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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Man Li Gi

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"
Rosaluma has a frame 8 jab IIRC and she's considered what, top 5?

A decent CQC option doesn't necessarily have to be jab, and jab isn't the only move that determines a character's disadvantage state. Bat Within or any other of Bayonetta's specials could potentially double as a pressure escaping tool."
Rosa jab is frame 8 while Luma frame 4. There has yet to be a counter in this game to be the best way to escape disadvantage. If your best option to escape pressure is a counter, lord have mercy. Why having a fast jab is important is due to how it usually is your fast ground option to rely on. For some it even combos into stronger attacks. So usually a good CQC option relies on jab.
 

williamsga555

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Good work on getting this going, all. Shame it just happens to wrap up so close to the patch, but oh well.

Think Dedede is juuuust barely too low. Would have him in either G or F myself, but dissecting the lowest categories of characters isn't terribly relevant at that point, so Iunno.

Only notable gripes I have, that go beyond minor nit-picky orderings, are with Samus and Ike. Think Ike would belong with Falcon and Yoshi (or pretty close to that), and I'm not fully sure where I'd put Samus. I feel very confident that she doesn't belong in the worst of the worst category, but I'll admit that a lot of that is theorycrafting on my part (and a bit of experience against her in my region).

Looking forward to another huge slew of chatting with you folks here. Keep up the good work, all.
 

Mr. Johan

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I s2g if I hear someone say MK has a bad/average neutral one more time.

You do not get to see a shield-crossing, unpunishable Dash Attack, a neutral B to beat the spotdodge and eat shields alive, the best forward roll in the game, and the fastest of dash grabs, and get to call that neutral game "average" at best. Not when the punish game that leads up from it is insane.

The presence of the punish game itself is his neutral game. And he's damn good at it.
 
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JesterJaded

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He's no high tier, but he has very strong tools for his archetype and just about every attack fulfills some niche in his design. The only "useless" attack is DSmash.
Doesn't he also lose horrendously to the characters that matter, though? :4sheik: runs circles around him in the neutral, as do :4sonic:, :4fox:, and :4pikachu:. :4ryu: , :4metaknight: and :4zss: absolutely wreck him off of a single confirm (moreso than the other half of the cast they wreck from a single confirm). Characters that have a decent projectile or keep-out game (:4tlink::4villager::4megaman:) can also keep him sitting in shield crippled by his frame 8 jumpsquatt, especially :4tlink: who gets easy kill confirms and setups from his projectiles because :4bowser: doesn't have the mobility to properly pressure :4tlink: .

I haven't seen the :rosalina: / :4bowser: matchup, but from what I know of both characters, I'm kind of afraid to actually search it and witness 1st degree murder.
 
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Ray_Kalm

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First time I put one out, but here's my take.


SS::4sheik:

S::4zss::rosalina: :4diddy:

A: :4ryu::4sonic::4cloud::4pikachu::4mario::4villager::4metaknight:

B: :4ness: :4fox: :4yoshi:

C: :4luigi: :4rob::4dk::4greninja: :4lucario: (:4darkpit::4pit:):4falcon::4peach::4tlink:

D: :4bowser: :4wario: :4myfriends::4robinm::4pacman::4lucas:

E: :4duckhunt: :4miisword::4bowserjr::4wiifit::4shulk::4kirby::4gaw::4falco: :4megaman::4drmario: :4olimar:

F: :4link: :4marth: :4littlemac: :4mewtwo: :4miibrawl: :4dedede: :4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4palutena::4feroy: :4miigun:

G: :4charizard: :4zelda: :4lucina: :4samus:
 
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arbustopachon

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First of all, congrats on getting this done! i bet it took a lot of time!

second, I find zard's placement a bit odd.

I get that he has no results and barely any representation, but his theory is better than d3 and 1111 brawler, at least imo.
His tools are solid, his neutral is pasable, while he kills later than the other heavies he doesn't really struggle to get the kills and his disadvantage... its awful but he can at least hope to mix people thanks to his multiple mediocre landing options.

Don't get me wrong, i know zard is not secretly mid tier or something. But i do think that he should at least be at the top of bottom tier.

