Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ghostbone]

When everyone agrees Ryu is top 6, but no one agrees who's 4th and 5th, we get Ryu at 4th.

Most people don't think Ryu is top 6

 

[FallofBrawl]

When you run away from Ryu, he usually loses.

He has the tools to stop every approach in the game, but he sure can do very little when you're forcing the approach from him.

EDIT: Watch Hooded vs Gains at (I forgot the tourney name, but it was the one with Marss and Nairo in that ditto before G3)

 

[JesterJaded]

When you run away from Ryu, he usually loses.

He has the tools to stop every approach in the game, but he sure can do very little when you're forcing the approach from him.

EDIT: Watch Hooded vs Gains at (I forgot the tourney name, but it was the one with Marss and Nairo in that ditto before G3)

This is what baffles me with their decision to place Ryu at a higher tier than Meta Knight. Sure, both characters are cited to not have the best neutral, but Meta Knight has 10th running speed while Ryu has 28th. They both have safe pokes and fantastic frame data for footsies, and they both **** you up once they finally get in, but doesn't Meta Knight have an easier time doing that with better reward? Don't get me wrong, Ryu's damage racking capabilities and confirms into Shoryuken are fantastic, but it's hard to argue their case against the ladder confirm.

Or is there just something I'm not seeing here?

 

[bc1910]

Interesting list. I agree that overall, it's disappointing. Considering it's made by top players, who should be weighting potential/MUs and not purely results, there's a lack of vision within this list. We could quite easily make a results ranking and be done with it. It's also too far weighted toward US results though I can at least understand this considering most of the players are American and the US scene is generally considered the strongest. My major problems:

• Wii Fit is laughably low. I almost find her placement insulting as they've pretty much ignored Australia as a country. John#s proves her worth in the USA too.
• Ditto for Greninja and ignoring the Netherlands, with Some and Venia putting in strong showings in Japan and the USA respectively. Still, I was pleasantly surprised to see him ranked 25th as I expected even lower. I had a little chuckle when I saw him above Ike, as I imagined the outrage in the Ike Skype chat at their hidden high tier being as low as 26th.
• That said, in fairness, Ike is a little too low.
• I have no idea what Yoshi or Falcon are doing in their own tier, they are not significantly better than the D tiers. Most surprising of all is that neither of them, particularly Yoshi, even have the results to prove it.
• Luigi is dangerously close to top 15. For a character with so many bad MUs against characters below and above him I question his placement.
• I have the same general concern as everyone else about Ryu and Pikachu being too high although I can accept Ryu's placement as it at least shows a little vision. The character does have a lot of potential. Pikachu, though, in theory and in practice does not deserve to be 5th.

Complete speculation but I think ESAM threw his weight behind Pikachu and Yoshi and it inflated both their placements. ZeRo probably played Diddy down. Ryu players probably shouted down any non-believers? I really don't know how such a results-centric list can have him at 4th.

 

[Rizen]

Welcome back Shaya !

IMO the list looks pretty good but I'd have Link 1 tier higher. The reasoning is while he's not a national threat (getting 97th and 65th at genesis 3 iirc), he does have results regionally. Like Scizor in SoCal placing 35th out of 499
http://paragon.challonge.com/la_2015_smash4_singles
4th out of 113
http://challonge.com/SBACSingles
Zane the pure in Texas getting several placings like 17 out of 118.
http://tloc.challonge.com/SW61
Unknown getting 3rd out of 65 in VA
http://rvaforge.challonge.com/bcocugj5
We also have PRed Links.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link-social-the-triforce-of-doin-work.370194/page-357#post-20817415
to name just a few; sorry to skip people but I'd rather post a link than copy the whole tourney results thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/link-tournament-results-thread-25th-october.404196/

I have trouble seeing Link below characters like Mewtwo and Kirby.

 

[FSLink]

With Miis being 1111, Mii Brawler should definitely be dead last or at least the worst out of the Miis on the list. His gameplan doesn't even work with 1111, and he lacks KO options. Only real jarring placement to me, since he's definitely worse than Gunner and Swordfighter with 1111 rules.

