Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Ignore this

 

[Das Koopa]

Just wondering who did MM lose to? Was it one of the four our of Aussie people?

MM lost to Jezmo in winner's side then was eliminated by Ghostbone in loser's bracket.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

MM lost to Jezmo in winner's side then was eliminated by Ghostbone in loser's bracket.

Oh ok thanks. I was hoping for a Palu to make top 8, but dreams are sadly dreams just like falln being dq'd



EDIT:Because he had to leave Ik the reasoning

 

[Fex13]

i hope people finally realise that cloud does NOT need further nerfs. hes probably the most overrated character in this game by now and not doing anything(solo) at the moment. cloud is only good, if the player is good. (i know, thats true for every character, but imo for cloud in partcular since he thrives off having good fundamentals so much)

 

[G. Stache]

So, ConCon made his Luigi MU chart...

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrconcon321/status/731594280976814081/photo/1

Not sure how I feel about some placements. Mario and Pika definitely still feel like winning MUs imo, and Greninja and Toon Link definitely aren't in our favor (though I think the MU against Toon Link is very stage dependent, so I can kinda see why he would think that). Other than that, I'm not sure how I feel about ZSS anymore against Luigi. I don't get to face a lot of ZSS's who know what they're doing. But when I do, it doesn't feel like a huge disadvantage to be honest. Probably because I'm used to pre patch ZSS jank, but it's worth a mention.

Oh, just noticed. ConCon probably hasn't gone up against a good Zard (not many have). But that MU is definitely even. Not a winning MU. And if you guys have any questions for my comments on ConCon's chart, feel free to ask and I'll get to you later. I'm just not able to go into great detail right now.

 

[Routa]

I disagree with his placing of Miis.

Gunner MU is generally tough to be either even or in favour of Gunner. At lower lvls of play Gunner has big advantage, but in higher lvls it is pretty much even. It comes down to power shielding. Luigi is one of thous characters that has hard time getting in when fighting Gunner. Once he gets in he can neutralize all the damage done by Gunner quickly. The same thing applies to DK. Like I said this MU is all about neutral.

Brawler MU is pretty much the same as Mario.

As for Swordspider... It comes down which set he has. Chakram helps Swordspider a lot in this MU. Along with SSD (improves edgeguarding game). From my experience and in theory the MU is even or slightly in favour of Luigi. Luigi's recovery is linear and slowish which makes it an easy target for Swordspider edgeguarding. Luigi also struggles against Chakram spam in neutral. Landing is also a problem for Luigi in this MU.
So what makes it even or slightly in favour of Luigi? CQC. Luigi's frame data is amazing. Swordspider struggles at fighting characters with greater CQC and does well against characters with similar or slower frame data. Just like Gunner MU it comes down to neutral (gee it seems like this play is all about neutral).

 

[Y2Kay]

There is zero evidence to suggest Luigi beats Greninja.

Techei recently beat Boss, and iStudying eats alive any Luigi he faces in bracket (including Boss and Luigi Player).

I'm pretty sure greninja solidly wins that match up. I hope he isn't basing this off of his matches with 2GG Strides.

 

[Vyrnx]

sick of these awful MU charts. At this point there are like ten different characters including Luigi, Bowser, and Pikachu that lose ~5 matchups.

 

[aεrgiα]

So, ConCon made his Luigi MU chart...

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrconcon321/status/731594280976814081/photo/1

Not sure how I feel about some placements. Mario and Pika definitely still feel like winning MUs imo, and Greninja and Toon Link definitely aren't in our favor (though I think the MU against Toon Link is very stage dependent, so I can kinda see why he would think that). Other than that, I'm not sure how I feel about ZSS anymore against Luigi. I don't get to face a lot of ZSS's who know what they're doing. But when I do, it doesn't feel like a huge disadvantage to be honest. Probably because I'm used to pre patch ZSS jank, but it's worth a mention.