Other than that i find samus' and dorf's placements a bit odd, but don't quote me on those.
 

DanGR

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Pikachu's rank makes 0 sense to me, given that this is a (presumably) results-based list. Even if you don't think ESAM's results show an outlier, several characters below Pikachu have more, better results in several more regions.

Just, why?
 
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Nobie

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In terms of my mains (Mewtwo, Mega Man), I would have more or less agreed with their placements about two months ago.

I considered Mega Man to be a better character than Mewtwo, and Mega Man most likely a solid mid tier (which is well within range of where he is on the official tier list). However, the buffs to Mewtwo were so huge that I actually think Mewtwo's the superior character now. I think we're even seeing this already within the tier list itself just because the deviation from the mean is so incredibly high.

Mega Man was and still is a specialist who has his bad matchups and relies on a handful of good moves, strong weight, and good maneuverability to try and get him through his tougher matches.

Mewtwo just has a diverse array of possibilities that have now been attached to good hitboxes and a fearsome neutral game that can lead into deaths. To put it another way, I'd rather fight Sheik with Mewtwo than with Mega Man.

@!Blue! recently won a Pennsylvania local, and was asked in his interview why he switched from Sonic to Mewtwo. His answer was that Sonic's kill moves aren't strong enough anymore to force the opponent to play differently at high percents. The game plan that works against Sonic at 0% is still the same one more or less that works at 120%. If you're at 120% against Mewtwo though, you have to worry about all sorts of things killing you (up air, Shadow Ball, all smashes, fair, in some cases back air, up throw, etc.).
 

Big-Cat

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Doesn't he also lose horrendously to the characters that matter, though? :4sheik: runs circles around him in the neutral, as do :4sonic:, :4fox:, and :4pikachu:. :4ryu: , :4metaknight: and :4zss: absolutely wreck him off of a single confirm (moreso than the other half of the cast they wreck from a single confirm). Characters that have a decent projectile or keep-out game (:4tlink::4villager::4megaman:) can also keep him sitting in shield crippled by his frame 8 jumpsquatt, especially :4tlink: who gets easy kill confirms and setups from his projectiles because :4bowser: doesn't have the mobility to properly pressure :4tlink: .

I haven't seen the :rosalina: / :4bowser: matchup, but from what I know of both characters, I'm kind of afraid to actually search it and witness 1st degree murder.
I honestly think that stuff is exaggerated. :4zss: is hell spawn though.

That eight frame jumpsquat doesn't mean jack as you don't want to be in the air with Bowser often anyway.
 
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DblCrest

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Ray_Kalm Ray_Kalm
Got to explain your placings to entice more discussion regarding the characters or else you'll get jumped on. Hope you've done your homework or brought your notes Ray. :V
 

TTTTTsd

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I'm reasonably satisfied with Bowser's placing, but what I don't like is that the tiers are separated from S to J tier. From a superfical point of view, it paints a REALLY negative light for anyone below C tier which is the standard FGC low/bottom tier. We don't even need the letters spread out like this as the balance is much more condensed than in, say, Brawl.
Seconding this post. Saying "it shouldn't be looked into" doesn't make it not a thing. Nobody reads footnotes on these (which is a shame but that's how it is) and frankly S-J is absolutely crazy, particularly when it is being used to represent minor data splits.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of the placings but rather the format in which it is organized seems highly exaggerated in terms of character strength variance. Wario in a tier labelled D alone should be alarming to some especially with no background, which is what tier lists set out to try and not do.

This is all I have to say officially about the list and most likely all I have to say in this thread as well. It's the only piece of feedback I really have for the tier list.

The reason why most Fighting Games don't have S-F or even S-J (S2J. Ha) is because we tend to use tiers that use + and - because it separates minor differences and adds clarity. Usually really helpful (Some games like ST use a Ratio-based tier list but that game is run very differently in JP tournaments).
 
