4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List V3

As a fighting game's meta progresses, it is common to see tier lists being formed, often as a reference towards a character's tournament viability. The Smash community has done this for all games, with all of them having regularly updated tier lists.

As a disclaimer, the Smash for Wii U Backroom (4BR) acknowledges the fact that tier lists are not always accurate, and are, more often than not, controversial. However, we do want to study the game at an advanced level, and give our take on the current meta of Smash for Wii U, adding another snapshot to the history of the game.

The Smash community has expanded its horizons in the past few months. Be it through new circuits, more sponsors, more prominent content creators, or simply more competition appearing, the game has continued to evolve, and shows few signs of slowing down. With that forward out of the way, I'm happy to introduce to you the 4BR Official Smash for Wii U Tier List V3.

Procedure
​

After the conclusion of Genesis 4, we asked 4BR members to distribute all characters in the game (with a handful of exceptions) across a number of tiers, with each voter having the ability to choose as many tiers as they wanted, and to order characters in their tiers if they so choose. Players were to assume that the most recent version of the game was being played (Version 1.1.6) and that customs were off. As with previous votes, we reached out to correspondents from outside of the 4BR to give their input and partake in this project.

In regards to characters, the following criteria was specified:

• Dark Pit and Pit were to be treated as a single character. Previous votes showed that a hypermajority of voters would keep them side by side, and, while there are blatant differences between the two characters (as well as a general conception of one of the Pits being superior), the amount of overlap in their kits allows for almost identical usage, something that does not apply to any other character pair in Smash for Wii U.
• Lucina was optional, but was not treated the same as Marth. Due to the low usage of her in tournaments, many voters have stated prior that they don't really know where to place her; rather than have voters "guess", we decided to make her optional. As only 7 did not vote for her, she was placed onto the main tier list.
• Miis were optional, and could be voted on in one of two ways. These reflect the two most common rulings of Mii Fighters seen at tournaments: 1111 Guest Size (using the initial special moves Miis have), and XXXX Guest Size (being able to select any combination of special moves one desires for Miis). At this current time, the 4BR acknowledges the discrepancy in Mii rulings, and, given internal feedback and discussion, we choose to respect both options through this ruling.

For an example, here is my vote. I ordered characters within each tier, and included Lucina.

Spoiler: Example Vote

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

We had voting run until February 20th, the week of Frostbite 2017, meaning that submissions were possible for a little less than a month; please note that Frostbite 2017 is not taken into account as a result. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 45 votes, including 25 US votes, and 20 international votes.

The following people submitted a vote (for those without a Smashboards account, Twitter handles have been listed instead):

Spoiler: List of Voters

@---
@-6WX-
@A10theHero
@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
@Camalange
@Catana
@CHOMPY
@Dabuz
@Darkshad
@DiSQO_BuNNY
@earth_tyt
@erico9001
@Espy Rose
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@FullMoon
@Hikaru
@Illusion.
@istudying
@Jucchan
@Kie
Gunla
@Luco
@M@v
@Marcbri
@Mister Eric
@Mr-R
@Myran
@Ned
@Player-1
@Popi
@qb9b
@Ray_Kalm
@Raziek
@Red Ryu
@SH
@Shaya
@Sin242
@Sinister Slush
@SuperGirlKels
@TheReflexWonder
@Tweek
@vVv Rapture
@vyQ
@Yikarur
@ぱみゅ

As per our tier lists, we will not publicly release individual votes, but voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results​

Thanks to @Shaya, we were able to generate rankings on two factors from the submitted votes: average placements and average groupings (or tiers). In addition, standard deviations for each of these values, and the placement differences from v2 to v3 have been included, with the merging of the Pits' placement accounted for.