Also a nitpick but I'm not a fan of using SABCDEFGHIJ instead of using A+ and such, as it implies a bigger gap between characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

Complete speculation but I think ESAM threw his weight behind Pikachu and Yoshi and it inflated both their placements. ZeRo probably played Diddy down. Ryu players probably shouted down any non-believers? I really don't know how such a results-centric list can have him at 4th.

I thought ZeRo didn't bother at all with this due to thinking it was too early for a tier list.

 

[UberMadman]

By the way guys, Nairo had a chance to play the new patch and he hasn't noticed any nerfs to the top characters yet, so BE PREPARED for the very real possibility that Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Cloud etc. are untouched. He also had some very interesting things to say about Corrin and Bayonetta.

 

[Shaya]

High/etc Tier Orders ARE NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH

Through the voting format's structure (as many chars as you want per division, you can see San's vote for an example), it would be wise to look at the data directly (applies to a lot) to address concerns. When we have an entire tier limited to just one division (17-18), that means they were consistently rated evenly with essentially the lowest gradient of averages seen anywhere in the list.
Ryu, Pikachu and Sonic are virtually interchangeable. Fox, Mario and Diddy are in a similar boat. Meta Knight coming off too low is fair especially with results in the past few weeks; but he's still looking to be seen as on par with the aforementioned 6.

Cloud didn't really deliver at Genesis in singles and this is when voting was closed. All of Japan rated him highly, I opted for being cautious although many would know a thing or two on how I feel about Cloud's obscene tuning (makes Snake, Ryu and Zero Suit look bad imo).

Bowser probably went up quite a bit in perception from the patch, but people were still being cautious with Mewtwo and Lucas who's momentum is only just starting.

"I CAN'T TELL IF IT IS RESULTS OR MATCH UP BASED TIER LIST!"

Results become more obvious basis for tiers in the long term. Match ups become more universally understood over time. Neither of these are even a fraction as extensive as Melee and Brawl (+64) with their many years of history. People naturally come closer to a consensus with these ideas through reinforcement and clarification. Until then, a single person's rhetoric may be a lot more influential on opinions than we'd hope.
This is where at least having a tier list is nice. When you can start to say to people who think X is a lot lower than they should be, "look at Y,Z,M,A,R,T,H; you think they're all as good? wow, look at these results" and it's pretty effective.

This is a huge cast. For many voters this was the first time they had created a tier list earnestly and we tried to keep the format as easy to tackle for our voters as possible. We didn't strong arm anyone over whether they thought that X is overrated due to how their match ups have personally gone at majors within the last 3 months.

---

Dark Pit and Pit were separate entities and they ended up one after the other.
Going back to the voting process, hyper majority of voters felt there was no reason to have them in different groupings; however some put Pit one division down (or DP 1 up) on occasion due to how they felt about the recent specific buffs DP received.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I feel as though is placed a bit low. Firstly, patches have been quite kind to him. There was the global change to shields that made attacks safer to use on them (patch 1.1.1), which affected electrical attacks the most in particular. Patch 1.1.3 gave Lucas important buffs to his Ftilt, Nair, Fair, and even reduced the ending lag on all of his grabs. Plus, I feel as though his PSI Magnet remains largely underutilized. Wavebouncing PSI Magnet offers a decent escape option if an opponent predicts your approach. Additionally, it can serve as a replacement Bair in certain situations. It hits at roughly the same speed, and while it loses out on damage/active hitbox frames/hitbox size, it has benefits of making you "slide" in the air and it hits the opponent at a low angle. The sliding is useful as it allows you to hit an opponent that is further away, in contrast to Bair. And the low angle is useful as it allows Lucas to better capitalize on his edgeguarding tools and spikes, such as PK Fire, PK Thunder, Dair, Fair, Bair, or even another PSI Magnet.

Then he has his other tools. Of course, you have Zair for zoning, as a tether recovery, and it can be used during an airdodge. Ftilt has a generous FAF of 26 that deals 11% sweetspotted and comes out decently fast (frame 7). A nice 2 frame jab. A workable frame 14 Fsmash. Overall the fastest ground tether grab in terms of the first active hitbox and FAF, despite lacking range comparatively. Great rewards on his throws. And a solid combination of air acceleration (7th-8th) and air speed (14th-19th).

