Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Envoy of Chaos]

Mentioning Ranai, what is Villager considered? Lower than top 10?

From what I've seen and heard he's in the upper half of the roster, ranking between 15-25 which I think is a great spot for him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mentioning Ranai, what is Villager considered? Lower than top 10?

Villager has never been considered top 10 except in Japan. Not sure if that's still the case with Ranai having been absent for a while. Other Villager players, especially kept, have kinda held it down for a while so there's a slight chance that some people in Japan still have him in top 10. I really doubt it though. They still have a very high opinion of Cloud who seems to be among Villy's worse matchups.

 

[EternalFlare]

Bair autocancels. lolwut.

Hate that term btw. Bair also has 12 frames of landing recovery. That is like..the opposite of big commitment.

You seem like an intelligent dude. Don't *** pull ok? Otherwise I might have to go verbal Super Saiyan on ya. Then Shaya and Thinkaman gotta hand out 80 billion warnings and I get banned yet again, shucks its just a mess.

Bair autocancels if done immediately in a short hop. That's not going to hit low opponents. So pretty much only relevant versus tall opponents that happen to be right next to you as you do it. I would have thought that was obvious. I mean uair autocancels too, how relevant is that when it comes to air to ground pressure.

I don't mean you can react to the landing lag directly of bair. But you can react to the bair startup+cooldown+the landing lag. The total time is way more than 12 frames. And then suddenly it's not hard to punish on whiff.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't mean you can react to the landing lag directly of bair. But you can react to the bair startup+cooldown+the landing lag. And then suddenly it's not hard to punish on whiff.

and then he turns around and dtilts you for massive damage/death

 

[EternalFlare]

and then he turns around and dtilts you for massive damage/death

How is he downtilting you when in lag?

Besides it's not like downtilt will beat out any move you try anyway. It will only really beat dash grabs but dash attacks will still work. You can just go for a raw TSRK as the other poster suggested which will beat any late punish attempt. But if you have to take risks like that to win, that's hardly the mark of a top tier.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Villager has never been considered top 10 except in Japan. Not sure if that's still the case with Ranai having been absent for a while. Other Villager players, especially kept, have kinda held it down for a while so there's a slight chance that some people in Japan still have him in top 10. I really doubt it though. They still have a very high opinion of Cloud who seems to be among Villy's worse matchups.

Ironic, I asked this morning in the Cloud board about the matchup and nothing. Do you know of any particular example matches or anything you saw/read to say that Cloud beats Villager? I've only found Ranai vs Komorikiri matches from January.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

My biggest question right now is exactly how good is Mewtwo? He is top 10 for sure, but where does everyone think he'll end up? Top 5? Top 3? No. 1? No. 7? Where?

 

[EternalFlare]

My biggest question right now is exactly how good is Mewtwo? He is top 10 for sure, but where does everyone think he'll end up? Top 5? Top 3? No. 1? No. 7? Where?

Top 5 probably.

He has it all. Mobility, kill power, great hitboxes, a very good disadvantageous state and a great projectile. His only real weakness is being light and historically in Smash, some of the lightest characters have also been some of the best (Melee Puff, Brawl MK etc) so I don't believe that's enough of a con to make him not amazing.

And if you look at the results he's the best performing DLC character thanks to Abadango. You could argue he's not a solo Mewtwo main but regardless, most of his big wins comes from him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

M2 beating Sheik but losing to Diddy is a tradeoff I wouldn't like to take. The other way around would be much better.
I dunno how he does against Cloud and Rosa(think he beats Rosa slightly? not sure) but I think the character's legitimately godlike and has a bunch of really insane tools for how easy they are to abuse. Fair, dtilt, uthrow/bthrow and shadow ball are all crazy moves that almost any character would kill to have.
Top 5 wouldn't be a surprise, as in my head he's roughly even with or slightly below Fox and above Mario.

