Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[valakmtnsmash4]

Didnt realize shulk was middle in the road in terms of popularity, interesting.

 

[Vhaltz]

What I take from this is that self doubting MK mains need to wise up... B)

Ngl I was pretty surprised by the occassional pessimism in the MK discord, the character is still great.

 

[LancerStaff]

Positive outliers seem to be (these two only just slightly)andby a technicality.

Negative outliers include (these five just barely, maybe not because holding a pen to the screen isn't that accurate) and then the (supposedly) bottom tier band of and.

Interestingly, the group of Corrin to Falco are commonly seen as overrated characters in one way or another so it's not completely unfounded.

 

[Thinkaman]

Wow, little mac is decently high, it seems like his results back up his popularity pretty well

I was sitting here with an imaginary award for the first person to mention this.

Mac's popularity has fallen, and his results have gone up. Take note, everybody.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Positive outliers seem to be (these two only just slightly)andby a technicality.

Negative outliers include (these five just barely, maybe not because holding a pen to the screen isn't that accurate) and then the (supposedly) bottom tier band of and.

Interestingly, the group of Corrin to Falco are commonly seen as overrated characters in one way or another so it's not completely unfounded.

Interesting, I didnt know link and shulk were still overrated characters. I thought everyone thought that shulk was bottom 10.

 

[san.]

Just for clarification, popularity is character usage for each player at large events, or is there some cutoff?

 

[Radical Larry]

I was sitting here with an imaginary award for the first person to mention this.

Mac's popularity has fallen, and his results have gone up. Take note, everybody.

Does this thing count Europe too?

 

[Thinkaman]

The data suggests a reasonable tier list would look like this, if tiered generously: (Miis omitted due to lack of sufficient data)









Notable holes in the data:

• and (and maybe ) are artificially results starved due to having superior alternatives. Take their bottom positions with huge grains of salt.
  
• Even bigger grain: Obviously is missing results in this sample and thus is way too low.
• and aren't just popular, they are filling out top 8s all over the world quite well. It's time to have a really frank discussion as to what level our tiering is really considering.
• Also, here's looking at you kid:
• fever hasn't actually caught on yet, hold your horses everybody.
  
• 's loss is 's gain.
  
• and refuse to behave like bottom tiers.

Minus a few of those mentioned odd cases, this list looks pretty solid. Anyone disagreeing with part of it has quite the burden of proof.

Just for clarification, popularity is character usage for each player at large events, or is there some cutoff?

Popularity is all the character entries for all events (of any size) reported to Smashboards event rankings.

I readily recognize the fault in measuring popularity across all events but results from only large events. However, the additional accuracy this afforded popularity was worth it, and there should not be a large disparity. The few edge case problems like WFT are easy to identify.

 

[Nu~]

Positive outliers seem to be (these two only just slightly)andby a technicality.

Negative outliers include (these five just barely, maybe not because holding a pen to the screen isn't that accurate) and then the (supposedly) bottom tier band of and.

Interestingly, the group of Corrin to Falco are commonly seen as overrated characters in one way or another so it's not completely unfounded.

Pacman is commonly seen as overrated?
Since when?

I thought he was commonly seen as a gimmick character and tossed to the wayside

 

[Amadeus9]

Pacman is commonly seen as overrated?
Since when?

I thought he was commonly seen as a gimmick character and tossed to the wayside

He didn't say overrated, he said he's outlying the common opinion. Which has pretty much always been "yeah he's solid mid tier, whatever". I think the lack of ease of use the character presents is the real reason for his current results.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm surprised more people aren't using Mewtwo at this point. At worst he seems like a very powerful secondary choice.

 

[Radical Larry]

The data suggests a reasonable tier list would look like this, if tiered generously: (Miis omitted due to lack of sufficient data)











Notable holes in the data:

• and (and maybe ) are artificially results starved due to having superior alternatives. Take their bottom positions with huge grains of salt.
  