Of course, he isn't without his flaws. He doesn't possess any super-fast aerials, for one. Nair and Uair come out on frame 7, and Fair on Frame 9. His walk speed is really bad (only Wario, Ryu, Ganondorf, and Jiggs are worse). Usmash requires a very hard read (frame 30). PK Freeze is niche/situational. PK Thunder is gimpable (unlike Ness he has tether though). His tether grab still has only half the speed in comparison to the fastest grabs (frame 6). He lacks a fast move that hits behind him besides Ftilt. Along with other issues.

However, I feel as though he has enough strengths and fewer weaknesses in comparison to the rest of F-Tier to warrant a higher placement on the tier list. I'm not sure by how much, but I know that he can compete with the likes of Mid Tier in terms of competitive viability. As opposed to his current placement in Low Tier.


Other than that, I don't have any major complaints with the tier list. Everyone else is in a predictable/reasonable enough position to make me feel satisfied with their placements as of right now. Good work.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's great to finally have some groundwork for a Smash 4 tier list. However, I have a couple of things I want to get off my chest.

Marth; I feel that this list doesn't do him justice at all. It's unfortunate because most Marth players play him too offensively, and that's not how he should be played. Played defensive, zoning, and punish, he is at least on par with Roy. I see that between him and Roy, aside from maybe Shulk, Marth can easily compete/defeat all the characters within this range, with characters like Falco and Bowser Jr getting juggled easily, and Lucas, G&W, and Kirby get far out ranged by him, with the latter two being killed extremely early from a tipper. Mewtwo is also an oddity where Marth can combo him easily thanks to his large frame, and also kill him early too. I know a tier list isn't completely built like this, but considering all of that, I would still think Marth would be closer to Roy.

I also think that Samus is too low. She has a much better combo game than all around her, and can even zero to death on stages with platforms. She also has plenty of shield breaking options (though not the first thing people think of when picking a character, it's still a bonus).

Finally, I see no reason for Rosalina to be in the S tier, at all. I main her, and I do feel that she is 3rd best, but not in the S tier. The S tier assumes that the character is the absolute best pick in almost all situations, and can handle almost any situation perfectly. Sheik and ZSS fit this description, but Rosalina loses a couple of matchups, and struggles against disjoints such as Marth and Cloud, so by my reckoning, that's not exactly the absolute best choice in every situation. I'm not disputing her 3rd place position, but she should be at the top of A, not in S.

That's about it. But I am excited to see how this changes within the coming months (especially when there is a balance patch change coming with Corrin/Bayonetta, or at least Marth changes have been spotted)!

 

[FlynnCL]

Although unexpected considering 1.1.4 is within reach, I do like this tier list a lot. Let's hope the patch doesn't nerf fighters down multiple tiers too.

Is there any reason why Pikachu deserves being that many places above Meta Knight? I feel like the few below Pikachu have already proven themselves to be a top tier threat while Pikachu (who's still a legitimate threat of course) is a bit of a buster for his 5th place. Definitely think Sonic deserves being above him at the least.

I also think in regards to his theorized and proven match-ups (which are overall quite solid), Ike is slightly too low. I thought he would sit perfectly well with the rest of D tier.

 

[Teshie U]

Interesting list. I agree that overall, it's disappointing. Considering it's made by top players, who should be weighting potential/MUs and not purely results, there's a lack of vision within this list. We could quite easily make a results ranking and be done with it. It's also too far weighted toward US results though I can at least understand this considering most of the players are American and the US scene is generally considered the strongest. My major problems:

• Wii Fit is laughably low. I almost find her placement insulting as they've pretty much ignored Australia as a country. John#s proves her worth in the USA too.
• Ditto for Greninja and ignoring the Netherlands, with Some and Venia putting in strong showings in Japan and the USA respectively. Still, I was pleasantly surprised to see him ranked 25th as I expected even lower. I had a little chuckle when I saw him above Ike, as I imagined the outrage in the Ike Skype chat at their hidden high tier being as low as 26th.
• That said, in fairness, Ike is a little too low.
• I have no idea what Yoshi or Falcon are doing in their own tier, they are not significantly better than the D tiers. Most surprising of all is that neither of them, particularly Yoshi, even have the results to prove it.
• Luigi is dangerously close to top 15. For a character with so many bad MUs against characters below and above him I question his placement.
• I have the same general concern as everyone else about Ryu and Pikachu being too high although I can accept Ryu's placement as it at least shows a little vision. The character does have a lot of potential. Pikachu, though, in theory and in practice does not deserve to be 5th.

