Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

>The last major stronghold of jank in the game is toppled.
>People complain that the meta is becoming homogenized.

Guys... guys... guys... stop... In the long run, we'll see that Bayo losing her 0-deaths is actually a really good thing for this game. Worst case scenario, Bayo has been knocked down to maybe Villager or Ness's level which isn't Linkin Park levels of angst worthy as some people are implying it is. Good lord... the fact that she can probably be counterpicked now and no longer has the most blowout matchups in the game by a wide margin is fantastic. Even if it was arguably "too much", you have to admit that it was still a really good thing for this game.

 

[PK Gaming]

i feel like people are not liking the game's balance state because of how one dimensional majority of the cast is and the method to balancing them. There is almost nobody that can do it all; no one can zone, Rushdown, play patient, go really aggro, or just play how you want to. There's a right and wrong way. Some people liked the brawl top tiers because they were so deep and were flooded with options. MK could literally do what he wanted and that was fun and while he wasn't fair to the rest of the cast, the oligarchy of brawl (MK, ICs, Olimar, Diddy, Snake, etc..) were pretty close-knitted and allowed enough variety within that small pool of rich characters.

I sure would love to be proven wrong and I want to see my ignorance, but idk; there's hardly anyone really "deep", just viable.

We did have a character who do it all in Smash 4; pre 1.15 Sheik.

Anyway, I don't agree. I don't think the Smash 4 characters are any less "free form" than the Brawl characters. If anything, the slower game speed, hitstun cancelling, planking and various crutches (chains grabs, infinites, etc) only made the game and its top tiers far less deep than you're implying.

Like, I think there's a mountains worth of difference in watching an intense set between NickRiddle and MVD, and watching... this.

 

[aεrgiα]

to be honest, the only character that really could do everything in brawl was metaknight, not all the top tiers, and well thats kinda the reason he was the best in the game... overpowered tools are fun, when youre playing the character thats got them, but i would much rather take the variation smash 4 has to offer. instead of having an aggressive meta knight fight a defensive one, id much rather have an aggressive zero suit vs a defensive rosa, aka people picking their character based on their prefered style of play rather than people picking the same character and playing him according to their prefered style of play...

 

[sedrf]

Like bayonetta was some world beater as people said.
Lets all take the kuro route and start talking about

 

[juddy96]

Like bayonetta was some world beater as people said.
Lets all take the kuro route and start talking about

There is an actual player in Japan named Kuro (he's pretty good actually) but he plays

 

[Baby_Sneak]

We did have a character who do it all in Smash 4; pre 1.15 Sheik.

Anyway, I don't agree. I don't think the Smash 4 characters are any less "free form" than the Brawl characters. If anything, the slower game speed, hitstun cancelling, planking and various crutches (chains grabs, infinites, etc) only made the game and its top tiers far less deep than you're implying.

Like, I think there's a mountains worth of difference in watching an intense set between NickRiddle and MVD, and watching... this.

I'm talking about the characters period, not the system. Smash 4 system >>>>>>>>> brawl system. However, brawl top tiers had way more options that allowed more individuality. I'm not saying you can't achieve that here, it's just that it's more evident in brawl (or melee and other fighters that grew w/o patches).
Also, this this and thiiiis (especially last game last stock).

@aergia (how do you get that "e" like that?), diddy could zone with popgun and bananas, falco could use his lasers as a form of approach to get Dthrow combos and Gatling combos, snake couuuld do a bit of aggro, but he encompassed multiple forms of defensive play better, Olimar was the strategist that robin wished he could be with his ridiculous ability to make the entire stage his, and Marth was just a fei long in brawl. MK was ridiculous with his options, but his weaker peeps were not that far behind at all, contrary to what A LOT of people think.

 

[Nobie]

Traveling currently so I can't say a lot but this conversation comes down to the following:

In Melee, top characters were so versatile that players adapted their characters to themselves more than the other way around.

In Smash 4, players have to conform to their characters more than vice versa because they're built to have limitations.

Whether you prefer a game where the sky's the limit or one where you must work around the limitations offered, both can be fun.

 

[sedrf]

zero released a video about ryu.
So with bayo being out of the picture for awhile lets give our thoughts of the rest of the dlc crew

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Traveling currently so I can't say a lot but this conversation comes down to the following:

In Melee, top characters were so versatile that players adapted their characters to themselves more than the other way around.

In Smash 4, players have to conform to their characters more than vice versa because they're built to have limitations.

Whether you prefer a game where the sky's the limit or one where you must work around the limitations offered, both can be fun.

sheik, diddy, mewtwo, ROB, and potentially cloud are characters that I think may not be that type. Based on their moveset and meta, I think they are the ones to go to for that thirst of options. What do you think? What characters do you think hosts enough options for players of former games used to having a plethora of options to enjoy (not nearly enough of course, but enough to have a sense of familiarity-ish).