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Mr. Johan

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Characters that have a decent projectile or keep-out game (:4tlink::4villager::4megaman:) can also keep him sitting in shield crippled by his frame 8 jumpsquatt, especially :4tlink: who gets easy kill confirms and setups from his projectiles because :4bowser: doesn't have the mobility to properly pressure :4tlink:
Personal contention: Bowser beats Toon Link.

The existence of the Uthrow followups matters so much in this MU now. Bowser runs faster than Toon Link, and such can make his way through the projectiles in a regular fashion by frequent powershielding. The projectiles are one hit wonders, so Bowser only needs to keep a rhythmic powershielding going and continue to pressure. Bomb and Rang pulls take commitment, commitment that Bowser can use to swoop in and grab or dash grab and get Uthrows going, or simply jump in and Fair Tink out of; even if the Tink can get that projectile out, that Fair will be a very worthy trade.

Tink can get the damage up no problem, but when it comes to getting the KO confirm, the game becomes a very tense version of chicken, and one that Tink just can't afford to lose. Tink's projectiles lead into moves that hit primarily to the sides, so Tink can't really force vertical juggling opportunities until Bowser dies unless the Bowser is just really stupid. He's got a tether grab, so if he misses, he's getting grabbed, so that's out. Tink has to land at some point from item tossing, so if Bowser managed to powershield or dodge through that one time, that landing just got a hell of a lot more harder now with the presence of Bowser's pivot grab. And if he didn't get through the projectile and got followup'd on, again, Tink's hitting from the sides, and Bowser is quite the persistent bugger in staying alive horizontally. Max rage Bowser Uair kills Tink as early as 70% or so, and you can bet Bowser will be regularly hitting those percentages.

One misstep at low percents and Bowser equalized the damage racking Tink just did. One misstep at high percentages, and Tink is dead. A Tink that played superbly for 150% and then made one misstep just died even earlier. A properly defensive+aggressive Bowser just runs over Toon Link imo.
 
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Deathcarter

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Top tier is pretty dead on and all the characters I would say have qualified to be considered high and mid are in their right tier and are at worst off by one letter grade so I'd say this tier list is a success for the first try. No real big WTF moments outside of the low tier which, let's be honest, nobody here actually expected the BR to get that right on the first go around.
 
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Plain Yogurt

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Shulk not being bottom is all I could have ever asked for.

Lucas on the other hand...I don't know man it feels weird to think of him as a low tier character. Like why is he so weak? Having a tether gating his kill options (seriously if you don't get grabbed by Lucas you're probably living till the 150%+ range easy)? Lack of mobility? No one really playing him besides Pink Fresh? Just seems off to me.

Also not really big on the whole "these two mid/low tier characters deserve their own tier." Like are Falcon/Yoshi really THAT much better? What does putting Dedede/Lucina above that almost as small row of Brawler/Zard/Pally even mean? Seems arbitrary to me.
 

Djent

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Yeah, this could have been a lot worse, but for something put out by great players (some of whom are also brilliant people), this list is a disappointment. I already mentioned a few of my biggest gripes here. There are fortunately a few levels with which I can (mostly) agree, but a lot of stuff is just flat-out questionable. I'm kind of hoping the new patch makes changes to a lot of good characters just so that people know not to take this list too seriously.

More stuff:
  • How can anyone think Duck Hunt is worse than 2/3 of the cast when he has better results than like 1/2? People are putting Falco a tier higher, and his dedicated mains haven't acheived half of what Brood and Yu-san have done recently.
  • Falcon and Yoshi are not noticeably better than most of the characters in D. In fact, I think most of the characters in D are better than them. Lots of dedicated mains and precious few good results from both.
  • Cloud is easily top 10. Hell, switch him with Pikachu and this list instantly becomes a little more bearable. Seriously folks, the writing is on the wall now.
  • Ryu is obviously good, and I feel a little bad because I initially hyped this guy up, but the results just don't quite justify 4th place. This is honestly a smaller offence than the others, but there are other (somewhat) more deserving characters.
 