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Score | Standard Deviation | Group Score | Group Standard Deviation | Difference from v2.0
Bayonetta | 2.0 | 1.35 | 7.94 | 0.227 | +10
Diddy Kong | 2.3 | 0.991 | 7.95 | 0.211 | -1
Cloud | 3.31 | 1.443 | 7.77 | 0.438 | -1
Sheik | 4.22 | 1.988 | 7.62 | 0.564 | -1
Sonic | 5.63 | 2.257 | 7.35 | 0.608 | +1
Mario | 6.59 | 1.936 | 7.25 | 0.614 | -1
Fox | 7.06 | 1.904 | 7.17 | 0.667 | ±0
Rosalina | 8.61 | 2.635 | 7.01 | 0.678 | -4
Mewtwo | 9.17 | 2.039 | 6.89 | 0.615 | +1
Marth | 9.73 | 2.822 | 6.81 | 0.662 | +9
Zero Suit Samus | 9.86 | 2.099 | 6.74 | 0.594 | -3
Ryu | 12.4 | 2.758 | 6.51 | 0.766 | -3
Corrin | 15.06 | 3.691 | 6.0 | 0.808 | +5
Meta Knight | 15.39 | 3.046 | 5.82 | 0.717 | -1
Pikachu | 17.67 | 4.67 | 5.83 | 0.734 | -3
Mega Man | 17.7 | 4.126 | 5.62 | 0.556 | -1
Villager | 18.2 | 3.22 | 5.66 | 0.609 | -3
Lucina | 18.78 | 5.992 | 5.67 | 0.841 | +18
Lucario | 20.23 | 5.581 | 5.4 | 0.741 | +3
Toon Link | 20.84 | 3.874 | 5.33 | 0.654 | -3
Peach | 22.79 | 4.303 | 5.14 | 0.791 | +5
Greninja | 23.52 | 4.657 | 5.08 | 0.569 | -1
Captain Falcon | 23.61 | 4.608 | 5.11 | 0.801 | -3
Ness | 24.82 | 5.534 | 4.95 | 0.748 | -8
Bowser | 25.0 | 5.46 | 4.87 | 0.807 | +7
Luigi | 25.69 | 5.669 | 4.86 | 0.846 | +3
Olimar | 25.82 | 7.005 | 4.76 | 1.01 | +4
Donkey Kong | 26.63 | 4.32 | 4.71 | 0.644 | -3
Yoshi | 28.26 | 4.968 | 4.6 | 0.891 | -6
Pit [Dark Pit]| 28.69 | 6.021 | 4.52 | 0.825 | -6 [-3]
Lucas | 30.12 | 4.659 | 4.35 | 0.814 | +1
R.O.B. | 30.34 | 4.799 | 4.28 | 0.949 | -5
Robin | 30.64 | 5.555 | 4.22 | 0.782 | -4
Ike | 35.04 | 4.111 | 3.68 | 0.812 | ±0
Wario | 36.77 | 5.097 | 3.62 | 1.004 | -2
Duck Hunt | 37.09 | 6.539 | 3.42 | 0.917 | +5
Shulk | 37.31 | 5.894 | 3.47 | 0.871 | +6
Link | 38.59 | 4.908 | 3.37 | 0.842 | +4
Mr. Game & Watch | 39.18 | 5.54 | 3.29 | 0.972 | -3
Samus | 40.3 | 5.563 | 2.94 | 1.135 | +4
Palutena | 40.64 | 4.971 | 2.94 | 0.837 | -2
Little Mac | 42.0 | 4.461 | 2.87 | 0.911 | -4
Roy | 42.59 | 5.43 | 2.86 | 0.979 | +6
Charizard | 42.87 | 5.45 | 2.84 | 0.994 | +6
Pac-Man | 44.39 | 5.608 | 2.66 | 1.048 | -8
Kirby | 44.51 | 4.777 | 2.65 | 0.989 | -6
Bowser Jr. | 45.51 | 5.31 | 2.5 | 1.094 | -1
Wii Fit Trainer | 45.61 | 4.496 | 2.4 | 0.821 | -3
Falco | 45.68 | 4.059 | 2.39 | 0.829 | -1
Dr. Mario | 47.09 | 4.542 | 2.26 | 0.839 | -3
King Dedede | 50.0 | 2.991 | 1.71 | 0.859 | ±0
Ganondorf | 51.67 | 2.364 | 1.46 | 0.655 | +3
Mii Gunner | 51.75 | 2.537 | 1.69 | 0.533 | -1
Zelda | 51.93 | 2.531 | 1.43 | 0.579 | ±0
Mii Brawler | 52.14 | 3.27 | 1.73 | 1.006 | -2
Mii Swordsman | 52.5 | 5.099 | 1.61 | 0.629 | ±0
Jigglypuff | 53.64 | 1.459 | 1.18 | 0.356 | ±0

A low standard deviation indicates that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), whereas a higher standard deviation indicates disagreement in the character's placement. The top and bottom tiers tend to have lower values of standard deviation, whereas the mid tiers tend to have higher values.

