Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

Look at all the diversi- huh?

Man, Cloud sure is ruining the diversity in this ga- wait...


Incidentally, I think there's our top 5 atm. You could argue for Sonic > Fox but either way works. People are starting to figure things out, and in an event of this size, whose else should weather the storm but these characters? It's all too fitting, really.

 

[soniczx123]

CEO Top 16:

x3
x3
x2
x2
x0

I know I sound like a broken record at this point ... but that's something you cannot possibly ignore. I'm really curious about how this is going to affect Das Koopa 's rankings. Cloud will not gain *any* points from CEO, correct?

You seem to have forgotten that Wrath is playing against Zero in Losers of top 16, so a Sonic should be there as well.

EDIT: saj is also in top 16 so Bayo should be added as well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I haven't forgotten anything - I've only noted the characters that have 'significantly' outperformed Cloud at CEO by having more than one rep in top 16 as opposed to Cloud who has no reps left in bracket.

 

[soniczx123]

I haven't forgotten anything - I've only noted the characters that have 'significantly' outperformed Cloud at CEO by having more than one rep in top 16 as opposed to Cloud who has no reps left in bracket.

You should have mentioned that

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I'd have to wait until EVO or another big major before just deciding that Cloud isn't a problem. One on hand, it's strange that there are no Clouds in top 16, but on the other hand, this tournament has been absolutely nuts with upsets left and right, and CEO could have very well been won by a Cloud were it not for the unfortunate circumstances involving Mew2King.

It's hard to argue with data and if Cloud consistently proves to not be as centralizing or overpowering as some of us made him out to be, then I will happily concede. But if we're going to use a tournament result to back our predispositions or theories about a character, I don't know if CEO 2016 is the best pick, considering everything that's happened.

On a side note, someone who's been doing great no matter what region, no matter how many upsets, and seems to be just everywhere as of recent is Diddy Kong. It's crazy to think that a couple of nerfs to top tiers above him would be all it took to make him arguably the best character in the game for the second time in Smash 4's life span. Hopefully he has just enough bad matchups and exploitable points in his gameplan to not end up being a problem.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

On the topic of Cloud vs. Rosa, I still think it's a slight losing matchup but definitely not -2. Not going to go into it right now.

 

[Blobface]

Speaking of Cloud, he was also absent in top 16 at TUS, a recent Japanese tourney. Ganon however, was not, with Pon placing 9th.

Clearly Ganon is superior to Cloud. Everyone pick him up as a secondary.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd have to wait until EVO or another big major before just deciding that Cloud isn't a problem. One on hand, it's strange that there are no Clouds in top 16, but on the other hand, this tournament has been absolutely nuts with upsets left and right, and CEO could have very well been won by a Cloud were it not for the unfortunate circumstances involving Mew2King.

It's hard to argue with data and if Cloud consistently proves to not be as centralizing or overpowering as some of us made him out to be, then I will happily concede. But if we're going to use a tournament result to back our predispositions or theories about a character, I don't know if CEO 2016 is the best pick, considering everything that's happened.

On a side note, someone who's been doing great no matter what region, no matter how many upsets, and seems to be just everywhere as of recent is Diddy Kong. It's crazy to think that a couple of nerfs to top tiers above him would be all it took to make him arguably the best character in the game for the second time in Smash 4's life span. Hopefully he has just enough bad matchups and exploitable points in his gameplan to not end up being a problem.

The Clouds were all getting sent to losers by Sheiks. It's not a mystery. That MU is 60-40 Sheik and is a significant thorn in Cloud's side competitively. Diddy and Sheik simply don't lose any MUs that hard and it shows with their superior consistency. Cloud simply ain't the best at a top level.

 

[|RK|]

The Clouds were all getting sent to losers by Sheiks. It's not a mystery. That MU is 60-40 Sheik and is a significant thorn in Cloud's side competitively. Diddy and Sheik simply don't lose any MUs that hard and it shows with their superior consistency. Cloud simply ain't the best at a top level.

I feel like every high/top Diddy player would disagree with that. But I'd wait for them to talk about their poor matchups rather than guess.

Sheik has her own problems. But that's mostly "how mentally strong are you"?

 

[Iron Kraken]

There's no doubt that Diddy and Sheik are both great characters in Smash 4 - but I do think it's worth keeping in mind that both characters are still helped by their legacy factor. Both Diddy and Sheik spent a good deal of time as the dominant character in the game, and as a result many good players picked them up. As a result of that legacy, many competitive players invested a lot of time into these characters, which is what continues to give them great results.

Again, I'm not saying that Diddy and Sheik aren't great. But I do think that their results are disproportionately great to how good they actually are compared to others in their tier, as a result of the legacy factor.