• Even bigger grain: Obviously is missing results in this sample and thus is way too low.
• and aren't just popular, they are filling out top 8s all over the world quite well. It's time to have a really frank discussion as to what level our tiering is really considering.
• Also, here's looking at you kid:
• fever hasn't actually caught on yet, hold your horses everybody.
  
• 's loss is 's gain.
  
• and refuse to behave like bottom tiers.

Minus a few of those mentioned odd cases, this list looks pretty solid. Anyone disagreeing with part of it has quite the burden of proof.



Popularity is all the character entries for all events (of any size) reported to Smashboards event rankings.

I readily recognize the fault in measuring popularity across all events but results from only large events. However, the additional accuracy this afforded popularity was worth it, and there should not be a large disparity. The few edge case problems like WFT are easy to identify.

I'm...
Actually, y'know what? I have barely have anything against this popularity/results tier list except for the placements of Samus, Link, Mewtwo and Cloud, who need to be much higher, a little higher, MUCH higher and a little lower, respectively. Otherwise, it's almost solid.

But if we take Europe into account...

 

[LancerStaff]

Interesting, I didnt know link and shulk were still overrated characters. I thought everyone thought that shulk was bottom 10.

Didn't include Shulk... A lot of people (not necessarily good players, and also no offense to those who do think so) think Link's more mid tier then bottom tier and people have called him overrated as a result.

Pacman is commonly seen as overrated?
Since when?

I thought he was commonly seen as a gimmick character and tossed to the wayside

A gimmick character that looks good when everything goes his way... Admittedly "overrated" is a bit of a stretch for Pac but for how many people are using him he's not winning that much.

 

[Thinkaman]

All of this data includes Europe, though it's possible that report rates vary between regions. (Especially Japan)

A version with minor adjustments to handle known outliers might read like:








This is almost verbatim what I'd say if you asked me my thoughts on current tiers, which is reassuring.

 

[Nu~]

A gimmick character that looks good when everything goes his way... Admittedly "overrated" is a bit of a stretch for Pac but for how many people are using him he's not winning that much.

Highly disagree with assessment, but there's something I want to correct....

Absolutely no one uses pacman lol.

Abadango dropped dropped him, Koolaid dropped him, Dee evaporated, Tea barely goes to tournaments...
When we had reps he did really well.

 

[Thinkaman]

Highly disagree with assessment, but there's something I want to correct....

Absolutely no one uses pacman lol.

Abadango dropped dropped him, Koolaid dropped him, Dee evaporated, Tea barely goes to tournaments...
When we had reps he did really well.

Top players aside, there are actually WAY more Pac-Man players today than ever before.

For a long time, Pac was the least used non-Mii character in the game. Now he's not even bottom 10 in usage.

 

[Nu~]

Top players aside, there are actually WAY more Pac-Man players today than ever before.

For a long time, Pac was the least used non-Mii character in the game. Now he's not even bottom 10 in usage.

Interesting...
Perhaps we still have a lot of pac-power lying dormant under the surface.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Who here #AllMyCharactersSuck ?

REPRESENT
E
P
R
E
S
E
N
T

Spoiler

;____;

All of this data includes Europe, though it's possible that report rates vary between regions. (Especially Japan)

A version with minor adjustments to handle known outliers might read like:








This is almost verbatim what I'd say if you asked me my thoughts on current tiers, which is reassuring.

I'm a bit confused about some of the spots on this list, it doesn't seem to 100% match the chart. For example, in terms of results Olimar is slightly higher on the chart then Dedede yet here his placement is lower, could you please clarify?

 

[Aaron1997]

Nu~ The Resaon Dee disappeared because he change his name to guess who.... Tea

You Forgot about Ginko but I can understand because he either doesn't go to anything or when he does go to something, he might end up going all Rob instead.

Praying to god that Nairo's donation thingy gets Tea to Evo

 

[Nu~]

Nu~ The Resaon Dee disappeared because he change his name to guess who.... Tea

You Forgot about Ginko but I can understand because he either doesn't go to anything or when he does go to something, he might end up going all Rob instead.