 

[EternalFlare]

Speaking of Mario what would be his worst matchup anyway? Does he even have any 40-60s?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Probably Rosa or Sonic.
It's hard to to tell because he has a solid amount of top tier -1s/45:55 MUs but Rosa Marth and Sonic all look bad.

 

[Ulevo]

Mewtwo's biggest problem is that he has fast run speed and ground to air transition but is not an overall fast character, so mobilizing and positioning correctly with him is difficult compared to the other top tiers. And when you are that large and light, it is a big deal, particularly when you can't muscle through the CQC of characters like Sheik or Diddy because their normals are faster. That's why you always see Abadango back rolling even when it is potentially predictable.

 

[blackghost]

That's debatable.

If you can solo win a US major [Category 3 on @Das Koopa's ranking] in freaking SoCal Socal with the likes of Void, Larry, Marss, Mr-r, falln, Tyrant and Mr E in attendance, citing results to support the claim that Bayonetta is top 5 is probably legitimate.

the funy thing is (as many people have shown) that lineup of top players doesn't feature one non aggro player. even falln is a very aggro rosa in comparison to most others. that helps a lot. between no campy shiek, no sonic, and no mario she is very viable.
also not sure how much good bay experience even the general top player has at this point.

 

[Ethan7]

Probably Rosa or Sonic.
It's hard to to tell because he has a solid amount of top tier -1s/45:55 MUs but Rosa Marth and Sonic all look bad.

I always heard Mewtwo beats Rosa. I don't know about Mewtwo beating Sheik but I heard Diddy Beats Mewtwo by a decent margin. What do you think about Mewtwo VS Sheik?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ironic, I asked this morning in the Cloud board about the matchup and nothing. Do you know of any particular example matches or anything you saw/read to say that Cloud beats Villager? I've only found Ranai vs Komorikiri matches from January.

There's also Tweek vs Ranai from Shots Fired 2 if that's the tournament.

 

[Aaron1997]

Zage's Match-up chart for Pac-man. Most of these are normal to see in most Pac match-up charts except a few.

Being Pac's worst Match-up? I don't see it. Sure Pac can't kill very well but Pac has a better neutral intill Aura kicks in and even then if the Pacman plays it correctly, He should be fine anyway. It only gets ugly if Lucario gets the fruit at High Aura. Also Pac can Pellet Aura Sphere for healing.

Being Harder then Marth is something i'm been thinking for a while and Zage seens to agree. Her being a "safer" Marth is what makes the difference.

This is a strange one because a lot of Pac's believe this is bad but some of the Top level Pac's think otherwise. (Sinji thinks the same way)

 

[FeelMeUp]

I always heard Mewtwo beats Rosa. I don't know about Mewtwo beating Sheik but I heard Diddy Beats Mewtwo by a decent margin. What do you think about Mewtwo VS Sheik?

Sheik's only bad MU.
He zones like we do and has a reflector.
He trades with us a lot and does triple the damage.
He controls the ground better than we do.
His fair does 13% for some reason.
He doesn't combo better than us but his combos do more damage.
Ledge trapping him isn't easy.
Edgeguarding isn't easy.
This MU would be mostly even if not for the worst thing:
Rage uthrow.

 

[Nu~]

View attachment 114494

Zage's Match-up chart for Pac-man. Most of these are normal to see in most Pac match-up charts except a few.

Being Pac's worst Match-up? I don't see it. Sure Pac can't kill very well but Pac has a better neutral intill Aura kicks in and even then if the Pacman plays it correctly, He should be fine anyway. It only gets ugly if Lucario gets the fruit at High Aura. Also Pac can Pellet Aura Sphere for healing.

Being Harder then Marth is something i'm been thinking for a while and Zage seens to agree. Her being a "safer" Marth is what makes the difference.

This is a strange one because a lot of Pac's believe this is bad but some of the Top level Pac's think otherwise. (Sinji thinks the same way)

I'm not seeing pac beating Lucas.