 

[hypersonicJD]

zero released a video about ryu.
So with bayo being out of the picture for awhile lets give our thoughts of the rest of the dlc crew

Mewtwo is looking really good right now. High tier material. Roy sucks. Ryu is maybe one of the best characters in the game with some really good kill confirms. Cloud is still on the top tiers thanks to his utility and good MU. Corrin is still high tier even with her nerfs.Lucas is quite honestly really left alone. He has so much potential. That tegher grab is still one of the best in the game, his combo game is quite good with nair and down throw. He has a kill confirm at 100% or a bit more. Most of the DLC is very unexplored

 

[Das Koopa]

By the way Tyroy's dropped Bayonetta.

So... there goes the best American Bayo lol

 

[Nu~]

sheik, diddy, mewtwo, ROB, and potentially cloud are characters that I think may not be that type. Based on their moveset and meta, I think they are the ones to go to for that thirst of options. What do you think? What characters do you think hosts enough options for players of former games used to having a plethora of options to enjoy (not nearly enough of course, but enough to have a sense of familiarity-ish).

We talk about diddy's gameplan versatility quite often here, but is he really? His game plan is fairly simple.

Easily out-button your opponent (over half of the cast) in neutral, punish whiffs with banana and punish with grab.
Rinse and repeat that until dtilt confirms into a smash attack.

 

[Big-Cat]

Traveling currently so I can't say a lot but this conversation comes down to the following:

In Melee, top characters were so versatile that players adapted their characters to themselves more than the other way around.

In Smash 4, players have to conform to their characters more than vice versa because they're built to have limitations.

Whether you prefer a game where the sky's the limit or one where you must work around the limitations offered, both can be fun.

I prefer this. I believe the best things come out of constraints.

 

[Mario766]

I think Zero needs to review the definition of underrated.

Because Ryu is 100 percent not underrated.

 

[Shaya]

By the way Tyroy's dropped Bayonetta.

So... there goes the best American Bayo lol

Not really surprising.
I wouldn't normally (I wonder if I've ever not as a joke) called a top player as such, but Tyroy is legitimately a tier ***** through and through and has consistently chosen to play the characters which require the least amount of character/match up specific adaptive skills to succeed with.

He'll be a great indication for which is the next best character in terms of effort/reward, or if the results drop off for a while (the next few months) whether Bayonetta was bolstering him as much as people claimed.

Oh, and being an effective in such a role is actually not that easy (having several good characters under your belt is no cake walk), so I'm not trying to undersell his overall player skill by the statement.

 

[DblCrest]

Greninja getting some love from 'My Smash corner' :>

Das Koopa
That was way too quick man... patch was only yesterday even.

 

[Djent]

Umebura 23 is starting soon and staff have confirmed that they're running 1.1.6. Pools will begin shortly on SHI_Gaming!

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja getting some love from 'My Smash corner' :>

Das Koopa
That was way too quick man... patch was only yesterday even.

Man people have been asking for that video for ages now lol

Glad to see it was finally done though

 

[TurboLink]

I think Zero needs to review the definition of underrated.

Because Ryu is 100 percent not underrated.

What exactly did ZeRo say was underrated about Ryu? What makes him underrated in his opinion?

Also, all that talk about good/great frame data a page ago and no one mentioned Mario/Luigi?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

We talk about diddy's gameplan versatility quite often here, but is he really? His game plan is fairly simple.

Easily out-button your opponent (over half of the cast) in neutral, punish whiffs with banana and punish with grab.
Rinse and repeat that until dtilt confirms into a smash attack.

Diddy's item game is really unexplored. Nobody tries to throws it on the ground and camp, or do repeated ZACs combos. Granted banana is much weaker, but I see potential for zoning.

 

[Fatmanonice]

zero released a video about ryu.
So with bayo being out of the picture for awhile lets give our thoughts of the rest of the dlc crew

Roy- Little Mac with a sword. Aside from Mii Sword Fighter, probably the worst swordsman in the game.
Ryu- A lot like Peach: really good options but heavily weighed down by their learning curve.
Cloud- No worse than top 10. Basically Mario with double the range and quadruple the reliable kill options.
Corrin- Basically the new gatekeeper for high tier, ousting the Pits of this role. Comparable to Ness/Villager.
Mewtwo- Like Fox and Mario, an all around solid character whose weaknesses are largely irrelevant with good strategy.
Lucas- A heavily slept on character that might as well go comatose because hardly anyone plays them.