Oh, just noticed. ConCon probably hasn't gone up against a good Zard (not many have). But that MU is definitely even. Not a winning MU. And if you guys have any questions for my comments on ConCon's chart, feel free to ask and I'll get to you later. I'm just not able to go into great detail right now.

that spread looks really optimistic... i mean only 5 (slightly) losing mus, thats close to/is a top tier mu spread :/
but id be interested on your thoughts on the lucas mu, its a mu i personally struggle with(with any character) but iirc a lot of lucas mains consider it lucas advantage, and in terms of theory i would say its either even or in lucas' advantage :/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Regarding Bayonetta's matchups it's perhaps worth pointing out that there's at least three somewhat well documented matchups where tournament results are decisively not in her favor right now: Mega Man, Sheik [both are losing records] and Mewtwo [pretty even]. All three of them operate similarly against Bayonetta and seem to do well for similar reasons: all three of them have projectiles that are designed for mid- to long range combat and none of them has to do a great deal of approaching her. All three characters generally try to engage their opponents in the mid-range zone because that's where their tools seem to work out best. Closing out opponents' stocks isn't exactly among their main selling points [except for Mewtwo] and Sheik is the only of those three characters with overaverage close-range competence. Mega Man is not particularly good at getting KOs and his close-range combat is pretty average, yet he's the character with the strongest record against Bayonetta so far.

This reveals two of her potential weaknesses: while she's exceedingly strong in CQC, she doesn't seem to be particularly good at closing the gap from close- to mid-range. In other words: she's somewhat prone to getting outcamped. Her grounded mobility options aren't very useful for approaching purposes and while her aerials are useful combo tools and cover options nicely they don't help her to close any gaps between herself and her opponent.
For all the hype there's been regarding her so-called 0-death comboes, getting a KO has consistently been a bit of a problem for her so far. While her damage output on paper looks good enough to cover that weakness she can't play to her strengths if she's not able to approach certain characters appropriately.

[Speculation]: Characters whose gameplan revolves mostly around mid-range camping and zoning are almost always problematic for Bayonetta regardless of KO potential. While she may be easier to play than other top tier characters and manhandle her opponents in close range combat she'll be increasingly frustrating to play as and at least Diddy Kong and Sheik will eventually get the better of her, barring any significant nerfs. Though her 'weaknesses' can be abused they're probably not that big and they're somewhat specific - there probably won't be more than a few characters that will end up having the advantage against her - so she'll remain top tier.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Regarding Bayonetta's matchups it's perhaps worth pointing out that there's at least three somewhat well documented matchups where tournament results are decisively not in her favor right now: Mega Man, Sheik [both are losing records] and Mewtwo [pretty even]. All three of them operate similarly against Bayonetta and seem to do well for similar reasons: all three of them have projectiles that are designed for mid- to long range combat and none of them has to do a great deal of approaching her. All three characters generally try to engage their opponents in the mid-range zone because that's where their tools seem to work out best. Closing out opponents' stocks isn't exactly among their main selling points [except for Mewtwo] and Sheik is the only of those three characters with overaverage close-range competence. Mega Man is not particularly good at getting KOs and his close-range combat is pretty average, yet he's the character with the strongest record against Bayonetta so far.

This reveals two of her potential weaknesses: while she's exceedingly strong in CQC, she doesn't seem to be particularly good at closing the gap from close- to mid-range. In other words: she's somewhat prone to getting outcamped. Her grounded mobility options aren't very useful for approaching purposes and while her aerials are useful combo tools and cover options nicely they don't help her to close any gaps between herself and her opponent.
For all the hype there's been regarding her so-called 0-death comboes, getting a KO has consistently been a bit of a problem for her so far. While her damage output on paper looks good enough to cover that weakness she can't play to her strengths if she's not able to approach certain characters appropriately.

[Speculation]: Characters whose gameplan revolves mostly around mid-range camping and zoning are almost always problematic for Bayonetta regardless of KO potential. While she may be easier to play than other top tier characters and manhandle her opponents in close range combat she'll be increasingly frustrating to play as and at least Diddy Kong and Sheik will eventually get the better of her, barring any significant nerfs. Though her 'weaknesses' can be abused they're probably not that big and they're somewhat specific - there probably won't be more than a few characters that will end up having the advantage against her - so she'll remain top tier.