Cloud is in a similar camp in the sense that for whatever reason you want to attribute it to (fun factor, ease of use, etc.) many great players rushed to pick him up.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Top 16 Predictions!!!

Winners Side

Falsevs Anti Bold Prediction - False

Nakatvs Mr.R Predictions - Mr.R

Zinotovs Larry Lurr Predictions - Larry Lurr

Dabuz(I am expecting a secondary to deal with MK, and it won't be Olimar) vs Abadango Prediction -Dabuz

Losers Side

Zerovs Wrath Prediction - Zero

VoiD vs fallnBOLDEST PREDICTION IMHO - Falln

Nietonovs Saj Prediction - Nietono

ScAttvs Hyuga Prediction - Scatt

Number of Characters (Anti will represent Mario cause i don't know the chars he used besides Mario lol)
x5 2 in winners, 3 in losers
x3 1 in winners, 2 in losers
x3 All in losers
x2 1 in winners, 1 in losers
x2 Both in winners
x1 Winners
x1 Winners
x1 Winners
x1 Winners
x1 Winners
x1 Winners (as a Pocket)
x1 Losers
x1 Losers
x1 Losers
x1 Losers

# of Chars in Top 16 - 15

Notable Characters absent from top 16 -

Surprise Characters in Top 16 -

Surprise Players in Top 16 - Saj, Wrath, Falln, Scatt(?)

Just somthing I posted in the tournament thread. I included secondaries, but yeah. This top 16 is going to be VERY interesting to say the least.The question remains, will zero have the biggest losers run of smash 4 and end up winning?

 

[UberMadman]

I think it's pretty silly to talk about the lack of Cloud representation without mentioning that Mew2King had to drop out of bracket because he was under the impression that someone he loved was dying. That's probably an important factor in regards to the lack of Cloud representation.

 

[ARGHETH]

I think it's pretty silly to talk about the lack of Cloud representation without mentioning that Mew2King had to drop out of bracket because he was under the impression that someone he loved was dying. That's probably an important factor in regards to the lack of Cloud representation.

He would have ran straight in to Hyuga and Nairo, and I'm not entirely sure he can beat both of them.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Even if every single Cloud present in a big tournament was knocked out round 1 in something people would make excuses and still try to make out that hes bad for the game when he isnt. Just sayin

 

[HoSmash4]

There's no doubt that Diddy and Sheik are both great characters in Smash 4 - but I do think it's worth keeping in mind that both characters are still helped by their legacy factor. Both Diddy and Sheik spent a good deal of time as the dominant character in the game, and as a result many good players picked them up. As a result of that legacy, many competitive players invested a lot of time into these characters, which is what continues to give them great results.

Again, I'm not saying that Diddy and Sheik aren't great. But I do think that their results are disproportionately great to how good they actually are compared to others in their tier, as a result of the legacy factor.

Cloud is in a similar camp in the sense that for whatever reason you want to contribute it to (fun factor, ease of use, etc.) many great players rushed to pick him up.

The reverse is true to an extent in the fact that a lot more sheik counterplay exists than for other characters. (Key example: pre-patch bayo)

 

[Das Koopa]

CEO Top 16:

x3
x3
x2
x2
x0

I know I sound like a broken record at this point ... but that's something you cannot possibly ignore. I'm really curious about how this is going to affect Das Koopa 's rankings. Cloud will not gain *any* points from CEO, correct?

It depends on if ANTi or ZeRo pull him out to success.

Cloud is a big loser this weekend though. Something like 290 points are awarded between these 3 tourniesand if neither ANTi nor ZeRo pull Cloud out then Cloud will only get awarded 1 point.

 

[LancerStaff]

err, no, lets not kid ourselves.
CC shining someone into an autocombo or bthrow/jab>shining them into death doesn't actually take any skill at all.
neither does cc dsmash, a 3% projectile that can be shot across the stage with no lag, a f1 invincible move that kills at like 10-20%, or a way to guarantee death off one grab.
admitting smash 4 has bs is one thing, but completely writing off the fact that melee has 3x as much stupid **** that adds more impact to each match is ridiculous

Between only having six characters with this level of BS, picking a good enough character gives you access to actual counterplay, and the game having more stocks (and already much faster stocks), the game is just inherently more consistent. Death at 20% or even 0% isn't nearly as big a deal as making one tiny mistake in SSB4 because you were probably dying at like 50% anyway.

Really, if some Joe Shmoe could just walk up and kill off of a shine for free twenty times then Melee wouldn't be consistent at all. That's what I mean by "it takes actual skill." Winning with just about any character in SSB4 really is less about being skillful and more about guessing right with some low commitment move that doesn't and can't have consistent counterplay.

Are we seriously using Smash 4 Marth as an example of skill-less easy wins? In comparison to Melee?

Yeah, so? Marth's design in Smash 4 is just completely dumb and unsatisfying for both players involved. Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?