 

[Mario766]

What exactly did ZeRo say was underrated about Ryu? What makes him underrated in his opinion?

Also, all that talk about good/great frame data a page ago and no one mentioned Mario/Luigi?

He uses underrated in exchange for underplayed.

He made a video about it for Peach as well, which is basically the same position. She isn't underrated, hell

She may even be overrated by people.

She just isn't played.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

zero released a video about ryu.
So with bayo being out of the picture for awhile lets give our thoughts of the rest of the dlc crew

I think Roy is a pretty decent character overall, although he is flawed in several areas. His range is somewhat lacking compared to most other sword fighters, his recovery is not good (although it is not as bad as most people make it out to be), he lacks autrocancels, and his properties make him fairly easy to combo. His biggest weakness in my opinion is his initial dash to shield / other action lag being high in comparison to the rest of the cast, as it prevents him from being able to make use of his solid normals as much as he can in the neutral. That being said, he has many strengths I feel a lot of people tend to overlook. The landing lag and endlag of most of his normals are pretty low, making him good at pressuring, chaining hits together, and creating trap situations. His aerials low endlag also give him superb edge guarding abilities despite his high falling speed. While his sword range isn't as good as other swordfighters, relative to the cast, it still is very good. The disjointed hitbox combined with his moves low landing / endlag, make roy pretty good at walling out certain characters. Other advantagous Roy has are having a much better grab game than most sword fighters due to his throw setting up into more combos / trap situations, and having very good mobility to aid his pressure game. I feel Roy will become much better over time when his playerbase and representation increase.

 

[Radical Larry]

Here I am, yet to post an opinion about Bayonetta, and I'm sitting here looking at the reactive comments about her and stuff. You know, there's a thing for this; it's called waiting for things to happen or try making new things happen. Like her re-arranged angle on Afterburner Kick Down. Even though it's no longer able to combo into itself, it's still great for her recovery since now the opponent gets sent away from her, which can be beneficial.

But yes, she's spayed. No argument there, but if you react too much, you'll lose sight of what's supposed to become of her: New Opportunities.

 

[Ropalme1914]

I think Zero needs to review the definition of underrated.

Because Ryu is 100 percent not underrated.

Just watch what people were saying right before Trela won 2ggt: Fresh Saga. People were putting Ryu like, not even a contender for top 10.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here I am, yet to post an opinion about Bayonetta, and I'm sitting here looking at the reactive comments about her and stuff. You know, there's a thing for this; it's called waiting for things to happen or try making new things happen. Like her re-arranged angle on Afterburner Kick Down. Even though it's no longer able to combo into itself, it's still great for her recovery since now the opponent gets sent away from her, which can be beneficial.

But yes, she's spayed. No argument there, but if you react too much, you'll lose sight of what's supposed to become of her: New Opportunities.

It's important to know EXACTLY what the nerfs mean for Bayonetta before getting into a tizzy:

1. She is never going to zero-death anyone with functional reflexes and/or basic understanding of SDI again.
2. Divekick no longer has skewed risk-reward. It's a fast-moving safe-on-block poke, nothing more, nothing less (attack-wise).
3. Witch Twist and Afterburner Kicks can be countered with SDI... BUT still give good combos if that doesn't happen. So they are still good tools, you just can't use them all the time to start or extend combos.

With all this in mind, this nerf will weed out the bandwagoners leaving only the dedicated Bayo players willing to explore all of her options.

 

[bc1910]

By the way Tyroy's dropped Bayonetta.

So... there goes the best American Bayo lol

This is pathetic.

No other word for it really. No adaptability whatsoever. Tyroy showing his true colours.

 

[Quantumpen]

Bayonetta's nerfs where pretty bad, the SDI multiplier on witch twist/ABK didn't really need to be doubled. The fact that you can SDI out of the second witch twist on reaction is a little unfortunate, she ideally should be able to get good damage from her combos, just no kills. It's not even clear that's the case anymore... I can certainly understand why a lot of players who mained her for reasons other than love of the character are dropping her.

She might turn out alright, but she's not Sheik or Diddy, it's not like she excelled at every aspect of smash. She kinda was her combo game and that's gone, so she's gotten a lot weaker and it's not easy to see exactly how she'll work now.

She has enough strong buttons to never fall below middle of the pack, but I can't really see her being much better than that.

 

[PK Gaming]

zero released a video about ryu.
So with bayo being out of the picture for awhile lets give our thoughts of the rest of the dlc crew

Roy

In Fire Emblem 6, Roy has a brief period of time where he's pretty decent. The enemies you fight at the beginning are mostly Axe users and everyone knows that Swords beat Axes. So Roy's basically enjoying himself here and having the time of his life, dodging low accuracy moves like a boss and making a fool out of his enemies, but then something happens. You stop fighting just axe dudes, and the enemies that can actually hit Roy start to appear appear. At first it's one. Then 2. And then soon it just ends up being the norm and poor Roy ends up being largely worthless. His incarnation in Smash is basically how he is in Fire Emblem 6.

