Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Lol_Utah]

This game. Lol.

Being forced to not rely on Fireball > Grab 24/7 can really help a character out.

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

Fun fact: Abadango has now taken a set off of three of the the top 4 Sheiks with Mewtwo.
Who are the top 4 sheiks ?

 

[Das Koopa]

I assume he means Aba has taken sets off of VoiD, Vinnie, and Mr. R.

But Vinnie's spot as #4 is highly debatable now

 

[Y2Kay]

He hasn't fought Vinnie as Mewtwo yet tho

I believe he beat Void twice, and K9, and took sets off of Mr. R

 

[BTVolta]

Being forced to not rely on Fireball > Grab 24/7 can really help a character out.

Kinda nitpicky, but I don't believe that was true. I think a lot of Luigi mains in this thread pointed it out multiple times. If you shield it or jab the fireball it was probably true, but body blocking it or total avoidance was usually the best coarse(still is).

 

[Djent]

It's not at all clear who the 4th best is right now, but Aba beating VoiD and Mr-R is enough to suggest has an evenish matchup with her. Sheik may win up close, but Mewtwo's midrange game is actually formidable enough for him to keep up, and of course he seals stocks much better than she does. My guess is that at the very least, there are several other characters he would less rather face.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I'm now convinced that diddy has a pretty serious problem vs zoning, especially at high percents. That set vs peach was hard to watch. It could just be that diddys need to step up their rushdown game.

 

[Yonder]

LVL UP Expo 2016 Top 16

1st: Nairo
2nd: VoiD
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Scatt ,
5th: Saiki
5th: Tyrant ,
7th: K9
7th: Falln
9th: Z
9th: FOW
9th: Doomlion
9th: Xzax
13th: Calculus
13th: JK
13th: Lycan
13th: Horse

4 Sheiks in the top 8. And some people said Sakurai nerfed her too much. Diddy Kong got the same overall nerf treatment and remains extremely popular. What this tells us is that only characters that get a tool that centralizes their entire game plan go down (Luigi, MK). Solid characters overall just...remain solid characters. They don't really have one tool that players exploited, they are a complete kit.

I wonder if Bayonetta would go down if witch time got nerfed significantly? Because that's the only tool I feel honestly needs adjusting. Why am I losing a stock over a jab? Not even Shulk on smash mode counter can do that to a jab.

 

[Pancracio17]

I wonder if Bayonetta would go down if witch time got nerfed significantly? Because that's the only tool I feel honestly needs adjusting. Why am I losing a stock over a jab? Not even Shulk on smash mode counter can do that to a jab.

that isnt bayo's overcentralizing tool though, you can go a whole set without using it once, its both divekick and witch twist that centralize her to make 0-death.

 

[Yonder]

that isnt bayo's overcentralizing tool though, you can go a whole set without using it once, its both divekick and witch twist that centralize her to make 0-death.

I still feel that Bayo's 0 death stuff can eventually be SDI'd with practice. Could be wrong. But some characters already have tools to make her weary of using her ladder (Greninja shadow sneak off the top, along with Mario's up b) maybe there are more tools we haven't found out yet?

 

[Das Koopa]

opinion on sheiks

Tier 1: ZeRo, Mr. R, VoiD
Tier 2: Vinnie, Rain, K9, Cacogen, False
Tier 3: Karna, Trevonte, Light, Tyrant, Zex

something like that

 

[ZSaberLink]

Btw, I was watching part of BAM8's top 8 and noticed that during the Bayo vs. Olimar match, GhostBane never used Witch Time when he had Pikmin on him and Olimar was right next to him. Was Ghost not aware of it or is it some type of gentleman's agreement there?

 

[Illuminose]

opinion on sheiks

Tier 1: ZeRo, Mr. R, VoiD
Tier 2: Vinnie, Rain, K9, Cacogen, False
Tier 3: Karna, Trevonte, Light, Tyrant, Zex

something like that

pretty accurate apart from the lack of edge, who is a tier 1 sheik

i also think vinnie could easily be tier 1 but we have a lack of result depth

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

opinion on sheiks

Tier 1: ZeRo, Mr. R, VoiD
Tier 2: Vinnie, Rain, K9, Cacogen, False
Tier 3: Karna, Trevonte, Light, Tyrant, Zex

something like that

Might be time soon to add Saiki in the mix, he's had such a breakout performance.