Complete speculation but I think ESAM threw his weight behind Pikachu and Yoshi and it inflated both their placements. ZeRo probably played Diddy down. Ryu players probably shouted down any non-believers? I really don't know how such a results-centric list can have him at 4th.

Those other scenes aren't ignored, they just aren't that good.

 

[Frown]

I'd love to get a statement from the Backroom on this one:

Why even bother putting the Mii fighters in the tier list? I feel like they are just tossed in at the bottom because nobody has any idea what to do with them.

 

[bc1910]

I thought ZeRo didn't bother at all with this due to thinking it was too early for a tier list.

I could be wrong on tha. I just find it unlikely that he's had no influence on Diddy through various posts in the BR. Also to be honest I find it very unlikely that he didn't at least make his thoughts on this list known, even if not through an official vote. Pure speculation though.

I would bet I'm right about ESAM's influence though. Not to mention going by his last tier list he most likely ranked Pikachu 2nd and Yoshi inside top 10, inflating both characters himself.

The BR really should be transparent, just locked so that only members can post.

 

[Routa]

With Miis being 1111, Mii Brawler should definitely be dead last or at least the worst out of the Miis on the list. His gameplan doesn't even work with 1111, and he lacks KO options. Only real jarring placement to me, since he's definitely worse than Gunner and Swordfighter with 1111 rules.

^ this

1111 Guest Brawler is like Doc, but without the combo game, kill power, recovery, spacing game, punish options... I feel like only reason why he is placed so high is the HK. But then again we are talking about Guest 1111 so I dunno. There is no point placing him higher than Samus. I mean Samus has at least great punish game and very good combo game...

When it comes to Mii placing I have to say that at least @san. knows where to place them. I do agree with Frown when it comes to the Mii placing thing.

 

[Shaya]

I'd love to get a statement from the Backroom on this one:

Why even bother putting the Mii fighters in the tier list? I feel like they are just tossed in at the bottom because nobody has any idea what to do with them.

One theory would be that they're legal in some form and not outright banned.
It's not exactly any logical means to an end, but I'd hope that the growing 'freedom' of Miis (at least to their specials) picks up over time.. much like 3 stocks has [not trying to start a ruleset discussion though].

Like, we're forced to have miis restricted to 1111 in our voting due to it being the widespread standard. Not including them at all is probably just as iffie (if not more) than including them in this form.

I agree it's awkward.

 

[FSLink]

Agreed that it's better to include them since they are legal at tournaments. Fighting for non-default size and/or alternate specials can be done elsewhere on this forum.

But what's baffling is that anybody who's used 1111 Miis for more than a minute or two can see that 1111 Mii Brawler is lacking in a lot of areas compared to the other Miis. (unless there's some gameplan to 1111 Mii Brawler that I'm not aware of, and would be glad if someone who voted could share)

To me it just appears as a jarring placement and a result of misinformation.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There's no real reason why MK and Ryu shouldn't be S tier. It's kinda silly some of the characters they put ahead of MK. Also they should do less groups in the tier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle
C:
D:
E:

Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:

Graphic version:

Spoiler: Raw voting data

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.46 | 0.708 | 0.538
Rosalina | 18.77 | 0.87 | 0.687
Ryu | 17.95 | 1.103 | 0.82
Pikachu | 17.86 | 1.065 | 0.099
Sonic | 17.83 | 1.269 | 0.021
Fox | 17.52 | 1.146 | 0.313
Mario | 17.51 | 1.108 | 0.014
Diddy Kong | 17.43 | 0.998 | 0.082
Meta Knight | 17.12 | 1.489 | 0.307
Villager | 16.52 | 1.614 | 0.597
Cloud | 16.5 | 1.657 | 0.023
Ness | 16.39 | 1.502 | 0.11
Captain Falcon | 15.16 | 1.767 | 1.228
Yoshi | 15.15 | 1.893 | 0.013
Luigi | 14.27 | 1.996 | 0.881
Dark Pit | 13.89 | 2.138 | 0.381
Pit | 13.88 | 2.308 | 0.006
Peach | 13.75 | 2.115 | 0.133
R.O.B. | 13.63 | 2.221 | 0.12
Wario | 13.56 | 1.898 | 0.067
Toon Link | 13.2 | 2.416 | 0.357
Lucario | 12.92 | 2.224 | 0.285
Olimar | 12.47 | 2.452 | 0.454
Greninja | 12.25 | 2.633 | 0.215
Ike | 12.12 | 2.425 | 0.126
Donkey Kong | 11.8 | 2.252 | 0.325
Mega Man | 11.41 | 2.159 | 0.386
Pac-Man | 11.29 | 2.278 | 0.124
Bowser | 10.81 | 2.66 | 0.477
Robin | 10.17 | 2.722 | 0.642
Roy | 9.29 | 3.209 | 0.883
Kirby | 9.1 | 3.388 | 0.183
Bowser Jr. | 8.93 | 2.671 | 0.176
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.72 | 2.47 | 0.21
Lucas | 8.65 | 2.993 | 0.071
Mewtwo | 8.35 | 2.666 | 0.297
Falco | 8.12 | 3.026 | 0.232
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.08 | 2.674 | 0.037
Shulk | 7.75 | 2.926 | 0.325
Marth | 7.72 | 2.237 | 0.038
Link | 7.47 | 2.474 | 0.249
Duck Hunt Dog | 7.18 | 3.11 | 0.283
Little Mac | 7.18 | 2.633 | 0.009
Dr. Mario | 7.14 | 2.437 | 0.033
King Dedede | 6.04 | 2.721 | 1.107
Lucina | 5.59 | 2.547 | 0.447
Mii Brawler | 5.01 | 2.952 | 0.584
Charizard | 4.79 | 2.255 | 0.218
Palutena | 4.78 | 2.199 | 0.008
Samus | 4.12 | 1.942 | 0.656
Mii Gunner | 3.6 | 2.153 | 0.525
Mii Swordsman | 3.32 | 2.054 | 0.282
Ganondorf | 3.23 | 1.675 | 0.082
Jigglypuff | 2.79 | 2.035 | 0.448
Zelda | 1.96 | 1.259 | 0.828

Spoiler: Text version

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordsman, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

For the longest time we've been tied to "character competitive impressions" to supplement our lack of an official tier list during the early stages of Smash 4. Constant balance patches and character releases have kept us from taking those steps for a long time now but with the advent of the 4BR (WiiU Back Room) we've together tackled the long awaited elephant in the community. However, the community that has been built up around this lapse of structure has been exceptional and we've become of the most active and critical threads on Smashboards - it needn't be forgotten and you're all apart of what makes it great!

You can read the full article here.
A more fleshed out blurb and credits can be found there and that should be the primary external reference point.
I'll summarize the procedural format as "with up to 20 divisions, and characters in the same division being equal, segregate the cast as such as 20 is best and 1 is worst". We will likely be keeping up with this format and although not explicitly stated thus far, this is so we can transition into v2 (or 1.1.4 patch or later) version easier. There is a good chance we will be expanding the user base for participation in the future and that isn't restricted to just those in the 4BR, keep this in mind .

To differentiate from the article discussion, we will be expecting discussion here on this list to be above nonsensical rants or complaints, petty jabs and otherwise. THE ARTICLE IS THERE FOR YOU OTHERWISE.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you'd like here (probably should tag me at least, I'll hopefully get more members on board in being active in the discussion too!)

Samus, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight are too low.

Ryu, Pikachu, and Shulk are too high

 

[Das Koopa]

There's no real reason why MK and Ryu shouldn't be S tier. It's kinda silly some of the characters they put ahead of MK. Also they should do less groups in the tier.

There really is; ZSS and Sheik both have a significant number of tourny wins and have the plurality of tops. Rosa's in a limbo because her numbers mostly come from Dabuz in NA (HM to kirihara in JP), but they're all pretty outstanding (across the board 3rds and 2nds, very rarely dropping below the podium)

Ryu and MK have none of this right now. they're good and poised to remain high tiers but they're not on the klevel of Sheik/Zamus/Rosa.