By simultaneously taking order and tiers (or groupings) under the same vote, this allowed us to have a basis for the general order of characters, as well as a baseline to decide our tier separations. While a few instances of grouping caused minimal discrepancies, order was given priority.

We ended up taking a mixture of intervals, gaps and integer scoring to decide cutoffs for each character, based on their group score. Here are the following intervals for each of our tiers, as well as the specific tier classifications:

Spoiler: Intervals

S: 7.94 - 7.62
A: 7.35 - 6.51
B: 6.0 - 5.08
C: 4.95 - 4.52
D: 4.35 - 3.29
E: 2.94 - 2.26
F: 1.71 - 1.18

Top Tier: 7.94 - 6.51 - Tiers S & A
High Tier: 6.0 - 5.08 - Tier B
Mid Tier: 4.95 - 3.29 - Tiers C & D
Low Tier: 2.94 - 1.18 - TIers E & F

The main character affected by this system was Ryu, who was a marginal distance from both ZSS and Corrin. We decided to round him up, finalizing with a total of 7 tiers.

With our methods and data accounted for, we're happy to present to you...

Official 4BR Wii U Tier List V3 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)​

-TOP-
S:
A:
-HIGH-
B:
-MID-
C: ()
D:
-LOW-
E:
F:

Text Version

-TOP-
S: Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Rosalina & Luma, Mewtwo, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, Ryu
-HIGH-
B: Corrin, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Mega Man, Villager, Lucina, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach, Greninja, Captain Falcon
-MID-
C: Ness, Bowser, Luigi, Olimar, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Pit & Dark Pit, Lucas, R.O.B., Robin
D: Ike, Wario, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Link, Mr. Game & Watch
-LOW-
E: Samus, Palutena, Little Mac, Roy, Charizard, Pac-Man, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, Falco, Dr. Mario
F: King Dedede, Ganondorf, Zelda, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version

Addendum​

As noted prior, Lucina and the Mii Fighters were optional votes. Here, we will briefly discuss the results of those 4 characters:

• Lucina: 38 of the 45 voters included Lucina (as a result, she was placed onto the main tier list and the image). She ended up having the 4th highest standard deviation of all characters.

• Miis: 10 of the 45 voters included Miis, of either ruleset. While we did not collect enough data to list XXXX Guest Size Miis, we did collect enough to place 1111 Guest Miis onto the list, resulting in the full list:

Spoiler: Tier List V3 (With Addendum)

-TOP-
S:
A:
-HIGH-
B:
-MID-
C: ()
D:
-LOW-
E:
F:

Conclusions​

The end of Genesis 4 marked the true end of the second year of Smash for Wii U's competitive history, but also the beginning of an exciting new chapter. Bayonetta, Cloud, Sheik and Diddy find themselves at the top 4 slots for this game, and other characters have earned their spot in the top tier, such as Marth, Ryu and Zero Suit Samus. Even high tier characters, including Lucario, Greninja and Mega Man, have been making strong cases for their viability as well. With patches seemingly finished and the potentiality of the Switch affecting Smash for Wii U's meta, there is an interesting air of ambiguity in addition to the growing presence Smash for Wii U has in competitive gaming. The 2017 Summer of Smash is already lining up with many events, and it will surely be filled to the brim with new players, more characters, and more national-level spectacles.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya for processing data and results; Camalange, Marc, Shaya, and Jucchan for assisting with the collection of correspondent votes; and A10theHero for editing. Lastly, I'd like to thank everyone else, including the voters, for their time and input into this project. It was a genuine honor to lead the project alongside Shaya for its third iteration and to work with many people to get this out to the public!

 

I wonder how many people will keep complaining about Lucina because of "results"?
How much more of that am I gonna have to see?

 

I wonder how many people will keep complaining about Lucina because of "results"?
How much more of that am I gonna have to see?

As much to our heart's content.