 

[Charoite]

The real broken move bayo has is grounded Witch twist, is a frame 4 move, that can do ridiculous damage or potentially kill at the top, has very big hitboxes, is very difficult to punish, is very good OOS, mitigates Bayo slow frame data , there is a reason why Tyroy spam the move, there is no reason to not spam, at worst you return to neutral.

If you want to dethrone Bayo of the top tier, nerf the startup of the move and the hitboxes, the chance 0-to death lowered to.

 

[ぱみゅ]

not so good performance for this weekend, both seagull joe and 6wx got eliminated in SMASH ADELPHIA, it seems that luigi is having better placements around high or top level tournaments post nerfs, before the nerfs he was getting very good results around regional and local level, but at a national level this results were underwhelming.

Wonf won a tournament over Regi.
From what I read he used Sonic and not Bayonetta (at least against Regi), but I am not sure.

The real broken move bayo has is grounded Witch twist, is a frame 4 move, that can do ridiculous damage or potentially kill at the top, has very big hitboxes, is very difficult to punish, is very good OOS, mitigates Bayo slow frame data , there is a reason why Tyroy spam the move, there is no reason to not spam, at worst you return to neutral.

If you want to dethrone Bayo of the top tier, nerf the startup of the move and the hitboxes, the chance 0-to death lowered to.

It has pretty bad horizontal range tho, run>WT isn't very effective against projectiles and disjoints, so its main use (ever) is OOS, which means the opponent was doing unsafe stuff anyway.

EDIT: And I am not saying it's not a good move, but Witch Twist itself is NOT the problem with Bayo's balance.
EDIT EDIT: Another thing worth noting is that good DI will result on grounded Witch Twist being unable to 0TD.

 

[Charoite]

Wonf won a tournament over Regi.
From what I read he used Sonic and not Bayonetta (at least against Regi), but I am not sure.


It has pretty bad horizontal range tho, run>WT isn't very effective against projectiles and disjoints, so its main use (ever) is OOS, which means the opponent was doing unsafe stuff anyway.

EDIT: And I am not saying it's not a good move, but Witch Twist itself is NOT the problem with Bayo's balance.
EDIT EDIT: Another thing worth noting is that good DI will result on grounded Witch Twist being unable to 0TD.

But it converts to great damage, even if can't kill with good DI, and i exaggerated with the "broken" part, i dont think any bayo move is particularly broken or that she is, maybe "very good" would be better, but can't deny that if the move was nerfed bayo would be drop a few places, her fastest move would be down tilt and is frame 7, faster characters would pressure better against bayo, and this defensive options would be worse and her punish too.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If she's supposed to be a combo-oriented character, I see nothing wrong with converting to big damage.
The move could be F6 and still be her fastest move, though a much worse OOS option and worse approach.

And the funniest part is that is that if that were to be changed, the REAL problem, her ability to kill at any %, would still be present.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah, Witch Twist isn't as abusive as I once thought. Divekick is the standout tool here, since it's safe and can be used to net kill combos AND allow her to often escape punishment from her RCO lag after using aerial specials. The move shouldn't be gutted, since I think she needs it. It gives her neutral and punish game that extra oomph that such a design needs to feel threatening. Problem is it's kinda abusive and also very strong in disadvantage.

 

[Djent]

pretty accurate apart from the lack of edge, who is a tier 1 sheik

I would agree except his Twitter profile indicates he quit Sm4sh for Splatoon.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I would agree except his Twitter profile indicates he quit Sm4sh for Splatoon.

I forgot Splatoon was even a thing
I'm like 95% sure it was as joke

 

[Djent]

Splatoon is actually pretty popular in Japan.

 

[Teshie U]

Isnt there a million dollar tournament series for that in Japan??

What does his post in april about bayonetta and cloud mean? dont tell me he quit over DLC.

 

[KamikazePotato]

The real broken move bayo has is grounded Witch twist, is a frame 4 move, that can do ridiculous damage or potentially kill at the top, has very big hitboxes, is very difficult to punish, is very good OOS, mitigates Bayo slow frame data , there is a reason why Tyroy spam the move, there is no reason to not spam, at worst you return to neutral.