 

[Bowserboy3]

There really is; ZSS and Sheik both have a significant number of tourny wins and have the plurality of tops. Rosa's in a limbo because her numbers mostly come from Dabuz in NA (HM to kirihara in JP), but they're all pretty outstanding (across the board 3rds and 2nds, very rarely dropping below the podium)

Ryu and MK have none of this right now. they're good and poised to remain high tiers but they're not on the klevel of Sheik/Zamus/Rosa.

I'd also argue that Rosalina should be placed in A tier, and only Sheik and ZSS should be the only ones in S. I think Rosalina's 3rd place is spot on, but when she loses a few matchups and struggles with disjoints, when compared to Sheik and ZSS who don't really struggle against anything, A tier seems more fitting (that is, still being 3rd place, but in A tier).

 

[Deleted member]

I still believe Jigglypuff is the worst character in the game rather than Zelda, but that's just me. Puff has barely done anything of note in the past year besides BrianYDG getting 17th at Smash Con, not to mention her awful matchup spread. Zelda at least had Ven, who was the only Zelda to make it past first round of pools at G3 and took Rain to game 3. Both are definitely bottom 3, but these are just my two cents. If I'm saying anything wrong or anybody disagrees, then I'm open to others' thoughts.

Also, are the Miis on this 1111? Because if so, I don't see how default Brawler is anything but bottom 5.

 

[Smog Frog]

are outliers considered when you make these? players sometimes have whack opinions(esam in a nutshell basically, even if he's a great player)

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Samus, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight are too low.

Ryu, Pikachu, and Shulk are too high

Shulk high? He's in the perfect spot. Low mid tier is where he belongs imo. Maybe 2 spaces down but they did a good job on shulk

 

[Das Koopa]

A more broad thing

1: Pikachu

I respect ESAM a lot, but I don't agree that Pikachu is top 5; I know the argument is there that an optimized Pikachu is a top threat, but ESAM himself has shown up a lot of middling results for a supposed Top 5 player. He's still good, and his placings aren't bad, but they're underperforming by a Top 5 player's standards, and one can't help but wonder if it's him or Pikachu's limitations as a character.

Meanwhile, people are jumping to Meta Knight a ton. I really think swapping Pikachu and MK is the most appropriate thing.

2: F tier bleeding into E tier

I think Bowser and Robin should be placed into F tier and Kirby & Roy should be at the top of G tier; F tier is almost a perfect "Borderline" section, as it includes several characters thought to have potential, but need more optimization and results going forward. This describes Bowser and Robin really well.

3: Doc below Mac

I disagree with this a lot; Both have similar weaknesses in recovery, but Dr. Mario has stellar frame data and a workable aerial game. IMO, he should be above Shulk or Link. Definitely not Bottom 10 (when you factor out Mii Fighters)

4: Yoshi's too high

Falcon and Yoshi both have unwarranted hype, but at least Fatality made an impressive loser's bracket run at G3. I don't think Yoshi has much backing his hype. Lots of nice tools but no results. Belongs mid-low D, imo.

5: Donkey Kong a bit low

DK has done far too well at this point in tournies for me to consider him the halfway-point character on the list. Definitely think he belongs above Olimar and Greninja right now, maybe even Lucario. Same with Ike. They have results, but Olimar/Greninja/Lucario really don't. DK should be at the bottom of D, I think.

6: R.O.B's placement

I don't see it. Even when you grind things down, Peach, Wario, Toon Link, DK, and Ike have a better track record. I think he's overhyped and I really like playing him, too. He, Yoshi, Olimar, Greninja, Megaman, and Pac-Man belong in Lower-Mid, imo. Just above borderline but not quite as good as a lot of proven characters.

7: Mii Fighters

I don't think they should be categorized due to inconsistent rulesets, otherwise they get low-tier placements due to having zero representation as a result of the aforementioned rulesets. Minor complaint, but worth noting.

8: WFT probably belongs a little bit higher in F

Top 32 at Genesis has had 2 place in Top 32 at EVO. Clearly a Borderline character, but she's had a better history than Falco, Mewtwo, or Roy.