I hear people say Sonic has a decent mu vs bayonetta, but I think that Melborne helps supports Mewtwo beating Bayo as even the game he lost Abadango had great control.

 

[C0rvus]

ShadowGuy1 Or because Abadango is likely a better player and has more Bayo experience than Ghost has Mewtwo experience. Matchups are NOT that cut and dry.

Edit: Well, I agree with the overall point, but I think the gap makes me wary of saying anything better than even for the MU.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Or because Abadango is likely a better player and has more Bayo experience than Ghost has Mewtwo experience. Matchups are NOT that cut and dry.

But what about 9B?

 

[C0rvus]

I'm not aware of 9B and Abadango's record. My post was a response to the assertion that this result pushes the MU into advantage territory for Mewtwo. Then I went back and read the context of the post, and I see what he means. Whooopsssss.

Remember to consider context, folks.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I hear people say Sonic has a decent mu vs bayonetta, but I think that Melborne helps supports Mewtwo beating Bayo as even the game he lost Abadango had great control.

Sonic does operate in a similar "zone" as the characters I mentioned do so it wouldn't be surprising if he did decently. Unlike Mega Man he can't avoid close range combat entirely though so I expect the matchup to be somewhat even. Definitely not easy for Bayonetta though.

 

[HoSmash4]

Bayonetta can't get in on spin dash cancelling sonic but Sonic has a plethora of moves with long active frames that leave him open to witch times.

 

[KamikazePotato]

All these MU charts have taught me is that maybe we should wait another year or two before trying to create anything resembling an official tier list. I think they're almost universally disagreed upon and it shows just how a consensus really can't be formed yet.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

All these MU charts have taught me is that maybe we should wait another year or two before trying to create anything resembling an official tier list. I think they're almost universally disagreed upon and it shows just how a consensus really can't be formed yet.

Pokemon ORAS has had a few minor changes to its metagame every now and then, and yet we see drastic metagame shifts and tier shifts because people discover new things or are inclined to use new tools that change how teams are built. Smash, while a completely different game, plays by the same rules as any other competitive meta with drastic shifts over time.

Even without DLC content or patches, a game will always take very long before players optimize certain strategies or discover all the potential to be had. If we waited for the meta to "settle" before making a tier list, we'd be waiting probably a little under a decade.

Also, periodic tier lists, even if they become outdated, are good records of different metagame eras, and it's good to have those.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Pokemon ORAS has had a few minor changes to its metagame every now and then, and yet we see drastic metagame shifts and tier shifts because people discover new things or are inclined to use new tools that change how teams are built. Smash, while a completely different game, plays by the same rules as any other competitive meta with drastic shifts over time.

Even without DLC content or patches, a game will always take very long before players optimize certain strategies or discover all the potential to be had. If we waited for the meta to "settle" before making a tier list, we'd be waiting probably a little under a decade.

Also, periodic tier lists, even if they become outdated, are good records of different metagame eras, and it's good to have those.

Melee has this type of tier lists. Remember when Sheik was considered number 1? Those were the old times lol.

Also: People really should watch this tournament. 6WX and C3PO are doing an amazing performance at doubles, the same with Seagull, Feel Tension, James and Apple. https://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments And they will also have singles. So this looks like a great tournament for Diddy and Sonic results.

 

[BunbUn129]

https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

Top 8 (or 7) for Level Up is on now.

On Winners side:

Tyrant

Nairo

Void

Larry Lurr

On Losers side:

K9

Saiki

Scatt

Fall , NOTE: Falln has forfeited.

 

[|RK|]

K9's Diddy got rocked by Saiki. How many Diddy players do well in the Sheik matchup (at the top level) other than ZeRo?

 

[BunbUn129]

He fair-planed him to death like, 3 times?

Edit: K9 just got eliminated 3-2 by Saiki.

Edit: Nairo 3-0'd Tyrant and sent him to losers.