Speaing of which:

The hitboxes aren't *that* huge...the real issue is with that Frame 4 hitbox at the beginning. That thing is really silly.

 

[Teshie U]

That move really should only hit above her. Its a damn good up B for safe recovery with that speed and disjoint, doesn't need to be the ultimate scooping move in neutral.

I understand putting reasonable amounts of lag/startup on these moves would ruin their ability to combo, but if he hitboxes were more precise, she wouldn't feel so silly.

 

[Nobie]

According to Edge's tweets, he stopped playing because of Bayonetta and Cloud, but not because they're overpowered or terrible characters or anything like that. Rather, it's because what he enjoys most is reading the opponent's movements and acting accordingly, but there's something about Bayonetta and Cloud that makes him lost interest in doing that for those characters. Also, he feels that there are basically too many Bayonettas and Clouds in Japan in general, and having to fight through tons of them made the game less interesting as a result.

 

[Big-Cat]

If she's supposed to be a combo-oriented character, I see nothing wrong with converting to big damage.
The move could be F6 and still be her fastest move, though a much worse OOS option and worse approach.

And the funniest part is that is that if that were to be changed, the REAL problem, her ability to kill at any %, would still be present.

What I'd like to see more of is her comboing from other moves besides her WTw and Side B.

I think reduction of hitboxes would reduce the issue of 0 to death.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Splatoon is actually pretty popular in Japan.

Isnt there a million dollar tournament series for that in Japan??

What does his post in april about bayonetta and cloud mean? dont tell me he quit over DLC.

i stand corrected, I still don't believe it tbh
Vinnie has put way to much into smash, i doubt hell just move on to something almost completely different

 

[ぱみゅ]

What I'd like to see more of is her comboing from other moves besides her WTw and Side B.

She has a lot of combo starters actually, the prime move is Dtilt.
Witch Twist requires her to ram in, Heel Slide is basically a hard read move, and ABdK is pretty much only for punishes.

I think reduction of hitboxes would reduce the issue of 0 to death.

Please explain how.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I still stand by the idea that making that very first hitbox of grounded Witch Twist do horizontal knockback would absolve a lot of issues.

It would make OoS WT a "proper", for lack of word, GTFO move, puts opponents in a bad-ish spot without it compromising their stock automatically because they misspaced just once, and keeps the combo nature of the move intact because the other hitboxes, i.e. the ones that would hit from Heel Slide, Dtilt, and Utilt, were left as is (except with Fair 1 but hey that move would get gutted alongside WT in such a patch because that move's too free). I don't see how anyone would argue against that.

 

[Teshie U]

She shouldn't have a gtfo move. Hell no one has an OoS option that safe.

 

[Big-Cat]

She has a lot of combo starters actually, the prime move is Dtilt.
Witch Twist requires her to ram in, Heel Slide is basically a hard read move, and ABdK is pretty much only for punishes.


Please explain how.

More precision which would likely reduce the likelihood of them happening. Much like how hitbox reductions can kill combos.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I still stand by the idea that making that very first hitbox of grounded Witch Twist do horizontal knockback would absolve a lot of issues.

It would make OoS WT a "proper", for lack of word, GTFO move, puts opponents in a bad-ish spot without it compromising their stock automatically because they misspaced just once, and keeps the combo nature of the move intact because the other hitboxes, i.e. the ones that would hit from Heel Slide, Dtilt, and Utilt, were left as is (except with Fair 1 but hey that move would get gutted alongside WT in such a patch because that move's too free). I don't see how anyone would argue against that.

Reverse it. Now it may link to itself, or setup for other combos.

More precision which would likely reduce the likelihood of them happening. Much like how hitbox reductions can kill combos.

Ok, that seems to affect her ability to combo at all, and inconsistent combos plus landing lag sounds like very likely to go wrong.
I'm quite tired to articulate correctly, but I am meaning to write something along the lines of "ZSS 2.0 with less raw killpower" and "dangerous to commit for the combo (you're already going to have 20+ frames end lag and there is the chance to miss, and if you get the hit you'd only get extra 8% [unfavorable risk-reward])".