Praying to god that Nairo's donation thingy gets Tea to Evo

Lol I feel silly.

Nairo set up a donation drive for Tea??
Oh it's time

 

[Aaron1997]

Nu~ No for any Japanese Player. Komo + 3 others. There is a chance that Tea could be sent to Evo

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm a bit confused about some of the spots on this list, it doesn't seem to 100% match the chart. For example, in terms of results Olimar is slightly higher on the chart then Dedede yet here his placement is lower, could you please clarify?

Something few appreciate is that popularity and usage is actually a pretty strong correlation with how good a character actually is. You draw the tier lines on a chart like that diagonally.

Someone who believes in zero character elasticity would insist that who people play is irrelevant to how could they are, and would insist on what you are saying. But we've already established that this is not reasonable. To see why in a clear way, consider the extreme case:


Suppose the Smash community gets a new player who suddenly wins every tourney with Mii Gunner. He does this consistently, but no one can replicate it--no one even bothers going Mii Gunner in tourneys.

Is Mii Gunner the best character in the game? If you insist that this is the case, no one can say your interpretation of "best character" is wrong, but at best it is functionally useless.

The fact that zero other players in this universe can win with Mii Gunner (or even bother) suggest the success is far more about the player than the character. It's a huge warning flag that maybe something weird is going on and Mii Gunner himself isn't actually that amazing.


The best and most simple way to look at is, is that all of these factors are "votes." Who wins is a vote, but who the players choose to play as when they are competitors are votes too.

The very fact that perceived strength IS strongly correlated with popularity makes all of this beyond question. Of this matter, neither elasticity "school of thought" denies the relationship.

 

[Xandercosm]

Something few appreciate is that popularity and usage is actually a pretty strong correlation with how good a character actually is. You draw the tier lines on a chart like that diagonally.

Someone who believes in zero character elasticity would insist that who people play is irrelevant to how could they are, and would insist on what you are saying. But we've already established that this is not reasonable. To see why in a clear way, consider the extreme case:


Suppose the Smash community gets a new player who suddenly wins every tourney with Mii Gunner. He does this consistently, but no one can replicate it--no one even bothers going Mii Gunner in tourneys.

Is Mii Gunner the best character in the game? If you insist that this is the case, no one can say your interpretation of "best character" is wrong, but at best it is functionally useless.

The fact that zero other players in this universe can win with Mii Gunner (or even bother) suggest the success is far more about the player than the character. It's a huge warning flag that maybe something weird is going on and Mii Gunner himself isn't actually that amazing.


The best and most simple way to look at is, is that all of these factors are "votes." Who wins is a vote, but who the players choose to play as when they are competitors are votes too.

The very fact that perceived strength IS strongly correlated with popularity makes all of this beyond question. Of this matter, neither elasticity "school of thought" denies the relationship.

While I would agree that popularity is probably correlated with viability, I think there are examples of situations where this simply is not the case. Take Ganondorf, for example; He is very popular at the local and regional level due to being very unforgiving of mistakes (the kinds of mistakes a mid-level player will make enough for him to capitalize on). However, at high and top level, Ganondorf does not do very well due to being a fundamentally flawed character that cannot survive against players who make so few mistakes.

I just think that it's not as clear cut as you say, at least.

 

[PK Gaming]

Watch this excellent Ike guide that also doubles as a thesis on why his moveset is easily one of the best in the franchise

And before anyone asks, i'm not trying to "appease" Ike mains. I genuinely think he has one of the greatest movesets in Smash Bros from a design standpoint.

What other characters do you think have great movesets?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Watch this excellent Ike guide that also doubles as a thesis on why his moveset is easily one of the best in the franchise

And before anyone asks, i'm not trying to "appease" Ike mains. I genuinely think he has one of the greatest movesets in Smash Bros from a design standpoint.

What other characters do you think have great movesets?

Man I thought our footstool combo cap was 60% damage, not 80% damage. Awesome.