 

Is bottom 10, I'm actually done.
I mean, most of the voting was already done before Komota beat Ally (#TeamKomota BTW) but even if the upset didn't happen, I would still think Kirby is too low. Maybe people think he's one of those characters that are hard to play and not that good anyways so people rank him bottom 10 (like , , , , , and ) BUT HE'S ACTUALLY SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT!! Like, understand the character before you rank him, Kirby isn't so flawed that his weaknesses can't shine. At least Kirby has a commendable matchup spread against top tiers. Beats , beats with copy ability, beats and , doesn't suck against Cloud. And at least Kirby doesn't have a FATAL flaw that totally outshines his strengths. (His weight honestly isn't that big of a problem, he's heavier than and, and tied with and .) He's light, floaty, and has a small hit box, so literally every character has to adapt to the way he gets comboed, and you can literally get out in like two hits. Neutral game is underrated, f-air and b-air and all his tilts are surprisingly safe, easiest autocanceled with d-air for tomahawks, full jump d-air can get you no lag like Fox'. Recovery is underrated, up-b can sweet spot the ledge so you can't get reverse U-tilted by Fox by the ledge. Landing is mediocre since you have multijumps and a pretty good airdodge, but still underrated. Killpower is super underrated because you can just d-tilt trip to whatever or d-air to whatever or u-throw or b-air.

I guess now since Komota beat Ally people will rank Kirby higher, I think he should at least be D-tier, maybe even C-tier if Kirby keeps showing up, but we'll see.

 

Don't agree with Bayo's placement. Come to think of it, I disagree with a LOT of new placings here.

Say that on Twitter and every top player will disagree with you.

 

Personally, Bayo should be a few places lower (at least below Diddy); Cloud should be top of A-tier at best; and Yoshi and Bowser should be a little higher. All things considered, though, this is the best SSB4 tier list yet.

 

Ah boooo Sonic's above Mario now, its Brawl all over again

 

This proves Pittoo is slot filler, HA HA

 

Bye guys I'll be on eventhubs.

First She also needs to hit a move to start a combo.

Oh darn, I never knew that you had to whiff the move to actually begin the combo. Maybe that's why I don't it out of pools.

For real if that is your part of argument that makes Bayonetta not too 10 I suggest you research a bit more before suggesting something as stupid as saying she has to hit a move to start her combos. If your talking about grab combos, for one you don't need those as Cloud/Marth won Genesis 4 with neither have a true grab combo(could be mistaken)

 

Sonic is top 5 just the way i like it.

 

First of all bayonetta isn't even top 5. Learn the mu. She's light and has a bad neutral game. She also needs to hit a move to start a combo.

Man, if you can start combos without landing a move first, i will actually be impressed.

 

okay sonic is top 5 again no surprise

 

okay sonic is top 5 again no surprise

Actually its the first time he's been top 5

 

First of all bayonetta isn't even top 5. Learn the mu. She's light and has a bad neutral game. She also needs to hit a move to start a combo. Combining this with her bad neutral adds up to a top 15 high tier character.

 

Man, if you can start combos without landing a move first, i will actually be impressed.

Taunt to get bodied is true combo since 64....

 

Taunt to get bodied is true combo since 64....

You aren't wrong.

 

Smashboards showing once again how irrelevant it is to the heart of the community. Worse than the second one for sure

Hello. I'm Eden Rocks. I am brand new to participating in the Smash 4 community, after having lurked for years. I am a high-level casual player, but my goal is really to claim my rightful position as a world-class commentator.

I am rolling in and posting what I feel like saying; forgive me if I do not meet to precise criteria for posting any thread. I am not too proficient with navigating interfaces of websites such as this, mostly because the fingers with I use to type on my old-ass laptop have become a bit gnarled through the years of grasping my walking stick so that I can hobble around and wish it was still the '80's.

Anyway, what we have here (the comment I am replying to), is a pretty transparent and weak attempt to flame the Smashboards community, via the context of participating in the community and spending the time to post a message within it. Besides contradicting your own premise by commenting at all, you offer no analysis to back up your (transparently phony) opinion, nor do you offer any advice whatsoever as to how this website could improve, so that they can become more relevant (in your eyes) to the community as a whole. So, this is the exemplary professional dissection (/smack to the forehead with the tip of my cane) of your useless comment. Why don't you add something to the discussion, kid? Let's be friends.

I hope this was entertaining to read, and again, that it is an appropriate comment to post in this thread. I will be commentating my first tournament this weekend, and will be promoting the link to my product throughout social media. Thank you.