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ARGHETH

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Also not really big on the whole "these two mid/low tier characters deserve their own tier." Like are Falcon/Yoshi really THAT much better? What does putting Dedede/Lucina above that almost as small row of Brawler/Zard/Pally even mean? Seems arbitrary to me.
Falcon and Yoshi got their own tier because there was a large gap in between them and the characters above and below them.
There was a similarly big gap between Dr. Mario and Dedede, but the gap after Lucina was relatively small...
 

jespoke

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Pikachu's rank makes 0 sense to me, given that this is a (presumably) results-based list. Even if you don't think ESAM's results show an outlier, several characters below Pikachu have more, better results in several more regions.

Just, why?
It really is more of a power perception list than anything. Results mean a lot, but legacy and perceived potential do as well, to the benefit of Pikachu, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario and more
 
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Mazdamaxsti

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Speaking for Kirby, this tier list pretty accurately places him. He's in the "ehhhh, not quite" tier, which is honestly where he should be.
 

Radical Larry

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Now that we have the Wii U tier list, can we now focus on the 3DS tier list due to the actual different meta that will apply there?

But that aside, I'm hoping people will place Ganondorf somewhere higher in the future, because he's not ALL that bad. (And here's to hoping the stars will align and Ganondorf gets the improvement of a lifetime.)
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I'm curious whether people would be more satisfied if we kept all the character placements but condensed it down to a maximum of 5 tiers on a non-numerical basis. What if they put brackets at every point indicating that numerical difference? It would be the charlie's angels of S, all the other guys we generally take seriously at A, the veritable ocean of "also viable but why would you" mid-tiers at B, and the ten or so we can't see taking a national holding the bottom. It would look goofy, but that's Smash 4 with its comically large roster of "yeah, maybe" options.
 

BTVolta

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Wii Fit Trainers spot confuses me as too whether this list is taking into account results more or potential. John numbers and False being voters furthers this a bit.

On the results side WFT seems to perform well for what she's perceived to be. 2 in top 32 at evo, 4th at Nebulous Prime, and recently top 32 at genesis. Evo had customs so it can be argued how much it matters, but I personally don't think customs alone can bring a character that's truly bad that far as no DKs even made top 32.

On the other hand I think many can see the potential of WFT, especially when we see things like John Numbers beating Vinnie and false, Rin beating False(maybe even double eliminating?Citation?) and Teb. The depth of header cancel angles, ledge stall, and options out of bury is astounding. I find it hard to believe people put characters like Roy and Lucas, who are almost nonexistent in the meta, above her when she could almost be considered a national threat with how many appearances she makes.

TL;DR I think there's ignorance in the official list for some characters placings(WFT in particular) and general ambiguity in how things were weighted.
 

LancerStaff

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Hey Shaya Shaya I was wondering how exactly Pit and Dark Pit were ranked here. Ranked together with Dark Pit being better or alphabetical, or were they separate and just ended up next to each other?

Realistically I could see a separate "together" ranking like what Zelda and Sheik had in Brawl, but I don't know how serious that was.
 

Ulevo

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I s2g if I hear someone say MK has a bad/average neutral one more time.

You do not get to see a shield-crossing, unpunishable Dash Attack, a neutral B to beat the spotdodge and eat shields alive, the best forward roll in the game, and the fastest of dash grabs, and get to call that neutral game "average" at best. Not when the punish game that leads up from it is insane.

The presence of the punish game itself is his neutral game. And he's damn good at it.
His dash attack is punishable by characters with good out of shield options, even on cross up, and there are better dash grabs.

Also, the Smash 4 Back Room logo looks really ugly.
 
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Whelt

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I actually have one question - Why is classic Wario used in the graphic, despite biker being his default costume? Default skins were used for every other character.
 

ARISTOS

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List is interesting, but IMO Djent Djent tier list is still the golden standard.

:4pikachu: has been dealt with to death, but this character isn't even close to being where he should.

:4metaknight: should either be in top tier or near the top of high. Results don't lie, the writing is on the wall.

:4diddy: nerf lead to sticky opinions, he is still much better than where he is now (wtf worse than Mario?)

:4cloud: is silly and has better results than most of the cast in just a month.

IMO, :4falcon::4yoshi: should just meld into D. In fact, :4pit::4darkpit::4wario: are probably better than those two.