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I feel like Kirby has been criminally underrated for a long time now and that despite not having the best results, I can see him as being a solid top 20 pick. Run speed being at 1.57 is rather lackluster in comparison to the other characters but he more than makes up for it with his other options. Kirby’s crouch has been discussed in-depth but something that’s been overlooked is that he also crouches when charging up smash. This not only gives him the ability to duck under hitboxes but also gives him a retaliation in the form of one of the strongest smash attacks in the game (stronger than Fox's U-Smash, by the way). Not to mention it can end stocks early when fully charged, which is possible on slightly laggier whiffs. The meta has stagnated a bit now but in the future, I don’t see why any Kirby would ever crouch at non-death percents when usmash exists. Additionally, he has a fsmash with the hitbox first appearing on frame 13 that kills most characters at 120% center stagewith a 361 launch angle and has a large amount of range given the lunge Kirby does. For the amount of range the lunge provides, I honestly find it a bit absurd how its frame data and and KB values can be anywhere near what they are now. The character definitely is strong.

Inhale acts as a solid anti-approach and the fact that it has a startup of 14 is quite generous given how useful the move is and, to be quite honest, how matchup-defining it can be even without factoring in copy abilities. Other than completely shield, the windbox attached to Inhale also outright beats a majority of the moves in the game. I did a test on Marth and found that even when Marth fsmashes on an Inhaling Kirby, the shifting of Marth’s hurtbox during the lunge is enough to succumb to the window even despite the sword disjoint. Currently, I have him as positive on Rosa, Sheik, Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and ZSS. His worst matchup is probably Luigi which is -1 at the very least.

Utilt is safe on shield with a +3 frame advantage, which is pretty absurd given it's reward on hit. Landing hit of Dair can frame sync to set up an even frame on shield which gives him the ability to pivot grab. Fthrow pops Kirby in the air right away and sets up a frame advantage allowing for a true combo into certain projectiles such as Charge Shot which is pretty dumb. Dair>Footstool, while appearing gimmicky, is legit, cannot be SDId (QC method does nothing), and is a disgustingly safe edgeguard option.

Really unpopular opinion given the current state of the meta but I can’t see Kirby as anything below top 20.

 

[LancerStaff]

She shouldn't have a gtfo move. Hell no one has an OoS option that safe.

It seems in line with the character to me... In a FFA she's supposed to be more of an opportunist. She's quite frail and her Smash attacks aren't incredibly powerful or fast, and have the whole terrible priority thing going against them. Most of the time she's trying a death combo while avoiding getting hit out of it, trying to Witch Time somebody without getting her kill stolen, or stealing somebody else's kill. These all require an opponent to act, or at least actively ignore her and the victim. There's other things to consider too, like how easy it is to punish her hitting somebody else's shield with ABK or how she'll likely have opponents on both sides after using her specials in the air.

If there wasn't an inherent risk in attacking her then she'd be what many people perceive Sheik as in FFAs: A character that's easy to kill and struggles to get kills.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I feel like Kirby has been criminally underrated for a long time now and that despite not having the best results, I can see him as being a solid top 20 pick. Run speed being at 1.57 is rather lackluster in comparison to the other characters but he more than makes up for it with his other options. Kirby’s crouch has been discussed in-depth but something that’s been overlooked is that he also crouches when charging up smash. This not only gives him the ability to duck under hitboxes but also gives him a retaliation in the form of one of the strongest smash attacks in the game (stronger than Fox's U-Smash, by the way). Not to mention it can end stocks early when fully charged, which is possible on slightly laggier whiffs. The meta has stagnated a bit now but in the future, I don’t see why any Kirby would ever crouch at non-death percents when usmash exists. Additionally, he has a fsmash with the hitbox first appearing on frame 13 that kills most characters at 120% center stagewith a 361 launch angle and has a large amount of range given the lunge Kirby does. For the amount of range the lunge provides, I honestly find it a bit absurd how its frame data and and KB values can be anywhere near what they are now. The character definitely is strong.

Inhale acts as a solid anti-approach and the fact that it has a startup of 14 is quite generous given how useful the move is and, to be quite honest, how matchup-defining it can be even without factoring in copy abilities. Other than completely shield, the windbox attached to Inhale also outright beats a majority of the moves in the game. I did a test on Marth and found that even when Marth fsmashes on an Inhaling Kirby, the shifting of Marth’s hurtbox during the lunge is enough to succumb to the window even despite the sword disjoint. Currently, I have him as positive on Rosa, Sheik, Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and ZSS. His worst matchup is probably Luigi which is -1 at the very least.