Eden Rocks

 

Zero, the best player in the world, has said several times he thinks bayonetta is the best character in the game, but I'm sure you know much more than him.

Personally, I think it is to Zero's advantage for him to play up a character he never plays (Bayo), and talk about how amazing she is (as he beats her), and play down how good the character he chooses to main actually is.

Do you understand? It's a solid marketing strategy. Do you not think, that in his heart of hearts, he *actually* thinks Diddy Kong is the best character in the game?

Of course he does.

Don't get me wrong, I love Zero's content, and he deserves the ultimate props as being the best player in the world. But, come on. Think about stuff.

 

ShadowGuy1 Armagon JesseMcCloud I know it's fun to take things out of context and mock people for it, but he clearly meant that her bad neutral game balances out her strong advantage state (which isn't even that strong anymore).

 

Between "her" and lucina?

Oh whoops ahah my bad. That's meant to be a "him". Not sure why i put a "her" there instead :/

 

ShadowGuy1 Armagon JesseMcCloud I know it's fun to take things out of context and mock people for it, but he clearly meant that her bad neutral game balances out her strong advantage state (which isn't even that strong anymore).

I mean, I was just pointing out the statement that he said which was completely incorrect.

 

ShadowGuy1 Armagon JesseMcCloud I know it's fun to take things out of context and mock people for it, but he clearly meant that her bad neutral game balances out her strong advantage state (which isn't even that strong anymore).

And Sheik's bad killing power always perfectly balanced her strong neutral game, amirite bois?

 

Don't really know if Bayo is top of top tier because 8 outta 10 I beat her down even when I use my secondary Shulk (no arts) and when she gets a check up from my pocket (Dr Mario). Also, still right after Diddy!! I'd switch around Cloud & Diddy!!

 

Don't really know if Bayo is top of top tier because 8 outta 10 I beat her down even when I use my secondary Shulk (no arts) and when she gets a check up from my pocket (Dr Mario). Also, still right after Diddy!! I'd switch around Cloud & Diddy!!

I, too, play FG.

 

Remember this is based off top level play everyone, youll eventually run into every character and beat them even with a decent player behind the screen. And even so For Glory has input lag which makes certain things work differently as you were playing live, the chances of running into a high level tournament player is pretty low especially along the likes of Zero, Ally, MKLeo, Mr R, etc. levels of play and consistency.

 

Bayo is not the best.

 

I personally wreck DDDs and Ganons with Zelda, but I guess that probably doesn't make up for her MUs on the rest of the cast

 

Only problems I have with the tier list is little Mac and ganon should be higher

 

Is it really that hard to avoid getting Witch Timed? Just (power)shield, grab , and you're fine.

 

Hello. I'm Eden Rocks. I am brand new to participating in the Smash 4 community, after having lurked for years. I am a high-level casual player, but my goal is really to claim my rightful position as a world-class commentator.

I am rolling in and posting what I feel like saying; forgive me if I do not meet to precise criteria for posting any thread. I am not too proficient with navigating interfaces of websites such as this, mostly because the fingers with I use to type on my old-*** laptop have become a bit gnarled through the years of grasping my walking stick so that I can hobble around and wish it was still the '80's.

Anyway, what we have here (the comment I am replying to), is a pretty transparent and weak attempt to flame the Smashboards community, via the context of participating in the community and spending the time to post a message within it. Besides contradicting your own premise by commenting at all, you offer no analysis to back up your (transparently phony) opinion, nor do you offer any advice whatsoever as to how this website could improve, so that they can become more relevant (in your eyes) to the community as a whole. So, this is the exemplary professional dissection (/smack to the forehead with the tip of my cane) of your useless comment. Why don't you add something to the discussion, kid? Let's be friends.

I hope this was entertaining to read, and again, that it is an appropriate comment to post in this thread. I will be commentating my first tournament this weekend, and will be promoting the link to my product throughout social media. Thank you.

Eden Rocks

I don't know where you've been lurking but you're obviously inexperienced around Smashboards. Well alow me to fill in some gaps; the common Smash player has a generally filtered view of Smashboards. The heart of the Smash community lives around in-person tournaments. From their, the next best spot is usually Smashcords. Few use Smashboards as their primary Smash- social scene and even fewer stay. A good majority of us lurk and come alive again to complain about tier lists or speculate if a new Smash game is on the horizon. Im not "flaming" anyone; Im being brutally honest about how I see Smashboards and the new tier list. (Oh yeah, we also live on twitter).


