would come down to "Don't get grabbed by Diddy/Sheik", "I'm going to run&gun with Sonic, "I'm gonna wall out and time out with Rosa", "Don't get hit by Bayo's combo starters", etc, the game would've inevitably become very defensive because displaying much of any aggression can be a death sentence and the game lacks the movement options for you to be extremely aggressive.

The characters would've envolved pasted their basic game plan because of competition. You can't play the same exact game plan and expect not to get scrapped once everyone starts to really get good. Grab loses to hitboxes and running away depends on the stage control; you can't run away forever and it's not even rewarding if you're not in the lead.

I think you were entirely forgetting that brawl mechanics heavily influenced how it was played. Tripping nerfed movement options, hitstun canceling pretty much punished you for hitting them, strong SDI means multi hit moves are dangerous to use, planking and repititive ledge camping plagued the game even worse, shields were extremely good, broken spot dodges (falco, D3), and ridiculous reward for camping (grenades, lasers, pikmin, etc...) made brawl really defensive orientated (even players like nairo, mr r, Leon, mikenko, and otori existed and were successful). Smash 4 has noooone of that.

Also

Melee's lack of diversity is made up by the movement options and tech that make it engaging and allow for a diverse meta and constantly changing matchups/matchup perception. Smash 4 does not have the same depth in movement, meaning it'd take less time to "Figure out" the meta

Smash 4 has a lot of undeveloped tech that probably won't be seeing use in a while. Bidou, PP, dance trotting, and all the other movement stuff you can see in this thread is hardly exploited enough. Character-specific traits are/were not exploited enough. The game in general was/is not exploited. Melee had +10 years to get it right. We only had 1 and some months.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1st - Kamemushi
2nd - Rain
3rd Nietono
4th Yuzu

5th FILIP
5th Kie
7th Raito
7th Yoc

9th Fuwa
9th Kappamaki
9th Nyanko
9th Tsu-

13th Brood
13th kept
13th Kuro
13th Taiheita

* Kamemushi used Cloud/Wario and Nietono used Corrin but neither won anything with them.
* Rain took games off Kamemushi with Sheik but lost the set
* A charizard player named Asuteka got 17th
* KEN, the winner of the previous Umebura, placed only 17th
* Shu was the highest placing Bayonetta, also at 17th
* Abadango placed only 33rd, eliminated by a Villager player [after losing to kept's Villager at the previous Umebura]
* Earth placed 33rd, Umeki even worse at 49th

 

[Das Koopa]

Umebara 23 Top 16 (May 20th) (Japan) (219 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Kamemushi ,
2nd: Rain , ,
3rd: Nietono , ,
4th: Yuzu
5th: FILIP
5th: Kie
7th: YOC
7th: Raito
9th: Nyanko
9th: Tsu-
9th: Fuwa
9th: Kappamaki
13th: Kuro
13th: Kept
13th: Taiheita
13th: Brood

 

[Meru.]

* Kamemushi used Cloud/Wario and Nietono used Corrin but neither won anything with them.

Kamemushi took a game with Cloud against Nietono's Sheik in Winners Finals.

 

[bc1910]

Japanese tournaments are so crazy. Were pools Bo1 though? I think that has a lot to do with upsets like this.

 

[Nobie]

This game sure is boring and homogenized

But seriously, if nerfing Sheik gave characters like Mega Man a fighting chance and we got matches like that, then I think we're okay.

Edit: Isn't Fuwa the Marth Player Earth's fiancee?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kamemushi took a game with Cloud against Nietono's Sheik in Winners Finals.

Good catch!

 

[juddy96]

Japanese tournaments are so crazy. Were pools Bo1 though? I think that has a lot to do with upsets like this.

Pools were bo1 yes, but if you look at who the players lost to in bracket as opposed to their placing, that determines if it's an actual upset (most of these cases absolutely were). That way seeding isn't a factor.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Noo not the reign of KEN and Sonics. Who did he lose to?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok Pit talk time.

Since the game came out people have referred to the Pits as solid characters with all the tools to win. But if that is the case, why aren't they making a bigger splash? At first glance they seem to be more functional then say Ike another swordsman, but the results don't reflect that.

Pit and Dark Pit imo are ironically the "Ryu" type in this game. Jack-of-all trades, but a master of none. This would mean they can play any situation or position relatively well right? Hmm, the thing is though, I am not so sure about that. The results and the frame data do not reflect two characters that are good. I suppose good is subjective, but this is a competitive community and people want to see a return on their investment. So with that in mind let us say that good means "can top 8 at a regional with strong players, and do so consistently". With this thought in mind we can instantly disregard the Pits. There are a slew of characters that are scarier and more devastating. Not to mention much more consistent.