Also /u/heyisjambo whipped up a visualization showing the st. dev for each character. I like statistics so this might be interesting to see how various characters were disagreed on.

 
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Big-Cat

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I'm curious whether people would be more satisfied if we kept all the character placements but condensed it down to a maximum of 5 tiers on a non-numerical basis. What if they put brackets at every point indicating that numerical difference? It would be the charlie's angels of S, all the other guys we generally take seriously at A, the veritable ocean of "also viable but why would you" mid-tiers at B, and the ten or so we can't see taking a national holding the bottom. It would look goofy, but that's Smash 4 with its comically large roster of "yeah, maybe" options.
I think a more practical one would be to just simply take the FGC standard of S to C-. Here's my take on the list as an example.
No particular order in each row. Miis and Palutena are assumed 1111.
S: :4sheik::4zss::rosalina:

A+::4ryu::4pikachu::4sonic::4mario::4diddy::4fox::4cloud::4villager::4metaknight:
A::4ness::4falcon: :4yoshi::4luigi::4darkpit::4pit:
A-: :4peach::4rob::4wario2::4robinf:

B+::4tlink::4lucario::4myfriends: :4dk::4pacman::4megaman:, :4bowser::4olimar:
B: :4greninja::4kirby::4lucas: :4mewtwo::4falco::4gaw::4marth:
B-: :4miigun::4feroy::4link::4samus::4shulk:

C+: :4bowserjr::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4dedede::4lucina::4miibrawl:
C: :4littlemac::4charizard::4palutena::4ganondorf:
C-: :4miisword::4jigglypuff::4zelda:
 
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JesterJaded

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Personal contention: Bowser beats Toon Link.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pDafKGkyd1w


Yeah no I'm really not seeing it. (Granted this isn't 1.1.3, but I believe this accurately showcases Bowser's woes in the neutral. I'd post more videos but I'm pressed for time.)


The existence of the Uthrow followups matters so much in this MU now.

How? I know Bowser's new grab follow-ups heavily increase his damage-racking capabilities, but this comes with the cost of having an incredibly linear gameplan on account of having piss-poor out-of-shield options. Also, Browser's dash > grab is still frame 14, making it rather telegraphed; it's susceptible to down-thrown bomb > Bair cross-ups.

Edit: apologies, I must be blind - the dashgrab is 10.

Bowser runs faster than Toon Link,

By 0.06.


and such can make his way through the projectiles in a regular fashion by frequent powershielding. The projectiles are one hit wonders, so Bowser only needs to keep a rhythmic powershielding going and continue to pressure.
I feel like we're discussing Link and not Toon Link here, because Toon Link plays keep-away and Link plays a more grounded come-at-me game; it's important to distinguish the two. Toon Link players are skilled at using projectile traps like the return on the boomerang and up-thrown bombs to keep their opponents in shield while they cross-up. Powershielding across the stage, while practical, isn't a free win, and I feel as if you're overstating it a tad.

It also sounds like you think Tink has no CQC against Bowser when his frame 6 jab beats out just about everything Bowser has. Dashgrab also has a FAF of 48, meaning spot dodge > Utilt can land heavy damage on Bowser and put him into disadvantage with Uair as the finisher.

Bomb and Rang pulls take commitment, commitment that Bowser can use to swoop in and grab or dash grab and get Uthrows going,
For this to actually work, Bowser would need to be right up in front of Tink when he pulls the bomb or boomerang. No smart Tink is going to do that at close range.


or simply jump in and Fair Tink out of; even if the Tink can get that projectile out, that Fair will be a very worthy trade.
See the above. Most Tinks use retreating jump > bomb pull, and they shouldn't do that at close range. It's smarter to read the incoming grab and pivot boomerang.


Tink can get the damage up no problem, but when it comes to getting the KO confirm, the game becomes a very tense version of chicken, and one that Tink just can't afford to lose. Tink's projectiles lead into moves that hit primarily to the sides, so Tink can't really force vertical juggling opportunities until Bowser dies unless the Bowser is just really stupid.
Bomb > Uair. This will also put Bowser in his favorite position on stage: airborn, where he's susceptible to getting pelted by Tink's projectiles and Uair airdodge frame traps.