Ryu

Did you know: In Street Fighter V, Ryu eschews the standard "all around" design for something similar to how he is in Smash Bros. In short, he does a ridiculous amount of damage in both Smash and SFV, and is basically a character you don't want to mess with. Could be purely coincidental, but it's nice to think that possibly took inspiration for how he was presented in Smash. In any case, he's obnoxiously powerful but I can't say I mind that much. Really adds a flavor to his character, though I figure i'm probably one Ryu match away from changing my tune.

Cloud

I believe Smash is the first fighting game where Cloud is considered great. He was trash in the original Dissidia game and mediocre in the sequel, though he is obviously quite good here. I think Smash does a significantly better job of capturing the "spirit" of Cloud than his other incarnations. Just like in FF7 he's quick, powerful, and deals explosive damage. Limit is obviously a huge point of contention for many people, and i'm not sure how I really feel about it. I suppose i'm satisfied with its implementation for now. But yeah Cloud's cool and I'm still taking his presence in Smash Bros for granted.

Corrin

(Corrin describing literally every character he beat to get into Smash Bros)

Lucas

Lucas is alright but the most important thing to note is that he actually gets pantsed in his source game, lmao. Think about that the next time you get rocked by him.

Mewtwo

Truth be told, I cringed at the idea of him coming back to back to Smash. Not because I hated playing him in Melee (I loved him there), but because I hated Mewtwo period. (I always was more fond of Mew). But I gotta say, I love how he plays in Smash 4. He finally exudes power, and feels like the perfect representation of this man-made Psychic God.

 

[KamikazePotato]

This is pathetic.

No other word for it really. No adaptability whatsoever. Tyroy showing his true colours.

Yeah, it sure is cowardly to try and win a competition.

 

[webbedspace]

Honestly the fact that Bayonetta mains have been recieving even more abuse (triumphant mocking, even louder shouts of "fraud") as a result of the nerfs is making me very dissatisfied with the community's seeming maturity.

 

[sedrf]

This is pathetic.

No other word for it really. No adaptability whatsoever. Tyroy showing his true colours.

We live on a forum dedicated to better to the competetiive advancement of a children's game so yeahBut yeah lets make little miss sally special because even if their character isn't that good at least he can be a special snowflake ina kid's game.

Maybe the fact that in completions maybe people want to improve and instead of theory crafting a character of a dubious placing just go back to your old character or a top tier

Honestly and people get upset when the mods or veterans chew you out.

 

[bc1910]

To drop her not even 1 day after the nerfs is ridiculous if it's true, I'm afraid. I don't care about competition - this is a different level. It doesn't breed a good mindset for competitive play and will hurt Tyroy in the long run no matter who he plays.

sedrf I'm struggling to see how the above is anything but irrelevant waffle.

 

[sedrf]

Maybe bayo just isn't that good.Maybe changing characters who are better is a more viable option instead of just a weaker character is better .

 

[Charoite]

Well all people that used bayo for being a top tier are jumping the ship there are much better characters and more easy too, people that liked bayo design jumped the ship because now she is some weird bait and punish character and not a combo character, in short why would you play a poor man's MetaKnight with a poor man's Za warudo.

Her bad matchups got worse and with how popular these 2 are, you will have a hard time in national or even regionals brackets

incomplete Characters or character who cannot play their design correctly aren't appealing, even if these character arent necessary bad,is even worse when better versions:

There's little reason to stay with , there little metagame advanced compared to other top tiers(even worse because few top players play she), there are easier character to use that are better , so yes the only legitimate reason to use bayo is if you loved her as a character that was untouched(not her design that was nuked).

 

[Amadeus9]

What's on another level is how over nerfed Bayonetta was. Not how players react

Whats worrying is that this is the trend now. See: MK, ZSS. Who's next?

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

What's on another level is how over nerfed Bayonetta was. Not how players react

Whats worrying is that this is the trend now. See: MK, ZSS. Who's next?

Rosa. She's the only character I can see that the devs would nerf to the extent of mk/zss nerfs. Maybe cloud as well.

 

[Charoite]

Any top or high character that has good advantage state so:

 

[Pancracio17]

pretty sure patches are over, this one seemed more like a bug fix thanks to public outcry, the fact that they only changed one char and no one else points to that

 

[Cereal Bawks]

But Ike is still low tier on Japanese tier lists. Patches can't be finished until Japan thinks he's top tier.