Even if his mobility hurts it overall, I always liked Robin's moveset. Feels very much like a tactician's moveset: in theory an option for almost every situation. Just need to be able to read your opponent enough to capitalize on it.

I also like Sonic's moveset. I just love all of the different ways he can move around the stage. If I didn't have arthritis problems I'd secondary him.

 

[Trifroze]

Should note something no one has noted yet which is that biases still play a considerable part here. We're all trying to play scientists, but this thread itself has a fairly unified idea of the tier list, especially the top 10 area.

Recognizing big tournaments and taking all of them into account is easy enough, but different kinds of tournaments are ranked subjectively, and different placings are scored subjectively.

What's the importance ratio between the quality of the players and the quantity of the players when measuring the level of the tournament?

How much value should be given to secondaries and how do you measure how much work each character in a given player's repertoire did?

Scoring autocorrects itself for the most part because, while it should take into account not just the mere result of a character but the path they worked their way through to reach it, it should all technically even out in the end when the sample becomes large enough. The one we're looking at right now is not large though. Especially among the top tiers, their placings largely depend on which top players happened to be particularly active during this period, as well as which top player happened to beat another one in the tournaments that are given the most weight.

Take a relatively small sample with many tournaments left out, the randomness of player attendance, the flaws of the scoring system (not that it's practical to ever make one perfect or even great) and compile them. Then take this compilation of results, change the positions up a bit to your liking and you'll have yourself pretty much the kind of list you want as long as your biases aren't completely detached from the reality.

Wait past the summer, at least. I don't remember perfectly how the scoring works, but smaller tournaments should score top 8, bigger ones 16, stacked ones top 32 and supermajors top 64 or more. You get the idea. And pretty much any tournament with close to 100 players or more should be counted: if you can get high spots in a tournament like that, then it's more indicative of competitive play than leaving all those results out from the data is.

 

[Dre89]

"unpunishable" isnt really the correct word, there are several characters that can punish it well. Charizard from my experience can punish it with his own up special and thats hella scary

If you wan't to short hop nair spam be my guest, just gonna get ****ed up by a projectile or any character who doesn't have Pikachu/Mario tier range, same goes for dtilt
Bullet climax can't really be used to force approaches because of the angle the move is at, I can see bullet arts being used but considering most top/high tiers have great mobility specs or a better projectile its going to be punished. Heelslide and ABK are good but against characters with amazing ground based movesets like Mewtwo, Little Mac, Ryu, or Marth i can't see it being of much use

You don't spam nair, you spam short hops. It's then a 50/50 between whether you land with AC nair, or if you fast fall into dtilt or dashgrab. You only use rising aerials if you read a jump.

I'm only suggesting that bullets be used if someone isn't approaching, and doesn't have s projectile of their own. That's why I listed it as a surplus tool and not part of her core neural.

Heelslide and ABK from neutral are for reads, I'm not saying to use them liberally. People ocassionally land these moves in high level play so it's not like there's some mythical level of play where these options don't work as infrequent mix ups.

 

[bc1910]

I'm...
Actually, y'know what? I have barely have anything against this popularity/results tier list except for the placements of Samus, Link, Mewtwo and Cloud, who need to be much higher, a little higher, MUCH higher and a little lower, respectively. Otherwise, it's almost solid.

But if we take Europe into account...

There is no reason to raise Link. The data actually suggests that he's a negative outlier, with worse results than his popularity would suggest.

This does include European results. I'd wager that's why Link is even as high as he is.

 

[TDK]

is strange. When you look at his toolkit, he's a top 10 character, but he's not a popular pick at tournaments, so a results-based list makes him a mid tier. Strange.

 

[HeavyLobster]

While I would agree that popularity is probably correlated with viability, I think there are examples of situations where this simply is not the case. Take Ganondorf, for example; He is very popular at the local and regional level due to being very unforgiving of mistakes (the kinds of mistakes a mid-level player will make enough for him to capitalize on). However, at high and top level, Ganondorf does not do very well due to being a fundamentally flawed character that cannot survive against players who make so few mistakes.