The combination of pk fire and zair are enough to make zoning a living hell for pacman. Pacman can't even be near the hydrant when Lucas uses PK fire on it.

Add in faster buttons in cqc and you have a matchup that kinda blows.

 

[verbatim]

Being Pac's worst Match-up? I don't see it. Sure Pac can't kill very well but Pac has a better neutral intill Aura kicks in and even then if the Pacman plays it correctly, He should be fine anyway. It only gets ugly if Lucario gets the fruit at High Aura. Also Pac can Pellet Aura Sphere for healing.

Aura invalidates pellet healing, since you literally cannot ever misjudge when to use it.

I think -2 is too much, but Pacman does not have very good tools for dealing with Lucario.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Besides it's not like downtilt will beat out any move you try anyway. It will only really beat dash grabs but dash attacks will still work. You can just go for a raw TSRK as the other poster suggested which will beat any late punish attempt. But if you have to take risks like that to win, that's hardly the mark of a top tier.

What is compelling Ryu to Bair at the apex of his hop? With the startup Bair has, Ryu is at full liberty to just stall his hop, daring you to come after him, and then Bairing you when he's near the ground. There, you either shield the hit and take that far-greater-than-twelve-frames shieldstun, spotdodge it while Ryu finishes landing lag before your spotdodge is finished, roll forward and take a TSRK for your trouble, or hope you powershield the hit while also hoping Ryu actually Baired in the first place instead of mixed you up.


I am honestly surprised Ryus do not use this move more in neutral. Ryu gets an obscene amount of reward and pressure as he closes the gap with SH falling Bairs.

 

[TheGlove]

I'm not seeing pac beating Lucas.

The combination of pk fire and zair are enough to make zoning a living hell for pacman. Pacman can't even be near the hydrant when Lucas uses PK fire on it.

Add in faster buttons in cqc and you have a matchup that kinda blows.

Funnily enough Mekos just beat Zage 3:1 at road to shine. Whole set was a giant zoning war and it seemed like zage had a hard time getting anything set up when Mekos could just pelt him with PK Fire. Lucas's reflector played a not insignificant part in this match as well.

 

[Nu~]

Funnily enough Mekos just beat Zage 3:1 at road to shine. Whole set was a giant zoning war and it seemed like zage had a hard time getting anything set up when Mekos could just pelt him with PK Fire. Lucas's reflector played a not insignificant part in this match as well.

Ah that's right, forgot about the fsmash.

That's just insult to injury lol

 

[Deleted member 269706]

View attachment 114494

Zage's Match-up chart for Pac-man. Most of these are normal to see in most Pac match-up charts except a few.

Being Pac's worst Match-up? I don't see it. Sure Pac can't kill very well but Pac has a better neutral intill Aura kicks in and even then if the Pacman plays it correctly, He should be fine anyway. It only gets ugly if Lucario gets the fruit at High Aura. Also Pac can Pellet Aura Sphere for healing.

Being Harder then Marth is something i'm been thinking for a while and Zage seens to agree. Her being a "safer" Marth is what makes the difference.

This is a strange one because a lot of Pac's believe this is bad but some of the Top level Pac's think otherwise. (Sinji thinks the same way)

Alright, I have a few questions...I should put up this disclaimer though, I know next to nothing about the character (besides the fact that his grab is pretty bad and Japanese Pac-man dittos are God's gift to mankind).

Anywaysss. You already answered my first question, which was why does he think that Lucina does better than Marth? I understand that you believe her to be "safer", but I want to know what exactly you're suggesting within that statement? In what situations does Lucina thrive where Marth wouldn't be able to? Or is it not a situational matter, but rather the consistency of the character?