 

[Das Koopa]

Discovered there was a sizable Minnesota tourney lol.

Push More Buttons (June 25th) (Midwest) (180 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Ned
2nd: Shinjoebi
3rd: Nite
4th: Bushi
5th: PowPow
5th: Naoto
7th: GanontheBeast
7th: Seth
9th: NameLess
9th: Triple R
9th: Moti
9th: MJG
13th: Sinnyboo242
13th: Yeti
13th: Sethlon
13th: Jibca

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah, so? Marth's design in Smash 4 is just completely dumb and unsatisfying for both players involved. Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?

Am I missing something? What about Marth's design is dumb? He's straightforward as **** and tuned pretty well. The character thrives off of fundamentals and proper spacing. Of all the characters to complain about...

 

[ARGHETH]

Yeah, so? Marth's design in Smash 4 is just completely dumb and unsatisfying for both players involved. Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?

Huh?
What about Marth is bad in this game? Especially compared to Melee Marth?

 

[BunbUn129]

Yeah, so? Marth's design in Smash 4 is just completely dumb and unsatisfying for both players involved. Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?

When I look at Marth, I see a character who has clear-cut strengths and weaknesses, which is typical of characters who are actually well-designed. Marth is a spacing-oriented character who has the range and mobility to space and gains fair reward off of doing it properly; but if he spaces poorly he gets punished hard. It's a simple design that works in the end. There's no Ding Dong cheese or anything like Melee chain-grabs and 0-deaths and Brawl short-hop double fair, nothing he can bank on to make up for poor fundamentals. I see nothing in Marth's design that screams unfair.

 

[-Tornado-]

Discovered there was a sizable Minnesota tourney lol.

Push More Buttons (June 25th) (Midwest) (180 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Ned
2nd: Shinjoebi
3rd: Nite
4th: Bushi
5th: PowPow
5th: Naoto
7th: GanontheBeast
7th: Seth
9th: NameLess
9th: Triple R
9th: Moti
9th: MJG
13th: Sinnyboo242
13th: Yeti
13th: Sethlon
13th: Jibca

A different character for each result? GANON in top 8?
This is a dream, and I don't want to wake up.

 

[NewZen]

Did someone actually try and use Marth's ludicrous Chain grab with his Jedi grab as an example of how Marth's design is "supposed" to work from Melee of all things? Really?

I understand that he's not as ridiculous as he was in Melee and Brawl, and he could stand to use a few fixes to his overall game, but let's not even kid ourselves when we all know that his design Melee was mostly busted from a technical standpoint, whereas in 4, yes, he has to work hard, but with proper spacing, he gains reward.

 

[LancerStaff]

Didn't say Melee Marth was better designed. Didn't say anybody in Melee was better designed... Melee is just more consistent, and a big reason is the poor balance.

SSB4 Marth is largely just spacing the same few moves until you win. That's it. You don't have significantly more or less safe moves to use, no calculation beyond wether or not you can reach, nothing hype or amazing past an Fsmash read... He does the same few things from beginning to end.

No, he's not poorly balanced. Is he fun or interesting beyond the novelty of killing off of a spaced tilt? Not really.

Did someone actually try and use Marth's ludicrous Chain grab with his Jedi grab as an example of how Marth's design is "supposed" to work from Melee of all things? Really?

Actually I don't think anybody said that.

 

[BunbUn129]

Marth being fun and all or not is subjective anyway.

"No, he's not poorly balanced."

And yet you said: "Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?"

Make up your mind, fam.

 

[NewZen]

Didn't say Melee Marth was better designed. Didn't say anybody in Melee was better designed... Melee is just more consistent, and a big reason is the poor balance.

SSB4 Marth is largely just spacing the same few moves until you win. That's it. You don't have significantly more or less safe moves to use, no calculation beyond wether or not you can reach, nothing hype or amazing past an Fsmash read... He does the same few things from beginning to end.

No, he's not poorly balanced. Is he fun or interesting beyond the novelty of killing off of a spaced tilt? Not really.



Actually I don't think anybody said that.

You mentioned his design in Smash 4 being "dumb for any player to utilize", more or less making it seem you're defending how his design philosophy in Melee was better by design given your little rant on why Melee was "better" as opposed to just how much more unbalanced it tends to be , so really, just what the heck are you trying to say given your posts seem to be schizophrenic?

 

[wedl!!]

So basically fun is objective.

okay.

 

[Strong-Arm]

This thread sometimes is a pretty good comedy show.

 

[soniczx123]

This thread sometimes is a pretty good comedy show.

You mean everytime a character is the central topic?

 

[NewZen]

This thread sometimes is a pretty good comedy show.

Your pic is a perfect representation to those who don't know how to deal with your character. XD

 

[LancerStaff]

Marth being fun and all or not is subjective anyway.