Speaking of disadvantage, Tink's projectiles also eat Bowser alive offstage.

He's got a tether grab, so if he misses, he's getting grabbed, so that's out.
Conditioning. Bowser will be repeatedly conditioned to shield because it's the only way he can approach through the wall of projectiles. This is also a good option before Bthrow kill percent because U-throw puts Bowser in disadvantage.

Tink has to land at some point from item tossing, so if Bowser managed to powershield or dodge through that one time, that landing just got a hell of a lot more harder now with the presence of Bowser's pivot grab. And if he didn't get through the projectile and got followup'd on, again, Tink's hitting from the sides, and Bowser is quite the persistent bugger in staying alive horizontally. Max rage Bowser Uair kills Tink as early as 70% or so, and you can bet Bowser will be regularly hitting those percentages.
Platforms don't seem to exist in your hypothetical scenarios. If this were on FD, sure, this may be a problem, but even Smashville supplies Tink with ways to escape Browser's linear approach options (and a means to punish his approach if he tries to chase with downthrown bomb).

I don't see how Bowser gets 70% so easily in this matchup. The bottom line is, he suffers in the neutral, his options are limited to power shielding making him susceptible to grabs, and Tink arguably has comparable reward with his grab considering how bad Browser's disadvantage is. He also destroys Bowser in both disadvantage and edgeguarding.
 
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Big-Cat

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Just watching that first match of the set, that Bowser was doing several things wrong. Namely approach with a FAir, running in, and still being too hesitant to actually do anything. If it were me, I'd use more burst movement and walking to grab the bombs. Bowser does not approach. He corners.
 

JesterJaded

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Just watching that first match of the set, that Bowser was doing several things wrong. Namely approach with a FAir, running in, and still being too hesitant to actually do anything. If it were me, I'd use more burst movement and walking to grab the bombs. Bowser does not approach. He corners.
That's fair enough, but there were mistakes on both sides; Zan opted to reset to neutral plenty of times rather than press advantage.

I'll try to find better videos later on, or if anyone has any to share, please do.
 
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Big-Cat

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What's a serious issue for Bowser players is tunnel vision. That's what happened with that Bowser. Tried going for the grab when he should've done more OOS with UpB and jump in Fire Breath.
 

Ffamran

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What's a serious issue for Bowser players is tunnel vision. That's what happened with that Bowser. Tried going for the grab when he should've done more OOS with UpB and jump in Fire Breath.
More like this is a serious issue for almost all players... people really are that obsessed with grab combos and "easy" setups. Remember Link's "infinite"? People went for that like it was Hylia's gift to all that was good and holy... and they ignored basic **** like Link's Bair for spacing and Bomb usage.
 

C0rvus

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Personal contention: Bowser beats Toon Link.

The existence of the Uthrow followups matters so much in this MU now. Bowser runs faster than Toon Link, and such can make his way through the projectiles in a regular fashion by frequent powershielding. The projectiles are one hit wonders, so Bowser only needs to keep a rhythmic powershielding going and continue to pressure. Bomb and Rang pulls take commitment, commitment that Bowser can use to swoop in and grab or dash grab and get Uthrows going, or simply jump in and Fair Tink out of; even if the Tink can get that projectile out, that Fair will be a very worthy trade.

Tink can get the damage up no problem, but when it comes to getting the KO confirm, the game becomes a very tense version of chicken, and one that Tink just can't afford to lose. Tink's projectiles lead into moves that hit primarily to the sides, so Tink can't really force vertical juggling opportunities until Bowser dies unless the Bowser is just really stupid. He's got a tether grab, so if he misses, he's getting grabbed, so that's out. Tink has to land at some point from item tossing, so if Bowser managed to powershield or dodge through that one time, that landing just got a hell of a lot more harder now with the presence of Bowser's pivot grab. And if he didn't get through the projectile and got followup'd on, again, Tink's hitting from the sides, and Bowser is quite the persistent bugger in staying alive horizontally. Max rage Bowser Uair kills Tink as early as 70% or so, and you can bet Bowser will be regularly hitting those percentages.