Overall: Stellar groundwork, as Summer of Smash will answer probably every one of these complaints by validating them or defying them. Bottom and high tiers are accurate outside of a few iffy placements, there's almost a perfect Borderline area with F tier, good call on the bottom 3, etc.

 

[HoSmash4]

Those other scenes aren't ignored, they just aren't that good.

Yeah people need to stop being indie and quote zelda being top in Wyoming as evidence for her viability

 

[Luigi player]

After deleting my initial post about this and not knowing that there was a "back" option for this messagebox and trying something else which made it so I can't even use it anymore I'll just point out the few main things I had quickly:

- overall pretty decent, if not looking at the specific ordering during the letter-groups
- I feel like 2-3 characters are way too low (especially Duck Hunt)
- the top tier could easily be expanded with the top 10 characters (I'd have like ~10-15 in high and ~20 in mid, bottom isn't really needed since the characters are overall pretty decently balanced, so the differences aren't really that big), Metaknight, Diddy etc aren't really much behind the top 3, even if the top 3 characters are pretty clear.
- still glad it was finally done because it's just great to have "the" list to reference to and some guiding / starting point
- not sure if this was done but it doesn't seem so: it would've probably helped to reduce big differences in opinions by discussing character placements in the backroom, even though I know how hard it can be to convince anybody of anything

And something not about the tierlist, but the people in this thread: I'm really shocked how so many people are saying Captain Falcon isn't top 15... he's still super busted and probably the most annoying character to fight against for me. His dashspeed and dashgrab are just SO annoying, then he gets super great combos off of this, and you can't really do anything about it (besides staying on platforms where his uair is way too threatening), because it's just too fast. At least Sonic has to run at you closer and doesn't have such high rewards, while not having such devestating combos and super hard punish with his fsmash (even though Sonics fsmash is great too), while also having his dashattack as a great grab mixup that is really disjointed. Not to mention his amazing jab that's hard to get through and sets up really nicely because of hitting you away so far.
His recovery isn't the greatest and can be exploited, but you still have to guess correctly if he's gonna recover low or not (and even if you do you often have to get it right 2-3 times in a row before he can't recover anymore).

Edit: also as seemingly one of few: I completely agree with Ikes placement. It showcases his results and overall "good-ness" imo, even if Ryo had partially really amazing placements, there were also some that weren't and overall I feel like this character seems overrated a bit. On my personal tierlist he's place 24 as well (which is at the top of mid, with characters like Toon Link, Pacman and Lucario [though with the rise of great Toon Link results lately he might be too low on my list now])

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yoshi, Falcon, and Luigi imo could all go up a tier, at least Luigi up with Yoshi and Falcon in C.

Poor Miis I agree with their placements right now, it's just sad that they come from arbitrary bans on their other moves.

There's a patch tomorrow right? With new characters? This is going to be obsolete really fast, but it needed to happen at some point too. Good job BR

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm rather surprised that ROB is at the lower half of D-Tier when it consistently shows a lot more results than Pit (even though you could argue that EightBitMan is the sole person elevating it, the same goes for a lot of characters on the upper end of the list). Feels like the two Pits ought to have their placements switched with ROB and as a result have Peach move up one spot as well since the two of those feel much closer to the borderline based on results and the current meta.

Tier-wise though I feel like everyone, with one or two exceptions, are exactly where they should be, with it just being a matter of placement refining going onward.

 

[HoSmash4]

After deleting my initial post about this and not knowing that there was a "back" option for this messagebox and trying something else which made it so I can't even use it anymore I'll just point out the few main things I had quickly:

- overall pretty decent, if not looking at the specific ordering during the letter-groups
- I feel like 2-3 characters are way too low (especially Duck Hunt)
- the top tier could easily be expanded with the top 10 characters (I'd have like ~10-15 in high and ~20 in mid, bottom isn't really needed since the characters are overall pretty decently balanced, so the differences aren't really that big), Metaknight, Diddy etc aren't really much behind the top 3, even if the top 3 characters are pretty clear.
- still glad it was finally done because it's just great to have "the" list to reference to and some guiding / starting point
- not sure if this was done but it doesn't seem so: it would've probably helped to reduce big differences in opinions by discussing character placements in the backroom, even though I know how hard it can be to convince anybody of anything