 

[sedrf]

Scatt being wailed on by tyrant's heik
The mega/sheik matchup is suffering

 

[Flux0r]

Scatt takes it 3-2 over Tyrant.

Interesting choice to opt for Sheik.

I'm starting to question if it's just Tyrant or Meta Knight struggling with the patch. Could be both.

 

[Tizio Random]

We shoriuken! Scatt 3-2 over Tyrant

 

[BunbUn129]

Tyrant's problem has always been favoring consistency over optimization. For example, below 30%, he almost always goes for up smash out of a d throw regardless of DI, when he could get 29% off d throw -> nado against DI up, or d throw -> dash attack -> aerial follow-up against DI away. This wasn't a glaring issue before because Tyrant could always count on MK being able to convert virtually any hit into a kill. Now without that clutch factor, Tyrant opting for sub-optimal combos and follow-ups is a much more detrimental tendency.

It's both Tyrant and the nerfs, but I think Tyrant's habits are a bigger issue overall, considering the MK vs MM match-up is even or 55-45 in MK's favor.

 

[G. Stache]

that spread looks really optimistic... i mean only 5 (slightly) losing mus, thats close to/is a top tier mu spread :/
but id be interested on your thoughts on the lucas mu, its a mu i personally struggle with(with any character) but iirc a lot of lucas mains consider it lucas advantage, and in terms of theory i would say its either even or in lucas' advantage :/

Spoilers: I do think that ConCon is very optimistic with his MU chart in a lot of regards. And, while he placed a few characters as even that are probably in Luigi's favor still (Pika and Mario still come to mind. And the Falco MU is definitely better than only a slight advantage for Luigi), he placed a lot of characters in places that are very optimistic for Luigi. Hell, he has no right placing Greninja anywhere on the list, much less in Luigi's advantage. He even admitted once on Twitter: "I have yet to play a good Greninja". Other than that, ConCon seems to be an Esam level optimist for his character. This is the amazing MU spread I'd expect Pre patch Luigi to have. The more I look at the MU chart, the more things I want to correct. Perhaps it's better if I stop bringing it up.

Moving on, Lucas is weird and there aren't a lot of Top Lucases and Luigis duking it out. The most we have to go on, I believe, are the games between Pink Fresh and Boss. Iirc (not completely clear on the exact record) they went back and forth in games and we're pretty even. Either that or I'm remembering wrong. The thing with Lucas is that, while his neutral can be very oppressive, it's still definitely not Sheik levels of oppressive and it feels like Luigi always has at least something. That, and the fact that Lucas is a floaty (as in, Luigi can use his more damaging combos early) means that if Luigi gets the chance, he can run away with the lead early on. Edgeguarding is risky against Lucas, but possible. And it obviously leads to good reward. If anyone who mains Lucas wants to chime in and give their side to the fight, then be my guest. I know I've heard about a lot of these footstool combos and other very damaging combos that Lucas can put out, but I'm unaware of how reliable they are on a floaty like Luigi. I'm hesitant on placing an exact opinion on the MU since I'm personally not too familiar with it, but it seems closer to even than anything else. But take what I say with a couple grains of salt

 

[bc1910]

Fox looks much worse than Sheik for MM. That was a massacre, really. I recall Scatt doing much better vs Larry at Pound?

 

[Appledees]

Fox looks much worse than Sheik for MM. That was a massacre, really. I recall Scatt doing much better vs Larry at Pound?

To be fair Scatt was playing really off during those matches. He kept doing really unnecessary airdodges(especially near the end of that last stock last game) and his recovery options were the same every time. He never tried to mix them up against Fox. He took like 20-30 damage near the ledge.

Larry was playing really good and Fox's ledge options are honestly scary to deal with but Scatt wasn't adapting that well to most of Fox's options during the MU there.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox vs MM isn't that bad.

Mega Man generally looks pretty viable now though. Sheik has been nerfed and Sheik mains are few and far between now. That's one big plus. Bayonetta is everywhere now and Mega Man does well against her. That's the other big plus. His other losing matchups aren't particularly common either.