My other question is, what gives Pac-man the edge over Diddy and Luigi to such a notable extent (seeing as he gave them their own "ranking")? Similarly, what is it that makes the MU bad on Falcon's end? As I mentioned, my knowledge in regards to this character and his MUs are laughable, but when I (try to) piece together what I do know, I would've never imagined these three characters losing to Pac-man.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What is compelling Ryu to Bair at the apex of his hop? With the startup Bair has, Ryu is at full liberty to just stall his hop, daring you to come after him, and then Bairing you when he's near the ground. There, you either shield the hit and take that far-greater-than-twelve-frames shieldstun, spotdodge it while Ryu finishes landing lag before your spotdodge is finished, roll forward and take a TSRK for your trouble, or hope you powershield the hit while also hoping Ryu actually Baired in the first place instead of mixed you up.


I am honestly surprised Ryus do not use this move more in neutral. Ryu gets an obscene amount of reward and pressure as he closes the gap with SH falling Bairs.

It straight up loses clean to disjoints any char that doesn't need to challenge. So basically it's good vs non top tiers.

The chars that have less metagame relevance.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pac-man does not have the advantage against Diddy Kong.

 

[Nu~]

Pac-man does not have the advantage against Diddy Kong.

Again with the one sentence contentions I see

Why do you think pacman doesn't have the advantage? I'm curious

 

[soniczx123]

Pac-man does not have the advantage against Diddy Kong.

There's a reason why Aba CP Pac-Man vs Zinoto at CEO. Not only as a surprise counterpick, but also because the M2 Diddy MU is **** and Pac-Man has the advantage. How do you think he survive the abundance of Diddy back in the beginning of the game??

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy's neutral game is drastically superior to Pac-Mans.
Pac-Man does not have good enough an advantaged state to threaten Diddy's disadvantaged state.
Diddy's toolkit allows for enough non-commitment to shut out Pac's KO options for the most part [this is true for a lot of matchups that involve Pac-Man]. In order for a character to win a matchup like that he needs to be able to get into a favorable position enough times to consistently pull ahead of his opponent. In the Diddy vs Pac matchup that can virtually only happen if the Diddy player repeatedly runs into Pac's defensive walling tools.

Pac does have a pretty good disadvantaged state that allows him to wiggle his way out of big damage dealing strings, potentially allowing him to go even with Diddy. But claiming an advantage against a top 3 character with virtually no observable data to back it up is preposterous and nothing else.

How do you think he survive the abundance of Diddy back in the beginning of the game??

... he didn't.

 

[HoSmash4]

A few of Mewtwo's weaknesses asides from huge hurtbox and being lightweight include awkward double jump, bad roll frame data, fastest move is frame 6 in general. This makes his OOS options lacking especially on his back. Also Mewtwo's grab hitbox is unorthodoxly high. It's part of the reason why he struggles somewhat vs short characters such as Diddy. Mewtwo's ledge options are not outstanding either.

Mewtwo benefits greatly from the fact that he and Marth are the only characters to rise from low-mid tier to high-top tier. This means counterplay to Mewtwo is pretty undeveloped.

I still think Mewtwo's kit is absurd though but much can be done against Mewtwo.

 

[DavemanCozy]

There's a reason why Aba CP Pac-Man vs Zinoto at CEO. Not only as a surprise counterpick, but also because the M2 Diddy MU is **** and Pac-Man has the advantage. How do you think he survive the abundance of Diddy back in the beginning of the game??

I'll give the benefit of the doubt that Pac-Man vs Diddy may be a better matchup than Mewtwo vs Diddy.

But did Abadango not lose that match?

 

[Luco]

I'll give the benefit of the doubt that Pac-Man vs Diddy may be a better matchup than Mewtwo vs Diddy.

But did Abadango not lose that match?