I just think that it's not as clear cut as you say, at least.

To be fair, Ray Kalm did come dangerously close to taking a game off of Zero, so it's not as if he magically becomes non-threatening at a certain level of play. Most of Dorf's high tier MUs feel around 4-6 to me, and are doable if you're willing to grind out and really master them, though there are a couple of MUs where you simply need a CP to realistically be able to win. I've mentioned before that Dorf has an attendance problem when it comes to majors, with Kalm getting top 96 at GOML after being eliminated by Zero and a Sheik main as the only real example of a top Dorf at a megatourney. Even Dorf I feel is sort of workable at a top level with a strong secondary, though if you've got a strong enough secondary to be able to KO top Sheiks and the like, you're probably just better off maining said character.

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo's harder and by design less consistent than say... Cloud or Mario or Rosalina. I'd wager that's enough to scare him down a few spots in popularity. And it also seems to indicate that the character's post-Pound wave of hype has died down, so all the <content redacted> don't care about him anymore. He's good af though, no doubt about that.

 

[LancerStaff]

is strange. When you look at his toolkit, he's a top 10 character, but he's not a popular pick at tournaments, so a results-based list makes him a mid tier. Strange.

It could be that he's overrated... Just a thought.

On that note, unpopular opinion time. Sheik is underrated, and the data supports this.

 

[Nu~]

It could be that he's overrated... Just a thought.

Hold on a minute
you're not going to immediately change the subject after dropping a bomb like this lol

Explain plz

 

[LancerStaff]

Hold on a minute
you're not going to immediately change the subject after dropping a bomb like this lol

Explain plz

Sorry, I don't think Mewtwo is super overrated. Like, slightly. More top 15 then top 10.

I only said it because Mewtwo doesn't have a lot of players and the data suggests that the ones he has aren't winning that much. Just an interesting observation of the data is all...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I do actually agree that Mewtwo isn't a top 10 character.

Still pretty good though. I just... don't think the data supports it. Even with all of his buffs, I think his weight means its hard to use him consistently through a large tournament. Very much an extreme glass cannon, the most in the game. It would certainly explain the results: decently popular with middle of the road results on average. Given what we've seen at the top level for Mewtwo, this would certainly suggest that its really difficult to do THAT well with Mewtwo consistently.

 

[bc1910]

Mewtwo has only seen modest success outside of Aba's incredible run at Pound, which could easily be put down to MU inexperience. Modest might be the wrong word, but overall his results without Pound would land him in the 10-15 or even 15-20 range of characters. Even lower at the moment.

Not to say I think he's overrated, I think his kit is amazing. But his weight does breed inconsistency which is likely the most crippling thing at high level.

Outside of, like, being a bad character.

 

[Ninety]

To be clear, these results only take into account the young 1.1.6 meta, right?

 

[LancerStaff]

To be clear, these results only take into account the young 1.1.6 meta, right?

And 1.1.5 for every character besides Bayo, actually.

 

[Jehtt]

The data suggests a reasonable tier list would look like this, if tiered generously: (Miis omitted due to lack of sufficient data)

A reasonable tier list for what exactly? If I'm not mistaken, it seems that this list is taking regional results in to heavier consideration than most tier lists do seeing the placements of characters like ROB or Peach, whose results tend to fall off at top-level competitions... A tier list which mostly considers top level play almost certainly wouldn't see DK above Ness, right?

 

[TDK]

All of this data includes Europe, though it's possible that report rates vary between regions. (Especially Japan)

A version with minor adjustments to handle known outliers might read like:








This is almost verbatim what I'd say if you asked me my thoughts on current tiers, which is reassuring.

The biggest thing that stands out to me, outside of being really low, on this one is . I've never found his theory that great (Having no air game and a problem getting around shields, for instance) and he seems really easy to gimp. Do people just keep running into smashes or something?