 

[Das Koopa]

Nairo wins LEVEL UP EXPO 3-2 over VoiD in Grand Finals.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Nairo wins LEVEL UP EXPO 3-2 over VoiD in Grand Finals.

This is going to be the set that becomes a giphy for the signatures of every pro 3 stock player out there

 

[Asdioh]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016051519252389
This is the only thing I've seen from these tournaments today, and like... it's 2016, and people are still letting Sheik take them to Smashville so she can get free stocks with the platform.
I frequently strike SV on principle, simply because so many people like it, and because there are a lot of characters that can do this kind of silliness. I would imagine Diddy would do better on FD or BF than SV. Even T&C or Lylat are good too.


edit: then I checked reddit to see if I could find any oddshots that would explain why you said this

This is going to be the set that becomes a giphy for the signatures of every pro 3 stock player out there

And I see this: http://puu.sh/oTbbu/18e37594aa.png notice the Smashville game. Granted, I didn't see the set, so I don't know if any "smashville stuff" happened, but it's a high possibility!

 

[ARISTOS]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/vgbootcamp-2016051519252389
This is the only thing I've seen from these tournaments today, and like... it's 2016, and people are still letting Sheik take them to Smashville so she can get free stocks with the platform.
I frequently strike SV on principle, simply because so many people like it, and because there are a lot of characters that can do this kind of silliness. I would imagine Diddy would do better on FD or BF than SV. Even T&C or Lylat are good too.

What was the ruleset for the tournament? If it was 3 stages then he's likely pretty limited (3 stage rulesets are always awful)

Personally, I'd love to strike SV, but then I get struck to FD :/

 

[Das Koopa]

http://puu.sh/oTbbu/18e37594aa.png notice the Smashville game. Granted, I didn't see the set, so I don't know if any "smashville stuff" happened, but it's a high possibility!

The game on Smashville was less than a minute

yes smashville stuff happened

 

[Funkermonster]

So, ConCon made his Luigi MU chart...

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrconcon321/status/731594280976814081/photo/1

Not sure how I feel about some placements. Mario and Pika definitely still feel like winning MUs imo, and Greninja and Toon Link definitely aren't in our favor (though I think the MU against Toon Link is very stage dependent, so I can kinda see why he would think that). Other than that, I'm not sure how I feel about ZSS anymore against Luigi. I don't get to face a lot of ZSS's who know what they're doing. But when I do, it doesn't feel like a huge disadvantage to be honest. Probably because I'm used to pre patch ZSS jank, but it's worth a mention.

Oh, just noticed. ConCon probably hasn't gone up against a good Zard (not many have). But that MU is definitely even. Not a winning MU. And if you guys have any questions for my comments on ConCon's chart, feel free to ask and I'll get to you later. I'm just not able to go into great detail right now.

He put Mega Man as an even MU with Luigi? Can't comment on anything else but this one puzzles me quite a lot. Before Weegee was nerfed, I remember many saying that MM was one of the best counterpicks to him and his possible worst MU: Can't get in vs Lemons and fireballs were almost neutralized by them. Imo was pretty much the only top/high tier MM ever consistently defeated (although I do think he has +1s against Sonic, Diddy, Ryu, Ness, and Villager), and it was made even easier when the nerfs did come.

His reward is still a lot higher than ours for sure, but I do not see what could've changed the MU since then. If you or anyone else could maybe elaborate on why he might think that, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Das Koopa]

LVL UP Expo 2016 Top 16

1st: Nairo
2nd: VoiD
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Scatt ,
5th: Saiki
5th: Tyrant ,
7th: K9
7th: Falln
9th: Z
9th: FOW
9th: Doomlion
9th: Xzax
13th: Calculus
13th: JK
13th: Lycan
13th: Horse

 

[DblCrest]

Nice to see other Rosa and Pika mains getting some results.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

So...about luigi...

 

[Charoite]

not so good performance for this weekend, both seagull joe and 6wx got eliminated in SMASH ADELPHIA, it seems that luigi is having better placements around high or top level tournaments post nerfs, before the nerfs he was getting very good results around regional and local level, but at a national level this results were underwhelming.