Then again, Mewtwo vs Diddy is supposedly pretty ridiculously bad for Mewtwo. I've heard M2 mains say Diddy invalidates Mewtwo's chances of being solo viable. Food for thought.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Diddy's neutral game is drastically superior to Pac-Mans.
Pac-Man does not have good enough an advantaged state to threaten Diddy's disadvantaged state.
Diddy's toolkit allows for enough non-commitment to shut out Pac's KO options for the most part [this is true for a lot of matchups that involve Pac-Man]. In order for a character to win a matchup like that he needs to be able to get into a favorable position enough times to consistently pull ahead of his opponent. In the Diddy vs Pac matchup that can virtually only happen if the Diddy player repeatedly runs into Pac's defensive walling tools.

Pac does have a pretty good disadvantaged state that allows him to wiggle his way out of big damage dealing strings, potentially allowing him to go even with Diddy. But claiming an advantage against a top 3 character with virtually no observable data to back it up is preposterous and nothing else.



... he didn't.

You make it sound like it's a crime to have a diffferant opinion

I'll give the benefit of the doubt that Pac-Man vs Diddy may be a better matchup than Mewtwo vs Diddy.

But did Abadango not lose that match?

Abadango won the first game that he used Pac-Man in, he only lost the second game (Which cost him the set). Don't forget this was a rusty Pac-Man that hadn't been used in tournament for months vs one of the best diddys in the world.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Then again, Mewtwo vs Diddy is supposedly pretty ridiculously bad for Mewtwo. I've heard M2 mains say Diddy invalidates Mewtwo's chances of being solo viable. Food for thought.

I believe you, and I have seen the match; it does look pretty damn difficult for Mewtwo. It makes sense why any M2 player would want a counterpick or at least a character with a better matchup.

My benefit of the doubt was: "Pac-Man vs Diddy may be a better matchup than Mewtwo vs Diddy." What I said doesn't imply that Pac-man wins vs Diddy, it simply states that Pac-man does better than Mewtwo against Diddy.

Abadango won the first game that he used Pac-Man in, he only lost the second game (Which cost him the set). Don't forget this was a rusty Pac-Man that hadn't been used in tournament for months vs one of the best diddys in the world.

If he was so rusty, why did he even pick him??? Are you telling me that Abadango wasn't taking it seriously? How does this justify the MU being +2 or whatever for Pac?
Winning 1 game, with a "rusty" character, does not all of a sudden mean that Pac-man beats Diddy.

I'm asking because I don't know anything about this matchup; I'm asking for data as well as results. Don't just reference a set where he only won one game with said character, because the results say that he still lost 2-3 and I ain't buying that Pac beats Diddy.

 

[TriTails]

I doubt Pac-Man has the same amount of advantage against Diddy as he does against Luigi.

Diddy's neutral is notably better than Luigi's (Although he gains less from conversions),partly due to mobility. Luigi's restricted speed movement in the air only allows him to be fast on the ground... and that sucks against Pac. Pac's killing problems are also more prominent in the MU because Diddy actually has kill setups, something Luigi lacks. I'm not sure how Pac interacts with Diddy's recovery, but he is getting free damage everytime Luigi is offstage because hydrant should snipe JC fairly easily.

Diddy gets in better and more consistently, something Luigi sucks at. At KO percents, Luigi has to practically swing his head around hoping it'll hit while Diddy just get a banana or D-tilt and boom.

Although, I'm not well informed on the character (I screw around with him sometimes... Let's just say like 1/4th of my deaths are because jank Up-B exploding on the stage when I recover). I can see Diddy having problems to hit hydrant back, thx low damage output, whereas Luigi has B-air and his smashes to do that. But aside from that (And low percents combo stuffs), I don't see how Luigi does as good as Diddy vs Pac. Pretty sure Luigi can't do jack with fruits either (If he can catch them in the first place) and trampoline ruins JC gimps.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You make it sound like it's a crime to have a diffferant opinion

... no, I don't.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

Hence me saying you guys are absolutely NUTS for not realizing how bad the Sheik and Diddy matchups are. Bayonetta simply cannot do ANYTHING to a Diddy/Sheik committed to camping in shield with banana or needlecamping halfway across the stage.