And something not about the tierlist, but the people in this thread: I'm really shocked how so many people are saying Captain Falcon isn't top 15... he's still super busted and probably the most annoying character to fight against for me. His dashspeed and dashgrab are just SO annoying, then he gets super great combos off of this, and you can't really do anything about it (besides staying on platforms where his uair is way too threatening), because it's just too fast. At least Sonic has to run at you closer and doesn't have such high rewards, while not having such devestating combos and super hard punish with his fsmash (even though Sonics fsmash is great too), while also having his dashattack as a great grab mixup that is really disjointed. Not to mention his amazing jab that's hard to get through and sets up really nicely because of hitting you away so far.
His recovery isn't the greatest and can be exploited, but you still have to guess correctly if he's gonna recover low or not (and even if you do you often have to get it right 2-3 times in a row before he can't recover anymore).

Edit: also as seemingly one of few: I completely agree with Ikes placement. It showcases his results and overall "good-ness" imo, even if Ryo had partially really amazing placements, there were also some that weren't and overall I feel like this character seems overrated a bit. On my personal tierlist he's place 24 as well (which is at the top of mid, with characters like Toon Link, Pacman and Lucario [though with the rise of great Toon Link results lately he might be too low on my list now])

People probably think he isnt 'that good' because everyone knows the falcon matchup by the book because of how popular he is and considering he isnt a super good character like sheik or zss, his weaknesses have been more exploited than others but he is top 15 I think. His mobility and damage output is crazy.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm rather surprised that ROB is at the lower half of D-Tier when it consistently shows a lot more results than Pit (even though you could argue that EightBitMan is the sole person elevating it, the same goes for a lot of characters on the upper end of the list). Feels like the two Pits ought to have their placements switched with ROB and as a result have Peach move up one spot as well since the two of those feel much closer to the borderline based on results and the current meta.

Tier-wise though I feel like everyone, with one or two exceptions, are exactly where they should be, with it just being a matter of placement refining going onward.

Earth elevates Pit significantly; Placed 13th at Genesis and does really well in Japan, which is clearly a good region. Definitely higher than R.O.B imo.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda is higher than I expected.

Nice list. I think WFT's a bit low, but that's about it.

 

[Amadeus9]

The differences of opinions in this thread indicate about how much stock you should put in this list. i.e.: very little

 

[David Viran]

By the way guys, Nairo had a chance to play the new patch and he hasn't noticed any nerfs to the top characters yet, so BE PREPARED for the very real possibility that Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Cloud etc. are untouched. He also had some very interesting things to say about Corrin and Bayonetta.

What did he say or where did he say it?

 

[Das Koopa]

The differences of opinions in this thread indicate about how much stock you should put in this list. i.e.: very little

Most people seem to agree that in spite of the flaws, it's over just a few placements, and that it's a good groundwork moving forward. That seems to be the purpose anyway.

 

[Amadeus9]

Most people seem to agree that in spite of the flaws, it's over just a few placements, and that it's a good groundwork moving forward. That seems to be the purpose anyway.

"Most people" seems to not include most people I have seen talking about this.

What did he say or where did he say it?

He said Bayo > Corrin, thats about it afaik

 

[Brinzy]

The differences of opinions in this thread indicate about how much stock you should put in this list. i.e.: very little

The Melee tier list thread had just as many differences of opinion... they couldn't even all agree that Fox is the best character in the game.

For a game this young, I'd say they did a great job.

 

[Eugene Wang]

No one seems to give the mii fighters a chance. (t_t) But seriously. The placement of the Mii brawler over his Mii brethren seems to indicate that we still haven't actually tried out the mii fighters since that time we were serious about customs in tournaments. And theory would suggest that the Mii fighters aren't that low. Maybe they're low tier, but they're certainly not Jigglypuff/Zelda tier low.

 

[Spinosaurus]

By the way guys, Nairo had a chance to play the new patch and he hasn't noticed any nerfs to the top characters yet, so BE PREPARED for the very real possibility that Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight, Cloud etc. are untouched. He also had some very interesting things to say about Corrin and Bayonetta.

You can't post this without telling us what he actually said :V