Utilt is safe on shield with a +3 frame advantage, which is pretty absurd given it's reward on hit. Landing hit of Dair can frame sync to set up an even frame on shield which gives him the ability to pivot grab. Fthrow pops Kirby in the air right away and sets up a frame advantage allowing for a true combo into certain projectiles such as Charge Shot which is pretty dumb. Dair>Footstool, while appearing gimmicky, is legit, cannot be SDId (QC method does nothing), and is a disgustingly safe edgeguard option.

Really unpopular opinion given the current state of the meta but I can’t see Kirby as anything below top 20.

I've always felt like Kirby was an extremely underrated character even though he has extremely solid results. He has a solid ground game and notable kill power. He also has extremely low landing lag (his overall landing lag is comparable to Sheik/ZSS just to put that in perspective) although the startup close to Bayonetta's. He still does have some notable matchups against Sonic, MK, Pikachu, and Mario. Cloud is also definitely a bad MU for him, his spacing ability is too godlike for Kirby to get in

 

[bc1910]

How is Kirby +1 on any of the characters you mentioned?

He's probably even with Sheik based on KG vs Mr R. Can't see him doing better than -1 against any of the others. Why would he beat Cloud? Or Rosa?

There might be some results I'm not appreciating in which case feel free to correct me but this sounds like very optimistic theorycraft. An even MU with Sheik and a plethora of -1s does not a top 20 character make.

 

[Trifroze]

I don’t see why any Kirby would ever crouch at non-death percents when usmash exists.

I could see major reasons being that usmash charge doesn't low profile nearly as many attacks, plus it can be baited out and punished hard regardless of Kirby's % whereas crouching is pretty much as safe as any defensive option in the game.

Inhale acts as a solid anti-approach and the fact that it has a startup of 14 is quite generous given how useful the move is and, to be quite honest, how matchup-defining it can be even without factoring in copy abilities. Other than completely shield, the windbox attached to Inhale also outright beats a majority of the moves in the game. I did a test on Marth and found that even when Marth fsmashes on an Inhaling Kirby, the shifting of Marth’s hurtbox during the lunge is enough to succumb to the window even despite the sword disjoint.

A 14 frame move with ~60 frames of lag really isn't solid for just about anything, let alone if it only does 10% damage and sometimes copies a more or less useful neutral special. I use ZSS who gets 20-40% of damage and kills off of a move with almost equivalent frame data which beats out attacks from further away than inhale does, and I still hesitate to call it solid. Instead it's something you sometimes live and sometimes die by.

Utilt is safe on shield with a +3 frame advantage, which is pretty absurd given it's reward on hit.

I had to test after reading +3, and it was -7 if it hits as late as possible, -12 if it hits from behind Kirby. Even if you meant +3 against (regular) shieldgrabs, the numbers turn into -1 and -6. Not saying it isn't a good move, but I don't know where you got the number from.

I feel like Kirby has been criminally underrated for a long time now and that despite not having the best results, I can see him as being a solid top 20 pick.

When judging the effectiveness of characters and their moves, it's crucial to remember that your opponent is not an idiot.

If they are an idiot and we are supposed to be judging characters fairly, then both players should be considered idiots similarly. Unsafe smashes and specials are often more likely to hurt yourself than the opponent, while also in Kirby's case their average startup and Kirby's sub par speed don't make their viability as punishes any better.

Crouch for instance is a useful defensive option, but it is a defensive option and gets you nothing if you're losing and need to approach because the opponent sees no reason to rush into a Kirby who's being defensive while losing. In addition, relying on crouch or anything of that sort too much becomes predictable and being a sitting duck waiting for your opponent to throw out something that doesn't hit low enough is assuming that they have no idea what they're doing, and you'll only be asking for getting pressured by moves that do hit your crouch. Not saying people think crouch is a godlike tool, but it's still important to remember that it's only a defensive mixup and that's it. Kirby lacks range, zoning tools and mobility to keep characters out, so in addition to struggling with approaches he also struggles to keep characters out and is forced into defensive mixups, one of which is crouching. Thus, the opponent ultimately controls the pace of the match in any relevant matchup.