And to answer your...question... no, this isn't the place to advertise, introduce your irl self. There's other threads for that in the Social section.

Your calling it a "weak attempt" with no analysis... again, there's a thread for that in the Competitive section. This is a news thread primarily for reactions about the news. Analysis can go in the larger competitive thread.

 

Is it really that hard to avoid getting Witch Timed? Just (power)shield, grab , and you're fine.

I guess that strategy works on lv. 1 CPUs....

 

I still dont get how Pac-Man is now bottom 10. Is there not enough representation or something?

 

Is Pac-Man really that bad or does nobody play him?

He's not really that bad as i believe he has a lot of potential but he's rarely used as you said. Him being bottom 10 doesn't sit right though

 

Abadango used to use him and did decent hes mid low at least, the one defining thing holding back is his slow and janky grab, props to the game designers on making it look Galaga ish but it doesnt do much justice when its literally one of the worst grabs ever. Shielding and grabbing is pretty effective in Smash 4 and also running up grabbing quickly with mix ups and it greatly hurts PacMans potential overall. Plus another thing is his Smash attacks are quite underwhelming and side smash can even pass right through if the opponent is directly in front of you.

 

So just a couple more things I wanna point out. This is my opinion and I'm not saying this tier list is wrong. I feel like Roy should be mid tier at the very least. Hell, the best player in the world, ZeRo, says Roy is a high tier character. Dr. Mario imo should be worst in mid tier or maybe a little higher. He's literally a slower, but stronger version of regular Mario with a slightly inferior combo game, but more reliable ways to end the stock. Link should move up a tier. Ike can also move up about 5-10 spots at max, Shulk can move up a bit, Lucina shouldn't be that high. As much as I love Corrin to death, he/she is just too high for a character with fewer results than half the low tiers. Same goes for Ryu, but he's been showing up more recently since Trela's back now. Mac is low mid imo. Cloud is def not top 3. Even though I secondary him and feel he's top tier, I'd put him more around 5th/6th place at max tbh. I feel like Rosa is to 5. Luigi is WAT too low, and last but not least, Falco>Pac Man imo tbh.

 

Still funny seeing sonic, Mario and fox always next to each other like its funny. Still happy sonic is in top 5. Bayonetta should be lower tho and glad lucina and link bumped up. I'm still bummed out about falco as if they said: "falco? He still sucks".

 

One interesting thing about Falco is that he seems to be even if not have a slight advantage on the Sonic MU since its difficult for Sonic to approach since he can laser and throw his reflector and possibly trip him. I seem to have no trouble with Sonic with Falco when they end up close to beating me with other characters that are even close to top tier status and not only that Keitaro has beaten Seagull Joe before which is very convincing that Falco has more of a underdeveloped look at what hes capable of. Yes its odvious that Fox is superior just like how Roy is overshadowed by Marth and Doc with Mario but they all are a lot closer than people dismiss them since most people go for the one that seems to get better results.

 

is there a tier list contaning miis as XXXX and guest size? Only 1111 guess size is here so i'm curious of the other positions.

 

One interesting thing about Falco is that he seems to be even if not have a slight advantage on the Sonic MU since its difficult for Sonic to approach since he can laser and throw his reflector and possibly trip him. I seem to have no trouble with Sonic with Falco when they end up close to beating me with other characters that are even close to top tier status and not only that Keitaro has beaten Seagull Joe before which is very convincing that Falco has more of a underdeveloped look at what hes capable of. Yes its odvious that Fox is superior just like how Roy is overshadowed by Marth and Doc with Mario but they all are a lot closer than people dismiss them since most people go for the one that seems to get better results.

wrecks . Laser and reflector are absolutely useless against . I lost once having never fought against a good in my life. is terrible, but he has a good Bair.

 

to me a tier list more represents what characters are used most in competitive play...particularly by elite players.

i don't think you can give absolute tiers solely based on frames, hitboxes, etc. in the end- the player is the one who wins, not the character.

 

Ahhh I was hoping would make at least B tier. Maybe next time.