But what's the problem? They have decent range, solid burst options, disjointed hitboxes due to their blades, good recovery and nice KO power right? Well, lets look at the data. They seem to have solid buttons at first glance but in reality their grounded pokes are underwhelming and pretty darn unsafe. Pits D-tilt is frame 6 and -13 on SHIELD DROP?!? That is abysmal and it only does 6% on hit and leads to no guaranteed follow-ups. Contrast that to say Mewtwo who also has a 6 frame d-tilt but his is -3 on shield drop (crazy) and we get a clearer picture of how under tuned this move really is. Yes it has huge range for a tilt but it is not scary or threatening in anyway. It can lose to SH approaches like all dtilts and loses to shield as well which is uncharacteristic of most swordsman dtilts. Ike's dtilt is ONE FRAME slower, but safer and DOES lead to combos. It is -8 on shield drop. Nintendo has me scratching my head on this button here because the garbage data doesnt justify how small the reward is for the Pits.

What about f-tilt? Lots of people felt this was THE poke that all pokes should aspire too. It covers a good amount of space, decent damage, nice start-up time at 10 frames too. However it is also VERY unsafe at -15 on shield drop. It can kill decently well at the ledge. It kills Mario on FD, no DI around 110%. But then you have Ike and Marth. Ike's ftilt is slower at 13 frames but at also safer at -12 and does more shield pushback. Kills a bit earlier. About 5% sooner. Marth's ftilt....lolz. Frame 8. -10 on shield with tipper. Kills at 95% at the ledge of FD. Again Nintendo....I don't get it. Granted Pits ftilt has a ton of range, but that range doesnt do anything to mitigate how unsafe the button is. Its an ok punish, but Pits f-smash has the same start-up so any situation where you could ftilt you could f-smash instead for deadlier results.

Burst options in neutral is another category they receive praise for. A good dash attack and dash grab keeps foes guessing at mid range. While its true these options are speedy, they are not what I would call scary. D-throw leads to real combos at low percents, but no death conversions. Dash attack is fast and beats alot of stuff, but again it doesnt lead to anything. And of course it isnt safe. If thats the game you want to play, then you could play MK or Captain Falcon. They do that part of the neutral better AND have safer ground buttons.

Ok, well how about aerials? Overall they are solid actually, but Pit has the same problem Marth did before the buffs he got to his nair. Pit lacks flow from his SH air game to his ground game. He has nair and fair as auto cancels which definitely helps, but he cannot suddenly transition from an aerial based offense and go right into grounded mix-ups or pressure. This makes him more predictable. It makes him less threatening.

Specials are pretty good. Giving him a well rounded neutral game. He has a projectile, a reflector, and a super armored attack that lets him punish predictability. His projectile however isn't scary. It doesnt set up for anything. It can gimp opponents that are far off stage or annoy opponents that are on stage. That is about it. He cannot keep up constant pressure. His reflector does its job and allows him to stay in the game vs other projectile users. Solid option. But not game changing. Mewtwos reflector doubles as a command grab that does 12%. Something to think about. His side b lets him blow through an option in order to do decent damage. However its not particularly fast, is very unsafe, and doesn't kill well. Though Dark Pit's does kill better then Pit's.

So now onto recovery. Recovery is good as we all know. 3 jumps and a far reaching up b. If the Pit's aren't killed they should always make it back right? Yeah, but not without some broken limbs. See their up b has no hitbox. So its childs play to challenge. The Pit's are pretty easy prey to spike attempts, stage spikes if they mistime a tech and off stage harassment in general. Someone like Cloud can easily smack them with a dair through the stage.


IMO the only thing they really excel at is edgeguarding, but they arent even the best at that. Everything else is mediocre. At first glance it seems like they have all these solid tools. But when you inspect the data and then make direct comparisons to other similar tools in other characters arsenals, the Pit's fall short and look weaker and weaker by comparison.

They are the characters you pick to learn the game. Training wheels. They have no flaws that may cause you to lose a match, but they definitely don't have the juice that will help you win or allow you the creativity to develop your personal style. They are not dynamic enough or threatening enough. They have no niche. No trait they are dominant in. No incredible ability that is all their own. No Diddy banana control game, no Sheik godlike neutral and amazing bouncing fish, no ZSS zair and throw game, no Cloud limit system and limit cross slash and yeah.....no Ryu TSRK confirms that kill at ungodly low percents.

Even if you think they are good, there are just too many characters that can do what they do, but better/safer/faster/easier. And for me, thats evidence to show they just aren't good enough.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ok Pit talk time.

Since the game came out people have referred to the Pits as solid characters with all the tools to win. But if that is the case, why aren't they making a bigger splash? At first glance they seem to be more functional then say Ike another swordsman, but the results don't reflect that.

Pit and Dark Pit imo are ironically the "Ryu" type in this game. Jack-of-all trades, but a master of none. This would mean they can play any situation or position relatively well right? Hmm, the thing is though, I am not so sure about that. The results and the frame data do not reflect two characters that are good. I suppose good is subjective, but this is a competitive community and people want to see a return on their investment. So with that in mind let us say that good means "can top 8 at a regional with strong players, and do so consistently". With this thought in mind we can instantly disregard the Pits. There are a slew of characters that are scarier and more devastating. Not to mention much more consistent.