One misstep at low percents and Bowser equalized the damage racking Tink just did. One misstep at high percentages, and Tink is dead. A Tink that played superbly for 150% and then made one misstep just died even earlier. A properly defensive+aggressive Bowser just runs over Toon Link imo.
Having played the MU as both characters, I want to say it's even overall. On paper, Toon Link's neutral far outclasses Bowser's, and Bowser should in theory be kept out, but Bowser's reward and ability to not die makes it go his way in practice nine times out of ten. You know what, that likely matters more; I'll give it to Bowser, albeit only slightly. Saying "don't f*** up" is easy, but it isn't slightly realistic.

New thread hype! Cool list, kind of a shame it's about to be rendered obsolete. Switch Pika and Meta Knight and we're cool, barring the impossible to gauge group of characters below high tier. Meta Knight is unshakably top 5 in my opinion. Results back it up, too, unlike Pikachu.
 
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Big-Cat

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More like this is a serious issue for almost all players... people really are that obsessed with grab combos and "easy" setups. Remember Link's "infinite"? People went for that like it was Hylia's gift to all that was good and holy... and they ignored basic **** like Link's Bair for spacing and Bomb usage.
Oh I'm aware, but Showtime brought that tunnel vision susceptibility to Bowser players. But yeah, people are too focused on safe stuff and not on riskier things.
 

RonNewcomb

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Actually I think it's a mercy it's about to be rendered obsolete. Djent Djent wins.

What results does Robin have? She's my biggest surprise.
 

Ffamran

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Oh I'm aware, but Showtime brought that tunnel vision susceptibility to Bowser players. But yeah, people are too focused on safe stuff and not on riskier things.
The problem I see is not doing safe and/or guaranteed things, but the obsession with "unreliable" setups. Fox using Bair in neutral is fine because he's baiting you and Fox going for Nair to Up Smash is also fine since it's a reliable setup. Now, Fox strictly going for jab repeats pre-1.1.0 is not fine when you ignore almost everything else he had. People do realize how scary Diddy and Luigi would be with the current developments and their old, over-tuned tools? Using everything at your disposal would seriously screw up people's chances of figuring out you and when that everything is really good... yeah...

Playing Bowser as Bowser and knowing that in those opportunities where you can use U-throw to setup? Like how DK players who play DK and in those moments use cargo U-throw setups? That's much, much scarier than a turtle dragon and a gorilla flailing their arms around in stupor. That being said, yes, easy and safe things should be used, especially early on when people don't know how to deal with them or when a character's just starting out like at launch or when the DLC characters were released. The problem is not understanding why those setups work, the cookie cutting, the reliance, and the tunnel vision that happens. All of that leads to two things: predictability and failure.
 
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JesterJaded

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Having played the MU as both characters, I want to say it's even overall. On paper, Toon Link's neutral far outclasses Bowser's, and Bowser should in theory be kept out, but Bowser's reward and ability to not die makes it go his way in practice nine times out of ten. You know what, that likely matters more; I'll give it to Bowser, albeit only slightly. Saying "don't f*** up" is easy, but it isn't slightly realistic.

New thread hype! Cool list, kind of a shame it's about to be rendered obsolete. Switch Pika and Meta Knight and we're cool, barring the impossible to gauge group of characters below high tier. Meta Knight is unshakably top 5 in my opinion. Results back it up, too, unlike Pikachu.
Imo, "don't **** up" also applies to Bowser in this matchup, but I'll admit it takes a lot of damage racking to kill him.

It's frustrating because I can't find any footage of Zan or Hyuga against 1.1.3 Bowser, since those are the only Toon Links I trust to play the matchup right, but I can certainly see the matchup being even, if not slight advantage to either character. Just have to wait and see, I guess.
 

ARGHETH

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What results does Robin have? She's my biggest surprise.
33rd at Genesis 3, TBH5, and Paragon LA and Dath doing well in Florida, mainly.
Raziek also took a game off of ZeRo's Sheik and forced a switch to Diddy at TBH5.
 
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