Many characters need to play more or less differently versus Kirby because some of their moves become less reliable due to Kirby's low profiling like crouch, dtilt or usmash, but losing effectiveness on certain moves doesn't mean that a character's efficiency at the matchup is lowered by an equal margin, because they may have other only slightly worse options to resort to in place of the moves that become less reliable. Additionally, those moves are never fully negated to begin with because of mixups; as explained earlier, if Kirby tries to avoid them by crouching forever, the opponent can just hit him with something else forever.

There are characters in this game who require you to completely change your gameplan when fighting against them, and if you don't, it'll look like a bad matchup. Then you learn the matchup because you're not an idiot who runs into smashes and tries to challenge crouching with moves that keep missing only to be punished for them the same way every single time, and the matchup turns out to be just fine if not easy in some cases. A good example of this was Nairo vs Kidgoggles at EGLX. Nairo lost first game trying to play normal, adapted, and bodied games 2, 3 and 4. Kirby does not beat ZSS, Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, Bayo and Cloud, but might prove to have at least a decent matchup with a couple of them.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I feel like Kirby has been criminally underrated for a long time now and that despite not having the best results, I can see him as being a solid top 20 pick. Run speed being at 1.57 is rather lackluster in comparison to the other characters but he more than makes up for it with his other options. Kirby’s crouch has been discussed in-depth but something that’s been overlooked is that he also crouches when charging up smash. This not only gives him the ability to duck under hitboxes but also gives him a retaliation in the form of one of the strongest smash attacks in the game (stronger than Fox's U-Smash, by the way). Not to mention it can end stocks early when fully charged, which is possible on slightly laggier whiffs. The meta has stagnated a bit now but in the future, I don’t see why any Kirby would ever crouch at non-death percents when usmash exists. Additionally, he has a fsmash with the hitbox first appearing on frame 13 that kills most characters at 120% center stagewith a 361 launch angle and has a large amount of range given the lunge Kirby does. For the amount of range the lunge provides, I honestly find it a bit absurd how its frame data and and KB values can be anywhere near what they are now. The character definitely is strong.

Inhale acts as a solid anti-approach and the fact that it has a startup of 14 is quite generous given how useful the move is and, to be quite honest, how matchup-defining it can be even without factoring in copy abilities. Other than completely shield, the windbox attached to Inhale also outright beats a majority of the moves in the game. I did a test on Marth and found that even when Marth fsmashes on an Inhaling Kirby, the shifting of Marth’s hurtbox during the lunge is enough to succumb to the window even despite the sword disjoint. Currently, I have him as positive on Rosa, Sheik, Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, and ZSS. His worst matchup is probably Luigi which is -1 at the very least.

Utilt is safe on shield with a +3 frame advantage, which is pretty absurd given it's reward on hit. Landing hit of Dair can frame sync to set up an even frame on shield which gives him the ability to pivot grab. Fthrow pops Kirby in the air right away and sets up a frame advantage allowing for a true combo into certain projectiles such as Charge Shot which is pretty dumb. Dair>Footstool, while appearing gimmicky, is legit, cannot be SDId (QC method does nothing), and is a disgustingly safe edgeguard option.

Really unpopular opinion given the current state of the meta but I can’t see Kirby as anything below top 20.

Kirby doesn't beat any of these. is even, is some sort of disadvantage (imo -1). I have no idea how you got to the conclusion that he could possibly beat lol.

Ironically, you missed the one top tier character who Kirby might actually beat:, although personally I think he's even. Many think it's Kirby's favor though. I've also heard many mains say Kirby beats them, although, once again, I think that matchup is even.

 

[meleebrawler]

That move really should only hit above her. Its a damn good up B for safe recovery with that speed and disjoint, doesn't need to be the ultimate scooping move in neutral.

I understand putting reasonable amounts of lag/startup on these moves would ruin their ability to combo, but if he hitboxes were more precise, she wouldn't feel so silly.

But that's exactly what Witch Twist does in the source material, whether it's the actual, slower move or the functionally similar Witch Strike. Their main uses are lifting enemies up for an air combo, not anti-airs.

And whenever an up b is designed to link all the way through or otherwise be stronger from the ground, you can bet it'll have significant lateral reach at the start. Sword up Bs are obvious like Climhazzard, Blazer, Dolphin Slash or Air Slash, but even fist-swingers have noticeable disjoints in front as they start these kinds of moves: , , , (custom 2).