Nabbitnator
Smash Ace
I'm concerned about that.
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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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Shady Shaymin
Smash Journeyman
"Stop complaining about Cloud, he never wins anything big"
RIP
RIP
Ninety
Smash Journeyman
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Make that supermajor then. Pound was way smaller than CEO.
Davis-Lightheart
Smash Journeyman
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You do have to consider that his Cloud wasn't the one that got him to GF. Cloud was what sealed the win.
It makes me wonder if Cloud is more effective as a pocket than a main. Cloud mains struggle while pocket Clouds succeed. It's possible that Cloud is an effective pocket for those long endurance matches too, because he is so easy to pick up and do damage with, considering that Zinoto had to be exhausted by the time GFs happened, I don't think he was mentally or physically prepared to be piledrived.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
It should be a testament to how poorly thought out Marth is that it just didn't work at all before the buffs. (Conversely, Ike's gameplan is fine even though he sucked because he just had a lot of disfunctional tools.)
A well-designed character doesn't rely on one single move or aspect. Marth clearly does.
Who cares? Uh, everybody? People are already complaining about Bowser, Lucario and Mewtwo. Honestly with how bad this thread is I'm shocked nobody's said anything sooner.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
I dunno. People were freaking out about Mewtwo after Pound and he's just kind of floated around since. I'm going to see how the rest of the summer plays out before designating Cloud as our new oppressive overlord.
Scrubtorights
Smash Cadet
Well unless a patch appears not a lot can be done about that. Well I better Rip the thread early before the storm lol.
Jexulus
Omnivore of the Year
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- Jexulus
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I personally don't think it had to do with Cloud being just that good; it had more to do with the intensity of GFs and suddenly WHAM! Cloud. More than likely he couldn't shift gears fast enough, not necessarily that Cloud was that much better.
Basically, it was the shift, not the character himself. At least in my opinion. I'm curious to see if this will be the case at EVO.
Basically, it was the shift, not the character himself. At least in my opinion. I'm curious to see if this will be the case at EVO.
You forgot about this guy:
WHY PAY 5.99 WHEN U CAN WIN MAJORS FOR NEARLY HALF THE PRICE !!!!!11!!1!!
ARGHETH
Smash Lord
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Single aspect?
Are you considering tippers or having "Hits hard, difficult to challenge directly, usually kills, safe when spaced and punishable on whiff" type moves a single aspect? Because either way, this whole thing is just lol
Peppermint1201
Smash Journeyman
the only instance of cloud in the entirety of CEO top 16 was ANTi in set 2 of Grand Finals. nerf him right now sakurai what are you waiting for
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BunbUn129
Smash Ace
This is the first time I see someone legit mad at Marth for being too good/oppressive, really. No one brought it up sooner? You know why? Because not "everybody" cares about the imaginary scenario in which Marth becomes overpowered.
Marth doesn't rely on one move. Have you ever watched Pugwest, Leo, Mr. E, and False? There's SH fair, RAR bair, jab, up air, nair, side b, f tilt and dtilt. That's a total of 9 moves that Marth uses commonly, a little less than half his moveset. I may have even missed one or two others. I suggest you actually educate yourself before complaining about a character. Most characters are centered on a certain playstyle, it's not something unique to Marth. He plays a spacing oriented neutral and his damage game relies on option coverage rather than true combos. The characters who can adopt different play styles with relatively equal effectiveness are mostly top tiers, eg. Sheik can opt to play campy and defensive or aggressive rushdown, Cloud can play campy and defensive or pressure his opponents with spacing tools.
If you want to make complaints towards a character credible, you better give strong evidence. Marth having to "rely on one single move" holds no water because it's objectively wrong and anyone who has ever watched Smash 4 Marth play knows that. And if Marth being centered on one aspect gives you reason to complain, then there are a lot more characters in that boat.
Peppermint1201
Smash Journeyman
There is no objective measure of what "good design" is.
From a viability perspective, Marth does not need to be changed.
As far as this thread goes, that's all that needs to be said about his design.
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
I find it hilarious that even though his best players (Leo, Tyrant, Ito) weren't in attendance, we ended up seeing MK play in top 16 by players who don't even main him. Lol.
MK's sole purpose in this game is to run trains all over Rosalina.
MK's sole purpose in this game is to run trains all over Rosalina.
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HeavyLobster
Smash Champion
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Every time a top dedicated Cloud faced a top dedicated Sheik the Sheik won. How is there a debate? Cloud only got that far because Anti's Mario cleared out all the Sheiks. Mario did most of the work. We very blatantly have a counterpick meta. Most every high tier had one or two MUs where they struggled in. No one character dominated by themselves.