Mind you this extends her standing grab and not her dash grab. And she can do it with her shield which she can then follow up with oos Up-B.

 

[BSP]

View attachment 114494

Zage's Match-up chart for Pac-man. Most of these are normal to see in most Pac match-up charts except a few.

Interesting list, but I disagree with a good bit of it. That's a lot of text to write out, so let me do myself a favor and not worry about it.

Anywaysss. You already answered my first question, which was why does he think that Lucina does better than Marth? I understand that you believe her to be "safer", but I want to know what exactly you're suggesting within that statement? In what situations does Lucina thrive where Marth wouldn't be able to? Or is it not a situational matter, but rather the consistency of the character?

IMO Marth and Lucina are equally bad for Pac. Marth's tippers are scary as usual, but since the general method of dealing with Pac-Man for both of them is to chase him down and press buttons, Lucina not having to worry about spacing as much for damage/power/etc. is annoying too.

My other question is, what gives Pac-man the edge over Diddy and Luigi to such a notable extent (seeing as he gave them their own "ranking")? Similarly, what is it that makes the MU bad on Falcon's end? As I mentioned, my knowledge in regards to this character and his MUs are laughable, but when I (try to) piece together what I do know, I would've never imagined these three characters losing to Pac-man.

I don't understand the plus on Diddy either, which I'll cover below.

Luigi can really struggle to catch Pac-Man because of the trampoline. I would say it's Pac-Man's favor 6:4, but I wouldn't go any further because Luigi's buttons >>> Pac-Man's sans smash attacks, and the latter still can't KO well. If you don't mind phone recordings, watch me vs my training partner from a while back (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA38OeFPjuQ) . This match encapsulates the MU in a nutshell. Pac-Man can keep Luigi out, but he can always still lose.

No idea on the Falcon rating. Pac-Man can combo him hard with the right starting hit and edge guard him pretty well I guess, but Falcon outspeeds Pac-Man by a significant margin, out ranges him, does more damage /hit with more damaging confirms in general, and is hard to KO as Pac-Man if you can't edge guard him well. Falcon dive has just enough mixup potential to not make it a cakewalk. I think it's even for Falcon at worst, and he probably wins if he understands Pac-Man well.

Diddy's neutral game is drastically superior to Pac-Mans.
Pac-Man does not have good enough an advantaged state to threaten Diddy's disadvantaged state.
Diddy's toolkit allows for enough non-commitment to shut out Pac's KO options for the most part [this is true for a lot of matchups that involve Pac-Man]. In order for a character to win a matchup like that he needs to be able to get into a favorable position enough times to consistently pull ahead of his opponent. In the Diddy vs Pac matchup that can virtually only happen if the Diddy player repeatedly runs into Pac's defensive walling tools.

Pac does have a pretty good disadvantaged state that allows him to wiggle his way out of big damage dealing strings, potentially allowing him to go even with Diddy. But claiming an advantage against a top 3 character with virtually no observable data to back it up is preposterous and nothing else.

IDK if I'd say Diddy's neutral is drastically superior. Without Pac-Man's obstacles in play, yes, Diddy stomps him neutral wise. Pac-Man doesn't have a good answer to Fair at all (sans crouch, but Diddy can take that into account) and banana in hand is busted. With the stuff involved, I'm not seeing how Diddy bypasses them for free without any risk. If a character can do that, then i'd call then neutral vastly superior to Pac's.

I need to test how stale early monkey flip kick needs to be in order to not instant launch hydrant, but outside of that Diddy doesn't have any quick, low risk ways to get the hydrant out of the way that doesn't open him to a counter launch if Pac is close to it too. He can Monkey Flip through it if he's close enough, but I wouldn't call that safe, especially if he does it low enough so that he can possibly pressure Pac-Man with the grab/kick. Obviously the hydrant will protect Pac-Man from banana tosses too.