But what's the problem? They have decent range, solid burst options, disjointed hitboxes due to their blades, good recovery and nice KO power right? Well, lets look at the data. They seem to have solid buttons at first glance but in reality their grounded pokes are underwhelming and pretty darn unsafe. Pits D-tilt is frame 6 and -13 on SHIELD DROP?!? That is abysmal and it only does 6% on hit and leads to no guaranteed follow-ups. Contrast that to say Mewtwo who also has a 6 frame d-tilt but his is -3 on shield drop (crazy) and we get a clearer picture of how under tuned this move really is. Yes it has huge range for a tilt but it is not scary or threatening in anyway. It can lose to SH approaches like all dtilts and loses to shield as well which is uncharacteristic of most swordsman dtilts. Ike's dtilt is ONE FRAME slower, but safer and DOES lead to combos. It is -8 on shield drop. Nintendo has me scratching my head on this button here because the garbage data doesnt justify how small the reward is for the Pits.

What about f-tilt? Lots of people felt this was THE poke that all pokes should aspire too. It covers a good amount of space, decent damage, nice start-up time at 10 frames too. However it is also VERY unsafe at -15 on shield drop. It can kill decently well at the ledge. It kills Mario on FD, no DI around 110%. But then you have Ike and Marth. Ike's ftilt is slower at 13 frames but at also safer at -12 and does more shield pushback. Kills a bit earlier. About 5% sooner. Marth's ftilt....lolz. Frame 8. -10 on shield with tipper. Kills at 95% at the ledge of FD. Again Nintendo....I don't get it. Granted Pits ftilt has a ton of range, but that range doesnt do anything to mitigate how unsafe the button is. Its an ok punish, but Pits f-smash has the same start-up so any situation where you could ftilt you could f-smash instead for deadlier results.

Burst options in neutral is another category they receive praise for. A good dash attack and dash grab keeps foes guessing at mid range. While its true these options are speedy, they are not what I would call scary. D-throw leads to real combos at low percents, but no death conversions. Dash attack is fast and beats alot of stuff, but again it doesnt lead to anything. And of course it isnt safe. If thats the game you want to play, then you could play MK or Captain Falcon. They do that part of the neutral better AND have safer ground buttons.

Ok, well how about aerials? Overall they are solid actually, but Pit has the same problem Marth did before the buffs he got to his nair. Pit lacks flow from his SH air game to his ground game. He has nair and fair as auto cancels which definitely helps, but he cannot suddenly transition from an aerial based offense and go right into grounded mix-ups or pressure. This makes him more predictable. It makes him less threatening.

Specials are pretty good. Giving him a well rounded neutral game. He has a projectile, a reflector, and a super armored attack that lets him punish predictability. His projectile however isn't scary. It doesnt set up for anything. It can gimp opponents that are far off stage or annoy opponents that are on stage. That is about it. He cannot keep up constant pressure. His reflector does its job and allows him to stay in the game vs other projectile users. Solid option. But not game changing. Mewtwos reflector doubles as a command grab that does 12%. Something to think about. His side b lets him blow through an option in order to do decent damage. However its not particularly fast, is very unsafe, and doesn't kill well. Though Dark Pit's does kill better then Pit's.

So now onto recovery. Recovery is good as we all know. 3 jumps and a far reaching up b. If the Pit's isn't aren't killed they should always make it back right? Yeah, but not without some broken limbs. See their up b has no hitbox. So its childs play to challenge. The Pit's are pretty easy prey to spike attempts, stage spikes if they mistime a tech and off stage harassment in general. Someone like Cloud can easily smack them with a dair through the stage.


IMO the only thing that really excel at is edgeguarding, but they arent even the best at that. Everything else is mediocre. At first glance it seems like they have all these solid tools. But when you inspect the data and then make direct comparisons to other similar tools in other characters arsenals, the Pit's fall short and look weaker and weaker by comparison.

They are the characters you pick to learn the game. Training wheels. They have no flaws that may cause you to lose a match, but they definitely don't have the juice that will help you win or allow you the creativity to develop your personal style. They are not dynamic enough or threatening enough. They have no niche. No trait they are dominant in. No incredible ability that is all their own. No Diddy banana control game, no Sheik godlike neutral and amazing bouncing fish, no ZSS zair and throw game, no Cloud limit system and limit cross slash and yeah.....no Ryu TSRK confirms that kill at ungodly low percents.

Even if you think they are good, there are just too many characters that can do what they do, but better/safer/faster/easier. And for me, thats evidence to show they just aren't good enough.

Honestly, they're not even well-rounded Like that since they're not strong zoners. Sheik's more well-rounded.