UberMadman
Smash Lord
Actually, as a Bowser Jr. main, I have some choice words about Villager.Holy hell, this is melodramatic (intentionally I'm sure) but if I could physically turn these words into bricks, I'd make myself a house and live in it. Every major is a new apocalypse as of late and it's just so entertaining. Makes me happy hardly anyone takes
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Floated around? lol. Mewtwo got 4th today at CEO, which I'll remind you had 907 entrants.
If anything, after POUND Mewtwo has secured his place as a top tier character IMO.
YerTheBestAROUND
Smash Journeyman
So in your eyes Marth relies off of edge guarding, a tipper, or uthrow I'm assuming. Whereas Pit relies on fthrow, edge guarding, a smash attack or side b, maybe a tipper ftilt kill (gasp even pit has one). Geeeeeeeee.... huge difference, huh?
Pit's badly designed and boring he relies on the same methods of killing.
I obviously don't think that, but do you see how ridiculous that is? Are you suddenly not going to use your kill options because someone thinks they're boring? Tippers are necessary for Marth's design. He has to space out for the tipper because he's not safe if he doesn't. And tippers aren't exactly exclusive to Marth anyway. Sheik fair has a tipper like hitbox, Pit ftilt, Link dash attack etc. Why would you not utilize your sweet spots? Why should Marth not be rewards for playing properly, especially when it's not exactly the easiest thing to do with Marth anyway? And the people that still complain about Mewtwo or Bowser are crazy too.
This chat could really use a big dose of 'git gud'
How can Greninja even qualify for this when literally none of his top players where there?Big winners at CEO
Slight winners
Poor Preformeces
Like, the best greninja there was like Ice Arrow lol.
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
Also MK is weird to decide. On one hand, Leo, Tyrant, and Ito didn't attend, yet he saw notable usage in top 16 and took 2 games. I think he should be in the slight winners part. But then again, none of his best players were there so it might be best to not include him at all. And lastly, Aba did poorly with him so you could justify him in poor performances.Big winners at CEO
Slight winners
Poor Preformeces
Edit: Maybe I should take corrin out because he/she did beat Ally but......
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
On another note, Dabuz used Olimar a lot at CEO. I like it, but I think it also reaffirms the idea that the game has a counterpick meta. Having a character to switch to can pull you out of a tough set, even if it's a not so good character like Olimar.
In this way, many mid tier or lower characters may still have a niche as a surprise counterpick. Anti almost lost to Olimar as Mario, I don't think he really had a great grasp on that matchup. How many players know the Olimar matchup?
Also this means that Dabuz can put his money where his mouth is. He has called other top Olimar players bad in the past, and today he was using some of the tools he mentioned they largely ignore.
Edit: Pocket Meta Knights don't really work. Never did, really. They got some games, but that's it.
In this way, many mid tier or lower characters may still have a niche as a surprise counterpick. Anti almost lost to Olimar as Mario, I don't think he really had a great grasp on that matchup. How many players know the Olimar matchup?
Also this means that Dabuz can put his money where his mouth is. He has called other top Olimar players bad in the past, and today he was using some of the tools he mentioned they largely ignore.
Edit: Pocket Meta Knights don't really work. Never did, really. They got some games, but that's it.
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BunbUn129
Smash Ace
True, MK is a difficult character to use. But the fact that pocket MK's managed to take games off of a Rosalina of Dabuz's calibre and forced him onto a secondary at least shows that MK has some use as CP character (especially since Cloud vs Rosa is being reevaluated).
Outside of Ice Arrow, there really weren't any notable ninjas. Only four were really active this weekend:How can Greninja even qualify for this when literally none of his top players where there?
Like, the best greninja there was like Ice Arrow lol.
- iStudying - 2nd @ GGWP 8: Preperations (lost to S1-14 in WF/GF)
- Eddy - 3rd @ GGWP 8
- Shinjoebi - 2nd @ Push More Buttons (lost to Ned in WF/GF)
- Elexiao - 3rd (can't recall tournament name)
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Don't forget Eddy got 3rd at GGWP too.
Also Elexiao got 3rd at some tournament in England iirc. I forget the name.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
It has but people aren't tripping over themselves to pick up Mewtwo and Mewtwo isn't mindlessly ripping tournaments apart. I kind of put him in the same boat as Ryu: definitely a strong character but with definite flaws and is unlikely to explode in popularity anytime soon. Both are top ten for sure.Floated around? lol. Mewtwo got 4th today at CEO, which I'll remind you had 907 entrants.
If anything, after POUND Mewtwo has secured his place as a top tier character IMO.