"No, he's not poorly balanced."

And yet you said: "Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?"

Make up your mind, fam.

Relying on the same few moves is poor design. These few moves are strong, but not too much to where he invalidates anybody that wasn't useless to begin with.

Two totally different things.

You mentioned his design in Smash 4 being "dumb for any player to utilize", more or less making it seem you're defending how his design philosophy in Melee was better by design given your little rant on why Melee was "better" as opposed to just how much more unbalanced it tends to be , so really, just what the heck are you trying to say given your posts seem to be schizophrenic?

They mean exactly what I'm saying. SSB4 isn't consistent, and Melee is even though it's not well designed. What's "schizophrenic" about it? I didn't even bring up Melee in the first place.

Y'all need to actually read what you're arguing against. This happens three times a week because of the dumb circlejerk surrounding the thread.

 

[Blobface]

I just noticed Sethlon made top 16 with Roy, cool to see. Pretty sure that leaves Jiggs by herself in the No-Impressive-Results Club.

One day though, some godly Jiggs player is going to lay these bottom-tier allegations to Rest.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

One day though, some godly Jiggs player is going to lay these bottom-tier allegations to Rest.

I'm betting a Pound against that.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'm betting a Pound against that.

So, 85 pence?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Yeah, so? Marth's design in Smash 4 is just completely dumb and unsatisfying for both players involved. Do you really look at Marth and think he's a good design for a competitive fighting game?

Of all the characters you chose to complain about, you choose...Marth?

"Unsatisfying for both players involved" - Alright, I already disagree. If you want to make this statement, make it about someone like prepatch Luigi or Bayonetta. Characters who no one wants to be touched by creating an odd atomosphere where one character is playing extremely defensive and the other is constantly trying to poke. Marth is the epitome of an honest character. He's rewarded for good fundamentals and doesn't have anything I would call "dumb".

When a Marth player beats me, I KNOW I got outplayed; there is literally nothing I can blame my loss on other than the fact that my opponent did better than me. Marth has no bull**** associated with his character. He gets next to nothing off of grabs, his combos generally last 2 hits max, and his frame data suggests that he'll generally be punished on whiff. I have never once had an unpleasant experience playing against a Marth. I do pocket him from time to time, and I may get frustrated playing as him, but it's mainly due to campy opponents or myself struggling to kill. What does this tell me? My fundamentals and mentality need work.

Marth's design isn't best, but it's farther from the worst. It baffles me how of every character to choose from, you choose Marth to complain about; arguably the most honest character in the game.

On a side note, if not Marth then who do you all suggest the most honest character in the game is? It's a question I've had for a while, but I'm curious to know what everyone else has to say.

 

[LancerStaff]

Of all the characters you chose to complain about, you choose...Marth?

"Unsatisfying for both players involved" - Alright, I already disagree. If you want to make this statement, make it about someone like prepatch Luigi or Bayonetta. Characters who no one wants to be touched by creating an odd atomosphere where one character is playing extremely defensive and the other is constantly trying to poke. Marth is the epitome of an honest character. He's rewarded for good fundamentals and doesn't have anything I would call "dumb".

When a Marth player beats me, I KNOW I got outplayed; there is literally nothing I can blame my loss on other than the fact that my opponent did better than me. Marth has no bull**** associated with his character. He gets next to nothing off of grabs, his combos generally last 2 hits max, and his frame data suggests that he'll generally be punished on whiff. I have never once had an unpleasant experience playing against a Marth. I do pocket him from time to time, and I may get frustrated playing as him, but it's mainly due to campy opponents or myself struggling to kill. What does this tell me? My fundamentals and mentality need work.

Marth's design isn't best, but it's farther from the worst. It baffles me how of every character to choose from, you choose Marth to complain about; arguably the most honest character in the game.

On a side note, if not Marth then who do you all suggest the most honest character in the game is? It's a question I've had for a while, but I'm curious to know what everyone else has to say.

There's nothing honest about tippers. Like, seriously, what game are you playing?

I'm not saying Marth is OP. He's dumb to fight for reasons similar to prepatch Bayo and Luigi, but he's just not OP. He's very linear and one-dimensional. If Marth had his current design and was good enough to be a top 15 character people would be complaining all ****ing day about him. Honestly he only gets a pass because he sucked for most of the game's lifespan... All the sympathy can turn to hate overnight as we've learned with Mewtwo.

Also Pit's the most honest character. Just sayin'.

 

[HeavyLobster]

On a side note, if not Marth then who do you all suggest the most honest character in the game is?

Lucina.

 

[-Tornado-]

(EDIT: wrong thread)

 

[bc1910]

I'm betting a Pound against that.

You haven't sold all your Pounds already?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You haven't sold all your Pounds already?

Never had any :3