If a trampoline is between the two, Diddy's ground game gets significantly hampered. Again, he can monkey flip over or just go airborne, but this removes typical grounded banana confirms from the equation. Overall, Diddy can't ignore the obstacles.

The MU is super dependent on who has the lead. Everything I just said is under the context of diddy approaching. If Pac-Man has to approach, you are not wrong when you say Diddy can ignore Pac's limited KO options with a large degree of safety. This is exactly what he should do when he gets a lead, because diddy holding a banana and playing a reactionary game is extremely difficult for Pac-Man to KO. If Pac-Man loses the first stock, I wouldn't put it past Diddy to be able to consistently time him out. All Pac-Man can do to diddy playing like this is trampoline him constantly, which doesn't KO, does 7%, and puts risk : reward in diddy favor.

On the flip side, diddy repeatedly running into pac-man's walling tools can happen if he loses the lead and is forced to approach. Optimally played, I see this MU timing out a lot.

Calling Pac-Man favor right now is extremely generous, and would take a additional evidence. I'm thinking it's even or possibly Diddy favor if he goes for timeouts though. Both can make life hard for the other if they have the lead, but Diddy is diddy and has better KO confirms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0HrJt1tw4 ; i think this set does a decent job of showing patient diddy vs pac-man, although i don't think Beji adjusted for the blatant timeout strategy well. Actually, I disagree with his style a good bit. He doesn't really use trampoline to help control neutral at all.

IIf a player is as bent as suinoko was on timing pac man out, him getting the key in hand is something he needs to do often to counter this. He also needs to just take trampoline hits over and over, because grab is waaaay too risky when you're fighting the % battle.

I wouldn't look at abadango vs zinoto for insight on the MU. If anything it shows how pac man doesn't beat diddy because zinoto clearly didn't know the MU (tried to pick up fruit that was thrown twice, respecting Pac-Man too much after getting hit by the trampoline) but was still able to pull out the eventual victory.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is Monkey Flip even that useful an option against Pac-Man? It seems risky to do when Pac-Man has a Bonus Fruit ready or a Hydrant on the field and Pac-Man isn't a character you see approach via Dash -> Shield a lot, which is what Monkey Flip really counters hard and makes it wrongfully considered 'broken' by some people. If we're talking about 'optimal play' then I'd say that Diddy is better off not using side B a whole lot.

Optimally played, I see this MU timing out a lot.

That could easily be the case.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mind you this extends her standing grab and not her dash grab. And she can do it with her shield which she can then follow up with oos Up-B.

this isn't new
It's also possible with Fox's Uair.
But after doing it what does she proceed to get off of grab.

 

[BSP]

Is Monkey Flip even that useful an option against Pac-Man? It seems risky to do when Pac-Man has a Bonus Fruit ready or a Hydrant on the field and Pac-Man isn't a character you see approach via Dash -> Shield a lot, which is what Monkey Flip really counters hard and makes it wrongfully considered 'broken' by some people. If we're talking about 'optimal play' then I'd say that Diddy is better off not using side B a whole lot.



That could easily be the case.

It has its uses. The early monkey flip kick will instant launch the hydrant if it's fresh, and the kick in general > anything pac man throws out minus his ghosts. Fruits and tumbling hydrant get clanked, while aerials will trade. If Pac-Man is hiding behind the hydrant and pressing buttons a lot, plants it too closely to diddy, or stands on top of it for some reason, I would be kicking away.

However if Pac-Man is looking for that option specifically and he's grounded + on the other side of the hydrant, it's not safe...I guess that's obvious though, and with a Key on deck, Pac should be able to punish a whiff.

So it depends on the situation.

On a side note, does 9B still play this game? I think I remember Emblem Lord saying he's the type of player to abuse one specific (broken lol) option in neutral to convert into wins.

He should probably look into Pac-Man, because he has legit footstool infinites on everyone. I would be nice to see someone implement them in tournament.