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
User was warned for this post
Ryu really isn't that good. I'm not just saying that because Trela under performed. Like, I don't think he's even top 10.
I also wanna say Cloud had a poor showing at CEO (aside from the obvious) but that's already been addressed. Counterpick meta is live.
I also wanna say Cloud had a poor showing at CEO (aside from the obvious) but that's already been addressed. Counterpick meta is live.
FallofBrawl
Smash Ace
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After losing brain cells reading the past couple of pages
Antis cloud isn't a pocket you morons
Antis cloud isn't a pocket you morons
D
Deleted member 269706
Guest
You really did lose a lot of brain cells.
FallofBrawl
Smash Ace
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You're telling me a character he's been working in for 2 months and has been studying immensely if you go to his Twitter/stream is a pocket, get out of here.
williamsga555
Smash Journeyman
Question time, with CEO under the books:
What character is completely solo-viable at this current point in time?
Honestly I'm not fully certain there are any. Seems like every top tier has a bad matchup with someone.
What character is completely solo-viable at this current point in time?
Honestly I'm not fully certain there are any. Seems like every top tier has a bad matchup with someone.
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
Sheik is fine the way she is, imo. The way they've changed her makes her more true to her archetype while keeping her top tier. Isn't that ideal? Slowing her down and giving her more power needlessly homogenizes the character. (Also you could just play Greninja if you want that kek).
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Ninety
Smash Journeyman
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Well, yeah? If your criteria for solo viability is "No losing matchups", then by definition only one character will qualify. Not winning every matchup doesn't mean a character isn't solo viable. Zinoto damn near took it with solo Diddy.
Quantumpen
Smash Apprentice
Diddy and Rosa are solo viable for sure (Metaknight isn't a good match-up but it's 6-4 at worst.) Cloud probably is, Sheik probably is, Fox probably is, Mario probably is.
I think Mewtwo is, but everyone's gonna scream that he loses to diddy 7-3 or something, even though it's not true. Aba needs more Diddy practice. He doesn't even punish Diddy's up-b with nair -_-.
I think Mewtwo is, but everyone's gonna scream that he loses to diddy 7-3 or something, even though it's not true. Aba needs more Diddy practice. He doesn't even punish Diddy's up-b with nair -_-.
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Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
?Add in: Because someone brought up Rosalina, Dabuz also comes in here every once and a while and insists that she isn't solo viable but I don't think he's ever fully elaborated on his opinions.
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Nobie
Smash Champion
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Anti used his Cloud in Grand Finals, but also notice that he ONLY used it in Grand Finals in the Top 8.
Want to know why Anti's Mario had trouble vs. Zinoto? Because Zinoto's training partner is ALLY.
Being singularly focused on one quality isn't a bad design, so this talk of Marth being too one-note is kind of ridiculous. "All he has to do is space properly the entire match."
I actually love to participate in buff and nerf talks, but only when people aren't being super salty about it. Like what, now people are claiming Mewtwo shouldn't have kill throws, which is supposed to be one of its defining characteristics?
Like, here's what I'd say is the difference between fun and productive buff/nerf talk and whiny buff/nerf talk:
Fun: "Sonic is really good at running away, but maybe should be punished more for when he makes the wrong choice."
Whiny: "Sonic is dumb and runs away too much and it's not fair."
That's just my opinion, of course.
Actually, what I think is happening is 1) the standard complaining that happens whenever anyone wins a major (I bet if Pac-Man won a major people would be up in arms about how unfair his hydrant setups are) and 2) because CEO 2016 was upset city people have nothing familiar to latch onto, so they're pawing at anything to try and make sense of the world.
Want to know why Anti's Mario had trouble vs. Zinoto? Because Zinoto's training partner is ALLY.
Being singularly focused on one quality isn't a bad design, so this talk of Marth being too one-note is kind of ridiculous. "All he has to do is space properly the entire match."
I actually love to participate in buff and nerf talks, but only when people aren't being super salty about it. Like what, now people are claiming Mewtwo shouldn't have kill throws, which is supposed to be one of its defining characteristics?
Like, here's what I'd say is the difference between fun and productive buff/nerf talk and whiny buff/nerf talk:
Fun: "Sonic is really good at running away, but maybe should be punished more for when he makes the wrong choice."
Whiny: "Sonic is dumb and runs away too much and it's not fair."
That's just my opinion, of course.
Actually, what I think is happening is 1) the standard complaining that happens whenever anyone wins a major (I bet if Pac-Man won a major people would be up in arms about how unfair his hydrant setups are) and 2) because CEO 2016 was upset city people have nothing familiar to latch onto, so they're pawing at anything to try and make sense of the world.
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